Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

MrMatisse

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No everyone's entitled to their opinion. For example if I say that U2 are good, that's an opinion but if I say that Bono is a 3 foot tall chinese woman that's not an opinion, it's factually incorrect, just like when someone says that the guarantees aren't legally binding



I wonder where all those foreign investors will get the idea that Ireland are anti-EU :rolleyes:

If you think that you shouldn't be voting no to the Lisbon treaty, you should be campaigning for Ireland to withdraw from the EU

1) PLEASE QUOTE WHERE I SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE GUARANTEES?

2) I AM NOT!! ANTI EU!. I am against this treaty. The way the EU is heading, into foreign policy, social policy etc is not what it should be doing. It should be a lean free trade organisation which does not tie up millions in beuracrats coming up with diplomatic protocals which are best left to individual nations who have very different needs and goals.

Being against the Lisbon treaty is not anti EU. Every time they say jump i dont have to say how high!

Sam Vimes

Mayoegian wrote: »

Because they solely benefit from it, Not the Irish people.

Yes indeed, everyone's in on the conspiracy and trying to hide the truth about this treaty except the people who've been against the EU since we joined

MrMatisse

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Yes indeed, everyone's in on the conspiracy and trying to hide the truth about this treaty except the people who've been against the EU since we joined

"Transforming the European Union into a single State with one army, one constitution and one foreign policy is the critical challenge of the age"
Joschka Fischer, German Foreign Minister The Guardian, London, 26th November 1998

Its not a conspiracy. You say this to associate the NO side with all sorts of nutters. Some have genuine concerns that arrogant Yes voters dont address or discuss.

BlitzKrieg

"Transforming the European Union into a single State with one army, one constitution and one foreign policy is the critical challenge of the age"
Joschka Fischer, German Foreign Minister The Guardian, London, 26th November 1998.

Got a source for that?

Cause I am looking a the guardian website and there is no 26th november 1998 article with Joschka Fischer. The closest are: http://browse.guardian.co.uk/search?search=Joschka+Fischer&year=1998&sitesearch-radio=guardian&go-guardian=Search

And I cant find that quote in any of those articles.

ei.sdraob

Really-Stressed wrote: »

"Transforming the European Union into a single State with one army, one constitution and one foreign policy is the critical challenge of the age"
Joschka Fischer, German Foreign Minister The Guardian, London, 26th November 1998

heres a quote from

Declan Ganley

A United States of Europe, structured properly, could benefit Europeans and the world.

but wait theres more from himself

A federal Europe is a pretty good idea, if it possessed an accountable administration with a clear European identity and position on the world stage; had vested in it only those key disciplines that are best and most efficiently managed on a European level; embraced Europe’s diversity; and devolved as many matters as possible to Europe’s regions.

In case you weren't aware

Declan Ganley and Libertas are campaigning on the NO side


/

Sam Vimes

Really-Stressed wrote: »

1) PLEASE QUOTE WHERE I SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE GUARANTEES?

I posted telling someone that the guarantees are binding and you said

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Here, here, how dare the plebs be allowed have their own opinion.

Typical ' you just dont understand' view from the the yes side

So that's where you said something about the guarantees.

Really-Stressed wrote: »

2) I AM NOT!! ANTI EU!. I am against this treaty. The way the EU is heading, into foreign policy, social policy etc is not what it should be doing. It should be a lean free trade organisation which does not tie up millions in beuracrats coming up with diplomatic protocals which are best left to individual nations who have very different needs and goals.

Being against the Lison treaty is not anti EU. Every thime they say jump i dont have to say how high!

But the treaty doesn't do any of the stuff you're talking about and you think that France and Germany are trying to achieve a superstate by stealth. You sound pretty damn anti-EU to me and that's the impression I'd get if I was a businessman looking to locate in Ireland. Consequently I'd set up in a country that wasn't so paranoid about the intentions of the EU and was likely to go along with it in future.

You know that many Irish people were involved in the negotiation of this treaty right?

MrMatisse

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I posted telling someone that the guarantees are binding and you said
So that's where you said something about the guarantees.

But the treaty doesn't do any of the stuff you're talking about and you think that France and Germany are trying to achieve a superstate by stealth. You sound pretty damn anti-EU to me and that's the impression I'd get if I was a businessman looking to locate in Ireland. Consequently I'd set up in a country that wasn't so paranoid about the intentions of the EU and was likely to go along with it in future.

You know that many Irish people were involved in the negotiation of this treaty right?

I said nothing about guarantees i opposed arrogant comments against others.

Anti EU?????

I have benefited greatly from the EU. If it starts to go in a direction i dont like i am going to say that and not just follow it like a lemming.

Irish people were invovced......so?

Sam Vimes

Really-Stressed wrote: »

"Transforming the European Union into a single State with one army, one constitution and one foreign policy is the critical challenge of the age"
Joschka Fischer, German Foreign Minister The Guardian, London, 26th November 1998

Its not a conspiracy. You say this to associate the NO side with all sorts of nutters. Some have genuine concerns that arrogant Yes voters dont address or discuss.

That's one man. Yes there are some people in Europe who want that but far more people who don't and the wonder of democracy is that the people who don't win. The EU constitution was changed because it contained state-like references which the French and the Dutch didn't approve of so all such references were removed. And the German supreme court have ruled that this treaty does not come near to creating a superstate. But they're the ones trying to force it on us so we can't trust them :rolleyes:

partholon

oi.

why did the poll close?

theres still a week to go and i never got the chance to vote thanks to crap access.

Mayoegian

Sam Vimes wrote: »

No everyone's entitled to their opinion. For example if I say that U2 are good, that's an opinion but if I say that Bono is a 3 foot tall chinese woman that's not an opinion, it's factually incorrect, just like when someone says that the guarantees aren't legally binding



I wonder where all those foreign investors will get the idea that Ireland are anti-EU :rolleyes:

If you think that you shouldn't be voting no to the Lisbon treaty, you should be campaigning for Ireland to withdraw from the EU

You speak like we OWE something to the EU! We have lost over 200 billion euro in the fishing industry to the EU. Sure we have benefited by getting funding for road infrastructure etc. We do not owe anything to the EU. We will not be thrown out of the EU, they will not punish us in some way and the arguments the yes side are giving for passing the treaty are nothing but manipulative lies to try and get their own way. The government are a huge part of why we're in the recession, so why would people trust them again to do the best for ireland when they quite simply cant, because they're incompetent, lying people who are only out to gain for themselves and not for ireland.

MrMatisse

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Got a source for that?

Cause I am looking a the guardian website and there is no 26th november 1998 article with Joschka Fischer. The closest are: http://browse.guardian.co.uk/search?search=Joschka+Fischer&year=1998&sitesearch-radio=guardian&go-guardian=Search

And I cant find that quote in any of those articles.

No newspaper holds ten years worth of archives online.

See my sig, same sort of thing there.

MrMatisse

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That's one man. Yes there are some people in Europe who want that but far more people who don't and the wonder of democracy is that the people who don't win. The EU constitution was changed because it contained state-like references which the French and the Dutch didn't approve of so all such references were removed. And the German supreme court have ruled that this treaty does not come near to creating a superstate. But they're the ones trying to force it on us so we can't trust them :rolleyes:

No the german supreme court ruled that they dont have to vote on it.

Sam Vimes

Really-Stressed wrote: »

I said nothing about guarantess i opposed arrogant comments against others.

It's not arrogance, the word you're looking for is correct. It's the same way I would talk to someone who said that Bono is a 3 foot tall Chinese woman. I would tell them they are wrong and leave them under no allusions that Bono might in fact be a 3 foot tall Chinese woman.

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Anti EU?????

I have benefited greatly from the EU. If it starts to go in a direction i dont like i am going to say that and not just follow it like a lemming.

But it's not going to become a superstate and believing that it is comes across as both paranoid and anti-EU. These people are our neighbours, they are not trying to rule us. The double majority QMV rules contain a specific clause to prevent a few countries with large populations overpowering lots of cmaller ones. You might say that it will get closer to a superstate but if I don't want to live in Dublin that shouldn't prevent me moving from Mayo to Westmeath on the basis that it's closer to Dublin

MrMatisse

Sam Vimes wrote: »

It's not arrogance, the word you're looking for is correct. It's the same way I would talk to someone who said that Bono is a 3 foot tall Chinese woman. I would tell them they are wrong and leave them under no allusions that Bono might in fact be a 3 foot tall Chinese woman.



But it's not going to become a superstate and believing that it is comes across as both paranoid and anti-EU. These people are our neighbours, they are not trying to rule us. The double majority QMV rules contain a specific clause to prevent a few countries with large populations overpowering lots of cmaller ones. You might say that it will get closer to a superstate but if I don't want to live in Dublin that shouldn't prevent me moving from Mayo to Westmeath on the basis that it's closer to Dublin

PLEAE QUOTE WHERE I SAID THE GUARANTEES ARE NOT LEGALLY BINDING OR LIKE THE MOD WHO SAID THE SAME MAYBE CORRECT YOUR POSTS.

Sam Vimes

Really-Stressed wrote: »

No the german supreme court ruled that they dont have to vote on it.

In fact referendums are illegal in Germany and have been for quite some time because they were used by Hitler to increase his powers. Such a ruling would be completely unnecessary

Dinner

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Id say its probably more likely given the former president of France, who probably knows a thing or two about the French constitution feels that their constitution would be infringed, that their is something in their constitution which causes problems.

How come nobody has pointed it out yet?

Tell you what, I'll give you the answer

THERE'S NOTHING IN IT THAT SAYS THEY MUST HAVE A REFERENDUM.

Hope this clears it up.

MrMatisse

Dinner wrote: »

How come nobody has pointed it out yet?

Tell you what, I'll give you the answer

THERE'S NOTHING IN IT THAT SAYS THEY MUST HAVE A REFERENDUM.

Hope this clears it up.

Former President of France musnt have a clue so.

What an idiot, he too should rely on a random punter on boards.ie for advice on the French constitution,

Sam Vimes

Really-Stressed wrote: »

PLEAE QUOTE WHERE I SAID THE GUARANTEES ARE NOT LEGALLY BINDING OR LIKE THE MOD WHO SAID THE SAME MAYBE CORRECT YOUR POSTS.

Putting it in capitals doesn't make it correct.

I said emphatically that the guarantees are legally binding and you responded "Here, here, how dare the plebs be allowed have their own opinion."

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact and one that he is wrong on. It's not arrogant to correctly and factually state that someone is wrong. Should I pretend that he's not wrong so as not to offend people?

MrMatisse

Sam Vimes wrote: »

In fact referendums are illegal in Germany and have been for quite some time because they were used by Hitler to increase his powers. Such a ruling would be completely unnecessary

They have a different constitutional mechanism to alter their constitution. When certain changes are required the people must vote on it with the approval of the parliament.

(Great debate by the way)

Dinner

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Former President of France musnt have a clue so.

What an idiot, he too should rely on a random punter on boards.ie for advice on the French constitution,

Ok, let's 'pretend' that there's some mystical clause in the French Constitution that says they must have a referendum for a Constitutional Document but not for a reform treaty, where's your quote for the Dutch?

Or will you contine to do argument by quotation showing you're complete lack of knowledge in the area apart from some out of context quotes from politicians (who I thought were untrustworthy).

By the way, did you even bother looking for the thread that goes into detail on his quote?

MrMatisse

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Putting it in capitals doesn't make it correct.

I said emphatically that the guarantees are legally binding and you responded "Here, here, how dare the plebs be allowed have their own opinion."

It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of fact and one that he is wrong on. It's not arrogant to correctly and factually state that someone is wrong. Should I pretend that he's not wrong so as not to offend people?

You said i said something i didnt.

i referred to the rest of your post with you are extrapulating one line and taking it out of context.

MrMatisse

Dinner wrote: »

Ok, let's 'pretend' that there's some mystical clause in the French Constitution that says they must have a referendum for a Constitutional Document but not for a reform treaty, where's your quote for the Dutch?

Or will you contine to do argument by quotation showing you're complete lack of knowledge in the area apart from some out of context quotes from politicians (who I thought were untrustworthy).

By the way, did you even bother looking for the thread that goes into detail on his quote?

ill have a look for a dutch quote since your falling back on your position that its not in the french constitution. Obviously the former president of france who drew up the treaty is unrelaible. I NEVER said politicians were untrustworthy, i am quoting them ffs.

There is no thread on Fischer however there is an interesting article on the author of the treaty on my sig.

Sam Vimes

Mayoegian wrote: »

You speak like we OWE something to the EU! We have lost over 200 billion euro in the fishing industry to the EU.

That's one of the biggest lies in this campaign. The correct figure including the Irish catch is about 8.5 billion:
http://www.talktoeu.ie/en/Policy-Areas/Fisheries/

Is it true that foreign fleets have taken €200 billion worth of fish from Irish waters?
No. The total value of fish taken from Irish waters between 1974 and 2004 was about €8.5 billion. This figure includes fish caught by both foreign and Irish boats.

Mayoegian wrote: »

Sure we have benefited by getting funding for road infrastructure etc. We do not owe anything to the EU. We will not be thrown out of the EU, they will not punish us in some way and the arguments the yes side are giving for passing the treaty are nothing but manipulative lies to try and get their own way.

No one's saying we'll be thrown out of the EU, we're saying that voting no to an EU treaty for the third time and appearing to be so terrified of all these things that the EU are going to do with us and incorrectly believing that they've taken 200 billion worth of fish makes us look like we're euro-sceptics and when businesses are looking to locate in a country because they're in the EU, they have the choice of a lot of countries that don't appear to be fighting against and paranoid about their neighbours

Mayoegian wrote: »

The government are a huge part of why we're in the recession, so why would people trust them again to do the best for ireland when they quite simply cant, because they're incompetent, lying people who are only out to gain for themselves and not for ireland.

You don't have to trust them, this is an EU treaty not an Irish government treaty. Get your information somewhere else, www.lisbontreaty2009.ie for example, the impartial referendum commission website

Dinner

Really-Stressed wrote: »

ill have a look for a dutch quote since your falling back on your position that its not in the french constitution. Obviously the former president of france who drew up the treaty is unrelaible. I NEVER said politicians were untrustworthy, i am quoting them ffs.

So you'll do research to prop up your arguments but not to find if your argument is correct. Interesting.

Tell you what. I'll even have a look for the Giscard d'Estaing thread for you.

Sam Vimes

Really-Stressed wrote: »

You said i said something i didnt.

i referred to the rest of your post with you are extrapulating one line and taking it out of context.

Would you like to retract your remark implying that I don't think people should be entitled to their opinions since the subject was not a matter of opinion and he was wrong on it?

BlitzKrieg

Really-Stressed wrote: »

No newspaper holds ten years worth of archives online.

except they have articles him from september the same year, from october and december. Yet they just happened to drop the one you are quoting.

If the archive is gone like you are saying then the question is. Where did you get the quote?

See my sig, same sort of thing there.

we could just listen to the man directly instead?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vTLnLci6MQ

K-9

Mayoegian wrote: »

You speak like we OWE something to the EU! We have lost over 200 billion euro in the fishing industry to the EU.

Tell me you checked this figure out.

MrMatisse

Dinner wrote: »

So you'll do research to prop up your arguments but not to find if your argument is correct. Interesting.

Tell you what. I'll even have a look for the Giscard d'Estaing thread for you.

No Need. Just read the article in my sig.

Not an expert on Dutch politics unfortunatly.

Amazing how all of your arguments have crumbled.

MrMatisse

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

except they have articles him from september the same year, from october and december. Yet they just happened to drop the one you are quoting.

If the archive is gone like you are saying then the question is. Where did you get the quote?





we could just listen to the man directly instead?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vTLnLci6MQ

Or we could read an article in a top newspaper below ( See sig) where he also said things.

Sam Vimes

K-9 wrote: »

Tell me you checked this figure out.

If he/she had checked it out he/she would know that it's made up and would not have posted it. But you know that :pac: