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Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

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  • #182
    The Muppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    whatawaster wrote: »
    If you buy two cars for a total of €50,000, but sold your existing car for €50,000, are you going to tell the wife you went out and spent €50K of your hard-earned money on automobiles? Of course not.

    I like the analagy. I mightn't tell the wife but that wouldn't alter the fact that I would have spent 50 K. Thats the point I am making, I am not trying to justify the way purslow calculated the figures.

    Rafa in his time at Liverpool has recieved a lot of money to spend, this point tends to be overlooked at times.


  • #183
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    Muppet, you are right, Rafa has received money. Now, move on. You're clinging onto something that no one is arguing against, everyone knows Rafa has been given some money.

    But in the last couple of seasons, his net has been practically zero. By anyones standards, this is unacceptable from our owners when they/the fans expectation is for the league to be won, a team thats been dominating the PL for the last 20 years to be overthrown & the noveau rich to be beaten. Very strange & totally unfair.

    Rafa is doing wonders somehow moving us forward under the financial restrictions he's been working under (note: i said "restrictions", not that he has had zero money) & this is without even mentioning the embarrasing mismanagement of the team at board room level.


  • #184
    The Muppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Mr Alan wrote: »
    Muppet, you are right, Rafa has received money. Now, move on. You're clinging onto something that no one is arguing against, everyone knows Rafa has been given some money.

    That's not what you said earlier, You said the the owners had given him no support. That's clearly not true.
    Mr Alan wrote: »

    But in the last couple of seasons, his net has been practically zero. By anyones standards, this is unacceptable from our owners when they/the fans expectation is for the league to be won, a team thats been dominating the PL for the last 20 years to be overthrown & the noveau rich to be beaten. Very strange & totally unfair.

    Last season net was £6 million his overall spending was £39 million thats a lot of money. This season is only hafway through his net is £1 million his spending so far is £36 million , again thats a lot of money.

    Mr Alan wrote: »

    Rafa is doing wonders somehow moving us forward under the financial restrictions he's been working under (note: i said "restrictions", not that he has had zero money) & this is without even mentioning the embarrasing mismanagement of the team at board room level.

    £75 million spent on new players in the last two season, the team appeared to be improving, they were fantastic in the run in to the title last year, has this seasons team improved on that? It's too early to say but the early indications are that it has not.

    If you consider the five years rafa has been in charge or the three years since the yanks took over , he has recieved a lot of support from the owners.


  • #185
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    The Muppet wrote: »

    Last season net was £6 million his overall spending was £39 million thats a lot of money. This season is only hafway through his net is £1 million his spending so far is £36 million , again thats a lot of money.




    £75 million spent on new players in the last two season, the team appeared to be improving, they were fantastic in the run in to the title last year, has this seasons team improved on that? It's too early to say but the early indications are that it has not.

    you are still making misleading statements.
    Saying things like that implies that there is no difference between a manager who spends 200m and recoups 200m and a manager who spends 200m and recoups 0m


  • #186
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    The Muppet wrote: »
    If you consider the five years rafa has been in charge or the three years since the yanks took over , he has recieved a lot of support from the owners.

    this is just 100% incorrect. if you firmly believe this, lets just end the conversation cause you're obviously on a wind up.

    you yourself gave the figures of net spend 1m & 6m (i think they're generous, but i'll accept them) in the last 2 seasons, you think those kind of figures are the kind of thing that a team needs to go from CL qualification to winning the league? honestly....

    oh & as for the person wanting to know how they are being mismanaged at boardroom level, try your owners publically throwing mud at eachother, or one owner publically slating the MD, the other owner defending him & refusing to back the call for his resignation, try admitting that you've tried to get someone with no relevant experience to replace one of europes most respected managers because of good contacts this new canditate has in the marketing world....and that's without even mentioning the stadium & constant lies.


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  • #187
    Karmafaerie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Karmafaerie


    The Muppet wrote: »
    I like the analagy. I mightn't tell the wife but that wouldn't alter the fact that I would have spent 50 K. Thats the point I am making, I am not trying to justify the way purslow calculated the figures.

    Rafa in his time at Liverpool has recieved a lot of money to spend, this point tends to be overlooked at times.

    I give you 2 apples.
    You then swap one of those apples for another apple.
    Does that mean that I gave you 3 apples?

    No.

    Simple enoughh?


  • #188
    Killme00
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Killme00


    Karmafaerie wrote: »
    I give you 2 apples.
    You then swap one of those apples for another apple.
    Does that mean that I gave you 3 apples?

    No.

    Simple enoughh?

    Are all apples equal?

    Some apples are more equal than others. :D


  • #189
    Karmafaerie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Karmafaerie


    Killme00 wrote: »
    Again, how has the TEAM been mismanaged at boardroom level? Management of the team lies directly at the feet of the manager not the muppets in the boardroom.

    Garreth Barry, Alves, Vidic, Malouda, etc not being signed.
    As Parry thought they were too expensive (at in most cases a fraction of what they eventualy were sold for).

    Robbie Keane and as much as I hate to say it Babel being signed aginst Rafa's wishes.


  • #190
    Kess73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    Karmafaerie wrote: »
    I give you 2 apples.
    You then swap one of those apples for another apple.
    Does that mean that I gave you 3 apples?

    No.

    Simple enoughh?



    It would mean you gave him two apples, that he currently has two apples, but has had three different apples overall.


    And that one of the apples you gave him must have been a bit off as he had to get rid of it for another apple.

    So the question must be why did you give him a bad apple?

    :p


  • #191
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    Would you swap an apple for an orange Karma, I'm a bit peckish?


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  • #192
    missingtime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,942 ✭✭✭missingtime


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Would you swap an apple for an orange Karma, I'm a bit peckish?

    No lemons...we've had plenty of them already.


  • #193
    Dublin_Gunner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,692 ✭✭✭Dublin_Gunner


    missingtime wrote: »
    No lemons...we've had plenty of them already.

    Don't worry, its all apples and oranges anyway...


  • #194
    Karmafaerie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Karmafaerie


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Would you swap an apple for an orange Karma, I'm a bit peckish?

    You'd have to ask Rick Parry, he arranges everything.
    Unfortunately he's on holidays at the moment.


  • #195
    The Muppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Karmafaerie wrote: »
    I give you 2 apples.
    You then swap one of those apples for another apple.
    Does that mean that I gave you 3 apples?

    No.

    Simple enoughh?

    I don't even like apples:) If I gave you 2 apples and you sold those two apples for the price of one apple, would I give you any more apples?


  • #196
    Karmafaerie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Karmafaerie


    The Muppet wrote: »
    I don't even like apples:) If I gave you 2 apples and you sold those two apples for the price of one apple, would I give you any more apples?

    Well if you gave me two apples and I sold them and bought you Torres (tripled in value), Mascherano (doubled in value), Agger (doubled in value), Reina (tripled in value), Alonso (sold for more than 3 times what he was bought for), Insua (more than tripled in value), Crouch (sold at a profit), Sissoko (sold a a profit), Bellamy (sold at a profit) etc, I'd hazzard a quick guess that you'd be pretty damn happy.


  • #197
    Mr Alan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,372 ✭✭✭✭Mr Alan


    The Muppet wrote: »
    Where did these valuations comne form they all look on the optimistc side to me ? Even if they were right it's still only one in five making a profit, I'd be keeping my apples than you.

    they are just the most extreme examples picked. and the valuations were on the conservative side if anything.

    overall, unless i'm mistaken, Rafa has rarely lost money on players brought in.

    your 1 in 5 is almost certainly picked out from your arse anyway! :p


  • #198
    Karmafaerie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Karmafaerie


    The Muppet wrote: »
    Where did these valuations comne form they all look on the optimistc side to me ? Even if they were right it's still only one in five making a profit, I'd be keeping my apples than you.

    1 in 5.

    Damn, if I'd known your maths were that bad I'd have asked for more apples!


    Torres cost 20 mill, we've turned down offers of 50 mill plus. At least worth 60 mill.

    Insua cost 2 mill, 6 mill would be the least we'd get for him.

    Mascherano cost 16 mill, 35 mill was mentioned during the summer, as not nearly enough.

    Reina Bought for 6 mill. 18 mill is the least we'd get for him. Not that he'd ever be sold.

    Agger Bought for 5.8 mill. 12 mill for a player of his quality with 5 years on his contract.

    Bellamy Bought for 6 mill. Sold for 7.5

    Alonso Bought for 10.5 mill. Sold for 30 (rising to a possible 35) mill.

    Crouch Bought for 7 mill. Sold for 11 mill (with one year left in contract).

    Sissoko Bought for 5.6 mill. Sold for 8.2 mill


  • #199
    The Muppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Karmafaerie wrote: »
    1 in 5.

    Damn, if I'd known your maths were that bad I'd have asked for more apples!


    Torres cost 20 mill, we've turned down offers of 50 mill plus. At least worth 60 mill.

    Insua cost 2 mill, 6 mill would be the least we'd get for him.

    Mascherano cost 16 mill, 35 mill was mentioned during the summer, as not nearly enough.

    Reina Bought for 6 mill. 18 mill is the least we'd get for him. Not that he'd ever be sold.

    Agger Bought for 5.8 mill. 12 mill for a player of his quality with 5 years on his contract.

    Bellamy Bought for 6 mill. Sold for 7.5

    Alonso Bought for 10.5 mill. Sold for 30 (rising to a possible 35) mill.

    Crouch Bought for 7 mill. Sold for 11 mill (with one year left in contract).

    Sissoko Bought for 5.6 mill. Sold for 8.2 mill

    You're right my math's is ****. Thats nine of the 55 he's purchased , it's less than one one five.

    I could argue about your valuations as the purchases you listed are undervalued, for example Torres and Macherano both cost more than you say. Most of the sell on fees are just speculation so there's no point is there?


  • #200
    MementoMori
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,492 ✭✭✭MementoMori


    Any chance a mod could transfer all of the recent stuff about the spending to the Liverpool spending thread?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055500815&page=11

    That way anyone who wants to discuss this can do this as opposed to dragging it all up in the main thread for the umpteenth time?


  • #201
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MementoMori wrote: »
    Any chance a mod could transfer all of the recent stuff about the spending to the Liverpool spending thread?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055500815&page=11

    That way anyone who wants to discuss this can do this as opposed to dragging it all up in the main thread for the umpteenth time?

    The best suggestion I've heard in a long time.


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  • #202
    Karmafaerie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Karmafaerie


    The Muppet wrote: »
    You're right my math's is ****. Thats nine of the 55 he's purchased , it's less than one one five.

    I could argue about your valuations as the purchases you listed are undervalued, for example Torres and Macherano both cost more than you say. Most of the sell on fees are just speculation so there's no point is there?

    No Torres and Mascherano didn't cost more than I mentioned.
    They were reported to have cost more, but they didn't.

    Torres was 20.6 rissing to a possible 22 mill or so, but we haven't won the league or CL since, so it's still at the original 20 millish.

    Masch was 16 on the dot as revealed by his owners at the time.


    Nice try though.
    You keep believing what you want.


  • #203
    The Muppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,006 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Karmafaerie wrote: »
    No Torres and Mascherano didn't cost more than I mentioned.
    They were reported to have cost more, but they didn't.

    Torres was 20.6 rissing to a possible 22 mill or so, but we haven't won the league or CL since, so it's still at the original 20 millish.

    Masch was 16 on the dot as revealed by his owners at the time.


    Nice try though.
    You keep believing what you want.

    http://www.lfchistory.net/stats_transfers_by_manager_detail.asp?Transfer_id=1111

    lets leave it there shall we?


  • #204
    Karmafaerie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,871 ✭✭✭Karmafaerie


    The Muppet wrote: »
    http://www.lfchistory.net/stats_transfers_by_manager_detail.asp?Transfer_id=1111

    lets leave it there shall we?

    Not the figures quoted by his owner at the time, and Liverpool never release transfer details.

    And even if you do want to use your figures, that would put the transfer fee at £17,000,000 twice £17,000,000 is £34,000,000.
    Masch was supposedly being looked at for £35,000,000 and Rafa said that £50,000,000 couldn't buy him.

    So even using your figures, I was being conserative in my original post.

    Thank you for agreeing with me and backing up my point with your link Muppet.


  • #205
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,457 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    whatawaster wrote: »
    Last season, despite the fact that he had spent just 5m last year,

    :confused:

    Reira & Keane???

    Thats almost 30 million???

    Dosenna & Cavaleri, thats another 10+m??


  • #206
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Boggles wrote: »
    :confused:

    Reira & Keane???

    Thats almost 30 million???

    Dosenna & Cavaleri, thats another 10+m??

    To fund those Purchases Crouch had to be sacrificed. Riise sold to fund Dossena purchase and Keane sold to fund himself halfway through the year.
    Just to tell the full story and all . . .


  • #207
    Boggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,457 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    whatawaster wrote: »
    To fund those Purchases Crouch had to be sacrificed. Riise sold to fund Dossena purchase and Keane sold to fund himself halfway through the year.
    Just to tell the full story and all . . .

    So what?

    He still spent the guts of 40 million, players will always have to move on at every club, money recouped goes back into the club for future transfers,etc.

    Players moving on or not working out does not nulify or justify spending.

    He spent the guts of 40 million last season on players not 5 like you said, just to tell the full story and all...


  • #208
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    But there is a difference between spending 40 million and bringing in 35 million in sales and spending 40 million and bringing in nothing in Sales.
    That’s why to properly compare between different clubs it’s better to use net spend as a comparison because it gives a better view of the substance of their resources.


  • #209
    Ardent
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,365 ✭✭✭Ardent


    Well, let's look at it then. These are some of the the flops he has bought since the Americans took over:

    Babel - 11M
    Kuyt - 11M
    Lucas - 5M?
    Dossena - 7M
    Rieira - 10M?
    Insua - 2M?

    That's a lot of rubbish for good money right there, all of whom are playing regularly.

    (And don't come out with this crap that Kuyt isn't a flop. I've said it many times in the past and I'll say it again - Liverpool will never win the Premiership while that guy's an ever-present in the team.)

    And then there's the Keane fiasco which was costly and frankly embarrassing to all concerned.

    Benitez's good purchases include:
    Torres - 22M
    Reina - 7M?
    Agger - 5M?
    Mascherano - 19M
    Johnson - 18M

    How can anyone say he has been hampered in the transfer market? It's a ridiculous assertion.

    Oh yeah, forgot - "net spend". That old chestnut.


  • #210
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Headshot wrote: »
    and who's fault is it that alonos left

    im not having a go at rafa

    im having a go at people always blaming ye're owners for everything

    I’m not blaming the owners for Alonso leaving certainly. I don’t think many players would have turned Madrid down this summer.
    My point remains, and it can’t really be argued.
    Had Alonso and Arbeloa stayed, Rafa would have had next to nothing to spend.
    So I ask you – would that have meant the owners had backed him in the transfer market? (spending ~ Zero)
    So how is it really different from what’s occurred? (NET spending ~ ZERO)


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  • #211
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    Ardent wrote: »
    Well, let's look at it then. These are some of the the flops he has bought since the Americans took over:

    Babel - 11M
    Kuyt - 11M
    Lucas - 5M?
    Dossena - 7M
    Rieira - 10M?
    Insua - 2M?

    That's a lot of rubbish for good money right there, all of whom are playing regularly.

    (And don't come out with this crap that Kuyt isn't a flop. I've said it many times in the past and I'll say it again - Liverpool will never win the Premiership while that guy's an ever-present in the team.)

    And then there's the Keane fiasco which was costly and frankly embarrassing to all concerned.

    Benitez's good purchases include:
    Torres - 22M
    Reina - 7M?
    Agger - 5M?
    Mascherano - 19M
    Johnson - 18M

    How can anyone say he has been hampered in the transfer market? It's a ridiculous assertion.

    Oh yeah, forgot - "net spend". That old chestnut.

    How is Kuyt a flop when only Ronaldo was more productive among wingers last season?
    Insua a flop at 2m. You’re really showing yourself to be clueless here. Firstly, he cost just 1.3m and he’s only a kid.

    Anyone who completely discounts net spend knows nothing about how businesses work and their opinion is invalid.


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