Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

Wagon · 15-09-2009 4:10pm

It's possible that some try it because of comtempt for the world and people in it? Look at how it works now. Thousands of people commit suicide every year and now its a thing to be discussed among the masses because a celebrity did it.

Saying that suicide is selfish doesn't make sense. A person doesn't ask to be born into this world. It's their life and they have a right to end it when they feel like. Dunno how id react of a family member did it though. Suppose id feel angry and really sad but maybe id understand too. Dont know to be honest.

Piste · 15-09-2009 4:11pm

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

I don't think it's just about the publicising of suicide stats in the media though. What about all the families that pretend it wasn't suicide? People should feel able to talk about it. Depression is very isolating and if people realise that there are other people out there that feel like them, it could help them.

oh right, all I know of suicide is through the media, thank God it hasn't touched my family.

Snakeblood · 15-09-2009 4:14pm

Piste wrote: »

I'm going to go against the grain here and say I think suicide is very widely publicised. If you ever read the Irish Times Health supplement almost every week there's an article relating to suicide- be it research or pleas from various agencies. In almost every newspaper there are similar facts and figures published on suicide as well as press releases from various charity organisations.

I think the problem is that if you are reading the Irish Times Health supplement, you're a relatively small section of the population, and may not be the person the outreach is supposed to hit. Same with newspapers in general. A lot of people simply don't read them.

sock puppet · 15-09-2009 4:23pm

Piste wrote: »

I'm going to go against the grain here and say I think suicide is very widely publicised. If you ever read the Irish Times Health supplement almost every week there's an article relating to suicide- be it research or pleas from various agencies. In almost every newspaper there are similar facts and figures published on suicide as well as press releases from various charity organisations.

But if you look in more mainstream media it's mentioned much less. Someone else pointed out all the RSA ads and the millions spent on promoting and legislating for road safety yet suicide is a much less publicised issue. Just look at the reports on Darren's death on the RTE and BBC websites. They're almost exactly the same, yet rte leave out one significant detail, that he was found hanged.

Hazys · 15-09-2009 4:25pm

I honestly believe that the Government knows how bad the situation is and they sweep it under the rug and ignore the problem just so they dont have to deal with another crisis.

Its a lot cheaper for the government to highlight the road deaths and put a few ads up on the TV about drink driving and a few more Gardai on the roads and ignore the issue of suicide because its not 'PC' to talk about it. I think they know the costs and complexities of setting up proper mental care services and counselling are very expensive (what we have at the moment is a joke) and it would just add to the farce that is health care in this country.

It sickens me that they dont try to save these people because they will open a can of worms that will affect their pityful careers.

Sofiztikated · 15-09-2009 4:27pm

sock puppet wrote: »

But if you look in more mainstream media it's mentioned much less. Someone else pointed out all the RSA ads and the millions spent on promoting and legislating for road safety yet suicide is a much less publicised issue. Just look at the reports on Darren's death on the RTE and BBC websites. They're almost exactly the same, yet rte leave out one significant detail, that he was found hanged.

I think (my own personal view) is that is is generally left out due to the fact that much of Ireland is still governed in some way by the Catholic church, and suicide is seen as a mortal sin.

Kooli · 15-09-2009 4:30pm

I believe part of the reason why there are no state funded publicity campaigns regarding suicide is that the government doesn't have a lot to offer people feeling this way because the mental health services are so criminally underfunded.

It's fine for them to have ads telling drivers to slow down or drive more carefully but what can they tell people who are severely depressed? Get on a two year waiting list for psychiatric services? Go to an expensive private counsellor that your health insurance won't cover?

The fact is our government does NOT prioritise mental health, and they are UNCOMFORTABLE talking about it, and they REFUSE to admit that the problem affects all types of people, all walks of life.

Despite me saying that, I do think there is huge value in publicity campaigns - there was a TV ad recently about safeguarding your mental health that was pretty good(I only saw it once, what happened to it?)

sock puppet · 15-09-2009 4:36pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I think (my own personal view) is that is is generally left out due to the fact that much of Ireland is still governed in some way by the Catholic church, and suicide is seen as a mortal sin.

Probably, but afaik even the Church has relaxed their stance recently. I dislike the way a lot of people blame the Church for many of the shortcomings of Irish people. Just because they preach something doesn't mean people have to believe it. It's our own fault that we're only recently emerging from it's shadow.

6ix · 15-09-2009 4:48pm

Great thread.

I've known a few people who've done it, and was there when they found one of the bodies. It always bothers me that there is such a stigma around it, and the cause of death is always muttered in hushed tones.

Interesting to see so many people on here think it should be spoken about, and rightfully so. It sits in stark contrast to the still prevalent ignorant Irish attitudes toward any mental illness, from depression to eating disorders and beyond.

Sofiztikated · 15-09-2009 4:48pm

sock puppet wrote: »

Probably, but afaik even the Church has relaxed their stance recently. I dislike the way a lot of people blame the Church for many of the shortcomings of Irish people. Just because they preach something doesn't mean people have to believe it. It's our own fault that we're only recently emerging from it's shadow.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the Catholic church for it. But its not entirely our own fault, as they were a big oppresive force for a long time, and in some ways, still are.

Even last night, in work, I had to deal with a suicide issue, and today, people are saying, "Oh God, the poor woman, I'll get a mass said for her."

Me bolix. Get the woman some help. I had the police (yes, police, not Gardi) go out to her, and as far as I know, she may have been sectioned.

pisslips · 15-09-2009 4:56pm

Instead of just preventing suicide can we develop a system that helps empower people to improve their quality of life, not just prevent them from taking a particular action.

suicide is just a symtom of the problem.

irishconvert · 15-09-2009 4:58pm

Daroxtar wrote: »

Maybe if people were fully convinced that there was no God and no afterlife they wouldn't be as ready to kill themselves.

I think you'll find the opposite is true and that people who believe in God and an afterlife are less likely to kill themselves.

Daroxtar wrote: »

It's possible that a lot of people think that if they commit suicide then what comes next will be better but if nothing comes next then their death is final in a way that only death can be and suicide has only ended their life,not given them a new pain free one. Would there be as many suicide bombers if there was no promise of a horde of virgins and the glories of heaven?

If you are referring to Muslims then you are full of **** as commiting suicide is a major sin. The rubbish about virgins waiting in heaven is just that, complete rubbish.

I.S.T. · 15-09-2009 5:01pm

I heard reported on the radio on newstalk when I was driving today that there are more deaths in Ireland from suicide than fatalities on the road

A lot of people believe that many of the fatal single car accidents are suicide also, so the suicide rate is probably higher than is reported.

PhysiologyRocks · 15-09-2009 5:04pm

I couldn't imagine discussion among individuals doing much.

I doubt that people decide to do it because it's a taboo. Likewise, I don't see someone saying "Well we discussed it, so I don't think I will".

I don't see why it shouldn't be discussed, but I don't personally see a huge advantage to it.

Publicly, discussion could be helpful.

Raising awareness would be likely to improve the quality and availability of services.

sock puppet · 15-09-2009 5:06pm

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming the Catholic church for it. But its not entirely our own fault, as they were a big oppresive force for a long time, and in some ways, still are.

Even last night, in work, I had to deal with a suicide issue, and today, people are saying, "Oh God, the poor woman, I'll get a mass said for her."

Me bolix. Get the woman some help. I had the police (yes, police, not Gardi) go out to her, and as far as I know, she may have been sectioned.

I agree but I know a few people who suffer from depression and some who are addicts and go through much of the same stuff. Not one of them is religious in the slightest. If I was to look at all my family including aunts,uncles etc none of them are religious yet all of them are extremely reticent and keep things to themselves. I'm only a teen but I've been shocked at the level of communication in some of my friends' families compared to my own. I also may come across as hypocrtical here but if I'm honest I'm guilty of refusing to open up myself.

Hazys · 15-09-2009 5:06pm

irishconvert wrote: »

I think you'll find the opposite is true and that people who believe in God and an afterlife are less likely to kill themselves.

If you are referring to Muslims then you are full of **** as commiting suicide is a major sin. The rubbish about virgins waiting in heaven is just that, complete rubbish.

Innocent Question here. Do the muslim suicide bombers believe/brainwashed that they will get all these virgins in heaven if they do what they do?

Is there anything in the Koran that mentions virgins in heaven for whatever reason you end up there?

My name is URL · 15-09-2009 5:07pm

pisslips wrote: »

Instead of just preventing suicide can we develop a system that helps empower people to improve their quality of life, not just prevent them from taking a particular action.

suicide is just a symtom of the problem.

Quality of life is a relative thing though. One person might consider having loads of money to be the most important thing, and another would consider having a soul-mate to be.

The only way to lower the rate of suicide is to make people see that seeking help is not a sign of weakness or an admission of been a failure at life.. that's the problem as I see it..

Mental health issues are not seen as a real problem in Ireland, just an annoying occurrence that people should feel shamed about

pisslips · 15-09-2009 5:19pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Quality of life is a relative thing though. One person might consider having loads of money to be the most important thing, and another would consider having a soul-mate to be.

The only way to lower the rate of suicide is to make people see that seeking help is not a sign of weakness or an admission of been a failure at life.. that's the problem as I see it..

Mental health is not seen as a real problem in Ireland, just an annoying occurrence that people should feel shamed about

Sure, sure

When I say quality of life I mean, general well-being and contentment with a good future outlook in terms of finances, relationships and emotional growth.

Anything that hinders you fullfilling your goals is a mental illness which means that we're all mentally ill to some extent. Some people stop making progress in this respect, despair and lose hope, they need the help of others to get them back on track.

The problem is that people make such a big deal out of it, if I got run down by a car. I'd be put in rehab until I could walk for myself again.

But suicide is just a symptom of the problem. So if we stop all people from commiting suicide, we'll still have mentally ill people. I think people should have the right to commit suicide but they should be giving help so that they choose not to take such action.

irishconvert · 15-09-2009 5:24pm

Hazys wrote: »

Innocent Question here. Do the muslim suicide bombers believe/brainwashed that they will get all these virgins in heaven if they do what they do?

Maybe some of the do believe this, that is why they are "brainwashed" but is it not true. It is a serious sin to kill innocent people and it is very serious to kill yourself. The teaching in the Qur'an is that these people will not go to heaven.

Hazys wrote: »

Is there anything in the Koran that mentions virgins in heaven for whatever reason you end up there?

I believe there is a verse in the Qur'an which says if you die as a martyr in a battle (i.e defending yourself from people attacking you or your family or Islam), you will go to heaven. The guidelines for battle are quite specific though and you are not allowed to harm innocent people, or children or women. I am not aware of any promise of virgins.

deadhead13 · 15-09-2009 6:05pm

There is no doubt that a mental health promotion stragedy is needed - highlighting to the individual themselves, their families, teachers ..etc how to identify emotional and behavioural problems linked to suicide. But what then? Early intervention services and programmes are also necessary. All this takes funding.

Mental healths percentage of the health budget has been steady falling over the past 2 decades. It is currently at 7%, in the UK it is 12%. The HSE published a document " Vision for change", outlining the changes needed in Irelands mealth health services, 3 years ago. To date no action has been taken, which is fairly indicative of the lack of priority the Governmet gives this issue.

Pygmalion · 15-09-2009 6:14pm

The way I see it, most people, if they notice someone is suicidal, fall into one of the following:

1. People who'll be a dick to the suicidal person.
2. People who'll joke about it and won't take it seriously (not neccessarilly in a dickish way).
3. People who will ignore it completely and hope it goes away.

Very few people who notice it would actually try and help someone, and to be honest I'd say if you were suicidal, it'd be a lot worse to know that people notice and don't seem to want to help you, than if people just didn't notice (which would also be pretty bad).

ctrl-alt-delete · 15-09-2009 6:18pm

I always thought they didn't like reporting on it that much, because there was evidence to suggest that a freported suicide leads to an increased rate soon thereafter,

not the best way of prevention, but i agree it should be discussed openly.

The Big Red Button · 15-09-2009 6:25pm

Pygmalion wrote: »

The way I see it, most people, if they notice someone is suicidal, fall into one of the following:

1. People who'll be a dick to the suicidal person.
2. People who'll joke about it and won't take it seriously (not neccessarilly in a dickish way).
3. People who will ignore it completely and hope it goes away.

Very few people who notice it would actually try and help someone, and to be honest I'd say if you were suicidal, it'd be a lot worse to know that people notice and don't seem to want to help you, than if people just didn't notice (which would also be pretty bad).

I disagree.

If we're talking about someone suspecting that a family member or friend is possibly suicidal, they are not likely to be a dick to them or joke about it. Maybe there isn't a high enough level of education about mental health in this country, but most people have some understanding of depression and its effects. I would imagine that the vast majority of people would actively encourage the potentially suicidal person to seek medical help. I know that's what I'd do, and what most people I know would be likely to do too.

As for the third category - people who will just ignore it completely and hope it goes away - there are people out there like this (particularly in the older generations) but I believe they're very much in the minority.

You seem to have a very negative view of human nature! In some cases, intervention by family and friends isn't going to help, but I honestly believe that the majority of people out there would at least try to help, regardless of how well they knew the suicidal person involved.

marcsignal · 15-09-2009 6:25pm

A guy I used to drink with up until last christmas has serious depression issues. From time to time he would get on a real downer and drink himself into a stupor and start going on about how shit his life was etc etc. When he wasn't doing this he was getting pissed up and starting arguements with others in the group.

I became seriously worried about him and tried to quietly give his mates (the lads who knew him a lot longer than I did) a 'heads up' about him, and unfortunately, on finding out, he took serious offence to this and had a go at me for interfering in his business.

I've now washed my hands of him, and it's sad, but I know he will top himself sooner or later, if he doesn't get help. There's often only so much you can do for some people. You cant drag them to a shrink by the hair if they don't want to go themselves.

Much and all as we fell out, he still has my number, and I hope, even at the 11th hour, he'll have the balls to call me, or someone else, at whatever time of the night/morning, rather than stick his head in a gas oven.

mink_man · 15-09-2009 6:26pm

no!

Insect Overlord · 15-09-2009 6:35pm

mink_man wrote: »

no!

No... what?

Pygmalion · 15-09-2009 6:54pm

chatterpillar wrote: »

You seem to have a very negative view of human nature! In some cases, intervention by family and friends isn't going to help, but I honestly believe that the majority of people out there would at least try to help, regardless of how well they knew the suicidal person involved.

I didn't say that the first or second category were very large, I'd say most people fall into the 3rd one though.

I do believe that more people would fall into the 1st or 2nd one than would go and actually try help, among younger people at least.
There's the perception that when someone (mostly young people again) acts depressed, self harms, or talks about suicide that they're just an attention seeking idiot nowadays (Thanks of course to the attention seeking idiots who DO do this) so people tend to just get lumped in with them.

Debatably that doesn't count as "noticing" someone is suicidal, as the people might not realise that there's a real problem, but at the end of the day it has the same effect.

Daroxtar · 15-09-2009 7:08pm

irishconvert wrote: »

I think you'll find the opposite is true and that people who believe in God and an afterlife are less likely to kill themselves.

If you are referring to Muslims then you are full of **** as commiting suicide is a major sin. The rubbish about virgins waiting in heaven is just that, complete rubbish.

How am I full of ****? Thats the kind of crap that deranged clerics use to brainwash people into becoming "Martyrs". Its the clerics who are full of ****, I'm merely commenting on it.

The fact that something is a "Sin" is hardly a deterrent as acoording to the books you follow God/Allah/Bogeyman forgives all sins. The fact that something is absolutely wrong and against nature and likely to cause hurt and harm to innoccent people is far more of a reason not to do it.

Of course its rubbish about virgins waiting in heaven. Its also rubbish that all infidels deserve to die. That doesnt stop idiots believing it or madmen preaching it.

Jigga · 15-09-2009 7:13pm

I don't know if anyone remembers a couple of years ago when that ignorant idiot Bertie Ahern said that he did not know how people who complained about the economy did not commit suicide.

This was a perfect example of the poor understanding of suicide at the highest level in the country.

Dennis the Stone · 15-09-2009 7:17pm

Jigga wrote: »

I don't know if anyone remembers a couple of years ago when that ignorant idiot Bertie Ahern said that he did not know how people who complained about the economy did not commit suicide.

This was a perfect example of the poor understanding of suicide at the highest level in the country.

Well, Bertie hardly understood the dynamics of wiping his own arse, It wasn't that surprising.

Suicide- Should it be discussed openly.

Comments