Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

amacachi · 15-09-2009 09:09PM

My name is URL wrote: »

afaik it doesn't. Suicide is a very specific category.

There has to be solid evidence that the person intended to kill themselves so that no other inquests need to be made.

Seems at least one judge then doesn't like ruling suicide.

Dudess · 15-09-2009 09:10PM

Ideally it should be brought out into the open in the case of a high-profile tragedy, but the grieving family's needs are paramount - and some of them will not want the above. Call it what you will - further stigmatisation, a sense of "shame" perhaps (secularisation or no secularisation of Irish society, this still exists, especially for older generations), an ability to face the true horror (and it really, really is unfathomably horrific; even someone with the tiniest window into the devastation of it - probably most of us - will know this)... but if the family would prefer to play down the fact that suicide is what caused their loved one's death, then they should be respected.

irish_bob · 15-09-2009 09:13PM

Persiancowboy wrote: »

I have seen and read some absolute ****e on various forums in the past, but this "contribution" marks a new low.

On the same day that my father died suddenly (not by suicide) one of my best childhood friends, married with 3 children, killed himself by drowning. In the mortuary, in ajoining rooms, lay my father and my friend. While my father's death and funeral was difficult, the memories of my friend's removal and burial will stay with me forever. He lay peacefully in his coffin while all around him in the funeral parlour were scenes of utter devastation and incomprehension.

I challenge anyone to witness that and then write garbage like that quoted above.

Suicide is endemic in this country and we need to confront this reality instead of pretending we do not have a problem. I have just heard the 9 O Clock news on RTE and they are still talking about the "tragic circumstances" of Darren's death - the world and his wife are aware of these but RTE still won't mention the S word.

unless your friend was involved in organised crime , what have you to be annoyed about in relation to my post

Euro_Kraut · 15-09-2009 09:16PM

amacachi wrote: »

Seems at least one judge then doesn't like ruling suicide.

Think its more than just just one Judge. Look at the figures for Galway County.

2003 - 21
2004 - 8
2003 - 21

Another annomoly is Cork Country

2000 - 40
2001- 72
2002 - 40

Can the annual number of suicides in big countries double or half year on year? I doubt the variation can be explained by the population becoming more or less prone to suicide. Most likely its the corners/judge changing.

irish_bob · 15-09-2009 09:17PM

Splendour wrote: »

irish_bob, can you honestly say you think the world is a better place now to newmill's Aunt and Uncle and to the children of this man who took his own life?
Do you not think if he could have talked to someone about the way he was feeling and sorted it out then the world would be a better place for his family?

i said the world would be a better place if some people took thier own lives , the likes of hitler , john gilligan , josef fritzel , theese people could not have been happy or health of mind people , they would have saved the world and those in it a lot of heartache had they turned thier anger inwards , away with your insinuation that i wished some poster on this forum,s uncle killed himself

rgt320q · 15-09-2009 09:22PM

An unwillingness to openly discuss suicide does seem indeed to be fairly well engrained in the Irish consciousness, even to an extent, here on these forums. irish_bob has some rather unconvential/extreme opinions on the subject but from the tone of replies he's got, the majority here seem to be almost attacking him for them rather than simply disagreeing with him.

I've only read a few pages of this thread so far, so forgive me if I'm generalising excessively, but there seems to be a dogma on this subject which most posters are adhering to, that of "it's a tragedy that absolutely must be prevented; it's an illness we must raise awareness of". Now, while I'm not disagreeing with that, I do think that it is a tragedy when a good person dies, either by their own hand or other circumstances, there doesn't seem to be a lot of variance in that opinion. It doesn't seem to be allowed to read into or say here anything remotely positive on the matter, e.g., 'it's their choice, it should be respected" or "people should be allowed to judge the validity of life on their own terms" etc.

Just my €0.02 there.

amacachi · 15-09-2009 09:24PM

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Think its more than just just one Judge. Look at the figures for Galway County.

2003 - 21
2004 - 8
2003 - 21

Another annomoly is Cork Country

2000 - 40
2001- 72
2002 - 40

Can the annual number of suicides in big countries double or half year on year? I doubt the variation can be explained by the population becoming more or less prone to suicide. Most likely its the corners/judge changing.

Like I said, the stats are all over the place. The minimum I'd believe is whatever the given maximum is.

Sharpshooter · 15-09-2009 09:25PM

irish_bob wrote: »

unless your friend was involved in organised crime , what have you to be annoyed about in relation to my post

irish_bob wrote: »

i said the world would be a better place if some people took thier own lives , the likes of hitler , john gilligan , josef fritzel , theese people could not have been happy or health of mind people , they would have saved the world and those in it a lot of heartache had they turned thier anger inwards , away with your insinuation that i wished some poster on this forum,s uncle killed himself

Sigh!
You were warned. Banned.

titan18 · 15-09-2009 09:31PM

Persiancowboy wrote: »

Suicide is endemic in this country and we need to confront this reality instead of pretending we do not have a problem.

We have one of the lower suicide rates from industrialised countries actually.It's a huge problem in East Asia for example and in many European countries,it's worse than here.

People seem to be using this issue to have a dig at the Government and the Church and whilst the they can do more,they are not at blame.

Whilst I think it that the stigma of weakness associated with it should be removed and public awareness to be increased, you need to tackle the causes of the problem to effectively combat it.Bullying through school,the workplace,cyber-bullying are issues that need to be dealt with more effectively.There was the case in the US a few years ago of a girl who killed herself through cyber-bullying and with the prevalence of social media now,that has to be dealt with.

Social pressures like drinking etc.I'm a non-drinker and I know from my own experiences that there is pressure on me to conform.Lots of activities revolve around pubs and clubs,and especially at my age, it's hard to be a non-drinker when your friends are going out all the time.

People's attitudes need to change to it too as a lot of people see it weak to talk about your feelings as a man.If you want to decrease the amount of suicides,those attitudes need to change.

Lots of people don't understand why people do it either.I remember when Owen Wilson attempted suicide a few years ago, people questioned why he would want to kill himself as he's famous and rich.People don't understand the loneliness you feel,the hopelessness,the sense that you don't belong here.When you want to end your life for whatever reason,you have nothing to turn too and whatever happens,you believe no one will miss you.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread that people who fail in an attempt that most will regret it afterwards.Reason they regret it is because of people's reactions to it.You know then that people will miss you.

It was mentioned aswell that people would tell them to get medical help if someone they knew was feeling suicidal.Very few people would like to be told that there is something so wrong with them that need therapy or professional help about the issues.If someone is talking to you about suicide,the last thing they need is someone being judgmental and telling them to go seek help elsewhere.That could just reinforce their feelings that no one really cares about them.Most people will go through a terrible period in their life,most will overcome it but some will feel that suicide is the best option for them.

deadhead13 · 15-09-2009 09:41PM

rgt320q wrote: »

It doesn't seem to be allowed to read into or say here anything remotely positive on the matter, e.g., 'it's their choice, it should be respected" or "people should be allowed to judge the validity of life on their own terms" etc.

Just my €0.02 there.

That would assume a person has rationally thought it through and came to a decision. Irrational thinking is very much part of mental illness. Almost all people who kill themselves have a diagnosable mental disorder, in the main clinical depression. Clinical depression is a treatable condition.

AckwelFoley · 15-09-2009 09:43PM

Splendour wrote: »

Obviously snyper didn't know this guy that well so I imagine any depression he may have been feeling would never have come out in their online discussion and snyper you should in no way feel bad about this.
.

It can be almost impossible to tell if someone is suffering inside.

The single biggest thing i hear from people when talking about somone that committed sucide was "jez, i was chatting him in the pub on friday night and he seemed in great form"

This may seem the case, however i can distintly remember shortly before i was admitted to Mullingar psychiatric hospital in 2007 after being admitted with Bi polar depression, i foolishly tried to hide from my problems by going out and getting drunk on a saturday night with some friends. I had an absolute blast of a time, i was for all intensive purposes the centre of attention among our group of friends, all jokes, all chat - looked like i was care free, however, inside below the superficial jokes and laughing i felt like i had cancer eating me inside... i vividly remember dropping home a young woman i was with that night,getting her number to meet up again and waiting to hail a taxi, it hit me like a wet blanket all of a sudden the feeling of despair, similar to the feeling i had for weeks prior to now, but now exasperated by the drink. I began crying uncontrolably.. and as i can do because im lucky, called one of my sisters, she collected me and brought me home to her house.

Within one month i almost committed suicide, pure chance and circumstance prevented it (my sister rang me hysterically, somehow knowing what i was up to just as i was retrieving the rifle from the boot of the jeep down at portlick wood)

I now thank god (a god i dont believe exists

) that im alive for what i have now.. bugger all has changed in my life circumstances apart from meeting my fiance - but i suppose the point im making is that, you just cant tell if someone is hurting inside.

Thats why i am so sickened by the loss of Darren, its i knowing how he felt inside, and knowing that he would look back on how he was feeling in a few years like i do now, and feeling the same as i do - happy to be alive and a world calss spammer of AH or as would be in his case a World champion Boxer...he'd earn more money, but the cake is better here!

Darlughda · 15-09-2009 09:47PM

If there is some way, some method,some arena of allowing people to engage in a discussion of suicide; what feelings they have, what reaction it provokes in them, the why and when and how the reality of the mortality/death taboo is part of our life then maybe much suffering can be alleviated.

philologos · 15-09-2009 10:01PM

We definitely need to talk more about suicide and mental health more. People need to know that if they are feeling upset that there is assistance to them. Also, people around others need to be educated in how to be more receptive to people with mental health problems. Depression and mental health issues are real problems, too often people just snub them off as people attention seeking.

Daroxtar wrote: »

Maybe if people were fully convinced that there was no God and no afterlife they wouldn't be as ready to kill themselves. It's possible that a lot of people think that if they commit suicide then what comes next will be better but if nothing comes next then their death is final in a way that only death can be and suicide has only ended their life,not given them a new pain free one. Would there be as many suicide bombers if there was no promise of a horde of virgins and the glories of heaven?

Suicide rates are lower for those in active religious communities than those who are not.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

Darlughda · 15-09-2009 10:04PM

Get religion out of suicide prevention policies.

The Big Red Button · 15-09-2009 10:04PM

snyper wrote: »

I now thank god (a god i dont believe exists ) that im alive for what i have now.. bugger all has changed in my life circumstances apart from meeting my fiance - but i suppose the point im making is that, you just cant tell if someone is hurting inside.

Thats why i am so sickened by the loss of Darren, its i knowing how he felt inside, and knowing that he would look back on how he was feeling in a few years like i do now, and feeling the same as i do - happy to be alive and a world calss spammer of AH or as would be in his case a World champion Boxer...he'd earn more money, but the cake is better here!

Thanks for sharing your story.

It reminds me in a way of the story of Ken Baldwin, who attempted suicide by jumping of the Golden Gate bridge, and said afterwards, "I instantly realized that everything in my life that I’d thought was unfixable was totally fixable—except for having just jumped."

Many people who have attempted suicide have looked back a few years later and been grateful that their attempt was unsuccessful and that they are still alive.

It's so sad to think of those who were "successful" in their attempts, who would also have been looking back now, had things turned out differently, and been glad that they'd given life another chance.

Life isn't permanent. Death is both permanent and irreversible. That's why, if I was ever in that terrible position of wanting to end it all (and hopefully I never will be), I hope that I'll choose to make a go of it for another hour, another day, another week. I hope that anyone reading this thread might do the same.

pablomakaveli · 15-09-2009 10:08PM

I think bringing suicide into the open will help. A lot of people seem to ask "well why did'nt they tell someone". I think in a lot of people are probably afraid to tell someone for fear of being criticised or ridiculed.

When you have people who have commited suicide being called cowards or selfish it's no wonder a person contemplating suicide might be afraid to seek help. I remember there was a TD who said people who commited suicide were "selfish bastards". (Can't remember that TD's name but i know he is a prick). This attitude needs to stop. It only further stigmatizes suicide.

If suicide is discussed openly a person who is having suicidal thoughts might feel more comfortable in telling someone and seeking help.

Also people who are trying to push their religious/anti-religious views in relation to suicide on this thread need to cop on.:mad: I think religion or a lack of religion will have any real effect at the end of the day. A person who commits suicide will do so because they feel there is no hope and that being alive is too painful. What they believe comes next would be irrelevant to someone in that state of mind.

Sharpshooter · 15-09-2009 10:08PM

Jakkass wrote: »

We definitely need to talk more about suicide and mental health more. People need to know that if they are feeling upset that there is assistance to them. Also, people around others need to be educated in how to be more receptive to people with mental health problems. Depression and mental health issues are real problems, too often people just snub them off as people attention seeking.

Suicide rates are lower for those in active religious communities than those who are not.
http://www.adherents.com/misc/religion_suicide.html

Jakkass this discussion is rolling along very well, please don't drag it down the religious route.

philologos · 15-09-2009 10:09PM

Sharpshooter wrote: »

Jakkass this discussion is rolling along very well, please don't drag it down the religious route.

Apologies, I was merely correcting another poster on the facts of the matter. I will try to keep it out of the discussion going forward.

stepbar · 15-09-2009 10:10PM

irish_bob wrote: »

you have it back to front , its a strong belief in god that traditionally has prevented people from commiting suicide , fear of punishement etc which is why suicide rates are higher in more secular countries

btw , i believe commiting suicide is the bravest thing anyone can do , to make the ultimate descision , to take a step into the complete unknown , the biggest false cliche out there is that sucide is a cowards way out , the saying has become popular due to the churches creation of the term as a means of detering people , i.e . i wont do it because i will be branded a coward , properly anylised , how could anyone possibly conclude that it was a cowardly act

irish_bob wrote: »

what could the goverment possibly do , how can the state do anything about something that is so personal , why cant you accept that some people just dont want to live anymore , not everyone who is happy wants the indignity of crying to some shrink who puts on a serious face and charges 100 quid an hour

irish_bob wrote: »

i see it as a noble act , if more people committed suicide , the world would be a better place , anti social criminals are most likely people who at some point in thier lives , decided to turn their anger outwards on society , had they instead decided to turn thier anger inwards and end it , society would be the better for it , also , some people perfer not to be victims , some people are too proud to just become another boring patient in therapy or drugged out of thier head on prozac , they deal with it on their own terms , good on them , weak people never commit suicide , only strong people

irish_bob wrote: »

i said the world would be a better place if some people took thier own lives , the likes of hitler , john gilligan , josef fritzel , theese people could not have been happy or health of mind people , they would have saved the world and those in it a lot of heartache had they turned thier anger inwards , away with your insinuation that i wished some poster on this forum,s uncle killed himself

Words fail to describe how retarded I think your opinion is.

---

Suicide is definatly a very touchy issue. I will never understand why someone takes the ultimate step and ends their life. Never. Perhaps, some are depressed (and god know I should know enough about how depression can effect a family). But you can't put it all down to depression.

My take on suicide is that it can never be an acceptable way out of life. It causes so much sorrow and pain to family and friends. IMO it's a very cowardly and selfish way out. You've got to hold people to some basic standards and the basic standard I would believe in is the right and respect of life. If we start accepting suicide as being an acceptable way out of lifes problems, we might as well open the floodgates.

I know a guy who committed suicide about 11 years ago aged 20. To this day I can never understand why he did it. And I look at his family in 2009 and TBH they are fcuked up over it 11 years on. When I think about it, the guy had no obvious problems and enjoyed his gaa. An absolute waste of life.

I agree that the state of mental health services are diabolical in this country. And access to same are also diabolical (public). Like most things if you've got the money, services are readily available. Whilst I can understand that life can be very dark and depressing, it doesn't necessitate the need to commit suicide.

I agree that we should talk more openly about people and their feelings. Unfortunatly most people are not equiped to deal with same.

Sharpshooter · 15-09-2009 10:11PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Apologies, I was merely correcting another poster on the facts of the matter. I will try to keep it out of the discussion going forward.

Thank you for that.:)

schumacher · 15-09-2009 10:11PM

Suicide should be discussed but people get very offended and start bringing in personal tradegies if other people disagree with their point of view. Irishbob got banned even though his statements were general, they werent aimed at any one poster. Other posters attacked his posts calling them ****. People should respect peoples opinions even if they are notheir own.

Peoples experiences shapes the way they think and not everyone will agree. The title is about discussing suicide more openly and then someone gets banned when they raise views unpopular. The irony

I dont believe Irish Bob is trolling. He posts alot.
My view is that there is no point in spending money on talking about it. It wont do one bit of good. Like if you are in financial difficulty and decide to commit suicide but seek help instead you are still going to be in financial difficulty afterwards.

Hope this post makes sense cos my laptop is typing really slow

AckwelFoley · 15-09-2009 10:15PM

schumacher wrote: »

Suicide should be discussed but people get very offended and start bringing in personal tradegies if other people disagree with their point of view. Irishbob got banned even though his statements were general, they werent aimed at any one poster. Other posters attacked his posts calling them ****. People should respect peoples opinions even if they are notheir own.

Peoples experiences shapes the way they think and not everyone will agree. The title is about discussing suicide more openly and then someone gets banned when they raise views unpopular. The irony

I dont believe Irish Bob is trolling. He posts alot.
My view is that there is no point in spending money on talking about it. It wont do one bit of good. Like if you are in financial difficulty and decide to commit suicide but seek help instead you are still going to be in financial difficulty afterwards.

Hope this post makes sense cos my laptop is typing really slow

First rule of fight club. You dont discuss moderators decisions..

...wait that makes no sence..

Point being, take it to feedback if you feel ill'ed by the decision.

My issue with Bob, is that his opinions dont make sence and points he present as facts are, well not accurate.

Hitler had an opinion, we dont have to respect it (im not contrasting bob to the kraut) but i hope you see my point

stepbar · 15-09-2009 10:16PM

snyper wrote: »

First rule of fight club. You dont discuss moderators decisions..

Second rule of Fight Club.

You don't discuss moderators decisions.....

Slugs · 15-09-2009 10:17PM

Life isn't permanent. Death is both permanent and irreversible.

You don't know that mate. I know you're not trying to make a statement out of it, but I just wanted to comment on that. You don't know what the so-called "afterlife", if there even is one, is going to bring. Neither do I (I'm hoping Valhalla ^^)

(Next comment isn't directed at you chatter, just wanted to comment on the above)

I think what it all boils down to is this, some people go to suicide out of pure desperation, and that's fine. They've no one to talk to, and they're all alone. But what sickens me are the selfish people who want to keep someone who genuinely wants to die. I'll give you an example. Read an article before about a spanish girl who tried to commit suicide for the very simple reason she did not want to go on in this world. Family didn't want to have her die because they couldn't imagine their lives without her, so they placed her on suicide watch. The girl ended up stabbing herself at the kitchen table out of pure desperation to end her life.

Now you can argue that the girl just wasn't mentally stable, and that's fine, but who were the family to judge if their daughter should live or die. They kept her around for their own selfish reasons. She was happy to die, she wanted it. Please don't misquote me or misinterpret this. I'm not condoning suicide, or anything in that generally area. What I'm saying is it is a person's choice to live or die. And if you are keeping them alive after they have made the decisionn themselves, you are doing so for your own selfish reasons, and that's just disgusting.

philologos · 15-09-2009 10:18PM

schumacher wrote: »

Suicide should be discussed but people get very offended and start bringing in personal tradegies if other people disagree with their point of view. Irishbob got banned even though his statements were general, they werent aimed at any one poster. Other posters attacked his posts calling them ****. People should respect peoples opinions even if they are notheir own.

If this offence serves to save lives, or re-educate people that suicide is a real problem, then it's all worth it isn't it?

schumacher · 15-09-2009 10:20PM

snyper wrote: »

First rule of fight club. You dont discuss moderators decisions..

yeah i know that so this will be the last thing i say on it. I feel like the thread is being derailed. People in this country say talk and then when you do you cant because other people dont like it. i see your other post now that i can take it some where else. sorry for posting

schumacher · 15-09-2009 10:23PM

Jakkass wrote: »

If this offence serves to save lives, or re-educate people that suicide is a real problem, then it's all worth it isn't it?

Sorry jakkass im a bit confused what offence?

tech77 · 15-09-2009 10:24PM

irish_bob wrote: »

that guy sounds like a whinger , trust me , he wont kill himself , people who kill themselves are usually very private and not blabber mouths with little shame

It's a myth to associate talking about it with rarely doing it.

Latchy · 15-09-2009 10:25PM

I am sympathetic towards the whole topic of Suicide .It's a complex sensitive issue

It's the selfish B'satd / indiviuduals ( not just 9/11 bombers ) I detest ,the ones who want to take as many innocent lives with him /her as well ie, I'm not happy in this life so I am going to kill off your happiness , or any chance you have of having any to.

The Big Red Button · 15-09-2009 10:26PM

Slugs wrote: »

You don't know that mate. I know you're not trying to make a statement out of it, but I just wanted to comment on that. You don't know what the so-called "afterlife", if there even is one, is going to bring. Neither do I (I'm hoping Valhalla ^^)

(Next comment isn't directed at you chatter, just wanted to comment on the above)

I think what it all boils down to is this, some people go to suicide out of pure desperation, and that's fine. They've no one to talk to, and they're all alone. But what sickens me are the selfish people who want to keep someone who genuinely wants to die. I'll give you an example. Read an article before about a spanish girl who tried to commit suicide for the very simple reason she did not want to go on in this world. Family didn't want to have her die because they couldn't imagine their lives without her, so they placed her on suicide watch. The girl ended up stabbing herself at the kitchen table out of pure desperation to end her life.

Now you can argue that the girl just wasn't mentally stable, and that's fine, but who were the family to judge if their daughter should live or die. They kept her around for their own selfish reasons. She was happy to die, she wanted it. Please don't misquote me or misinterpret this. I'm not condoning suicide, or anything in that generally area. What I'm saying is it is a person's choice to live or die. And if you are keeping them alive after they have made the decisionn themselves, you are doing so for your own selfish reasons, and that's just disgusting.

I do understand what you're saying. While it saddens me, I do understand that there are people out there who will never be happy or satisfied, who after receiving all available help still want to end it all because they find life to be that painful. I can't empathise, as I have never felt anything close to this, but I can sympathise and try to understand.

However there are also plenty of people who attempt suicide who do go on to regret it a few years later, and who go on to live long and fulfilling lives. These people are the reason why I believe suicide discussion and prevention are so important.

Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

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