Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

daithicarr

How people answer the census, differs from individual to individual, i know some one who grew up speaking Irish fluently but puts themselves down as a non Irish speaker as they very rarely get the opportunity to use it.

To say many people answer that they are Irish speakers without any real information to back it up is an assumption

jimmmy

Cjoe wrote: »

Where exactly in ireland do you go? I hear it constantly if i go to a pub in carroe in galway and ring in waterford. Dingle aswell although its diluted there with tourism. But its out there.

I have been to Carraroe and Dingle and Waterford and never heard any Irish language there....maybe they only speak it when the people giving out the grants come around ?
I am sure there are a few people in the country who speak it, but that does not justify the hundreds of millions of euro wasted on the language.

Cjoe

Wicknight wrote: »

Apparently not dear enough that you would buy a copy of this report.

Basically it is a massive waste of money.

Stupid comment. Not buying this document doesnt make you anti-irish language.

Have you bought the english copy?

randypriest

lmimmfn wrote: »

While we witchhunt for overspending at least have a bit of respect for our culture.

The Irish language should not get the privilaged position it gets under some antiquated banner of 'culture' which some people find inexorably linked to patriotism.

Jugs82

jimmmy wrote: »

Far too much money and effort is wasted on Irish language. Over many decades and travels throughout every county in Ireland, I have never heard Irish spokem, apart from the very odd word here and there eg in a debate someone may use one or two Irish words eg cupla focail. I have been in newsagents many thousands of times in my life + never saw anyone buy an Irish language magazine or newspaper. Yet the govt wastes hundreds of millions of euro on it.....borrowed money which must be repaid by our children + grandchildren.

I don't have Irish, wasn't interested in it at school - I tried a few evening classes last year but to be honest, i didnt put in the required effort to get anything from it - hopefully at some stage in the future, i will make an attempt to pick it up again.

Anyways, replying to Jimmmy above, my partner is from Carna in Galway which is practically 100% Irish speaking as are the surrounding areas. I love going back there, going to the shop, having a couple of pints and having Irish spoken to me (i can grasp what people are saying, most of the time, its just the replying thats weak!)

I applaud communities who strive to maintain Irish as the spoken language and if im honest, i am more than a little ashamed that my Irish is not as good as it should and quiet honestly, could be....

I live in Galway City and Irish does play a part in life down here, walking around town, in the pubs, i often hear Irish as well as in many of the pubs that display the sign:

'Irish Spoken Here, English Understood!'

I've been to Gaeltachts in Meath, Waterford, Mayo, Donegal, Cork & Kerry and im sure those people who use it as an everyday language would disagree that Irish is irrelevant or a waste of money

It is people like you Jimmy and others in this forum who leave a real sour taste in my mouth - are you Irish at all, the English tried to kill off the language and now you wish to join them.... Sad is the only word i can use to describe that!

Irish is a part of who we are, many of us have forgotten and remember once it is gone, it'll never come back!!

Fair enough if you don't wish to speak it on any occasion but leave those that do the f**k alone

starbelgrade

T runner wrote: »

The argument of culling spending on things that dont affect the majority is your argument not mine (I have quoted you in my last post).

I am completely in two minds about this whole debate & am open to both sides of the argument. I have asked some questions in a hope to get other peoples opinions, but I have never once argued that majority should rule on this or any other issue, so please read what I write before attributing arguments to me.

T runner wrote: »

I am making the comparison to attempt to show you the error in your argument by applying it to a more black and white issue.

I have not made an argument either way, so there is no possibility of an error. And there is no necessity to compare it to another issue that has absoultely nothing in common with it. There is no logic in doing so.

T runner wrote: »

I dont for a minute think funding should be reduced for access for people with mobility problems. I think it should be increased.

Then please stop bringing it into the debate as it has nothing got to do with it.

daithicarr

randypriest wrote: »

The Irish language should not get the privilaged position it gets under some antiquated banner of 'culture' which some people find inexorably linked to patriotism.

why is it not or should it not be a part of our culture, its had a large impact on our culture, even the English we speak in influenced by it.

I personally don't see it as a matter of patriotism but have a genuine interest in it from a cultural point of view, just as i do many other languages and cultures

starbelgrade

randypriest wrote: »

antiquated banner of 'culture'

What's antiquated about culture?

The Corinthian

daithicarr wrote: »

To say many people answer that they are Irish speakers without any real information to back it up is an assumption

Indeed, but to say that there is no objective measurement of how many actual Irish speakers are out there is regrettably a fact.

Jugs82 wrote: »

Fair enough if you don't wish to speak it on any occasion but leave those that do the f**k alone

I don't think anyone would object to leaving "those that do the f**k alone", if it meant leaving them alone financially. The problem is that there is the perception that an inordinate amount of government money is spent (often wasted) on something which represents a tiny proportion of the population.

My principle point here has been that there are very few hard facts on the subject. To calculate cost should be easy enough, but to gauge the number of actual Irish speakers is presently impossible. There are no objective surveys done at present - all are either subjective self-assessment or administered by groups or bodies that have a clear conflict of interest on the matter.

The Corinthian

starbelgrade wrote: »

What's antiquated about culture?

Nothing, but I think he means that arguing the cultural significance of Irish as a defence of the language is an antiquated argument that lack the validity that it once had.

Jugs82

The Corinthian wrote: »

Indeed, but to say that there is no objective measurement of how many actual Irish speakers are out there is regrettably a fact.

I don't think anyone would object to leaving "those that do the f**k alone", if it meant leaving them alone financially. The problem is that there is the perception that an inordinate amount of government money is spent (often wasted) on something which represents a tiny proportion of the population.

My principle point here has been that there are very few hard facts on the subject. To calculate cost should be easy enough, but to gauge the number of actual Irish speakers is presently impossible. There are no objective surveys done at present - all are either subjective self-assessment or administered by groups or bodies that have a clear conflict of interest on the matter.

My point would be its impossible to measure the cost of our native language - yes, it requires a little more to be spent on it but its well justified in my opinion.

Now, I know you'll say but nobody bought those reports in Clare but if we were to stop printing them in Clare, made it optional in other counties etc... where would it stop? It would inevitably lead to only Galway, Kerry, Donegal & Maybe Mayo issuing documents in Irish...

Perhaps an alternative may be to have them on request which may save some money.

Anyways, not 100% sure about this but isnt Irish enshrined somewhere in our constitution? meaning that all official documents must be printed as gaeilge

murphaph

Jugs82 wrote: »

It is people like you Jimmy and others in this forum who leave a real sour taste in my mouth - are you Irish at all, the English tried to kill off the language and now you wish to join them.... Sad is the only word i can use to describe that!

Irish is a part of who we are, many of us have forgotten and remember once it is gone, it'll never come back!!

Fair enough if you don't wish to speak it on any occasion but leave those that do the f**k alone

This topic always turns into an anti-English rant at some point. :rolleyes:

I'm as Irish as you pal. I can't speak more than 100 words of Irish and can't form proper sentences. I probably could learn it if I wanted to as I can speak German and had to learn that as a second language but I don't feel the need or want to learn Irish, just to be different than the English! I'd rather spend my time learning French tbh. But that's just me. I had a classmate from Spain who'd been sent on a stipendium to Berlin to learn German to aid his main degree studies. If the irish government didn't squander so much on useless translations into irish then perhaps Irish kids could also be sent on these things to improve their continental (more useful) languages. People are free to learn Irish but squandering such vast sums on documents nobody reads is inexcusable.

Asking someone if they are truly Irish because they question the highly questionable is the last resort of the hardline Gaeilgoir. You ask to be left alone, fine, can Jimmy have his taxes which go to supporting your hobby back if he leaves you alone? I believe the cost is very high and if the true cost of maintaining Irish in this sacred (but relatively little used) position was made known to the taxpayer that there would indeed be widespread support for it's reduction.

randypriest

starbelgrade wrote: »

What's antiquated about culture?

The rationale behind the exceptional expense that the Irish State incurs being justified under the heading of 'culture' is an argument that is neither valid or relevant in modern Ireland and using the term 'culture' in that context is what is antiquated. I didnt say our culture was.

daithicarr

the language is only regularly spoken (daily and weekly ) by 175,009 , outside the education system, which represents 4.3 % of the population (CSO figures for 2006 )
http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_9/volume_9_irish_language_entire_volume.pdf

This is admittedly a small proportion of the over all population who use it as a regular language. Other reports have shown there is still a large support for its promotion. Some people might question the validity of the statistics, while no statistics are 100 % certain, it is a baseless and laughable assumption to think these figures and reports are some how made up to deceive the unwilling public out of their taxes to support the language.

While the evidence that the majority support the language isint concrete , no one has offered ANY plausible evidence to suggest that the current level of support is seen as too much by the general public.

many people like myself don't like to see money wasted in any department, and i don't feel the planning documents will help the language in any way, if they have to be done to keep the Irish language as an official language and entitle it to the support the majority seem to want it to have, then I am will to put up with it, and so it seems are most others as their is no wide spread appeal to have the status of the language changed.

murphaph

daithicarr wrote: »

the language is only regularly spoken (daily and weekly ) by 175,009 , outside the education system, which represents 4.3 % of the population (CSO figures for 2006 )
http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_9/volume_9_irish_language_entire_volume.pdf

That's a self assessed figure. It's almost worthless. I'd say the number of people who speak Irish every day for 75%+ of the day is around the 10k mark. 20k tops.

Jugs82

murphaph wrote: »

This topic always turns into an anti-English rant at some point. :rolleyes:

I'm as Irish as you pal. I can't speak more than 100 words of Irish and can't form proper sentences. I probably could learn it if I wanted to as I can speak German and had to learn that as a second language but I don't feel the need or want to learn Irish, just to be different than the English! I'd rather spend my time learning French tbh. But that's just me. I had a classmate from Spain who'd been sent on a stipendium to Berlin to learn German to aid his main degree studies. If the irish government didn't squander so much on useless translations into irish then perhaps Irish kids could also be sent on these things to improve their continental (more useful) languages. People are free to learn Irish but squandering such vast sums on documents nobody reads is inexcusable.

Asking someone if they are truly Irish because they question the highly questionable is the last resort of the hardline Gaeilgoir. You ask to be left alone, fine, can Jimmy have his taxes which go to supporting your hobby back if he leaves you alone? I believe the cost is very high and if the true cost of maintaining Irish in this sacred (but relatively little used) position was made known to the taxpayer that there would indeed be widespread support for it's reduction.

And inevitably the roll eyes is used.....

We'll have to agree to disagree and to be honest, im far from a hardline Gaeilgor, more a person who thinks it a great shame that others take such a negative view of the language (useless, obselete etc...)

I didnt question if anybody is truely Irish (and BTW, i hate the use of the word Pal in a derogatory way) Just that it baffles me how an Irish person can have no qualms about eradicating their native language. Just my opinion, so no need to get all agressive...

Enjoy the German!!

daithicarr

murphaph wrote: »

That's a self assessed figure. It's almost worthless. I'd say the number of people who speak Irish every day for 75%+ of the day is around the 10k mark. 20k tops.

not as worthless as the figures your pulling out of your imagination murph, on what basis do you recon 20 K tops ?????

jimmmy

Jugs82 wrote: »

It is people like you Jimmy and others in this forum who leave a real sour taste in my mouth - are you Irish at all, the English tried to kill off the language and now you wish to join them.... Sad is the only word i can use to describe that!

Irish is a part of who we are, many of us have forgotten and remember once it is gone, it'll never come back!!

Fair enough if you don't wish to speak it on any occasion but leave those that do the f**k alone

I am as Irish as anyone else here.

As someone else said, much better than I can say it "Asking someone if they are truly Irish because they question the highly questionable is the last resort of the hardline Gaeilgoir. You ask to be left alone, fine, can Jimmy have his taxes which go to supporting your hobby back if he leaves you alone ".

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

By national languages I presume you mean Official languages?

So the German official language exists only to appease German nationalists, similarly with Spanish for Spain and English for England and the languages spoken in Switzerland.

Would you care to give an estimate for the cost of compulsory Irish education since the founding of the State?

Similar to compulsory English, Mathematics, Scinece etc. Would you have stopped compulsory from day 1 of the state when it was so widely spoken?

Of all the special grants and schemes that have been provided for the Gaeltacht areas? Of the state funding that has gone into Irish-language media?[/

As I said money has only gone into these initiatives relatively recently

No, it doesn't decide to translate "all languages of its constituent nations." There are 23 official languages of the EU: Bulgarian, Czech, Danish, Dutch, English, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Irish, Italian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Maltese, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Slovak, Slovene, Spanish, and Swedish. Some status has been granted to other languages. But there are many languages spoken in the constituent nations that are not official languages—Welsh, for example.

EU docmentation are also translated into Galician, Catalan and Basque. Are these official languages?

Estimates of the number of Irish people who are fluent, daily speakers of the language range from 20,000 to 85,000, depending on the generosity of the methodology.

How many speakerss of Galician are there? Thats not an official language but is translated.

I]All monies to fund all budgets ultimately come from revenue. Now that revenue has fallen back to 2003 levels, government spending in all areas has to be adjusted. Budgets in nonessential areas, such as unnecessary translation services, should be affected most by the cuts.

So the ridiculous assertion been made on this thread and supported by you is false: That funding for Irish is directly affecting cancer tests for children?

And how do you propose to do this while upholding a citizens right to read a public document in their Official language without unnecessary delay i.e having that document translated.

I'm sure that many privately think that language revival is a wasteful, foolish, and unnecessary scheme, but few are willing to say so publicly.

Stop evading the question:

It is the Irish government who introduced the Languages Bill which means that some public documents are translated to Irish. You accused the peopele who advocated the OLA of being stubbornly nationalistic. Are you saying that the Irish government are stubbornly nationalistic.

How much is spent on English poetry and prose? Do we pay English-language authors to write books that nobody reads?

Indeed, I'm sure you consider funding Irish to be a more worthy cause than building wheelchair ramps

Id advocate the cutting of neither unlike the majority dont like it so cut it brigade. (Ironically, Irish has popular backing in Ireland. A lot of the attacks on it seem to be confused attacks on nationalism and Irish culture. I do wish people would sort out any inferiority issues they may personally have with being Irish and stop transferring it onto languages etc where it ill belongs)

Jugs82

jimmmy wrote: »

I am as Irish as anyone else here.

As someone else said, much better than I can say it "Asking someone if they are truly Irish because they question the highly questionable is the last resort of the hardline Gaeilgoir. You ask to be left alone, fine, can Jimmy have his taxes which go to supporting your hobby back if he leaves you alone ".

Christ - I'm not an Irish Speaker but 'go back to my hobby', I'd say those that do use Irish as their first language wouldn't view Irish as a hobby, more a way of life.

thats condesending in the extreme but then again what should I expect :rolleyes:

Some things go beyond money and in my opinion (emphasis on my opinion), the Irish Language is one

Maybe, go and ask these guys - link, what they think.....

murphaph

Jugs82 wrote: »

And inevitably the roll eyes is used.....

We'll have to agree to disagree and to be honest, im far from a hardline Gaeilgor, more a person who thinks it a great shame that others take such a negative view of the language (useless, obselete etc...)

I didnt question if anybody is truely Irish (and BTW, i hate the use of the word Pal in a derogatory way) Just that it baffles me how an Irish person can have no qualms about eradicating their native language. Just my opinion, so no need to get all agressive...

Enjoy the German!!

Sorry for the 'pal' remark-I could have left that out. To be honest, that post is of a very different tone (or at least it reads very differently from my perspective) than your earlier one but I still can't consider Irish to be my native language. I'm from Dublin, where Irish was all but eradicated a very long time ago. Indeed, many would say Irish was never spoken there as the city was founded by the Norsemen and then conquered by the Anglo-Normans and remained in Anglo-Norman and later English hands until independence. I'm not sure how Irish can be my native language. I probably have Anglo-Norman or Norse blood after all

The Corinthian

Jugs82 wrote: »

My point would be its impossible to measure the cost of our native language - yes, it requires a little more to be spent on it but its well justified in my opinion.

What defines a native language though? Should we not then be speaking Old Irish or the neolithic language that it supplanted? Perhaps we should all return to the Celtic religions and reject all that foreign Christianity nonsense?

Languages evolve. Some die and are replaced. Same goes for other parts of any culture. Attempting to pretend this is not also part of the culture of a nation is frankly denial.

Now, I know you'll say but nobody bought those reports in Clare but if we were to stop printing them in Clare, made it optional in other counties etc... where would it stop? It would inevitably lead to only Galway, Kerry, Donegal & Maybe Mayo issuing documents in Irish...

Probably, but isn't it then better to battle against why there is so little demand rather than forcing demand in the pretence that there is no problem?

Anyways, not 100% sure about this but isnt Irish enshrined somewhere in our constitution? meaning that all official documents must be printed as gaeilge

Constitutions represent the people, not the other way around, and as such they change, unless you hadn't noticed...

daithicarr wrote: »

the language is only regularly spoken (daily and weekly ) by 175,009 , outside the education system, which represents 4.3 % of the population (CSO figures for 2006 )
http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_9/volume_9_irish_language_entire_volume.pdf

I'm sorry, but the CSO figures are simply unreliable - I have already raised this point.

Jugs82

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry for the 'pal' remark-I could have left that out. To be honest, that post is of a very different tone (or at least it reads very differently from my perspective) than your earlier one but I still can't consider Irish to be my native language. I'm from Dublin, where Irish was all but eradicated a very long time ago. Indeed, many would say Irish was never spoken there as the city was founded by the Norsemen and then conquered by the Anglo-Normans and remained in Anglo-Norman and later English hands until independence. I'm not sure how Irish can be my native language. I probably have Anglo-Norman or Norse blood after all

Fair Point - I suppose I just have a different perspective from living in Galway and having a native Irish speaking girlfriend (I wouldnt fancy your chances with her on this argument though..)

On a side note, this thread has inspired me to go and actually read over notes from the night classes I did last year

Jugs82

The Corinthian wrote: »

Constitutions represent the people, not the other way around, and as such they change, unless you hadn't noticed...

I'm sorry, but the CSO figures are simply unreliable - I have already raised this point.

Of course, constitutions represent the people but as much as you would like to believe, i really don't think that a referendum removing Irish as an official state language is one we'll ever be voting on and in the unlikely event we ever did, I wouldnt see it getting passed

Where i do see your point about languages and customs etc.. dying and been replaced - Irish is unique in that its ours and it would be a great shame to have it die

I remember having a conversation with a while back with an Irish Speaker who felt that having Irish compulsory for the LC did the languagemore damage - she felt it should be compulsory up to JC and an option thereafter.

As for the CSO figures - well if you dont trust their figures, whose do you trust?

daithicarr

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry for the 'pal' remark-I could have left that out. To be honest, that post is of a very different tone (or at least it reads very differently from my perspective) than your earlier one but I still can't consider Irish to be my native language. I'm from Dublin, where Irish was all but eradicated a very long time ago. Indeed, many would say Irish was never spoken there as the city was founded by the Norsemen and then conquered by the Anglo-Normans and remained in Anglo-Norman and later English hands until independence. I'm not sure how Irish can be my native language. I probably have Anglo-Norman or Norse blood after all

the vast majority of people in Dublin are of Gaelic Irish stock, its unlikely you have Anglo-Norman Norse blood unless they have been there for many hundreds of years and im sure it they would have married heavily in to the Gaelic population which went to Dublin over the last 1,000 years.


As for referring to Irish as a hobby, its very condescending . it may be a minority language , but that shouldn't make it any less important from all the other lesser spoken languages in the world.
To call it a hobby implies frivolous pursuit by those who speak it and learn it.

The Corinthian

Jugs82 wrote: »

Of course, constitutions represent the people but as much as you would like to believe, i really don't think that a referendum removing Irish as an official state language is one we'll ever be voting on and in the unlikely event we ever did, I wouldnt see it getting passed

My gut feeling is that you're right, but only at present.

The decline of the language along with the perceived cost has been growing over the last few decades - this very discussion could not have taken place thirty years ago, for example. So while I wouldnt see such a referendum getting passed today, if things don't change for the better for Irish, it may well occur within our lifetimes.

Where i do see your point about languages and customs etc.. dying and been replaced - Irish is unique in that its ours and it would be a great shame to have it die

It would be. Of course sometimes you have to accept that the parrot is not simply resting.

I remember having a conversation with a while back with an Irish Speaker who felt that having Irish compulsory for the LC did the languagemore damage - she felt it should be compulsory up to JC and an option thereafter.

But wouldn't that return you to the scenario you raised whereby making the printing of documents in Irish optional would lead to people not bothering?

I'd agree that making it obligatory has harmed the language (and Peig Sayers has much to answer for), but it's going to take more than that or simply pumping money into TV stations that people only tune into for the English language shows. Buggered if I know what though.

As for the CSO figures - well if you dont trust their figures, whose do you trust?

None. As I said, there are no independent, objective figures out there.

The Corinthian

daithicarr wrote: »

To call it a hobby implies frivolous pursuit by those who speak it and learn it.

Well, unless one has to learn it because there is no English spoken where they live or for other practical reasons, then there can only be two reasons for learning the language - a hobby or ideological reasons.

murphaph

daithicarr wrote: »

the vast majority of people in Dublin are of Gaelic Irish stock, its unlikely you have Anglo-Norman Norse blood unless they have been there for many hundreds of years and im sure it they would have married heavily in to the Gaelic population which went to Dublin over the last 1,000 years.

well, I don't feel very "gaelic" in any case. I'm just an Irishman, from Dublin who has no affinity to a language that hasn't been spoken by a majority of people in Dublin for centuries, if ever. Dublin only expanded to be a large city relatively recently, those that moved there (like my mother from Co. Kildare) in many cases also couldn't speak Irish! I know plenty of Dubs do feel an affinity for it, and that's fine.

daithicarr wrote: »

As for referring to Irish as a hobby, its very condescending . it may be a minority language , but that shouldn't make it any less important from all the other lesser spoken languages in the world.
To call it a hobby implies frivolous pursuit by those who speak it and learn it.

I learned (and still learn every day) German. It's a language spoken by 105 million native speakers and the most widely spoken daily language in the EU. It's a hobby for me, why wouldn't it be a hobby to learn a language like Irish which is arguably less useful given so few people actually speak it or will ever speak it. I don't take offence when someone says "that's an interesting hobby" when they find out I learned German.

starbelgrade

randypriest wrote: »

The rationale behind the exceptional expense that the Irish State incurs being justified under the heading of 'culture' is an argument that is neither valid or relevant in modern Ireland and using the term 'culture' in that context is what is antiquated. I didnt say our culture was.

I see what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying your point. I'm not sure I agree though - the Irish language forms a great part of our heritage and is still part of our national culture & identity even in modern Ireland, though it's usage for the greater part has greatly diminished. Just because something is old, doesn't necessarily mean that it's antiquated.

I would hate to see funding to the language cut altogether - but there is definitely a need to debate exactly how much it costs & is what we spend worth it.

starbelgrade

T runner wrote: »

EU docmentation are also translated into Galician, Catalan and Basque. Are these official languages?

Galician is one of the official languages of Galicia, along with castellano, Catalan is the national & official language of Andorra & the co-official language of Catalonia, Valencia & the Balearics and Basque is a co-official language in the Basque regions of Spain, though it doesn't have any official status in the northern Basque area of France.