question on bulking and fat.

d'Oracle · 20-10-2009 03:29PM

cmyk wrote: »

As someone who is also trying to add a few kg's on a pretty clean diet, no one here has put forward arguments against the article posted.

I'm not a powerlifter, and don't intend to be, I want a healthy allround balanced lifestyle, with a good degree of fitness/lifts etc. From reading that article it makes sense to me,

Do you want to be a bodybuilder?

cmyk · 20-10-2009 03:47PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Do you want to be a bodybuilder?

Nope?

d'Oracle · 20-10-2009 03:51PM

Ok.

Just wondering why you brought up the "I don't wanna be a powerlifter," then talk about the sense made in an article which is clearly coming from a bodybuilding point of view.

Bit OT.

cmyk · 20-10-2009 04:09PM

Well I guess it depends on the context then. I have training goals in terms of adding a few kgs and lifting targets I'd like to achieve (which makes the article applicable to me), does this make me a bodybuilder due to the fact I want to add some muscle? I don't know.

I answered no because I don't and will not be competing in bodybuilding competitions, nor is weightlifting my sole focus, I do other sports and I'd like to hit some crossfit targets etc.

The reason I stated that my focus was not on powerlifting was that (from what I've read and seen) powerlifters are not concerned with bodyfat levels to the same degree as bodybuilders. A certain amount of extra bodyweight helps to move more weight on the bar type thing.

Roper · 20-10-2009 04:09PM

Why is it when I stick to my guns, I'm a smartass?

I don't expect to be considered an expert or for my arguments to be weighted any higher than others, but I do expect that when I put forward arguments, people remain polite.

Firstly I have several qualifications, detailed on this forum in the past. But I think it should also be noted that I stand on the shoulders of giants with my arguments, they're not opinions in the truest sense. I also work with daily with a giant in the field, and I'm not ashamed to pick his brains and say that I stand on his shoulders also.

I'm also going to point out that I am a smart ass. But I don't call people names, and if I do, it's the exact name I'd call you to your face. I somehow can't imagine The Entrepenuer dropping by and calling me fat

d'Oracle · 20-10-2009 04:30PM

Roper wrote: »

Why is it when I stick to my guns, I'm a smartass?

Cos you are a smartass the rest of the time?

I meant that in the nicest possibly way.

I don't see why you need to be defensive though.
I'm sure it won't adversely affect your life or work or success if People like TheEntrepreneur (or me) don't want listen.

Roper · 20-10-2009 04:34PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Cos you are a smartass the rest of the time?
I meant that in the nicest possibly way.

I don't see why you need to be defensive though.
I'm sure it won't adversely affect your life or work or success if People like TheEntrepreneur (or me) don't want listen.

True, but I can't just let people spout rubbish. It's in my nature. There are lots of things I know nothing about but I call on the experts instead of formulating some random opinion based on an internet article.

itsallaboutheL · 20-10-2009 04:35PM

d'Oracle wrote: »

Cos you are a smartass the rest of the time?
I meant that in the nicest possibly way.

I don't see why you need to be defensive though.
I'm sure it won't adversely affect your life or work or success if People like TheEntrepreneur (or me) don't want listen.

i can't understand why you don't want to listen to him, you're always citing this and that article but such and such a coach but won't even consider opinions voiced by roper?

i don't get it

20-10-2009 04:36PM

Roper wrote: »

I'm also going to point out that I am a smart ass. But I don't call people names, and if I do, it's the exact name I'd call you to your face. I somehow can't imagine The Entrepenuer dropping by and calling me fat

Look I just stated a fact. You're 15% bodyfat and proud of that. Oh by the way, why is it that you think you would say it other peoples faces but I wouldn't ? Oh that's right, that's the arrogance shining through again. It's ok to have an ego mate, I have one. Just don't let it get in the way of reasoning.

Since when is that calling you fat ? You don't know me Roper, I'm as bloody honest on this thing as I am in real life which is why I'd have no problem saying that to your face if we had the same discussions.

The guy who wrote that article is more of an expert than your average joe. I'd take his advice any day of the week. Don't say I don't know what I'm talking about just because you disagree with me. And I also apologise for losing my cool at you but I'd be the exact same in real life.

Roper · 20-10-2009 04:42PM

That is NOT a peer reviewed article. It's not science and it's not fact. Him selling himself as an expert doesn't make what he writes true.

d'Oracle · 20-10-2009 04:43PM

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

i can't understand why you don't want to listen to him, you're always citing this and that article but such and such a coach but won't even consider opinions voiced by roper?

i don't get it

Are you mixing me up with someone else?

I listen to roper. (at least I do now)
I'm quite sure he has the experience and credentials to back anything he says up.
I also don't think I cite much, apart from starting strength.

Inspector Coptoor · 20-10-2009 04:45PM

Roper wrote: »

That is NOT a peer reviewed article. It's not science and it's not fact. Him selling himself as an expert doesn't make what he writes true.

Exactly.

cmyk · 20-10-2009 04:45PM

Roper wrote: »

True, but I can't just let people spout rubbish. It's in my nature. There are lots of things I know nothing about but I call on the experts instead of formulating some random opinion based on an internet article.

Anyone reading the article was asking for just that? Your Objective reasons why the article was a farce or otherwise. I'll bow down to anyone's knowledge working fulltime or otherwise in the fitness industry...like yourself. Logical people can only read the information for and against and make an informed decision based on that.

Just as in any industry/trade (mine happens to be web design) if someone asked me to appraise their website, I can't just turn around to them and say it's s**t.

Roper · 20-10-2009 04:56PM

cmyk wrote: »

Anyone reading the article was asking for just that? Your Objective reasons why the article was a farce or otherwise. I'll bow down to anyone's knowledge working fulltime or otherwise in the fitness industry...like yourself. Logical people can only read the information for and against and make an informed decision based on that.

Just as in any industry/trade (mine happens to be web design) if someone asked me to appraise their website, I can't just turn around to them and say it's s**t.

I'm actually on my way out the door (I've been in bed sick all day, hence the many posts

) to pick up a guest to our fair isle so I don't have much time to respond in detail. Suffice to say much of what he has to say is not backed up by experience or science. What he says isn't necessarily false, but phrased in a way to suit his ends. There's a lot of misapropriation of information.

I also didn't just say "it's ****" that was kevpants I gave some brief reasons a while back, but my main issue was people who take what he says as gospel because he's web famous and it fits their view.

Anyway, given that the internet is now the most prevalent source of information on the planet, and that almost none of it is factually checked for truth by peers or even just joe soap, I would say that the best tactic would be skepticism of the highest order when reading anything not published and reviewed. Training ideas especially since everyone is trying to sell you the get fit get lean get strong plan.

Roper · 20-10-2009 05:03PM

cmyk wrote: »

Well if you're going to make a sweeping statement like that then at the other end of the scale is the person on a bulk who makes the case for not ever passing the doors of a mcdonalds.

I should point out that was a joke.

cmyk · 20-10-2009 05:04PM

Roper wrote: »

I'm actually on my way out the door (I've been in bed sick all day, hence the many posts ) to pick up a guest to our fair isle so I don't have much time to respond in detail. Suffice to say much of what he has to say is not backed up by experience or science. What he says isn't necessarily false, but phrased in a way to suit his ends. There's a lot of misapropriation of information.

I also didn't just say "it's ****" that was kevpants I gave some brief reasons a while back, but my main issue was people who take what he says as gospel because he's web famous and it fits their view.

Anyway, given that the internet is now the most prevalent source of information on the planet, and that almost none of it is factually checked for truth by peers or even just joe soap, I would say that the best tactic would be skepticism of the highest order when reading anything not published and reviewed. Training ideas especially since everyone is trying to sell you the get fit get lean get strong plan.

Yep sorry about that, that wasn't directed directly at you, and I wasn't going to trawl back through it to quote everyone. I had read it initially with skepticism, but then equated some of it with other posts/blogs that I'd read, including as I said earlier, similar information in the stickies here.

I haven't had time myself this afternoon to have a look around his site for other evidence that might sway me one way or another, but I'll look at his vids etc. this evening.

cmyk · 20-10-2009 05:06PM

Roper wrote: »

I should point out that was a joke.

As I'm sure was kevpants reference to boxercise and brocolli

20-10-2009 05:20PM

Roper wrote: »

That is NOT a peer reviewed article. It's not science and it's not fact. Him selling himself as an expert doesn't make what he writes true.

Yes Roper that's business isn't it "An expert is someone who knows more than the people they are selling to" ? But the irony of that is have you ever written peer reviewed articles or books so why be so bloody opinionated about what is rubbish and what is not ? This is a message board about opinion and "what works for you". Some people look great on carbs, others don't. Just because something works for you or other people, doesn't mean it will work for others and vica versa and this whole approach of eating all in sight, getting big and strong is something that I would not agree with as a basic fundamental of fitness but that's just an opinion and yes I know some people "eat all in sight" and gorge on healthy food and gain lbs of muscle overnight but for most people, I don't see how that would make sense particularly in a culture i.e. Ireland where most people are overweight anyway and not in a good way from lbs of muscle, quite the opposite in fact. I don't need to be an expert to be able to say that, I just read the paper and look around.

But that's not a bad thing, I'm not disputing you are knowledgable. I'm just saying in a nutshell, don't say I know nothing because I agree with another persons opinion, bite your tongue, just stop it.

hardtrainer · 21-10-2009 12:40AM

So here's my €0.02

Guys who juice (especially the guys who are really serious about their training and not the ones just looking to get 'built and shredded' in 6 weeks!) have usually been training hard for many years as natural BB and who at some point want to get past their natural limits. Ignore their advice at your peril.

In saying that, its always good to step back and consider any one persons advice based on how they've come to those conclusions and significantly, what if anything they have to gain from spreading their own brand of advice. And let us be in no doubt that in the fitness world, everyone is working for their own personal brand. Endorsements = income. (yes, I am a sceptic!)

I agree that there are limits to the amounts of nutrients that our bodies can utilize at any one time. Thats part of the reason people advocate a steady intake of food over 6 smaller meals per day. But the issue I have with online fitness gurus telling people that a very simple cornerstone of building muscle over the centuries (and it is centuries) is just tradition and doesn't have any value is that these same gurus are the ones promoting this that and the other herbal pill to increase testosterone or to 'push your natural limits' etc etc etc. Can anyone on this forum who has added significant weight managed to do that without eating a hell of a lot of food, but by taking a myriad pills to trick the bodies natural limits? I be confident that the answer to that is no.

The second issue I have with the article is that the author somewhat dismisses one of the most important factors that limits muscle gain. Calories! The body doesn't want to add any more muscle than your diet can support with ease. And muscle is expensive in energy terms. If someone is training hard and not getting bigger it's a safe bet they are not eating enough. This isn't a big secret, skinnier guys just continually underestimate how much food they really need to grow.

The author of that article is right in one thing he says. It's not simply a case that the more you eat the bigger you get. Nobody here is saying that. But in the case of the OP and others who have said they need to but are having trouble adding the kgs, eating more will get results.

A little OT, but just in relation to that article and the many more like it online:
As someone already mentioned (sorry I can't remember who did) the kind of science in that article is akin to the stuff of L'oreal etc. The kind of pseudoscience that is easy to understand, that seems to make sense and that comes from hundreds of millions of euro worth of clever marketing to appeal to (and to resonate with) a scientifically illiterate public. It's the very same kind of marketing that has people forking over billions for vitamins and minerals that they don't need. The same stuff that has people paying too much money for hi-tech sounding whey proteins and "the same ingredients that have created such a buzz with bodybuilders in the USA". There is a very powerful industry that relies on the publics belief that the secret to the body they want (regardless of what that body may be) is in the pill they produce...from an ancient recipe, from a mystical muscled/thin/beautiful/well-endowed (delete as appropriate) civilisation in a far away place. If you look about online you can find all the different extracts (there are hundreds) that have been "all the rage" with various groups and fitness gurus over the last few years.
Those extracts that have any credible effect (as shown through peer-reviewed publications in respected international journals) are quickly banned from sale in healthfood/sports nutrition shops. There are VERY good reasons to ban their sale too, but thats a matter for another thread.

kevpants · 21-10-2009 10:02AM

Well said hardtrainer.

Reading this thread it really strikes me how people who are skinny and weak and looking to change that can still constantly justify their lack of food by saying it's "healthy".

There is a big distinction between the obesity problem in Ireland and someone who is genuinely busting their ass i the gym and not eating enough.

People who bust their ass in the gym should not eat the diet recommended to sedentary overweight people nor should sedentary overweight people eat the diet of someone busting their ass in the gym.

Everyone has been duped into believing if they get enough protein then they can just eat steamed veg on top of that and they'll gain muscle. You won't! It's not about protein it's about calories!

Having slabs of muscle and being strong whilst having single digit bodyfat is a very difficult thing to achieve because it's pretty unnatural. How you can believe the theory of "lean gains" and anyone saying that is the optimal way to get stronger is just beyond me.

Brian? · 21-10-2009 11:05AM

kevpants wrote: »

Well said hardtrainer.

Reading this thread it really strikes me how people who are skinny and weak and looking to change that can still constantly justify their lack of food by saying it's "healthy".

There is a big distinction between the obesity problem in Ireland and someone who is genuinely busting their ass i the gym and not eating enough.

People who bust their ass in the gym should not eat the diet recommended to sedentary overweight people nor should sedentary overweight people eat the diet of someone busting their ass in the gym.

Everyone has been duped into believing if they get enough protein then they can just eat steamed veg on top of that and they'll gain muscle. You won't! It's not about protein it's about calories!

Having slabs of muscle and being strong whilst having single digit bodyfat is a very difficult thing to achieve because it's pretty unnatural. How you can believe the theory of "lean gains" and anyone saying that is the optimal way to get stronger is just beyond me.

Kev, I agree with almost all of what you said, but I think its about protein and calories. If you look at the diets most people post up for critique, the vast majority are too low in protein.

Thats the only problem I have with the "seefood" way of gaining weight, most people don't eat a high enough % protein in their diet to begin with so they need to be told first and foremost to eat more protein, if thats not adding mass then eat more fat and carbs, but protein first.

Roper · 21-10-2009 02:21PM

So what I get from this so far is:

Science and expertise and all that is grand but as along as you have a "feeling" that something is right, then you should just go with that.

I didn't say the L'Oreal thing but I wish I had, it's witty and true, just like me. I saw a marvellous one on the telly the other night for a face cream that "remineralises" your face. Sounds perfectly great until you ask what it means and understand that it's essentially nothing. It's the same thing with Thibadeau's article. Plenty of science to blind you but no actual proof that any of what he is saying is true. All he's doing is selling to the market that's going to make him money- the ones that buy Men's Health for the "AWESOME ABS" headline.

Imagine if someone realeased a product tomorrow that said "Get larger and more muscular in months, and all you have to do is temporarily put up with a few kgs in bodyfat". It simply wouldn't sell.

But the irony of that is have you ever written peer reviewed articles or books so why be so bloody opinionated about what is rubbish and what is not ?

Yes, how ironic. Like when a clown dies.

cmyk · 21-10-2009 03:02PM

It's not that I'm getting a feeling it's right, it's basically that I'm cross referencing his article with other blogs/sites/fitness advice.

I think we can all agree that there must be a tipping point at which the body can only manufacture x amount of muscle no matter how many calories, and in what ratios they are delivered?

And this is what I have a problem understanding, surely the calories used to get to that point are best served in more natural foods, ie peanut butter vs white carbs? and why does this have to be such a huge excess in calories? I'm not arguing that you can add muscle without fat, but it does make sense that by monitoring progress you should be able to limit that amount? Maybe I'm genuinely missing something regarding the calories needed?

On a vaguely similar topic I'm following will heffernans blog and indeed was diving in and out of his old one too. It's interesting to follow his own training and nutrition too. It'll be interesting to see how his diet changes to make the last bit of his cut.

21-10-2009 03:37PM

I think the main problem in this thread is that we all have completely different goals and completely different opinions about how we will reach those goals.

d'Oracle · 21-10-2009 03:38PM

Who says there is a problem.
This is a great read.

Magic Eight Ball · 21-10-2009 03:49PM

kevpants wrote: »

Everyone has been duped into believing if they get enough protein then they can just eat steamed veg on top of that and they'll gain muscle.

I’ll admit this has been my way of thinking for the last few months and it hasn’t worked.
At first I figured it was probably because I was doing 2 days of cardio on top of my 3 weight days, so I dropped the cardio and increased my calorie intake with more green veg and protein and I still haven’t made any significant gains.

I wouldn’t mind, but I bust my ass in the gym day after day, the weight is steadily increasing on the bar and I am getting stronger but the same old skinny me is staring back in the mirror.

I think I need to ask myself how serious I am about putting on size and sacrifice my low body fat % for a few weeks/months, because nothing else seems to be working.

This is from T-muscle, found it today.
http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/37_tips_and_tales_from_dave_tate#

Here's a quick story.

There was a time at the Old Westside gym where I couldn't gain weight to save my ****ing life.

There was this dude who trained there who could just put on weight like ****ing magic. He'd go from 198 to 308 and then to 275 and back down to 198. And he was never fat. It was amazing.

I finally asked him one day how he did it.

"You mean I never told you the secret to gaining weight? Come outside and I'll fill you in."

Now remember, we're at Westside Barbell. And this guy wants to go outside to talk so no one else can hear. Think about that for a minute. What the hell is he going to tell me? This must be some serious **** if we have to go outside, I thought.

So we get outside and he starts talking.

"For breakfast you need to eat four of those breakfast sandwiches from McDonalds. I don't care which ones you get, but make sure to get four. Order four hash browns, too. Now grab two packs of mayonnaise and put them on the hash browns and then slip them into the sandwiches. Squish that **** down and eat. That's your breakfast."

At this point I'm thinking this guy is nuts. But he's completely serious.

"For lunch you're gonna eat Chinese food. Now I don't want you eating that crappy stuff. You wanna get the stuff with MSG. None of that non-MSG bull****. I don't care what you eat but you have to sit down and eat for at least 45 minutes straight. You can't let go of the fork. Eat until your eyes swell up and become slits and you start to look like the woman behind the counter."

"For dinner you're gonna order an extra-large pizza with everything on it. Literally everything. If you don't like sardines, don't put 'em on, but anything else that you like you have to load it on there. After you pay the delivery guy, I want you to take the pie to your coffee table, open that ****er up, and grab a bottle of oil. It can be olive oil, canola oil, whatever. Anything but motor oil. And I want you to pour that **** over the pie until half of the bottle is gone. Just soak the **** out of it."

"Now before you lay into it, I want you to sit on your couch and just stare at that ****er. I want you to understand that that pizza right there is keeping you from your goals."

This guy is in a zen-like state when he's talking about this.

"Now you're on the clock," he continues. "After 20 minutes your brain is going to tell you you're full. Don't listen to that ****. You have to try and eat as much of the pizza as you can before that 20-minute mark. Double up pieces if you have to. I'm telling you now, you're going to get three or four pieces in and you're gonna want to quit. You ****ing can't quit. You have to sit on that couch until every piece is done.

And if you can't finish it, don't you ever come back to me and tell me you can't gain weight. 'Cause I'm gonna tell you that you don't give a **** about getting bigger and you don't care how much you lift!"

Did I do it? Hell yeah. Started the next day and did it for two months. Went from 260 pounds to 297 pounds. And I didn't get much fatter. One of the hardest things I've ever done in my life, though.

I wish I could put mass on with a 'clean bulk' and keep my BF as low as it is but I guess the reality is something different.

The above article doesn't sound so crazy anymore..

g'em · 21-10-2009 03:51PM

cmyk wrote: »

I think we can all agree that there must be a tipping point at which the body can only manufacture x amount of muscle no matter how many calories, and in what ratios they are delivered?

It's more won't than can't. Your body is self-limiting with regards to muscle growth, mostly because (as hardtrainer pointed out) msucle is such an expensive body tissue. It's difficult to thermoregulate, it incurrs a decreased mechanical efficency and you almsot certainly have a genetic cap on what volume of muscle you can grow thanks to your myostatin expression levels.

So personally, I'm of the opinion that every individual has an upper limit of muscle growth potential. You just can't keep growing, no matter how much you eat. However, that upper limit is probably beyond what most people imagine it to be, but to get there requires damn hard work and dedication (as discussed by hardtrainer and kevpants). As has been said, it takes a lot of eating. The quality of that eating is, I think, what is somewhat in dispute here.

I, again personally, have issues with the seafood diet. There is an impact of food quality on muscle growth. Feed yoruself with simple sugars all day and, after an intial boost of muscle growth thanks to increased uplaoding of glucose into the cells, all you'll end up with is gross insulin resitance. The insulin spike needed to fully reload cells after a workout can easily be gained with moderate amounts of protein and carbs. Protein is also a factor because increased protein consumption promotes anabolism.

Having said that I would also agree that, if size is your primary objective, you aren't doing yourself any favours by being very conservative with your calories. You do need to eat, but, imho, you're better off served serving yourself with foods that will promote slow and steady growth (lots of meat, eggs, dairy, complex carbs, and green veg/fruit for fibre to help it all... em... 'travel' properly

)

21-10-2009 04:02PM

g'em wrote: »

You do need to eat, but, imho, you're better off served serving yourself with foods that will promote slow and steady growth (lots of meat, eggs, dairy, complex carbs, and green veg/fruit for fibre to help it all... em... 'travel' properly )

I'm a fan of this method. It fits with my "world view"

cmyk · 21-10-2009 04:07PM

g'em wrote: »

There is an impact of food quality on muscle growth.

Effectively this is what I was trying to say all the way through, so maybe I haven't articulated it that well. I've also assumed hard trainingX3 times per week was a given. I know calorific surplus is needed, but am debating the quality of that surplus and by how much the 'overshoot' needs to be if you like.

Roper · 21-10-2009 04:11PM

Good and proper foods might seem like the way to go but they simpy won't reticulate the MGRM factors like high insulin foods do. If you disembigulate over the short term you're bound to find that your ICG levels flatline after a period longer then the 16 day window for high rebate returns.

Or...
Eat big to get big, eat small to get thinner.

question on bulking and fat.

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