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Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

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  • #272
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    RedPlanet wrote: »
    But what's so good about this?
    Your side have not articulated why it's necessary to continue to prop-up the language.

    Well assuming people do want the language preserved (as the evidence overwhelmingly suggests) then we have to look at it in a rational way. Before the OLA the government was effectively forcing people to speak English, as it is it is far far far far easier to use English with the public service.
    Is the provision of services through Irish truly propping the language, or is it providing the opportunity to use the language?


  • #273
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I said it has been declining for decades, that much is not in dispute by anyone. Whether it has suddenly received a recent and sustainable revival is another matter, and highly debatable.

    Preservation of the language is a good thing - but not at any cost and not when it becomes futile.

    That is the problem with nationalism and romanticism - it does not count the cost of what it seeks to achieve. That is for the poor smucks who did not sacrifice themselves at the alter of the Fatherland to pay.

    Please don't be so dismissive.

    And who will pay the salaries of these employees? Unless you expect the tax payer to foot the bill for a continuation of the culture of "jobs for the buachaill", it will have to be funded by market forces - which, if you return to the first post in this thread, are unlikely to make a profit.

    Apologies if it came off so, however a large amount of the debate is far from constructive, and this is the case in general. You have some good points, but it is clear that you deem money to be far far more important.
    I agree that it is important, however I also feel that it is (in a broader sense) spent on something worthwhile

    My last point was meant as a general point - not aiming itself at setting up a dole for Irish speakers. Now, as for your market forces point, if Irish Language enthusiasts organised themselves properly to be a consumer group, they could easily pressure business's to provide services through Irish - unlikely to happen.
    But the thought that there isn't a consumer demand for Irish is false - look at the success of Gaeltachts around the country. And to be fair subsidisation will be needed for business run through Irish to counteract the fact that the state has created a situation where it is more expensive to work through Irish.


  • #274
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    fischer wrote: »
    S'funny - I dislike Irish intensely. I think its a nasty, guttural sounding language and I want nothing to do with it. If it vanished tomorrow, I'd be mildly pleased.

    French, Arabic, Welsh, Armenian, Danish, Hebrew, Scots, Afrikaans, Dutch, German, Portuguese, Somali, Spanish and Yiddish all contain sounds that come from the back of the throat (guttural) as well as some Northern English dialects.

    Do you also consider these nasty and have nothing to do with them? Yet Another argument from the anti-Irish side whose origin is petty irrational prejudice.


  • #275
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #276
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    But the thought that there isn't a consumer demand for Irish is false - look at the success of Gaeltachts around the country.
    It is an artificially generated demand though. Irish in school, when I did my LC, was not only obligatory but also afforded people bonus marks if you did your papers in Irish. Additionally it was necessary to get into an NUI college.

    Not as bad as in my mother's day when failing Irish meant you failed your LC, but you get the picture - demand generated by regulation, not actual demand, which other than being false has actually backfired in that it has made it a hated subject for many in school, which we can see here follows thereafter.
    And to be fair subsidisation will be needed for business run through Irish to counteract the fact that the state has created a situation where it is more expensive to work through Irish.
    How so?


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  • #277
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    It's not. Actually, no one has taken 'hits' seriously as a measure of Internet traffic for around ten years. The reason is that a 'hit' can simply be measured as the number of calls to a server - not only for the HTML page, but every image, every script, every flash file that comprises the page.

    Simply accessing the home page of gaelport.com you actually carry out 28 'hits', so the figure of 2,740 per day actually can easily translate to only the home page being called 100 times a day - including visits by search engine bots. Not very impressive.


  • #278
    po0k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,817 ✭✭✭✭po0k


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    It is an artificially generated demand though. Irish in school, when I did my LC, was not only obligatory but also afforded people bonus marks if you did your papers in Irish.
    That's nolonger the case.
    Additionally it was necessary to get into an NUI college.
    As it should. National University of Ireland as opposed to Queens University.
    A 3rd language is also a requirement I believe?
    Not as bad as in my mother's day when failing Irish meant you failed your LC, but you get the picture
    That's still the case (was when I sat it) - just like failing English, Maths or your 3rd language. You should be competent.
    - demand generated by regulation, not actual demand, which other than being false has actually backfired in that it has made it a hated subject for many in school, which we can see here follows thereafter.
    That's a big jump to suggest there's no actual demand.
    I would agree that it becomes hated, but rather due to poor teaching methods caused instutional 'by rote' teaching overseen by the Church.
    It is self-perpetuating as long as it's viewed as a negative.

    'Course, if you are jumping onto an emmigration ship, I can see how it could be viewed as 'useless' when you're going to be building railroads across a continent....


  • #279
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    It is an artificially generated demand though. Irish in school, when I did my LC, was not only obligatory but also afforded people bonus marks if you did your papers in Irish. Additionally it was necessary to get into an NUI college.

    Not as much as you might think. That doesn't explain why students attend the Gaeltacht despite being exempt from Irish, or even students from Gaelscoils attend the Gaeltacht. I'm not going to say that thousands don't go for those reasons, but I am saying that thousands more go for the language - even though there are alternatives available through English
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    How so?

    How not? Despite the OLA I still go onto public service websites, and in general use the English version, why - because the translation tends to be incomplete, and lacks the up to date information that normally has me on the sites in the first place. The same goes for ringing up, chances are they won't understand Irish, cue them leaving you on hold while the find the token Gaelgeoir, wasting your time. Also it is in a catch 22 situation where 99% of other business's have no facilities for the Irish language.


  • #280
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,000 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Aard wrote: »
    I can speak Irish fluently. I'm not from a Gaeltacht, nor have I ever spoken the language while visiting one. I went to a naíonra, a gaelscoil, and a gaelcholáiste. I read the occasional Irish newspaper or Wikipedia article - hell I've even written a few! However, I do believe that too much money is pumped into the wrong areas that claim to aid the rejuvenation of Irish. Translations, interpreters, road-signage, etc.

    Instead of starting from the top down, why not start from the bottom up? Why not subsidise a grocery-store where everything is labelled in Irish, and the staff speak Irish? Why not offer free Irish classes to people outside the Gaeltachts? Why not get rid of mandatory Irish in the LC, and make it so that the people who actually want to study it can do so to a higher level?

    There are so many things that could be done. The top-down approach is lead-by-example in nature - and what examples do we have? The odd ceremonial cúpla focal in the Dáil? Please. Until kids see that it's a useful language, they're not going to bother learning it. There needs to be a community made (outside the Gaeltacht mind) before any money goes to the frivolities - e.g. translations of Development Plans that nobody reads.

    Now don't get me wrong, all you Gaelgóirí, I'm all for more people using the language, and for the rights of those who already speak it. What you must understand, though, is that a lot of non-Irish speakers resent subsidising things that they don't see as worthwhile. Until they realise that they can be part of the community too, they have the upper-hand, as Irish-speakers are in the vast minority. This sounds counter-productive, but you have to win them over. And winning them over entails cutting down on useless translating. I'm sure they would have no problem if all the translating money was spent on free language-classes, or other community service. Just as long as it wouldn't be seen as being wasted.
    Top post. Simply divert this nonsensical spending in obscure government departments and on obscure and never-read document translation and run free irish courses instead. I said it at the start-if Irish is to succeed it needs to be spoken more widely first and foremost. You simply can't 'jump start' a language like a flat battery. I actually do think it would be kind of cool if everyone in Ireland spoke irish (not to the detriment of English which is more important economically of course). I just think this silly waste of money should be halted and diverted to real initiatives that work. In a generation you could halt all special funding when the language is spoken sufficiently widely for it to thrive without support. If no (measurable) inroads are made with funding going directly to useful language initiatives after a defined period then all funding should be cut and the language left to fend for itself.:)


  • #281
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    It's not. Actually, no one has taken 'hits' seriously as a measure of Internet traffic for around ten years. The reason is that a 'hit' can simply be measured as the number of calls to a server - not only for the HTML page, but every image, every script, every flash file that comprises the page.

    Simply accessing the home page of gaelport.com you actually carry out 28 'hits', so the figure of 2,740 per day actually can easily translate to only the home page being called 100 times a day - including visits by search engine bots. Not very impressive.

    Lies - damn lies and statistics

    If we're going to throw random web facts at each other can we back it up?

    Where did the million hits come from?
    Where is the 28 hits on the homepage coming from?
    How do you know if he's not talking about a million 'hits' as most people would think of it - in a statcounter way?


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  • #282
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Cliste wrote: »
    That doesn't explain why students attend the Gaeltacht despite being exempt from Irish, or even students from Gaelscoils attend the Gaeltacht. I'm not going to say that thousands don't go for those reasons, but I am saying that thousands more go for the language - even though there are alternatives available through English
    "Thousands more go for the language"? Let's call a spade a spade - the majority of students go to the Gaeltacht for one of three reasons: their parents force them, it's required for their college course, or they want to have a good time away from parents' prying eyes. I've not met one person who has gone for any reason other than those.


  • #283
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    po0k wrote: »
    As it should. National University of Ireland as opposed to Queens University.
    Defence through nationalism rather than reason.
    That's a big jump to suggest there's no actual demand.
    I never said that there's no actual demand, I simply pointed out that much of the demand is artificial. Take that away and you will still have real demand, just not a lot.
    I would agree that it becomes hated, but rather due to poor teaching methods caused instutional 'by rote' teaching overseen by the Church.
    There are probably numerous reasons for its unpopularity, but the fact that it is an obligatory subject with little real purpose in the eyes of many students is certainly one of them.
    'Course, if you are jumping onto an emmigration ship, I can see how it could be viewed as 'useless' when you're going to be building railroads across a continent....
    You don't need to emigrate to find it useless. In twenty years of living and working in Ireland after my LC I did not need it once.


  • #284
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    Not as much as you might think. That doesn't explain why students attend the Gaeltacht despite being exempt from Irish, or even students from Gaelscoils attend the Gaeltacht. I'm not going to say that thousands don't go for those reasons, but I am saying that thousands more go for the language - even though there are alternatives available through English
    Grand so. If the demand is there why do we not let them stand on their own financial feet?
    How not? Despite the OLA I still go onto public service websites, and in general use the English version, why - because the translation tends to be incomplete, and lacks the up to date information that normally has me on the sites in the first place. The same goes for ringing up, chances are they won't understand Irish, cue them leaving you on hold while the find the token Gaelgeoir, wasting your time. Also it is in a catch 22 situation where 99% of other business's have no facilities for the Irish language.
    Well if you employ only Irish speakers who speak no English, I can see where this might increase your costs.


  • #285
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    po0k wrote: »
    As it should. National University of Ireland as opposed to Queens University.
    That's like telling a Walloon that he has to know Dutch if he wants to study anywhere in Belgium. Which would be fine if he were attending a university in Flanders, but by your reasoning he would have to learn Dutch even if he were attending a French-speaking university.


  • #286
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    Where did the million hits come from?
    Someone else quoted the figure.
    Where is the 28 hits on the homepage coming from?
    Calling the home page will in turn cause your browser to call an additional 27 files - 2 Giffs, 7 Jpegs, 4 CSS, 11 JavaScript files, 2 flash files and an additional HTML file (a frame).
    How do you know if he's not talking about a million 'hits' as most people would think of it - in a statcounter way?
    Depends on the source of the data. Given it was professionally done, it is fair to say that the traffic data has been supplied on the basis of professional standards. When you do this you will always get the figures broken out between hits, page impressions, unique visitors, etc., of which the first is not a seriously considered and bloated figure.

    Of course, if you mean that the administrators of the site think a hit is something "in a statcounter way", then I suspect they have bigger problems to worry about.

    All of which is based upon someone else's claim of a "million hits a year", of course.


  • #287
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Aard wrote: »
    "Thousands more go for the language"? Let's call a spade a spade - the majority of students go to the Gaeltacht for one of three reasons: their parents force them, it's required for their college course, or they want to have a good time away from parents' prying eyes. I've not met one person who has gone for any reason other than those.

    Listen, having worked in one for a few summers I know that people do go for the language. I'm not saying that there isn't another host of reasons. If it's required for their college course then that means they're either studying Irish, or teaching - and to be fair I would like to see the teachers knowing what they're teaching.

    As for the good time away from parents - yea that's why most people really really want to go. But don't forget about Delphi, Carlingford etc etc which all offer a similar experience through English.

    As for the parents forcing them - sure a whole bunch of parents do put pressure on their children - but in the end the kids go along with it. The image I get from how you say it is that the parents beat the children all the way to the bus - and that is very far from the case. Have you never heard of a child who wanted to go, because their friend had so much fun the year before? If not I'd say listen out more!
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Grand so. If the demand is there why do we not let them stand on their own financial feet?

    It get confusing arguing against a whole host of people - you're from the no funding campaign I see.. forgive me for not noticing earlier.
    I'm of the opinion that the funding that the language has should be used more efficiently than it is already, and this is one way I see of doing that.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Well if you employ only Irish speakers who speak no English, I can see where this might increase your costs.

    Ah here, you're complaining about translation costs on the state (in particular the underutilised ones), however when it comes to hypothetical translation costs in the private sector which will be used they don't exist. Unless you are saying that they should just work through Irish, which is not really my aim for the whole thing.


  • #288
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Someone else quoted the figure.

    That was aimed at him - to balance out me asking you for facts and figures.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Calling the home page will in turn cause your browser to call an additional 27 files - 2 Giffs, 7 Jpegs, 4 CSS, 11 JavaScript files, 2 flash files and an additional HTML file (a frame).

    Depends on the source of the data. Given it was professionally done, it is fair to say that the traffic data has been supplied on the basis of professional standards. When you do this you will always get the figures broken out between hits, page impressions, unique visitors, etc., of which the first is not a seriously considered and bloated figure.

    Of course, if you mean that the administrators of the site think a hit is something "in a statcounter way", then I suspect they have bigger problems to worry about.

    All of which is based upon someone else's claim of a "million hits a year", of course.

    Ahhhh looking down on those lesser not technically fluent. Very nice indeed Corinthian.

    Seriously though, I would use the word 'hit' to refer to it in a statcounter sense. I'm not saying that this isn't the case, and we're both talking codswhallop about figures we don't have. Although I like how you assume so much.

    Hmmmm, this seems to be a far more optimistic report, however I wouldn't jump at the stats nearly 2mill for 7 days ave, but a mere 3mill for the 3 month ave....


  • #289
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Alexa says that 54% of those page views are from the UK...


  • #290
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #291
    RedPlanet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭RedPlanet


    I asked the pro-subsidy side if they believe that removing the subsidising of the Irish language means it will disappear.
    Nobody really answered that.
    If they answer affirmatively, then it basically means admitting the language is doomed and only with vast amounts of public funds can it be kept on life-support. But for how long?

    If they answer negatively, then it means they believe the language is alive and well and then we must ask the obvious: why keep subsidising it?


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  • #292
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #293
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Its the closest you can get without having a referendum on every ACT and its a system that has worked reasonablt well in many countries until now.


    That works out to around 2,740 hits a day. It's hardly a hugely impressive figure. I know quite a few people running relatively niche, backwater blogs who get 2,000–3,000 hits daily.

    Hardly a "dead" language as you maintain though is it?
    The mere fact that books are being published does not mean that they are being read. In any case, 100 books a year is a minuscule figure. A voracious reader could easily keep up with the entire output of Irish-language presses.

    Another way of looking at that is that there is enough material published yearly in Irish to satisfy even the most voracious reader.

    A million hits a year on the gaelport website would mean that Irish is being read wouldnt it?


    I'm referring firstly to the various cultural nationalist movements of the late 19th and early 20th centuries, such as the Gaelic League, the Gaelic Athletic Association, the Irish Literary Revival, and the like, which were effectively arguing the case for Irish political independence on the vaguely Arnoldian grounds of linguistic and cultural uniqueness.

    OK history again...

    Some of the arguments for political independence may have used cultural and linguistic uniqueness as an argument sure. This is hardly unusual and would be in line of the claims of many small countries during the breakup of the European Empires at the end of WW1. This may have been due to a perception by these organisations at that time that the British State had a policy of marginalising Irish and Irish speakers over the hundred years previously. A policy that may have resulted in the Irish speaking community marginalised and being amonst the poorest people on the poorest land in the country which can be seen in the demographics of today.

    Even when English was the minority language it was not be possible to get work of any value if you hadnt English. No public documentation was printed in Irish at that time even though the vast majority language was Irish.

    THe language may have been tied in with nationalism but its political baggage was put there by the British state. Of course they tied it with politics when they saw what huge advantages was bestowed on the English language when it was favoured exclusively by the British State.

    Thats all history now in the independent 26 counties and language is not being cited as a reason for unification of the 32.


    I'm referring secondly to the widely acknowledged role that organizations such as the Gaelic League played in fomenting militant republicanism in the years leading up to 1916 (Hyde actually resigned as its president in 1915 because he felt that the organization had been hijacked for political purposes).

    Again were talking about old history here and language was probably political at that stage but mainly due to its supression by the State. Again history, not relevent since independence.
    And I'm referring thirdly to the evident fact that Irish language revival has always gone hand in hand with an expressly separatist, anti-British sentiment

    Then surely youll be able to show us how its evident by demonstrating how the 2003 OLA has gone hand in hand with an expressly separatist, anti-British sentiment?

    As the republic of Ireland is not joined politically to Britain (nor ever will be again certainly) its not clear what you mean by separist?

    Separist nowadays might be more likely to mean seperate from the EU.

    By anti-British I think you mean "anti Ireland being ruled supranationally by Britain" rather than in the racist sense. Youll find a huge majority are "anti-British" if that is your meaning and very few will cite the Irish language as a reason.


  • #294
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • #295
    daithicarr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 425 ✭✭daithicarr


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I agree, if people ignore reasonably accurate statistics , or ludicrously believe they were made up because they don't fit their picture of how things are, statistics are useless.

    But when people declare that things like the Irish tax payers don't or wouldn't support the amount of spending , without any back up but their own opinions, which fly in the face of what evidence is available and has been presented, then logical argument wont win the argument. When some peoples dislike or bias against a position is so strong that they can make sweeping judgements without any evidence, arguing against them is pointless. as pointless as trying to get the flat earth society to admit the earth is round.


  • #296
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • #297
    Dáibhí
    Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭Dáibhí


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    There you have the abject bigotry, racism, anglocentric myopia, cultural supremacy and anti-Irishness of the anti-Irish language lobby on this thread in one. Edmund Spenser himself would be moved by these sentiments. There's nothing "rational" about these views at all. They have brought what Herbert Butterfield termed "whig history", where the past is an inevitable march towards the progress and enlightenment of the present, to a new level.

    The sooner Irish-Ireland dies and from its ashes rises a wholly English Ireland the more comfortable these people will feel in Ireland.

    Nothing can be added.


  • #298
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    Dáibhí wrote: »
    There you have the abject bigotry, racism, anglocentric myopia, cultural supremacy and anti-Irishness of the anti-Irish language lobby on this thread in one. ...
    The sooner Irish-Ireland dies and from its ashes rises a wholly English Ireland the more comfortable these people will feel in Ireland.
    With an attitude like that I can see why the Irish language movement has alienated reasonable people who might support it more.


  • #299
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


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  • #300
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Having lived in a Gaelteacht and went to a Scoil Gaeilge I do believe our national language should be kept, but grants to people for merely living in these areas should be taken away. My mother got a grant and all I can say is her Irish is not even to the standard of the Carlsberg ad!


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  • #301
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Having lived in a Gaelteacht and went to a Scoil Gaeilge I do believe our national language should be kept, but grants to people for merely living in these areas should be taken away. My mother got a grant and all I can say is her Irish is not even to the standard of the Carlsberg ad!
    Agreed. I've been to Dingle, Gweedore, and Ring, and anytime I've tried to use my Irish have been met with stoney faces, a quick "Sea / Ní hea", and avoidance. Virtually nobody had Irish, in an area which supposedly was the stronghold of the language.


    (Also, fwiw, gaelport.com is available in English, and with 54% of visitors being from the UK, I'd imagine most of them don't use the Irish version.)


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