Ironman Training Austria 2010 - Any advice on Plan taken

delboyfagan · 09-09-2009 02:30PM #1

Heading off to do Austria next year, and hoping to put in a good showing.

Am 6ft and weight 93kgs, so am fully aware that first step is body compisition. This is something that I have been trying to do for years but just can't get head around it. Pig out a lot. Doing Challenge Barca in a few weeks but probably not going in shape I had hope to be in for race.

Anyways, starting 9th November the plan for 20 weeks to end of March is as follows:

Swim - 3 times a week in Belvedere. The session lasts for 45 mins in morning and by March I hope to have gotten this up to 15/20 mins before session starts, 45 min session and 200/300m cooldown.

Run - Long Run of 90/120 hrs, 1 easy run for 1 hr and 1 hr fartlek run for my third run (fartlek for example could be 20 mins @140, 5 mins @ 150, 5 mins @ 160)

Bike - Cycle with Swords on Saturday for 3 hrs. 2 by 1 hr sessions during week on well lit road near house. Thinking of big gear workout one night and mile intervals the other.

Best time is 11hrs 58 mins for ironman distance with a swim time of 1hrs 6 mins, bike of 5hrs 30 mins and run of 5hrs 5 mins. I kinda use my weight as an excuse for bad running but maybe its lack of discipline on bike or just not enough consistency.

Hope I might have given some of ye guys enough info about me to give your opinion on the plan above. Is there any merits to it? Is it b"ll"ocks? Should I be running more?

Any suggestions, hopefully constructive, would be appreciated.

tunney · 09-09-2009 02:51PM

delboyfagan wrote: »

Heading off to do Austria next year, and hoping to put in a good showing.

Am 6ft and weight 93kgs, so am fully aware that first step is body compisition. This is something that I have been trying to do for years but just can't get head around it. Pig out a lot. Doing Challenge Barca in a few weeks but probably not going in shape I had hope to be in for race.

Anyways, starting 9th November the plan for 20 weeks to end of March is as follows:

Swim - 3 times a week in Belvedere. The session lasts for 45 mins in morning and by March I hope to have gotten this up to 15/20 mins before session starts, 45 min session and 200/300m cooldown.

Run - Long Run of 90/120 hrs, 1 easy run for 1 hr and 1 hr fartlek run for my third run (fartlek for example could be 20 mins @140, 5 mins @ 150, 5 mins @ 160)

Bike - Cycle with Swords on Saturday for 3 hrs. 2 by 1 hr sessions during week on well lit road near house. Thinking of big gear workout one night and mile intervals the other.

Best time is 11hrs 58 mins for ironman distance with a swim time of 1hrs 6 mins, bike of 5hrs 30 mins and run of 5hrs 5 mins. I kinda use my weight as an excuse for bad running but maybe its lack of discipline on bike or just not enough consistency.

Hope I might have given some of ye guys enough info about me to give your opinion on the plan above. Is there any merits to it? Is it b"ll"ocks? Should I be running more?

Any suggestions, hopefully constructive, would be appreciated.

At 6 feet you should be closer to 73kgs

Time to lose that weight is now, after December the stresses of training and losing weight are too much combined.

I'm guessing the Belvo sessions are the Aer Lingus Masters ones. Sessions as far as I know are 2k tops, thats about 2k short. And maybe a little too intense?

Cycling - three rides is what I'd aim for alright but the longer ride should be well up on three hours by the end of march. I also question the merits of riding with a cycling club.

Your swim time is reasonable, your bike time is decent, but the run time is, obviously, what killed you, and at 93kg will continue to kill you. The weight needs to come down. When you biked 5:30 was that overcooking it a little? Maybe more IM paced intervals (45-60 minutes) on the bike that are strictly hr or power capped, and be honest with yourself, may help you keep the bike in check in Austria.

BG work is a must I think, althought I think a turbo is a better place for it.

I know - alot of words from a guy thats never done an IM but hey my 2c.

MCOS · 09-09-2009 02:53PM

tunney can you elaborate a little on 'big gear work'?

Thanks

delboyfagan · 09-09-2009 03:02PM

Many thanks for the reply Tunney. I might just pick ur brains on some of the answers that u gave:

Re Swim. Yes Aer LIngus is right. If you go down a group, to a slower group - would that negate the intensity issue? Re distance u are right but if added on maybe 750/100 as warm up and 200/300 as coold down would be up over three. Or should the distance u try and achieve be 3/4k without warm or cool down.

Run - yep didnt have HR on race day and don't use it too much so have to start. I know weight is issue.

Big Question to all u triathletes out there that weight low 70kgs - are u naturally thin or do u avoid bad foods and have a good diet. How do u avoid the sit down at home after the meal and eat biscuits hour?

Bike: Yep - the bike course is easy - don't think I overly pushed - but then again no Hr or power tap to let me know if was or was not.

I have read your posts before re merits of goup cycling. Just find it harder to get out on own!!

tunney · 09-09-2009 03:31PM

delboyfagan wrote: »

Many thanks for the reply Tunney. I might just pick ur brains on some of the answers that u gave:

Re Swim. Yes Aer LIngus is right. If you go down a group, to a slower group - would that negate the intensity issue? Re distance u are right but if added on maybe 750/100 as warm up and 200/300 as coold down would be up over three. Or should the distance u try and achieve be 3/4k without warm or cool down.

As long as you add on the warm up and cool down no problems, woudln't stress about the intensity, actually swimming with better swimmers will help you.

delboyfagan wrote: »

Run - yep didnt have HR on race day and don't use it too much so have to start. I know weight is issue.

Get used to using it, its essentially (if you need a HRM I'm selling one

)

delboyfagan wrote: »

Big Question to all u triathletes out there that weight low 70kgs - are u naturally thin or do u avoid bad foods and have a good diet. How do u avoid the sit down at home after the meal and eat biscuits hour?

I'm 5 10 and naturdally a fat fcuk (I have been 99kg) . I've been down to 67kg before for a season and was at 69kg last season, would have liked to have been 68kg for austria last year but in the end it wouldn't have made a difference. I'm 73kg at the moment. When I'm trying to shift weight I'll eat heathly 6 days of the week and one day I'll allow myself treats, but only high fat not high sugar ones (insulin, whole other thread). This means you can get some treats and it also means you are more likely to shift weight, once the weight is gone I try to maintain a balance between calories eaten and calories required. For us natural fatties discipline is the only way to go.

delboyfagan wrote: »

Bike: Yep - the bike course is easy - don't think I overly pushed - but then again no Hr or power tap to let me know if was or was not.

Bike course is not easy in IM Austria, it can be fast, that is a big difference. 5:50 would suggest you pushed too hard.

delboyfagan wrote: »

I have read your posts before re merits of goup cycling. Just find it harder to get out on own!!

I'm a big fan of group cycling, just as long as it is the right group, doing the right training, at the right intensity.

Roll on July 4th! This could be my favourite thread on boards for the next year!

hunnymonster · 09-09-2009 05:31PM

I agree with 100% of what Tunney has said but I think there is more than your weight involved in the shocking run time. For comparison, I'm about 15 kgs over what I should be and for a 5:30 bike time, I'm looking at a 3:40 marathon (mind you my swimming is pants so it's swings and roundabouts). There also seems to be a lot of routineness in your plan. For every session you do you should answer

what (e.g. long swim, 5 km)
how (e.g. 1500 wu, 10x100 on X sec,......)
when (e.g. Thur morning )
why: (e.g. work on swimming endurance, particular attention to form when tired)
progression/step back/ skills acquisition? (e.g. progression from last weeks 4.5 km swim)
feel: (e.g. slept really well so felt well up for this, was starving afterwards)
you can always add to this to include nutrition, sleep hours, other stresses, nutrition etc

For example, 1 would do 3xswim (1 long, 1 technique, 1 speed) 3x bike (1 long (up to 7:30) with short brick, 1 medium (~3 hrs), 1 speed), 3x run (1 long, 1 medium, 1 speed). I also do some weights sessions but that's a personal thing. Sometimes I'll also do some recovery sessions. They use some extra calories, help recovery of tired muscles and make me feel better but only to be done if body can handle them. i can send you some training logs from a previous race if that might help?

hunnymonster · 09-09-2009 05:32PM

what's your flat marathon time, when you don't have the swim and bike thrown in as a warm-up?

Mickeybags · 09-09-2009 07:02PM

It seems that running and your weight are your limiters.

How about concentrating on these from now on.

You mention that you train with a swimming group and a cycling group.

Have you considered running with a club or indeed using a run coach?

How about consulting a dietician?

If you have already done a few IM's and nothing much is changing perhaps it is time for a new and radicle approach rather than trying copy or imitate other peoples training plans.

It can be very easy to overeat while on the bike and indeed afterwards.
Swimming also generates an enormous appetite.
Whereas running often dulls the appetite.

I hope I am not coming across as too harsh :mad: but how about using the next year to focus on becoming a slimmer and better runner

tunney · 09-09-2009 08:46PM

hunnymonster wrote: »

I think there is more than your weight involved in the shocking run time.

I agree I am convinced he overcooked the bike.

tunney · 09-09-2009 08:49PM

Mickeybags wrote: »

It seems that running and your weight are your limiters.

How about concentrating on these from now on.

Agree with the weight, disagree with the running. I think his biking is probably a limiter. But to be use we'd need some testin done

Mickeybags wrote: »

You mention that you train with a swimming group and a cycling group.

Have you considered running with a club or indeed using a run coach?

Over rated for triathletes, especially longer distances ones. ( the club business that is)

Mickeybags wrote: »

How about consulting a dietician?

I did this, recommend it.

Delboy - this is all constructive, I'm looking forward to a few post race beers next year with ya in Austria.

Poncherello · 09-09-2009 09:06PM

Hunny, Tunney what are your thoughts on Don Finks training plans ?

delboyfagan · 09-09-2009 09:41PM

Guys

Again thanks for replies.

Hunnymonster,

Times have come down each time. I actually was a lot heavier than I am now:

2003 Austria -15hrs 01 mins - don't know how I did it as totally unprepared. Only ever did one olympic tri before in 2000 in Sligo in which I was last.

2005 - did Lanza easy as was doing Austria a few weeks later. Time 14hrs 58 mins.

2005 - Austria - 12hrs 48 mins give or take.

2008 - Germany - 11 hrs 58 mins

Actually never ran stand alone marathon. For 5 miler I run 36 mins (phoenix park 5 miler). For 10 miler around 84 mins (phoenix park again).

Reading your comment re 'shocking time' - I agree - just hard to take it on board when u see it on paper. Hopefully use it as motivator.

I will do a timetable alright as u suggested. Actually looking at what u say, I suppose I do the complete opposite. I kinda wake up and decide what I want to do there and then as opposed to have a detailed plan written down. So will put a weekly plan in place and try and stick to it and know the reason for each session as opposed to the ad hoc approach used at moment.

Have also though about weights - something have never done consistently.

Mickeybags,

I do swim and cycle as they are on early morns. Most running clubs run Tuesday/Thursday evenings for example and with 3 young kids I try and avoid that.

Will focus on weight - as ye all say. Re run - have read a number of threads on slowtwitch re improving runs and a lot of experienced people say to up it to 6/7 runs a week. Are there big improvements to be seen from this approach? ?Even if done for 3/4 months over winter.

Tunney,

Re dietican (as stated by Mickey) - did the one you use have specific knowledge of tris and the stresses/intakes required as opposed to a general dietcian without any sport specific knowldge.

Re testing - any advice taken on board

The bike probably is a limiter. Kinda hate to admit it. In a lot of tri I do now I think I am up in top 10/15% on bike. For example I did Ballina this year. I was 21st in swim, 16th on bike and 117th on run with a time of 24.30 for 5km - bad. Sometimes I come out of a tri saying yes I was bad but I was 5/6/16th on bike - as someone once told me its a three event race not a cycling race.

Re pint - yep - if I beat u - u can buy them all night.

Big post guys - thanks again for reading and replying. And none of the replies have come acrioss as harsh - in fact opposite and helpful.

Mickeybags · 10-09-2009 07:02AM

First of all, well done on reducing you times down to sub 12.

Not sure what your goal for your next IM might be.

Possibly 11 hours ?

A reasonable breakdown might be
Swim 65mins
Bike 5.45
Run 4 hours
Transitions 10 mins

Looking at your stats and rating them, swimming well above average, bike above average and run below average.

Swim - done and dusted
Bike - room for improvement, but still pretty good
Run - could do a lot better

Without a stand alone marathon time it can be difficult to judge but using your 5 and 10 mile and putting them into McMillan they spit out 3.30 or 4 hour. (Not forgetting to throw in copious amounts of salt)
The difference between your 5 and 10 mile times suggest either poor pacing or lack of run fitness or a bit of both.

I would definely be in favour of increasing your run frequency over the coming months. Maybe cut back a bit on the long run until your body adapts to 4/5 runs a week

Mickeybags · 10-09-2009 07:34AM

Correct pacing, race strategy and execution of on race day are of course important factors.
How have you fared out on these?

tunney · 10-09-2009 09:26AM

Mickeybags wrote: »

First of all, well done on reducing you times down to sub 12.

Not sure what your goal for your next IM might be.

Possibly 11 hours ?

A reasonable breakdown might be
Swim 65mins
Bike 5.45
Run 4 hours
Transitions 10 mins

Looking at your stats and rating them, swimming well above average, bike above average and run below average.

Swim - done and dusted
Bike - room for improvement, but still pretty good
Run - could do a lot better

Without a stand alone marathon time it can be difficult to judge but using your 5 and 10 mile and putting them into McMillan they spit out 3.30 or 4 hour. (Not forgetting to throw in copious amounts of salt)
The difference between your 5 and 10 mile times suggest either poor pacing or lack of run fitness or a bit of both.

I would definely be in favour of increasing your run frequency over the coming months. Maybe cut back a bit on the long run until your body adapts to 4/5 runs a week

McMillan isn't worth a damn......

I wouldn't go as far to say that the swim is done and dusted, to avoid the intial T1 and bike chaos you need to be sub 1:00.

I would revise the times to
Swim 65mins
Bike 6.00
Run 3:40 hours
Transitions 10 mins

Time on the bike done more easily will mean less likely of walking (outside of any run/walk strategy I mean)

hunnymonster · 10-09-2009 09:28AM

What has your bike training been for previous races?

hunnymonster · 10-09-2009 09:33AM

sorry about using the word "shocking". I mean it relative to the swim and bike times. You're obviously able to do much better, we just need to figure out the best way to do it. I'm starting to get the feeling that adding structure to both your training and diet is going to help you no end.

tunney · 10-09-2009 09:34AM

Poncherello wrote: »

Hunny, Tunney what are your thoughts on Don Finks training plans ?

I have never worked with him nor do I know of anyone who has.

However from looking into him he appears to be a "pack em high" coach. What he offers:
* Detailed 4-week training schedules
I'd be more in favour of a weekly training schedule that adapts to life and training
* 20 minute Initial Phone Consultation
I'd expect this on at least a weekly basis
* Ongoing email communication
Okay
* Schedule adjustments
Wow - they can change your schedule???
* Benchmark Testing
I can do this for you
* Strength Training Program
I can do this for you

They don't seem to offer much really that I would say warrants the 145 dollars a month. I wouldn't quite call this coaching to be honest. To be honest it sounds like a rip off. Don't get me wrong, quality coaches cost big bucks and some coaches in the us charge 600+ dollars a month, but it all depends on what you get for your money and to be honest you don't get much here.

To be honest if you are going down the coaching route I can give you the name of some top UK based coaches that not only would do online coaching but will also be over in Ireland coaching from time to time and run excellent training camps in the UK. Not my coach he isn't taking anyone else on this year but I've worked with them before and they are excellent, I can only imagine that they would deliver the same standard of coaching that my coach does.

tunney · 10-09-2009 09:39AM

hunnymonster wrote: »

sorry about using the word "shocking". I mean it relative to the swim and bike times. You're obviously able to do much better, we just need to figure out the best way to do it. I'm starting to get the feeling that adding structure to both your training and diet is going to help you no end.

Agreed, and discipline on the biking. Throw ego and pride out the window. Its a swim+bike+RUN - if you're cooked from the bike you won't get the last bit

interested · 10-09-2009 09:42AM

tunney wrote: »

McMillan isn't worth a damn......

I wouldn't go as far to say that the swim is done and dusted, to avoid the intial T1 and bike chaos you need to be sub 1:00.

I would revise the times to
Swim 65mins
Bike 6.00
Run 3:40 hours
Transitions 10 mins

Time on the bike done more easily will mean less likely of walking (outside of any run/walk strategy I mean)

Id be in a similar position to OP in that swim and bike would be stronger than run. Someone mentioned to me before that your time on the bike in any tri should be the 'time you should do and not the time you can do'. The longer the distances the more that makes sense to me for both the swim and the bike. Having the resolve to execute that plan appropriately come race day is the key though - might be more pleasant to enjoy the bike in Barcelona and hold things for the run than elsewhere

Doh! just saw tunny's update I missed whilst typing re: discipline on the bike

pgibbo · 10-09-2009 02:06PM

delboyfagan wrote: »

The bike probably is a limiter. Kinda hate to admit it. In a lot of tri I do now I think I am up in top 10/15% on bike. For example I did Ballina this year. I was 21st in swim, 16th on bike and 117th on run with a time of 24.30 for 5km - bad. Sometimes I come out of a tri saying yes I was bad but I was 5/6/16th on bike - as someone once told me its a three event race not a cycling race.

Off topic I know but just checked Ballina results there. Looks like I caught you on the run and when i was passing you said you werre going to try and keep with me for the last few hundred metres. Small world!

My big limiter is my bike and comparing our 2 bike times kind of confirms that. I guess the key will be for me to improve my bike and hold my run times. Plus some improvements in my swim times!

Great thread here. Makes great reading. Best of luck with it delboy

LCD · 10-09-2009 02:44PM

Going back to your original plan with the 3 bikes a week I would suggest doing the 2 * 1hr sessions on a turbo trainer. Is no hassle with cars, free wheeling down hill, lights, etc. In 60mins can get a very focused session done.

Only done 1 IM but my thinking is that is all about the 12 week build leading up to the race. Take race day & count back 12 weeks & thats when all the serious training happens. Before that you train hard to get to week 12 in good shape to start training seriously. You dont start week 12 with nothing done. Starting week 12 you are fit enough to ride 6+hours, run 3hrs, swim 4km.

Consistency is the key, just get out the door & swim/bike/run as much as you can.

delboyfagan · 10-09-2009 02:54PM

HunnyMonster,

I suppose off the cuff is how u could describe it - although last few months have been good.

Up until this year - done a lot of three hour cycles with club and nearer dates went longer by going out an hour or two beforehand. But these weren't too many.

This year getting out a lot more regularly. Am doing race around ireland next week in a team of four. The other cyclists are stronger than me but have been cycling in and out of work (about 1 hr 10 each way) on and off. Last few months getting in anywhere from 8 to 10 hrs a week on bike but most of this has been one hr cycles (either swords race (30/40/50km)or cycle to work) with one long cycle from 3 to 5hrs long.

I suppose have been going fastish for a lot of the rides but hand on heart I have usualy been drafting off others.

Pgibbo,

Yep - remember you. There were about 4 of ye together when I looked behind - didnt think any of you would catch me. Held off other 3. Thought about trying to sneak up on you and sprint past u at end:). But didnt have legs!!

Intetrested,
Heard u meet at mate of mine at DCT. Hopefully see u out there and see what happens on day. U book Miami Aprts?

Tunney,

Have thought about coaches. My wife job shares as nurse and with three kids, my week varies greatly. Talked to a few coaches but none seem to take on board how each week my life can vary with certain time commitments.

Abhainn · 10-09-2009 03:09PM

tunney wrote: »

I have never worked with him nor do I know of anyone who has.

However from looking into him he appears to be a "pack em high" coach. What he offers:
* Detailed 4-week training schedules
I'd be more in favour of a weekly training schedule that adapts to life and training
* 20 minute Initial Phone Consultation
I'd expect this on at least a weekly basis
* Ongoing email communication
Okay
* Schedule adjustments
Wow - they can change your schedule???
* Benchmark Testing
I can do this for you
* Strength Training Program
I can do this for you

They don't seem to offer much really that I would say warrants the 145 dollars a month. I wouldn't quite call this coaching to be honest. To be honest it sounds like a rip off. Don't get me wrong, quality coaches cost big bucks and some coaches in the us charge 600+ dollars a month, but it all depends on what you get for your money and to be honest you don't get much here.

To be honest if you are going down the coaching route I can give you the name of some top UK based coaches that not only would do online coaching but will also be over in Ireland coaching from time to time and run excellent training camps in the UK. Not my coach he isn't taking anyone else on this year but I've worked with them before and they are excellent, I can only imagine that they would deliver the same standard of coaching that my coach does.

tunney I think Poncherello was referring to the training plans Don Fink describes in his book Be Iron Fit

i.e. the

Just Finsh Program- training peaks at 10hr / week
Intermediate program - peaks at 15hrs / week
Competitive program - peaks around 20hrs / week

tunney · 10-09-2009 03:35PM

LCD wrote: »

Going back to your original plan with the 3 bikes a week I would suggest doing the 2 * 1hr sessions on a turbo trainer. Is no hassle with cars, free wheeling down hill, lights, etc. In 60mins can get a very focused session done.

Only done 1 IM but my thinking is that is all about the 12 week build leading up to the race. Take race day & count back 12 weeks & thats when all the serious training happens. Before that you train hard to get to week 12 in good shape to start training seriously. You dont start week 12 with nothing done. Starting week 12 you are fit enough to ride 6+hours, run 3hrs, swim 4km.

Consistency is the key, just get out the door & swim/bike/run as much as you can.

Only done one IM

tunney · 10-09-2009 03:37PM

Abhainn wrote: »

tunney I think Poncherello was referring to the training plans Don Fink describes in his book Be Iron Fit

i.e. the

Just Finsh Program- training peaks at 10hr / week
Intermediate program - peaks at 15hrs / week
Competitive program - peaks around 20hrs / week

Oh never read them.

Competitive peaking at 20hrs?????

delboyfagan · 10-09-2009 05:41PM

tunney wrote: »

Oh never read them.

Competitive peaking at 20hrs?????

Is this deemed below par for a 'good' ironman time. I have been reading your blog, where your big weeks near the end well in excess of this. On your plan to Austria '09 what sort of hrs did you average per week.

Just courious?

hunnymonster · 10-09-2009 06:34PM

I dunno what tunney was doing but I'd be hitting 30 hours a week at the peak of IM training (longest individual session of 8 hours). The competitive peeps wouldn't be doing too much more than this, the advantage the pros have over the rest of us, is that we have to fit jobs, housework, family into the remainting time, pros only have to worry about massages and getting enough rest -)

tunney · 11-09-2009 09:09AM

delboyfagan wrote: »

Is this deemed below par for a 'good' ironman time. I have been reading your blog, where your big weeks near the end well in excess of this. On your plan to Austria '09 what sort of hrs did you average per week.

Just courious?

Average varied on phase and period in phase.

Big weeks would have been 24+, topping out at 30 or just over. Biggest sessions would have been five and a half hours. Won't be doing that this year given my change in circumstances come the new year

Will do what I can though.

mloc123 · 11-09-2009 09:32AM

tunney wrote: »

Won't be doing that this year given my change in circumstances come the new year Will do what I can though.

Baby Tunney on the way?

tunney · 11-09-2009 09:33AM

mloc123 wrote: »

Baby Tunney on the way?

I've just put on a few pounds.

Ironman Training Austria 2010 - Any advice on Plan taken

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