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Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?
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Posting the last few comments here in a commercial fishing online bulletin board.
Pure gold.
Thanks for the NO voters Sam.0 -
Except that they said it themselves
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/yes-best-for-industry-in-long-term-says-fishermens-group-101833.html#ixzz0S6f3iD5v
edit: They're pissed off about the common fisheries policy but they've acknowledged that a yes vote is their best chance of getting it changed
Thats not the average fishermans opinion.
Watch the election results.0 -
Really-Stressed wrote: »We have (had) a tiny fishing fleet. The spanish have a huge one. They gained more.Really-Stressed wrote: »If there are any members of fishing communities reading your posts you will turn them into no voters. By arrogantly dismissing their concerns and the unemployment the eu, which we gained much from has created.
I'm not arrogantly dismissing anything, they said themselves that a yes vote is their best hope of getting the fisheries policy changed. A no vote, while showing that they're one of hundreds of groups who have a personal reason for voting no, does not bring them any closer to resolving the situationReally-Stressed wrote: »How does a yes or no veto ensure that all of the nuances of your opinion are in the final result?
Because if it doesn't have all the nuances you veto it
Ireland will be involved in the drafting of the policy btw. A lot of people seem to think that the EU decrees things to Ireland but we have representatives just like every other countryReally-Stressed wrote: »Yes it is.
Evidence? Or is it just paranoia?0 -
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I will be ignoring the untruthful bullsh** of the far right, the far left and the loonies. It will be a solid yes from me along with the majority on October 2nd.0
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BlitzKrieg wrote: »Actually the cost of the EU is surprisingly low for an organisation of its size, I think the figure is somewhere around 1 and a half times the cost of the irish civil service (cant remember which thread it was with the figures).
When you consider the size of the EU it costs less to run it then to run say the UK or France both with much bigger civil services then Ireland.
I dont understand this, I've been breaking my back going over sources and material for the comments you have been making for the last 3 pages and yet you say we go for petty insults and empty slogans. You get one quote from Giscard. I got 3 and one of them was a video. I research a quote you have posted twice and cannot find the source for it, despite the Guardian keeping records from 1998. I have done alot more then insult and put out empty slogans Thank you very much.
If using google and triping through you tube is breaking your back then fair play to you.0 -
Really-Stressed wrote: »Posting the last few comments here in a commercial fishing online bulletin board.
Pure gold.
Thanks for the NO voters Sam.
You're more than welcome to post them. All I have said is that Fisherman's groups acknowledge that a yes vote is their best hope and given the correct figures on how much has been taken from our waters and how much we've taken from the waters of others. If the truth gets them angry enough to shoot themselves in the foot by voting no to something that will make it easier to get the changes they want, well that's their problem isn't it?0 -
Sam fair play to you. How dare they not know whats good for them. simpeltons.
Role on the NO votes.:D
Reasons to vote no as approved by boards.ie in their new official facts on the Lisbon treaty thread.
reasons to vote no to lisbon...
halves irelands voting while doubling that of germany
opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interests
diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner
enshrines eu as superior to irish law
creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europe
hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brussles
gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment
(Thats a copy and paste from the 'facts thread they have set up, seems relativley correct)0 -
Really-Stressed wrote: »If using google and triping through you tube is breaking your back then fair play to you.
Do you want him to do heavy lifting or something
You accused us of "resorting to petty insults and empty slogans in response" but that's not what's been happening here.0 -
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Really-Stressed wrote: »Reasons to vote no as approved by boards.ie in their new official facts on the Lisbon treaty thread.Really-Stressed wrote: »halves irelands voting while doubling that of germanyReally-Stressed wrote: »opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interestsReally-Stressed wrote: »diminishes our power to nominate our european commissionerReally-Stressed wrote: »enshrines eu as superior to irish lawReally-Stressed wrote: »creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europeReally-Stressed wrote: »hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brusslesReally-Stressed wrote: »gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment
I would go into more detail on how each of those things is not true but I think I'll save the effort for someone who will appreciate it0 -
Really-Stressed wrote: »Sam fair play to you. How dare they not know whats good for them. simpeltons.
Role on the NO votes.:D
Reasons to vote no as approved by boards.ie in their new official facts on the Lisbon treaty thread.
reasons to vote no to lisbon...
halves irelands voting while doubling that of germany
opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interests
diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner
enshrines eu as superior to irish law
creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europe
hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brussles
gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment
(Thats a copy and paste from the 'facts thread they have set up, seems relativley correct)
Except, most of them aren't.Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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There is no clause in the Constitutions of France and Holland that required a referendum for the Constitution but don't for Lisbon. So the point about it being reworded to avoid referenda is just bollox.
I posted this a few pages back but I think it most have got lost in the middle of the fish quota debate. Surely at this stage you must agree that the Lisbon Treaty is substantially the same as the Constitution but without reference to state like terminology thus allowing ratification by government instead of referendum of the people?whatisayis wrote: »Ok guys here are some links regarding the ratification by the Dutch and the French:
http://euobserver.com/9/24763
"The likelihood of the Netherlands holding a referendum on the EU's Reform Treaty decreased Thursday (13 September) after the Dutch government was told by its highest advisory body that a poll is not necessary.
A key report by the Council of State, the Dutch government's highest advisory body, says there is no legal need for a referendum since the new treaty does not include "constitutional" elements, according to Dutch media."
http://www.france24.com/en/20080204-french-parliament-lays-groundwork-eu-treaty-eu-treaty
"The French parliament voted Monday to revise the constitution, a key step towards adopting the new EU reform treaty, at a special congress at the Chateau de Versailles.
French and Dutch voters rejected the European Union's draft constitution in 2005, plunging the bloc into several years of institutional gridlock.
Signed in Lisbon last month, the new EU charter is a watered-down version of the doomed constitution, aimed at streamlining decision-making in the bloc.
President Nicolas Sarkozy, who championed its adoption, campaigned for it to be ratified by parliament, rather than risk a second referendum as demanded by the left-wing opposition."0 -
whatisayis wrote: »I posted this a few pages back but I think it most have got lost in the middle of the fish quota debate. Surely at this stage you must agree that the Lisbon Treaty is substantially the same as the Constitution but without reference to state like terminology thus allowing ratification by government instead of referendum of the people?
Why dont you look thru previous threads where this has been dealt about a dozen times?
search is in top right of all pages0 -
Why dont you look thru previous threads where this has been dealt about a dozen times?
search is in top right of all pages
Because I have looked through previous threads and they all say the same thing - in essence that the French and Dutch ratified the Treaty because it was not a rehash of the Constitution. The links I posted seem to disprove that position.0 -
800 years of fighting for power here and people want to hand it away again now served up on a nice platter.
I saw a great poster in town today "Lisbon 2 from the brains behind recession" VOTE NO.0 -
Johnnnybravo wrote: »800 years of fighting for power here and people want to hand it away again now served up on a nice platter.
I saw a great poster in town today "Lisbon 2 from the brains behind recession" VOTE NO.
Sigh
UKIP are sending leaflets to all home
they dont have single irish representative
by voting NO you are helping this British party
i hope you are aware of the irony
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IgnatiusPop wrote: »Actually guys - My Bad! Forget I even posted that one. I had originally spoken to the No guys in person, and had heard debates online and on radio with the Yes groups. I'v gone and spoken to the two groups today and put these questions to them, and the Yes group seem to be acknowledging what you've said, and the No side grudgingly so to a certain extent, but they reference other issues such as militarisation of the EU etc. So I'll admit that after that Im tempted to get back on the fence.
Ok - so if the guarentees from the EU are only going to be implemented when either Croatia or Iceland join the EU, then what happens in the mean time? Either one of those countries could take another year or two to join. So if Lisbon II passes and is put into effect, and we have to wait until that happens, are we exposed to any new risks? Do they just come over to a country of their choice and sign an agreement for us, like they did in Edinburgh for Denmark?
Hi Ignatius Pop,
As far as I know, the guarantees are already in effect (since they say Lisbon won't do such and such if it's ratified), but they'll be turned into protocols as well, to make them part of EU law (since now they're legally binding under international law, and turning them into a protocol will make them binding under EU law too, if you get my drift).
In the meantime, the Treaty would take precedence over the guarantees if they conflicted, but it's pretty much been established that they don't. Otherwise, how could they be made into protocols, without actually changing the Treaty?0 -
IgnatiusPop wrote: »Actually guys - My Bad! Forget I even posted that one. I had originally spoken to the No guys in person, and had heard debates online and on radio with the Yes groups. I'v gone and spoken to the two groups today and put these questions to them, and the Yes group seem to be acknowledging what you've said, and the No side grudgingly so to a certain extent, but they reference other issues such as militarisation of the EU etc. So I'll admit that after that Im tempted to get back on the fence.
Ok - so if the guarentees from the EU are only going to be implemented when either Croatia or Iceland join the EU, then what happens in the mean time? Either one of those countries could take another year or two to join. So if Lisbon II passes and is put into effect, and we have to wait until that happens, are we exposed to any new risks? Do they just come over to a country of their choice and sign an agreement for us, like they did in Edinburgh for Denmark?
Not necessary, because that's what has already been done. The guarantees are of exactly the same form as the Edinburgh Agreements - international agreements. They come into force the moment Lisbon is ratified - if Lisbon is not ratified, they are voided. By the way, it's worth pointing out that the guarantees don't just apply to Lisbon, they apply to the EU Treaties (TEU and TFEU), so that if Lisbon is ratified, the guarantees cover the whole existing treaties as well.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
whatisayis wrote: »I posted this a few pages back but I think it most have got lost in the middle of the fish quota debate. Surely at this stage you must agree that the Lisbon Treaty is substantially the same as the Constitution but without reference to state like terminology thus allowing ratification by government instead of referendum of the people?
I had a look for the french constitutional changes. Its interesting reading overall.
Anyway I found the french Constitution and using internet archive been looking at the comparisons on the changes to the constitution over the years
First of all this is the french constitution in 2002 on the EUTITLE XV - ON THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES AND THE EUROPEAN UNION
Article 88-1
The Republic shall participate in the European Communities and in the European Union constituted by States that have freely chosen, by virtue of the treaties that established them, to exercise some of their powers in common.
Article 88-2
Subject to reciprocity and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty on European Union signed on 7 February 1992, France agrees to the transfer of powers necessary for the establishment of European economic and monetary union.
Subject to the same reservation and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty establishing the European Community, as amended by the Treaty signed on 2 October 1997, the transfer of powers necessary for the determination of rules concerning freedom of movement for persons and related areas may be agreed.
Article 88-3
Subject to reciprocity and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty on European Union signed on 7 February 1992, the right to vote and stand as a candidate in municipal elections shall be granted only to citizens of the Union residing in France. Such citizens shall neither exercise the office of mayor or deputy mayor nor participate in the designation of Senate electors or in the election of senators. An institutional Act passed in identical terms by the two assemblies shall determine the manner of implementation of this article.
Article 88-4
The Government shall lay before the National Assembly and the Senate any drafts of or proposals for instruments of the European Communities or the European Union containing provisions which are matters for statute as soon as they have been transmitted to the Council of the European Union. It may also lay before them other drafts of or proposals for instruments or any document issuing from a European Union institution.
In the manner laid down by the rules of procedure of each assembly, resolutions may be passed, even if Parliament is not in session, on the drafts, proposals or documents referred to in the preceding paragraph.
link: http://web.archive.org/web/20020806051610/http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp
No process on how treaties should be ratified.
In 2005 the change in the article you mentioned was introduced
so the constitution changed to this:TITLE XV - on the European Communities and the European Union [1]
Article 88-1
The Republic shall participate in the European Communities and in the European Union constituted by States that have freely chosen, by virtue of the treaties that established them, to exercise some of their powers in common.
It shall participate in the European Union in the conditions provided for by the Treaty establishing a Constitution for Europe signed on 29 October 2004.
Article 88-2
Subject to reciprocity and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty on European Union signed on 7 February 1992, France agrees to the transfer of powers necessary for the establishment of European economic and monetary union.
Subject to the same reservation and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty establishing the European Community, as amended by the Treaty signed on 2 October 1997, the transfer of powers necessary for the determination of rules concerning freedom of movement for persons and related areas may be agreed.
Statutes shall determine the rules relating to the European arrest warrant pursuant to acts adopted under the Treaty on European Union.
Article 88-3
Subject to reciprocity and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty on European Union signed on 7 February 1992, the right to vote and stand as a candidate in municipal elections shall be granted only to citizens of the Union residing in France. Such citizens shall neither exercise the office of mayor or deputy mayor nor participate in the designation of Senate electors or in the election of senators. An institutional Act passed in identical terms by the two assemblies shall determine the manner of implementation of this article.
Article 88-4
The Government shall lay before the National Assembly and the Senate draft proposals for legislation of the European Union together with drafts of or proposals for acts of the European Communities or the European Union containing provisions which are matters for statute as soon as they have been transmitted to the Council of the European Union. It may also lay before them other drafts of or proposals for acts or any document issuing from a European Union institution.
In the manner laid down by the rules of procedure of each assembly, resolutions may be passed, even if Parliament is not in session, on the drafts, proposals or documents referred to in the preceding paragraph.
Article 88-5
Any legislative proposal authorising the ratification of a Treaty pertaining to the accession of a State to the European Union and to the European Communities shall be submitted to referendum by the President of the Republic.
link: http://web.archive.org/web/20061205034257/http://assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp#TITLE%20XV
Ok some major changes here that must be noted.
first of all 88-1 has to go, it is tied directly to the flaw of the EU constitution in that its a a whole new document that replaces the treaties, since there is no constitution it will have to be amended back to what it was before hand or to something new.
88-5 is of course the big change, but it is very clear on one point: accession, a French referendum only applies if another state is joining the EU.
There is of course nothing saying that a referendum is required for a normal amendment treaty. So legally there has never been the need for a french referendum unless a new member state is joining.
Now the current French constitution seems to be in the middle of an amendment so this is slightly confusing:Title XV
ON THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES AND THE EUROPEAN UNION
ON THE EUROPEAN UNION(1)
Article 88-1.
The Republic shall participate in the European Communities and in the European Union constituted by States which have freely chosen by virtue of the treaties which established them to exercise some of their powers in common.
It shall participate in the European Union in the conditions provided for by the Treaty of Lisbon amending the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community, signed on 13 December, 2007.
Article 88-1(1).
The Republic shall participate in the European Union constituted by States which have freely chosen to exercise some of their powers in common by virtue of the Treaty on European Union and of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, as they result from the treaty signed in Lisbon on 13 December, 2007.
Article 88-2.
Subject to reciprocity and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty on European Union signed on 7 February 1992, France agrees to the transfer of powers necessary for the establishment of the European Economic and Monetary Union.
Subject to the same reservation and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty establishing the European Community, as amended by the Treaty signed on 2 October 1997, the transfer of powers necessary for the determination of rules concerning freedom of movement for persons and related areas may be agreed.
Statutes shall determine the rules relating to the European arrest warrant pursuant to acts adopted under the Treaty of European Union.
Article 88-2(1).
Statutes shall determine the rules relating to the European arrest warrant pursuant to acts adopted by the institutions on the European Union.
Article 88-3.
Subject to reciprocity and in accordance with the terms of the Treaty on European Union signed on 7 February 1992, the right to vote and stand as a candidate in municipal elections shall be granted only to citizens of the Union residing in France. Such citizens shall neither hold the office of Mayor or Deputy Mayor nor participate in the designation of Senate electors or in the election of Senators. An Institutional Act passed in identical terms by the two Houses shall determine the manner of implementation of this article.
Article 88-4.
The Government shall lay before the National Assembly and the Senate drafts of or proposals for Acts of the European Communities and the European Union containing provisions which are of a statutory nature as soon as they have been transmitted to the Council of the European Union. It may also lay before them other drafts of or proposals for Acts or any instrument issuing from a European Union Institution.
In the manner laid down by the Rules of Procedure of each House, resolutions may be passed, even if Parliament is not in session, on the drafts, proposals or instruments referred to in the preceding paragraph.
A committee in charge of European affairs shall be set up in each of the Houses of Parliament.
Article 88-4(1).
The government shall lay before the National Assembly and the Senate drafts of European legislative acts as well as other drafts of or proposals for acts of the European Union as soon as they have been transmitted to the Council of the European Union.
In the manner laid down by the Rules of Procedure of each House, European resolutions may be passed, even if Parliament is not in session, on the drafts or proposals referred to in the preceding paragraph, as well as on any document issuing from a European Union Institution.
A committee in charge of European affairs shall be set up in each of the Houses of Parliament.
Article 88-5.
Any Government Bill authorizing the ratification of a treaty pertaining to the accession of a state to the European Union and to the European Communities shall be submitted to referendum by the President of the Republic.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, by passing a motion adopted in identical terms in each House by a three-fifths majority, Parliament may authorize the passing of the Bill according to the procedure provided for in paragraph three of article 89.
Article 88-5(1).
Any Government Bill authorizing the ratification of a treaty pertaining to the accession of a state to the European Union shall be submitted to referendum by the President of the Republic.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, by passing a motion adopted in identical terms in each House by a three-fifths majority, Parliament may authorize the passing of the Bill according to the procedure provided for in paragraph three of article 89.
Article 88-6(1).
The National Assembly or the Senate may issue a reasoned opinion as to the conformity of a draft proposal for a European Act with the principle of subsidiarity. Said opinion shall be addressed by the President of the House involved to the Presidents of the European Parliament, the Council of the European Union and the European Commission. The Government shall be informed of said opinion.
Each House may institute proceedings before the Court of Justice of the European Union against a European Act for non-compliance with the principle of subsidiarity. Such proceedings shall be referred to the Court of Justice of the European Union by the Government.
For the purpose of the foregoing, resolutions may be passed, even if Parliament is not in session, in the manner set down by the Rules of Procedure of each House for the tabling and discussion thereof. Such proceedings shall be obligatory upon the request of sixty Members of the National Assembly or sixty Senators.
constitution today: http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/english/8ab.asp#XVII
ok there are quite a few (1) hanging around rewordings of some of the articles.2° The versions in italics of the title of Title XV and articles 88-1, 88-2, 88-4, 88-5, 88-6, 88-7 will come into effect upon the coming into force of the Treaty of Lisbon, amending the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty establishing the European Community, signed on December 13, 2007 by virtue of the article 2 of the Constitutional Act no. 2008-103 of February 4, 2008 and by virtue of the article 47 of the Constitutional Act no. 2008-724 of July 23, 2008 ;
So the ones without (1) is the current French constitution and the one's with (1) will be the woridng post lisbon. Seems the french were a bit more cautious about amending the constitution this time. To put it simply the ones with (1) are the changes being made in the link you provided, they match the date (feb 2008) of the article.
So at the moment again the french constitutional law is ONLY WHEN A NEW MEMBER STATE IS JOINING THE EU do the french have a referendum. THe update this time though is its made clear what happens when there is no accession. Its ratified by parliament via the french process outline in article 89.
New section 88-6 will be added as well which outlines the French process for the new subsidery aspect of lisbon.
So the conclusion is that before the european constitution the French process for ratifying european treaties was not defined, instead it was left to the policies of article 89 which applies to all amendments. WHen the french did define a process even before Lisbon they put it down that referendums were only needed when new member states joined.Title XVI
ON AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION
Article 89.
The President of the Republic, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, and Members of Parliament alike shall have the right to initiate amendments to the Constitution.
A Government or a Private Member’s Bill to amend the Constitution must be considered within the time limits set down in the third paragraph of article 42 and be passed by the two Houses in identical terms. The amendment shall take effect after approval by referendum.
However, a Government Bill to amend the Constitution shall not be submitted to referendum where the President of the Republic decides to submit it to Parliament convened in Congress; the Government Bill to amend the Constitution shall then be approved only if it is passed by a three-fifths majority of the votes cast. The Bureau of the Congress shall be that of the National Assembly.
No amendment procedure shall be commenced or continued where the integrity of national territory is placed in jeopardy.
The republican form of government shall not be the object of any amendment.0 -
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Johnnnybravo wrote: »I hope you are aware of voting yes to giving power to some suit that doesnt give a sh%t about this country.0
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Quote from ReallyStressed:
Sam fair play to you. How dare they not know whats good for them. simpeltons.
Role on the NO votes.:D
Reasons to vote no as approved by boards.ie in their new official facts on the Lisbon treaty thread.
reasons to vote no to lisbon...
halves irelands voting while doubling that of germany
True. Yes side claim this isn't the whole story (and I suppose it isn't) but I like the yes-side that ignore the issue altogether :rolleyes:
opens a door to interference in tax and other key economic interests
Not so much in terms of tax. Economic - yes (banking). EU already has direct control of indirect taxation.
diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner
Correct. Now subject to 'suggestion'
enshrines eu as superior to irish law
Already does. Only now on more issues.
creates and unelected president and a foreign minister of europe
Correct - new role of president. Foreign minister is not the official name.
hands over power in 60 areas of policy to brussles
A bit ambiguous but largely accurate (if you are going to lump in veto removal)
gives exclusive competence to brussels over international trade and foreign direct investment
Already has control over international trade between member states. No new competencies, as far as I know, concerning direct investment.
(Thats a copy and paste from the 'facts thread they have set up, seems relativley correct)0 -
And err... why is this poll closed?
Maybe it is a 'Politics.ie' conspiracy
Funny that Politics.ie had the exact same theory about outside interference when their own poll had a temporary yes lead.0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »And err... why is this poll closed?
Maybe it is a 'Politics.ie' conspiracy
Funny that Politics.ie had the exact same theory about outside interference when their own poll had a temporary yes lead.
Maybe it had a time limit on it?
AFAIK, when you create a poll, you can set a date for it to expire by.0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »diminishes our power to nominate our european commissioner
Correct. Now subject to 'suggestion'
OK, I'll ignore the rest, concentrate on this one.
So, if Bertie or Mary Harney get nominated and it is refused, what happens?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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RandomName2 wrote: »And err... why is this poll closed?
Maybe it is a 'Politics.ie' conspiracy
Funny that Politics.ie had the exact same theory about outside interference when their own poll had a temporary yes lead.
Well that means there is a conspiracy on both sides!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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OK, I'll ignore the rest, concentrate on this one.
So, if Bertie or Mary Harney get nominated and it is refused, what happens?
Back to the drawing board. As it stands that can currently happen if Ireland chooses a Commissioner that the EU Parliament rejects (That actually has happened - albeit not with Ireland). If, let's say Ireland choose its Commisioner by direct election, it would probably be rejected :pac:
Okay - definitely.0 -
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