Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

The Volt

The best thing for workers would be the introduction of this social chapter surely? Add to this that John Monks, General Secretary of ETUC actually recommended a yes vote to all of the trade union officials as well. He did of course say he had a few issues with it, overall he was satisfied but nothing is perfect. Of course the 'no' campaigners picked these problems he had with it out of his report, highlighted these and ignored the fact that he supported it overall.
http://www.ictu.ie/press/2009/07/10/address-by-john-monks-general-secretary-etuc/

This is exactly the kind of shenanigans that the no side has carried out in this campaign and in previous ones. Mangaroosh in particular, I would love to hear your take on this seeing as how you're so quick to point out that the yes side is full of lies, manipulation and scaremongering. I'm dying to hear your justification for things like this.

Xcellor

I received some litreature from the No campaign the other day. It was insulting.

It had a picture of a turkey (the bird) to illustrate 65 million of them joining the EU.

Then they made the point that we might actually have to give money to the EU. Shock horror. After the billions Ireland had received from the EU... We might have to give something back!!!! Is the EU a charity??

Definitely voting Yes along with the rest of my family on Friday!

moondogspot

The majority of the Yes side are only voting Yes out of self-interest.

Definitely voting No. As are my parents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts,

cousins, friends, neighbours etc.;)

ei.sdraob

Xcellor wrote: »

I received some litreature from the No campaign the other day. It was insulting.

It had a picture of a turkey (the bird) to illustrate 65 million of them joining the EU.

agree its very racist, who the **** are the unelected British euroskeptics from UKIP to tell us how to vote and think

Xcellor wrote: »

Then they made the point that we might actually have to give money to the EU. Shock horror. After the billions Ireland had received from the EU... We might have to give something back!!!! Is the EU a charity??

Definitely voting Yes along with the rest of my family on Friday!

Actually ireland was never and will not be for a long time (in light of recent economic trouble)

a net contributor to the EU


we still to this date receive more money than we give


alot more


/

Xcellor

moondogspot wrote: »

Definitely voting No. As are my parents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts,

cousins, friends, neighbours etc.;)

That's what they tell you

RandomName2

Xcellor wrote: »

Then they made the point that we might actually have to give money to the EU. Shock horror. After the billions Ireland had received from the EU... We might have to give something back!!!! Is the EU a charity??

No. the EU is not a charity. We don't owe the EU anything. This is an economic arangement - not an issue of goodwill, handouts and favours. The EU is not meant to 'reward' Ireland for being scared into voting yes. The EU is not meant to punish Ireland for being naughty. This whole thing is nonsense. The REWARD the EU receives IS Ireland's economy being improved or recovering. This is not the time for Mercantalist economic backward-views. This is not the time to think that we are 'paying back' by voting yes.

Sam Vimes

moondogspot wrote: »

The majority of the Yes side are only voting Yes out of self-interest.

Definitely voting No. As are my parents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts,

cousins, friends, neighbours etc.;)

Yes that is why I vote yes to things, because they are in my interests

Are you voting no to spite yourself?

marco_polo

RandomName2 wrote: »

No. the EU is not a charity. We don't owe the EU anything. This is an economic arangement - not an issue of goodwill, handouts and favours. The EU is not meant to 'reward' Ireland for being scared into voting yes. The EU is not meant to punish Ireland for being naughty. This whole thing is nonsense. The REWARD the EU receives IS Ireland's economy being improved or recovering. This is not the time for Mercantalist economic backward-views. This is not the time to think that we are 'paying back' by voting yes.

You seem to be replying to what you wish the post said rather than what was actually written. At absolutely no stage was anybody advocating voting Yes to 'pay back' the EU, rather he was simply highlighting the mind bogglingly selfish attitude of advocating a No vote because we may one day become a net contributor.

drkpower

ei.sdraob wrote: »

such as?

Do you genuinely believe that the 'Yes' side are not engaging in exaggeration, misdirection and dishonesty? Its ok to support something without necessarily supporting everyone else who supports it.

There are many examples but the one that irritates me is the, at times, subtle, at other times, overt suggestions and insinuations that a 'No' vote:
1. Will result in the economy flatlining;
2. Will essentially result in us leaving the Euro and/or the EU (ie. Yes campaginers who tell us the reason to vote Yes is because the Euro/Europe has been good to us; what does that have to do with Lisbon?)
3. Will result in FDI going elsewhere.

I plan to vote 'Yes' but I dislike the holier than thou attitude of many Yes voters/campaigners when discussing the 'No'/Coir lies. Sure, Coir's lies are more overt and blatant but the above examples (and there are plenty more) are dishonest, at least, blatant lies, at worse.

I respect the views of the 'No' voters who can see through the Coir-style rubbish and base their votes on what the Treaty is and does; I feel sorry for the 'No' voters who swallow all the rubbish they are being fed - the corrollary is true also.

ei.sdraob

drkpower wrote: »

Do you genuinely believe that the 'Yes' side are not engaging in exaggeration, misdirection and dishonesty? Its ok to support something without necessarily supporting everyone else who supports it.

There are many examples but the one that irritates me is the, at times, subtle, at other times, overt suggestions and insinuations that a 'No' vote:
1. Will result in the economy flatlining;
2. Will essentially result in us leaving the Euro and/or the EU (ie. Yes campaginers who tell us the reason to vote Yes is because the Euro/Europe has been good to us; what does that have to do with Lisbon?)
3. Will result in FDI going elsewhere.

I plan to vote 'Yes' but I dislike the holier than thou attitude of many Yes voters/campaigners when discussing the 'No'/Coir lies. Sure, Coir's lies are more overt and blatant but the above examples (and there are plenty more) are dishonest, at least, blatant lies, at worse.

I respect the views of the 'No' voters who can see through the Coir-style rubbish and base their votes on what the Treaty is and does; I feel sorry for the 'No' voters who swallow all the rubbish they are being fed - the corrollary is true also.

can you provide references for these

because so far i only heard NO campaigners use them


/

drkpower

ei.sdraob wrote: »

can you provide references for these

because so far i only heard NO campaigners use them
/

If you haven't heard many Yes campaigners say/insinuate/suggest these things, then you are specifically choosing what to hear. That is the problem.

ei.sdraob

drkpower wrote: »

If you haven't heard many Yes campaigners say/insinuate/suggest these things, then you are specifically choosing what to hear. That is the problem.

I believe and always try to reference my opinions

so far i heard these, but only from NOooooes

/

marco_polo

drkpower wrote: »

If you haven't heard many Yes campaigners say/insinuate/suggest these things, then you are specifically choosing what to hear. That is the problem.

I am sorry but I have not heard anyone suggest that Ireland will be forced to leave the EU/Euro, apart from people claiming it as fact about the yes campaign. There are plenty of Yes campaign websites out their it should not be difficult to find a link an example to prove this point.

As for the economy and FDI, I guess not only are the main parties lying, but also the American Chamber of Commerce (who I would imagine know a thing or two about FDI) and the bulk of Irish Economists as well. Is it so absolutely inconcievable to you that they might not, in fact, be completely and utterly wrong on the matter?

Is there so little chance of them being right that you feel justified in calling them liars?

drkpower

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I believe and always try to reference my opinions

so far i heard these, but only from NOooooes

/

Many 'Yes' cmpaigners tell us that being in the EU/Euro is and has been 'good for us' and that this is a reason to vote Yes. The insinuation is that a No vote will affect either of these things. Which is clearly incorrect.

Just because it is not spelled out explicitly in a campaign flyer does not mean that the dishonesty is not there. As I said, the 'No' side is more blatant. But I find it disturbing that people who clearly know a lot about the Treaty are denying what I would consider the obvious game-playing dishonesty of the 'Yes' side when they try and frame the debate around Lisbon in terms of "Voting Yes for Europe" as if a 'No' vote means that we are saying 'No to Europe'.

Subtle dishonesty is clever, but it is dishonesty nonetheless.

MrMatisse

Certain yes posters seem to be on boards all the time.

Not the the press office of any of the yes campaigners are on this site in shifts to rebuff the no side.:D

some posters who joined a little over a month ago already have over 1000 posts nearly all related to the Lisbon treaty

Interesting........

K-9

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Certain yes posters seem to be on boards all the time.

Not the the press office of any of the yes campaigners are on this site in shifts to rebuff the no side.:D

some posters who joined a little over a month ago already have over 1000 posts nearly all related to the Lisbon treaty

Interesting........

And No posters tend to be on another site?

Your point is?

Or was it just a little dig to take away from the issues?

MrMatisse

just a curious observation.

The Volt

K-9 wrote: »

And No posters tend to be on another site?

Your point is?

Or was it just a little dig to take away from the issues?

Common enough at this stage K-9

P. Breathnach

RandomName2 wrote: »

... Saw a student dare question the yes side's Pat Cox and Professor Laffan - I also saw the abuse hurled at him by the two (I wouldn't be hopeful if I were he, of getting a good degree)...

That is an outrageous suggestion.

Spiritoftheseventies

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That is an outrageous suggestion.

Yes would not think student debating a particular point would affect finishing mark. How student debates it is another matter.

puffdragon

Poll closed with a no vote? I honestly didn't expect that on Boards, this forum is heavily weighted in one direction and to tell the truth it doesn't bode well for a yes vote on the 2nd,probably just as well we might keep some money in the country once this shower of fianna fail gangsters are marched out of the dail once and for all!!

Dinner

puffdragon wrote: »

Poll closed with a no vote? I honestly didn't expect that on Boards

I did. For the first vote boards showed a no vote aswell. But I don't consider that to be entirely reflective of the country. If it was, FG and Labour would have won the last General Election by a landslide.

The only Lisbon II poll that shows a yes win is the Athiesm & Agnosticism poll, and that is quite a large yes majority.

MrMatisse

Interesting article on the treaty from that bastion of left wing radicalism/nutters/creationists/ufo believers at the sunday business post

http://www.sbpost.ie/commentandanalysis/euro-federalists-bully-us-and-buy-our-vote-44635.html

Interesting to see how long it takes one of the yes team /fg youth press office members to respond. Surely they have changed shifts since this morning.

ei.sdraob we await your response!

puffdragon

Agnostics take part in poll's? Hmmm they should think about that!

The Volt

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Interesting article on the treaty from that bastion of left wing radicalism/nutters/creationists/ufo believers at the sunday business post

http://www.sbpost.ie/commentandanalysis/euro-federalists-bully-us-and-buy-our-vote-44635.html

Interesting to see how long it takes one of the yes team /fg youth press office members to respond. Surely they have changed shifts since this morning.

ei.sdraob we await your response!

Tom McGurk? The rugby guy? Seriously?

MrMatisse

Voltwad wrote: »

Tom McGurk? The rugby guy? Seriously?

Hes a journo who used to play rugby for Ireland hence he also commentates on that.

I suppose we should dismiss his views since he likes rugby and not the views of the Mod of the computer games and beards forum who posts here regularly as he would be much more worldly wise.

The Volt

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Hes a journo who used to play rugby for Ireland hence he also commentates on that.

I suppose we should dismiss his views since he likes rugby and not the views of the Mod of the computer games and beards forum who posts here regularly as he would be much more worldly wise.

His views should be taken as seriously as Michael O'Leary's

K-9

Seems he fell for the self amending lie too.

marco_polo

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Interesting article on the treaty from that bastion of left wing radicalism/nutters/creationists/ufo believers at the sunday business post

http://www.sbpost.ie/commentandanalysis/euro-federalists-bully-us-and-buy-our-vote-44635.html

Interesting to see how long it takes one of the yes team /fg youth press office members to respond. Surely they have changed shifts since this morning.

ei.sdraob we await your response!

How did he fit so many outright lies and mistruths in such a small space.

Small sample

"Lisbon will signal an increasing race to the bottom in wages and conditions."
"with EU enlargement beyond our ability to veto"
"Indeed, is there not an implied threat to quit Ireland in Intel’s demand for a Yes vote?"
"But at least this will be the very, very last time it will be required."

RCIRL

Their is something fundamentally wrong with this treaty and it should get the biggest No the Government has ever seen. If the treaty is so good for us, why do the Government have to force its benefits down our throat's with a campaign of blatant lies? If that's not bad enough they have to enlist two big business to add to the force, one of which is offering free flights to 100's of outside people to come over and force more yes's on us. Only a few months ago one of the business was totally against the treaty and joked about its creators. Another thing, the referendum commission is our sole source for unbiased information but they are pushing all the information toward a yes, you only have to make it as far as the ad campaign to see a big Y shaped by two hands, the yes theme carries through the entire web site and the television ads, its deceitful.

In the treaty noting is drafted up specifically to relate Ireland's jobs or the Irish economy, so why are the Government and its pals using these key areas to persuade our votes? They are taking advantage of our current situation to secure yes votes for possible benefits which may not relate to us.

If this was a Government election campaign would you believe the Governments campaign posters?

Why cant actual details within the treaty be used to show how it could be of benefit to Ireland, this would show an honest approach. We are voting on allowing an amendment to our constitution and this requires an honest approach.

The truth is, this treaty is another book that has been around before and rejected by other European member states its been re-worked to sneak its way out to save from being rejected again in those states. Thanks to our strong constitution it cant sneak past it.

We knew something wasn't right about it the first time and rejected it because of certain issues, its come back but those issues have not been attended to.

Most of you say that you shouldn't vote based on your personal situation its about the treaty and its contents etc. I'll say it before and I'll say it again it is because of the EU we are in this situation also because of the Governments dealings with the EU.

If this goes ahead we have until 2013 to lift ourselves out of this mess, if we don't do it by then we are in bigger trouble than ever before.

We need more time to go through the 300 pages that lend themselves to 3000 other pages to find out any true benefits which directly relate to our country.

For now, it is nothing but a rat we have smelled before but turned into a hamster, hamsters also stink.