How to beat a casino - Derren Brown

OK-Cancel-Apply · 03-10-2009 03:38PM

zuroph wrote: »

I correct myself, the casino was stooged, that's it. The only non live bit was d casino. I hypnotise people, its possible to create the effect you saw last night with some hypnosis and some editing. My take is ;
Derren or accomplice meets ben, hypnotises him, and sets up d square scene.
Derren then films the scene nd makes it look like first meeting.
Off-edit he gives him envelope and tells him to return it after visit to ba k.
The house scene is live. I'd even guess derren was in d first truck.
The casino was pre-recorded.

Assuming it IS possible and Derren went to great lengths to 'soften him up' and pre-hypnotise him, wouldn't it just be simpler to use an actor or a stooge? They'll do anything to make a TV show. I'm sure we all remember the ridiculous Russian Roulette and the laughable lotto. Derren has no reputation to uphold IMO - he's just an entertainer.

Its the simplest way to do the trick, and works.

At this point though, what is the trick? Derren pretends to take a guy's money and pretends to lose a bet with it. Not very impressive if you ask me!

Thursday night i was asked for a demo of hypnosis. I walked over to a girl in club, held out hand and two seconds later she was in a deep trance. Spectator amazed. Of course, the spectator doesnt know i've previously spent a long time deepening this girls suggestability to hypnosis and now can be brought back under much quicker.

A few other things in derren's favour, the fact that he's well known and respected means the subject is instantly more subceptible.

I'm not suggesting that you can't do it, but it sounds to me as if the girl in question saw that you were demonstrating something, and simply complied with it. You say later that she's a good friend. Surely for true hypnosis to be demonstrated you'd need a stranger, wouldn't you?

rubadub · 03-10-2009 04:57PM

Liathroidi Dana wrote: »

How come alot of people dislike derren, seems pretty cool ta me?

He has cried wolf one too many times.

zuroph · 03-10-2009 05:03PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Assuming it IS possible and Derren went to great lengths to 'soften him up' and pre-hypnotise him, wouldn't it just be simpler to use an actor or a stooge? They'll do anything to make a TV show. I'm sure we all remember the ridiculous Russian Roulette and the laughable lotto. Derren has no reputation to uphold IMO - he's just an entertainer.

The effect yesterday is quite a technically complicated piece, perhaps he's pushed the boundary out too much for the layperson, as a magician, I can appreciate the planning and work that went into it much more.

At this point though, what is the trick? Derren pretends to take a guy's money and pretends to lose a bet with it. Not very impressive if you ask me!

The trick is being so close, making it look like he almost managed it by being out by one, while at the same time having a perfect excuse for not having to hand over £180,000. If you lok around online and elsewhere, many many many people are saying "oh he was close, unlucky!". Just because you arent fooled doesnt mean others aren't.

I'm not suggesting that you can't do it, but it sounds to me as if the girl in question saw that you were demonstrating something, and simply complied with it. You say later that she's a good friend. Surely for true hypnosis to be demonstrated you'd need a stranger, wouldn't you?

I have hypnotised strangers too. I fail to see your point. I get that you think she's complying, but theres much more to it than that, as backed up by a lot of scientific research. I've made people forget their names, numbers, stuck them to the spot, some of these people I've known, some I've met for the very first time. hypnosis is compliance in a sense, yes, but not conscious compliance, rather, sub-conscious compliance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_8tfT8F5OQ

is a good example. This format has been picked up and used in several countries. In it, a contestant volunteers for a gameshow. he's hypnotised, and put in several situations, then given amnesia about the whole experience. the next day, he wakes up on a gameshow, and has to try guess what he did next in a series of clips he's shown. sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong, they genuinely struggle to remember, even with €10,000 at stake.

Funny story about the filming of that one, when they arrive at the door to surprise him with the camera crew, its actually take 3. the first time, the lighting wasnt good, the second time the producer didnt like his reaction. To this day the contestant doesnt know there was 3 takes; each time, he was sent back to bed and made forget the whole thing.

slipss · 03-10-2009 05:08PM

Terrontress wrote: »

.

The whole thing is just a trick.

Wait...wait a second. The illusionist can't really make a rabbit appear in a hat from thin air? A trick you say? I am shocked, shocked and appalled.

What in God's name is it with people having a go at Derren Brown all the time for doing what magicians and illusionists are supposed to do? Of course he can't actually predict the lotto numbers ahead of time, of course he can't actually guess every winner at a horse race meeting. The "craft" or whatever you want to call it of magic, is about doing something that people know you can't actually have done but with out them being able to tell how you made it appear possible. He does tricks, that's what the guy does. It's like critisizing Steven Gerrard for scoring goals. "All the guy does is kick the ball at a certain speed in a certain direction so that it goes between the goal posts while avoiding the keeper!!" Yes, that's what he's supposed to do.

Catmologen · 03-10-2009 05:13PM

Beating a casino is nothing new, people have been doing it for decades. Theres plenty of different ways of doing it, Derren was simply demonstrating a method. The idea that stooges are used in his shows is absurd, one of them would have sold their story long ago. People on message boards love a conspiracy.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 03-10-2009 09:59PM

zuroph wrote: »

The effect yesterday is quite a technically complicated piece, perhaps he's pushed the boundary out too much for the layperson, as a magician, I can appreciate the planning and work that went into it much more.

Which one? The hypnosis of the guy? I think you give Derren more credit than he deserves. I think you are willing to give him a free ride no matter what, and if he does something undeniably stupid, then it's just him moving in mysterious ways.

The trick is being so close, making it look like he almost managed it by being out by one, while at the same time having a perfect excuse for not having to hand over £180,000. If you lok around online and elsewhere, many many many people are saying "oh he was close, unlucky!". Just because you arent fooled doesnt mean others aren't.

I don't think pretending to almost bet on the right number in a fake casino full of stooges is something that only a skilled magician can accomplish.

I have hypnotised strangers too. I fail to see your point. I get that you think she's complying, but theres much more to it than that, as backed up by a lot of scientific research. I've made people forget their names, numbers, stuck them to the spot, some of these people I've known, some I've met for the very first time. hypnosis is compliance in a sense, yes, but not conscious compliance, rather, sub-conscious compliance.

Keith, is that you? If so, then I can understand why you'd want to defend this particular brand of magic-based performance art, but TBH, I personally think its days are numbered. This is coming from me the viewer, and it's the viewers you're going to have to convince otherwise, not your fellow magicians. I think Derren has burned too many bridges to sell himself and somebody with Jedi-like abilities. He can only be as convincing as him most implausible stunt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_8tfT8F5OQ

is a good example. This format has been picked up and used in several countries. In it, a contestant volunteers for a gameshow. he's hypnotised, and put in several situations, then given amnesia about the whole experience. the next day, he wakes up on a gameshow, and has to try guess what he did next in a series of clips he's shown. sometimes they get it right, sometimes they get it wrong, they genuinely struggle to remember, even with €10,000 at stake.

Funny story about the filming of that one, when they arrive at the door to surprise him with the camera crew, its actually take 3. the first time, the lighting wasnt good, the second time the producer didnt like his reaction. To this day the contestant doesnt know there was 3 takes; each time, he was sent back to bed and made forget the whole thing.

There's still no way of knowing for sure who's in on it. Like I said earlier, they will do anything to make an interesting TV show, and that includes dressing up fiction as fact. Unless of course the programme is presented as a serious piece of journalism.

Derren would have us believe that he made a man forget he ever met him, and that he influenced him to watch the show. Why should we believe him? Why know he's not above cheap tricks, and we know he uses stooges.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 03-10-2009 10:06PM

slipss wrote: »

Wait...wait a second. The illusionist can't really make a rabbit appear in a hat from thin air? A trick you say? I am shocked, shocked and appalled.

What in God's name is it with people having a go at Derren Brown all the time for doing what magicians and illusionists are supposed to do? Of course he can't actually predict the lotto numbers ahead of time, of course he can't actually guess every winner at a horse race meeting. The "craft" or whatever you want to call it of magic, is about doing something that people know you can't actually have done but with out them being able to tell how you made it appear possible. He does tricks, that's what the guy does. It's like critisizing Steven Gerrard for scoring goals. "All the guy does is kick the ball at a certain speed in a certain direction so that it goes between the goal posts while avoiding the keeper!!" Yes, that's what he's supposed to do.

You miss the point entirely. It's not that people are disappointed that Derren's feats are not 'real', it's that they are of such a low quality that they insult the intelligence and waste the time of viewers with higher expectations. It's irritating watching him pretend to hypnotise people and play mind games with them and expect the viewing public to think him a genius, when he tricks are so damn cheap they beggar belief. That's all.

zuroph · 03-10-2009 10:37PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Which one? The hypnosis of the guy? I think you give Derren more credit than he deserves. I think you are willing to give him a free ride no matter what, and if he does something undeniably stupid, then it's just him moving in mysterious ways.

I don't think pretending to almost bet on the right number in a fake casino full of stooges is something that only a skilled magician can accomplish.

Keith, is that you? If so, then I can understand why you'd want to defend this particular brand of magic-based performance art, but TBH, I personally think its days are numbered. This is coming from me the viewer, and it's the viewers you're going to have to convince otherwise, not your fellow magicians. I think Derren has burned too many bridges to sell himself and somebody with Jedi-like abilities. He can only be as convincing as him most implausible stunt.

There's still no way of knowing for sure who's in on it. Like I said earlier, they will do anything to make an interesting TV show, and that includes dressing up fiction as fact. Unless of course the programme is presented as a serious piece of journalism.

Derren would have us believe that he made a man forget he ever met him, and that he influenced him to watch the show. Why should we believe him? Why know he's not above cheap tricks, and we know he uses stooges.

There is a way to know it, I know the hypnotist on the show, and know all the backstage stories from it.
we don't know he uses stooges, prove it.

Basically, you're borderline trolling at this stage, in spite of scientific evidence of the ability of hypnosis to alter someones beliefs, you flat deny it works. You haven't backed up your opinion with any evidence whatsoever. All you've done is blindly insisted he's using stooges actors etc. Its actually easier to use hypnosis than a stooge, as a hypnotised subject doesnt sell their story after.

Also, yes, keith uses fake hypnosis onstage. that doesnt make hypnosis any more or less real, but yeah, I'll admit that.

OK-Cancel-Apply · 03-10-2009 10:55PM

zuroph wrote: »

There is a way to know it, I know the hypnotist on the show, and know all the backstage stories from it.
we don't know he uses stooges, prove it.

Didn't you just admit that you thought the casino was stooged? Also, there are many effects in Derren's show that can only be achieved with stooges. For instance, pointing at someone out of a window about 200 metres away and 'willing' them to stop walking.

Basically, you're borderline trolling at this stage,

Wow, I really didn't expect you to whip out the 'You're a troll' card. Why are you trying to turn this conversation nasty? Can't you just reply with a counter argument?

in spite of scientific evidence of the ability of hypnosis to alter someones beliefs, you flat deny it works. You haven't backed up your opinion with any evidence whatsoever. All you've done is blindly insisted he's using stooges actors etc. Its actually easier to use hypnosis than a stooge, as a hypnotised subject doesnt sell their story after.

I'm not denying hypnosis exists. I'm trying to underline that we are watching entertainment television, not scientific explorations of hypnosis. The key point is this: Why should we believe Derren Brown when he tries to sell himself as the sort of hypnotist with near Jedi-like abilities, when his job is to lie to us and appear to be doing something he's not? I accept your point about a stooge selling his story, but let's not forget that many of his tricks involve lots of crew to make them work properly, and they could sell their stories too.

Also, yes, keith uses fake hypnosis onstage. that doesnt make hypnosis any more or less real, but yeah, I'll admit that.

Your words, not mine. But if can admit this, then why are you so surprised when people question Derren's abilities? How is Keith different to Derren?

zuroph · 03-10-2009 11:12PM

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Didn't you just admit that you thought the casino was stooged? Also, there are many effects in Derren's show that can only be achieved with stooges. For instance, pointing at someone out of a window about 200 metres away and 'willing' them to stop walking.

I hav never seen a stooge used in derren's show, in the traditional sense of the trick being done to the stooge. the casino was acted yes, but it wasnt made to look like the casino had been fooled.

Wow, I really didn't expect you to whip out the 'You're a troll' card. Why are you trying to turn this conversation nasty? Can't you just reply with a counter argument?

related to the next point

I'm not denying hypnosis exists. I'm trying to underline that we are watching entertainment television, not scientific explorations of hypnosis. The key point is this: Why should we believe Derren Brown when he tries to sell himself as the sort of hypnotist with near Jedi-like abilities, when his job is to lie to us and appear to be doing something he's not? I accept your point about a stooge selling his story, but let's not forget that many of his tricks involve lots of crew to make them work properly, and they could sell their stories too.

Your words, not mine. But if can admit this, then why are you so surprised when people question Derren's abilities? How is Keith different to Derren?

As a hypnotist and a magician, I can see the simplest way to perform many of these effects. I was at Keiths show two weeks ago, and could see that the hypnotism he used was fake. his reasoning being its a live nightly show, and he brings 3 volunteers up and needs a 100% success rate. He fakes it to look perfect, with simple magic tricks.

Likewise, I can see no reason or need for Derren to fake it in the episode. Its easier to not fake it and just do it. Faking it would rely on no1 talking online about how they knew Ben and how he was an underworked actor etc. Its much easier for Derren for this part of the show to have been genuine. Its really quite simple.

asdasd · 03-10-2009 11:18PM

Likewise, I can see no reason or need for Derren to fake it in the episode. Its easier to not fake it and just do it. Faking it would rely on no1 talking online about how they knew Ben and how he was an underworked actor etc. Its much easier for Derren for this part of the show to have been genuine. Its really quite simple.

Hmm, i dont think any of this were live, so Ben has to hold a secret anyway.

Fuzzy Clam · 04-10-2009 12:16AM

@ Zuroph.
You stated during the Lottery "trick" that you reckoned you knew how it was done and it didn't involve camera trickery,

Quote "Im fairly certain ive it worked out now. its not a split screen thing." Ooooops!

It's pretty much accepted that it was, isn't it?
You still haven't told us your theory, unless I missed that post. Will you now, please. I for one would like to hear it.

I also don't believe that he hypnotised us to glue us to our seats. You're convinced he did and dismiss any other answer.

I haven't seen last nights show yet so I can't comment on it but I wonder why you're so adamant that your reasoning is always correct unless it can be proved otherwise.

Perhaps your vested interest in this mumbo jumbo has a little to do with it.

Chonaic · 04-10-2009 12:20AM

Next he'll show us the how to win deal or no deal :rolleyes:

asdasd · 04-10-2009 12:22AM

heres how to win Deal or No Deal. Open a few boxes. Deal.

/leave.

zuroph · 04-10-2009 02:00AM

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

@ Zuroph.
You stated during the Lottery "trick" that you reckoned you knew how it was done and it didn't involve camera trickery,

Quote "Im fairly certain ive it worked out now. its not a split screen thing." Ooooops!

It's pretty much accepted that it was, isn't it?
You still haven't told us your theory, unless I missed that post. Will you now, please. I for one would like to hear it.

I also don't believe that he hypnotised us to glue us to our seats. You're convinced he did and dismiss any other answer.

I haven't seen last nights show yet so I can't comment on it but I wonder why you're so adamant that your reasoning is always correct unless it can be proved otherwise.

Perhaps your vested interest in this mumbo jumbo has a little to do with it.

No, I've admitted I was wrong about the lottery show. I was almost certain there was a perpective trick at play, due to the arrangement of the backround, but I concede I was wrong on that, it was one of the misdirections.
I had a theory since on the reasoning for it all, I can't remember where i posted it (possibly chat thread on poker even!) but it was that there was a level of grooming and conditioning going on for last nights show.

I have no vested interest in whether someone else can produce an effect or not, if anything, I'd prefer if other weren't better than me!

Regards the stuck to your seats show, you maintain he was relying on fatigue? I maintain he was relying on waking hypnosis. Neither will convince either of the others viewpoint, so lets leave it at that. I am curious though, that my viewpoint is based on a knowledge of the subject and a few years study of different methods, where as yours is based on??

How to beat a casino - Derren Brown

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