Ironman Training Austria 2010 - Any advice on Plan taken

delboyfagan

Heading off to do Austria next year, and hoping to put in a good showing.

Am 6ft and weight 93kgs, so am fully aware that first step is body compisition. This is something that I have been trying to do for years but just can't get head around it. Pig out a lot. Doing Challenge Barca in a few weeks but probably not going in shape I had hope to be in for race.

Anyways, starting 9th November the plan for 20 weeks to end of March is as follows:

Swim - 3 times a week in Belvedere. The session lasts for 45 mins in morning and by March I hope to have gotten this up to 15/20 mins before session starts, 45 min session and 200/300m cooldown.

Run - Long Run of 90/120 hrs, 1 easy run for 1 hr and 1 hr fartlek run for my third run (fartlek for example could be 20 mins @140, 5 mins @ 150, 5 mins @ 160)

Bike - Cycle with Swords on Saturday for 3 hrs. 2 by 1 hr sessions during week on well lit road near house. Thinking of big gear workout one night and mile intervals the other.

Best time is 11hrs 58 mins for ironman distance with a swim time of 1hrs 6 mins, bike of 5hrs 30 mins and run of 5hrs 5 mins. I kinda use my weight as an excuse for bad running but maybe its lack of discipline on bike or just not enough consistency.

Hope I might have given some of ye guys enough info about me to give your opinion on the plan above. Is there any merits to it? Is it b"ll"ocks? Should I be running more?

Any suggestions, hopefully constructive, would be appreciated.

tunney

delboyfagan wrote: »

Heading off to do Austria next year, and hoping to put in a good showing.

Am 6ft and weight 93kgs, so am fully aware that first step is body compisition. This is something that I have been trying to do for years but just can't get head around it. Pig out a lot. Doing Challenge Barca in a few weeks but probably not going in shape I had hope to be in for race.

Anyways, starting 9th November the plan for 20 weeks to end of March is as follows:

Swim - 3 times a week in Belvedere. The session lasts for 45 mins in morning and by March I hope to have gotten this up to 15/20 mins before session starts, 45 min session and 200/300m cooldown.

Run - Long Run of 90/120 hrs, 1 easy run for 1 hr and 1 hr fartlek run for my third run (fartlek for example could be 20 mins @140, 5 mins @ 150, 5 mins @ 160)

Bike - Cycle with Swords on Saturday for 3 hrs. 2 by 1 hr sessions during week on well lit road near house. Thinking of big gear workout one night and mile intervals the other.

Best time is 11hrs 58 mins for ironman distance with a swim time of 1hrs 6 mins, bike of 5hrs 30 mins and run of 5hrs 5 mins. I kinda use my weight as an excuse for bad running but maybe its lack of discipline on bike or just not enough consistency.

Hope I might have given some of ye guys enough info about me to give your opinion on the plan above. Is there any merits to it? Is it b"ll"ocks? Should I be running more?

Any suggestions, hopefully constructive, would be appreciated.

At 6 feet you should be closer to 73kgs Time to lose that weight is now, after December the stresses of training and losing weight are too much combined.

I'm guessing the Belvo sessions are the Aer Lingus Masters ones. Sessions as far as I know are 2k tops, thats about 2k short. And maybe a little too intense?

Cycling - three rides is what I'd aim for alright but the longer ride should be well up on three hours by the end of march. I also question the merits of riding with a cycling club.

Your swim time is reasonable, your bike time is decent, but the run time is, obviously, what killed you, and at 93kg will continue to kill you. The weight needs to come down. When you biked 5:30 was that overcooking it a little? Maybe more IM paced intervals (45-60 minutes) on the bike that are strictly hr or power capped, and be honest with yourself, may help you keep the bike in check in Austria.

BG work is a must I think, althought I think a turbo is a better place for it.

I know - alot of words from a guy thats never done an IM but hey my 2c.

MCOS

tunney can you elaborate a little on 'big gear work'?

Thanks

delboyfagan

Many thanks for the reply Tunney. I might just pick ur brains on some of the answers that u gave:

Re Swim. Yes Aer LIngus is right. If you go down a group, to a slower group - would that negate the intensity issue? Re distance u are right but if added on maybe 750/100 as warm up and 200/300 as coold down would be up over three. Or should the distance u try and achieve be 3/4k without warm or cool down.

Run - yep didnt have HR on race day and don't use it too much so have to start. I know weight is issue.

Big Question to all u triathletes out there that weight low 70kgs - are u naturally thin or do u avoid bad foods and have a good diet. How do u avoid the sit down at home after the meal and eat biscuits hour?

Bike: Yep - the bike course is easy - don't think I overly pushed - but then again no Hr or power tap to let me know if was or was not.

I have read your posts before re merits of goup cycling. Just find it harder to get out on own!!

tunney

delboyfagan wrote: »

Many thanks for the reply Tunney. I might just pick ur brains on some of the answers that u gave:

Re Swim. Yes Aer LIngus is right. If you go down a group, to a slower group - would that negate the intensity issue? Re distance u are right but if added on maybe 750/100 as warm up and 200/300 as coold down would be up over three. Or should the distance u try and achieve be 3/4k without warm or cool down.

As long as you add on the warm up and cool down no problems, woudln't stress about the intensity, actually swimming with better swimmers will help you.

delboyfagan wrote: »

Run - yep didnt have HR on race day and don't use it too much so have to start. I know weight is issue.

Get used to using it, its essentially (if you need a HRM I'm selling one )

delboyfagan wrote: »

Big Question to all u triathletes out there that weight low 70kgs - are u naturally thin or do u avoid bad foods and have a good diet. How do u avoid the sit down at home after the meal and eat biscuits hour?

I'm 5 10 and naturdally a fat fcuk (I have been 99kg) . I've been down to 67kg before for a season and was at 69kg last season, would have liked to have been 68kg for austria last year but in the end it wouldn't have made a difference. I'm 73kg at the moment. When I'm trying to shift weight I'll eat heathly 6 days of the week and one day I'll allow myself treats, but only high fat not high sugar ones (insulin, whole other thread). This means you can get some treats and it also means you are more likely to shift weight, once the weight is gone I try to maintain a balance between calories eaten and calories required. For us natural fatties discipline is the only way to go.

delboyfagan wrote: »

Bike: Yep - the bike course is easy - don't think I overly pushed - but then again no Hr or power tap to let me know if was or was not.

Bike course is not easy in IM Austria, it can be fast, that is a big difference. 5:50 would suggest you pushed too hard.

delboyfagan wrote: »

I have read your posts before re merits of goup cycling. Just find it harder to get out on own!!

I'm a big fan of group cycling, just as long as it is the right group, doing the right training, at the right intensity.

Roll on July 4th! This could be my favourite thread on boards for the next year!

hunnymonster

I agree with 100% of what Tunney has said but I think there is more than your weight involved in the shocking run time. For comparison, I'm about 15 kgs over what I should be and for a 5:30 bike time, I'm looking at a 3:40 marathon (mind you my swimming is pants so it's swings and roundabouts). There also seems to be a lot of routineness in your plan. For every session you do you should answer

what (e.g. long swim, 5 km)
how (e.g. 1500 wu, 10x100 on X sec,......)
when (e.g. Thur morning )
why: (e.g. work on swimming endurance, particular attention to form when tired)
progression/step back/ skills acquisition? (e.g. progression from last weeks 4.5 km swim)
feel: (e.g. slept really well so felt well up for this, was starving afterwards)
you can always add to this to include nutrition, sleep hours, other stresses, nutrition etc

For example, 1 would do 3xswim (1 long, 1 technique, 1 speed) 3x bike (1 long (up to 7:30) with short brick, 1 medium (~3 hrs), 1 speed), 3x run (1 long, 1 medium, 1 speed). I also do some weights sessions but that's a personal thing. Sometimes I'll also do some recovery sessions. They use some extra calories, help recovery of tired muscles and make me feel better but only to be done if body can handle them. i can send you some training logs from a previous race if that might help?

hunnymonster

what's your flat marathon time, when you don't have the swim and bike thrown in as a warm-up?

Mickeybags

It seems that running and your weight are your limiters.

How about concentrating on these from now on.

You mention that you train with a swimming group and a cycling group.

Have you considered running with a club or indeed using a run coach?

How about consulting a dietician?

If you have already done a few IM's and nothing much is changing perhaps it is time for a new and radicle approach rather than trying copy or imitate other peoples training plans.

It can be very easy to overeat while on the bike and indeed afterwards.
Swimming also generates an enormous appetite.
Whereas running often dulls the appetite.

I hope I am not coming across as too harsh :mad: but how about using the next year to focus on becoming a slimmer and better runner

tunney

hunnymonster wrote: »

I think there is more than your weight involved in the shocking run time.

I agree I am convinced he overcooked the bike.

tunney

Mickeybags wrote: »

It seems that running and your weight are your limiters.

How about concentrating on these from now on.

Agree with the weight, disagree with the running. I think his biking is probably a limiter. But to be use we'd need some testin done

Mickeybags wrote: »

You mention that you train with a swimming group and a cycling group.

Have you considered running with a club or indeed using a run coach?

Over rated for triathletes, especially longer distances ones. ( the club business that is)

Mickeybags wrote: »

How about consulting a dietician?

I did this, recommend it.

Delboy - this is all constructive, I'm looking forward to a few post race beers next year with ya in Austria.

Poncherello

Hunny, Tunney what are your thoughts on Don Finks training plans ?

delboyfagan

Guys

Again thanks for replies.

Hunnymonster,

Times have come down each time. I actually was a lot heavier than I am now:

2003 Austria -15hrs 01 mins - don't know how I did it as totally unprepared. Only ever did one olympic tri before in 2000 in Sligo in which I was last.

2005 - did Lanza easy as was doing Austria a few weeks later. Time 14hrs 58 mins.

2005 - Austria - 12hrs 48 mins give or take.

2008 - Germany - 11 hrs 58 mins

Actually never ran stand alone marathon. For 5 miler I run 36 mins (phoenix park 5 miler). For 10 miler around 84 mins (phoenix park again).

Reading your comment re 'shocking time' - I agree - just hard to take it on board when u see it on paper. Hopefully use it as motivator.

I will do a timetable alright as u suggested. Actually looking at what u say, I suppose I do the complete opposite. I kinda wake up and decide what I want to do there and then as opposed to have a detailed plan written down. So will put a weekly plan in place and try and stick to it and know the reason for each session as opposed to the ad hoc approach used at moment.

Have also though about weights - something have never done consistently.

Mickeybags,

I do swim and cycle as they are on early morns. Most running clubs run Tuesday/Thursday evenings for example and with 3 young kids I try and avoid that.

Will focus on weight - as ye all say. Re run - have read a number of threads on slowtwitch re improving runs and a lot of experienced people say to up it to 6/7 runs a week. Are there big improvements to be seen from this approach? ?Even if done for 3/4 months over winter.

Tunney,

Re dietican (as stated by Mickey) - did the one you use have specific knowledge of tris and the stresses/intakes required as opposed to a general dietcian without any sport specific knowldge.

Re testing - any advice taken on board

The bike probably is a limiter. Kinda hate to admit it. In a lot of tri I do now I think I am up in top 10/15% on bike. For example I did Ballina this year. I was 21st in swim, 16th on bike and 117th on run with a time of 24.30 for 5km - bad. Sometimes I come out of a tri saying yes I was bad but I was 5/6/16th on bike - as someone once told me its a three event race not a cycling race.

Re pint - yep - if I beat u - u can buy them all night.

Big post guys - thanks again for reading and replying. And none of the replies have come acrioss as harsh - in fact opposite and helpful.

Mickeybags

First of all, well done on reducing you times down to sub 12.

Not sure what your goal for your next IM might be.

Possibly 11 hours ?

A reasonable breakdown might be
Swim 65mins
Bike 5.45
Run 4 hours
Transitions 10 mins

Looking at your stats and rating them, swimming well above average, bike above average and run below average.

Swim - done and dusted
Bike - room for improvement, but still pretty good
Run - could do a lot better

Without a stand alone marathon time it can be difficult to judge but using your 5 and 10 mile and putting them into McMillan they spit out 3.30 or 4 hour. (Not forgetting to throw in copious amounts of salt)
The difference between your 5 and 10 mile times suggest either poor pacing or lack of run fitness or a bit of both.

I would definely be in favour of increasing your run frequency over the coming months. Maybe cut back a bit on the long run until your body adapts to 4/5 runs a week

Mickeybags

Correct pacing, race strategy and execution of on race day are of course important factors.
How have you fared out on these?

tunney

Mickeybags wrote: »

First of all, well done on reducing you times down to sub 12.

Not sure what your goal for your next IM might be.

Possibly 11 hours ?

A reasonable breakdown might be
Swim 65mins
Bike 5.45
Run 4 hours
Transitions 10 mins

Looking at your stats and rating them, swimming well above average, bike above average and run below average.

Swim - done and dusted
Bike - room for improvement, but still pretty good
Run - could do a lot better

Without a stand alone marathon time it can be difficult to judge but using your 5 and 10 mile and putting them into McMillan they spit out 3.30 or 4 hour. (Not forgetting to throw in copious amounts of salt)
The difference between your 5 and 10 mile times suggest either poor pacing or lack of run fitness or a bit of both.

I would definely be in favour of increasing your run frequency over the coming months. Maybe cut back a bit on the long run until your body adapts to 4/5 runs a week

McMillan isn't worth a damn......

I wouldn't go as far to say that the swim is done and dusted, to avoid the intial T1 and bike chaos you need to be sub 1:00.

I would revise the times to
Swim 65mins
Bike 6.00
Run 3:40 hours
Transitions 10 mins

Time on the bike done more easily will mean less likely of walking (outside of any run/walk strategy I mean)

hunnymonster

What has your bike training been for previous races?

hunnymonster

sorry about using the word "shocking". I mean it relative to the swim and bike times. You're obviously able to do much better, we just need to figure out the best way to do it. I'm starting to get the feeling that adding structure to both your training and diet is going to help you no end.

tunney

Poncherello wrote: »

Hunny, Tunney what are your thoughts on Don Finks training plans ?

I have never worked with him nor do I know of anyone who has.

However from looking into him he appears to be a "pack em high" coach. What he offers:
* Detailed 4-week training schedules
I'd be more in favour of a weekly training schedule that adapts to life and training
* 20 minute Initial Phone Consultation
I'd expect this on at least a weekly basis
* Ongoing email communication
Okay
* Schedule adjustments
Wow - they can change your schedule???
* Benchmark Testing
I can do this for you
* Strength Training Program
I can do this for you

They don't seem to offer much really that I would say warrants the 145 dollars a month. I wouldn't quite call this coaching to be honest. To be honest it sounds like a rip off. Don't get me wrong, quality coaches cost big bucks and some coaches in the us charge 600+ dollars a month, but it all depends on what you get for your money and to be honest you don't get much here.

To be honest if you are going down the coaching route I can give you the name of some top UK based coaches that not only would do online coaching but will also be over in Ireland coaching from time to time and run excellent training camps in the UK. Not my coach he isn't taking anyone else on this year but I've worked with them before and they are excellent, I can only imagine that they would deliver the same standard of coaching that my coach does.

tunney

hunnymonster wrote: »

sorry about using the word "shocking". I mean it relative to the swim and bike times. You're obviously able to do much better, we just need to figure out the best way to do it. I'm starting to get the feeling that adding structure to both your training and diet is going to help you no end.

Agreed, and discipline on the biking. Throw ego and pride out the window. Its a swim+bike+RUN - if you're cooked from the bike you won't get the last bit

interested

tunney wrote: »

McMillan isn't worth a damn......

I wouldn't go as far to say that the swim is done and dusted, to avoid the intial T1 and bike chaos you need to be sub 1:00.

I would revise the times to
Swim 65mins
Bike 6.00
Run 3:40 hours
Transitions 10 mins

Time on the bike done more easily will mean less likely of walking (outside of any run/walk strategy I mean)

Id be in a similar position to OP in that swim and bike would be stronger than run. Someone mentioned to me before that your time on the bike in any tri should be the 'time you should do and not the time you can do'. The longer the distances the more that makes sense to me for both the swim and the bike. Having the resolve to execute that plan appropriately come race day is the key though - might be more pleasant to enjoy the bike in Barcelona and hold things for the run than elsewhere


Doh! just saw tunny's update I missed whilst typing re: discipline on the bike

pgibbo

delboyfagan wrote: »

The bike probably is a limiter. Kinda hate to admit it. In a lot of tri I do now I think I am up in top 10/15% on bike. For example I did Ballina this year. I was 21st in swim, 16th on bike and 117th on run with a time of 24.30 for 5km - bad. Sometimes I come out of a tri saying yes I was bad but I was 5/6/16th on bike - as someone once told me its a three event race not a cycling race.

Off topic I know but just checked Ballina results there. Looks like I caught you on the run and when i was passing you said you werre going to try and keep with me for the last few hundred metres. Small world! My big limiter is my bike and comparing our 2 bike times kind of confirms that. I guess the key will be for me to improve my bike and hold my run times. Plus some improvements in my swim times!

Great thread here. Makes great reading. Best of luck with it delboy

LCD

Going back to your original plan with the 3 bikes a week I would suggest doing the 2 * 1hr sessions on a turbo trainer. Is no hassle with cars, free wheeling down hill, lights, etc. In 60mins can get a very focused session done.

Only done 1 IM but my thinking is that is all about the 12 week build leading up to the race. Take race day & count back 12 weeks & thats when all the serious training happens. Before that you train hard to get to week 12 in good shape to start training seriously. You dont start week 12 with nothing done. Starting week 12 you are fit enough to ride 6+hours, run 3hrs, swim 4km.

Consistency is the key, just get out the door & swim/bike/run as much as you can.

delboyfagan

HunnyMonster,

I suppose off the cuff is how u could describe it - although last few months have been good.

Up until this year - done a lot of three hour cycles with club and nearer dates went longer by going out an hour or two beforehand. But these weren't too many.

This year getting out a lot more regularly. Am doing race around ireland next week in a team of four. The other cyclists are stronger than me but have been cycling in and out of work (about 1 hr 10 each way) on and off. Last few months getting in anywhere from 8 to 10 hrs a week on bike but most of this has been one hr cycles (either swords race (30/40/50km)or cycle to work) with one long cycle from 3 to 5hrs long.

I suppose have been going fastish for a lot of the rides but hand on heart I have usualy been drafting off others.

Pgibbo,

Yep - remember you. There were about 4 of ye together when I looked behind - didnt think any of you would catch me. Held off other 3. Thought about trying to sneak up on you and sprint past u at end:). But didnt have legs!!

Intetrested,
Heard u meet at mate of mine at DCT. Hopefully see u out there and see what happens on day. U book Miami Aprts?

Tunney,

Have thought about coaches. My wife job shares as nurse and with three kids, my week varies greatly. Talked to a few coaches but none seem to take on board how each week my life can vary with certain time commitments.

Abhainn

tunney wrote: »

I have never worked with him nor do I know of anyone who has.

However from looking into him he appears to be a "pack em high" coach. What he offers:
* Detailed 4-week training schedules
I'd be more in favour of a weekly training schedule that adapts to life and training
* 20 minute Initial Phone Consultation
I'd expect this on at least a weekly basis
* Ongoing email communication
Okay
* Schedule adjustments
Wow - they can change your schedule???
* Benchmark Testing
I can do this for you
* Strength Training Program
I can do this for you

They don't seem to offer much really that I would say warrants the 145 dollars a month. I wouldn't quite call this coaching to be honest. To be honest it sounds like a rip off. Don't get me wrong, quality coaches cost big bucks and some coaches in the us charge 600+ dollars a month, but it all depends on what you get for your money and to be honest you don't get much here.

To be honest if you are going down the coaching route I can give you the name of some top UK based coaches that not only would do online coaching but will also be over in Ireland coaching from time to time and run excellent training camps in the UK. Not my coach he isn't taking anyone else on this year but I've worked with them before and they are excellent, I can only imagine that they would deliver the same standard of coaching that my coach does.

tunney I think Poncherello was referring to the training plans Don Fink describes in his book Be Iron Fit

i.e. the

Just Finsh Program- training peaks at 10hr / week
Intermediate program - peaks at 15hrs / week
Competitive program - peaks around 20hrs / week

tunney

LCD wrote: »

Going back to your original plan with the 3 bikes a week I would suggest doing the 2 * 1hr sessions on a turbo trainer. Is no hassle with cars, free wheeling down hill, lights, etc. In 60mins can get a very focused session done.

Only done 1 IM but my thinking is that is all about the 12 week build leading up to the race. Take race day & count back 12 weeks & thats when all the serious training happens. Before that you train hard to get to week 12 in good shape to start training seriously. You dont start week 12 with nothing done. Starting week 12 you are fit enough to ride 6+hours, run 3hrs, swim 4km.

Consistency is the key, just get out the door & swim/bike/run as much as you can.

Only done one IM

tunney

Abhainn wrote: »

tunney I think Poncherello was referring to the training plans Don Fink describes in his book Be Iron Fit

i.e. the

Just Finsh Program- training peaks at 10hr / week
Intermediate program - peaks at 15hrs / week
Competitive program - peaks around 20hrs / week

Oh never read them.

Competitive peaking at 20hrs?????

delboyfagan

tunney wrote: »

Oh never read them.

Competitive peaking at 20hrs?????

Is this deemed below par for a 'good' ironman time. I have been reading your blog, where your big weeks near the end well in excess of this. On your plan to Austria '09 what sort of hrs did you average per week.

Just courious?

hunnymonster

I dunno what tunney was doing but I'd be hitting 30 hours a week at the peak of IM training (longest individual session of 8 hours). The competitive peeps wouldn't be doing too much more than this, the advantage the pros have over the rest of us, is that we have to fit jobs, housework, family into the remainting time, pros only have to worry about massages and getting enough rest -)

tunney

delboyfagan wrote: »

Is this deemed below par for a 'good' ironman time. I have been reading your blog, where your big weeks near the end well in excess of this. On your plan to Austria '09 what sort of hrs did you average per week.

Just courious?

Average varied on phase and period in phase.

Big weeks would have been 24+, topping out at 30 or just over. Biggest sessions would have been five and a half hours. Won't be doing that this year given my change in circumstances come the new year Will do what I can though.

mloc123

tunney wrote: »

Won't be doing that this year given my change in circumstances come the new year Will do what I can though.

Baby Tunney on the way?

tunney

mloc123 wrote: »

Baby Tunney on the way?

I've just put on a few pounds.

potsy11

Hey Guys,

I was just reading this post and thought i'd give my twopence worth.

I did Austria last year and like delboyfagan and tunny I was a bit of a fatty coming into the sport:). I was around 92-95kgs after playing rugby.

Anyway, I found it hard initially to shift the weight but once i tweeked the diet (beers and wrong foods) I started to drop the weight. At race day I was 75kgs at the moment i am around 80kgs (6' tall).

I did Austria in 10hrs 45 mins in what was only my second year in tri. I did not have a backround in swim, run or bike.

i found this website www.beginnertriathlete.com and have used it ever since. Its cheap and the variety of plans, access to coaches, nutrionists and blogs is incredible. You have your own diary so you cna monitor your weekly,monthly, yearly hours. Alot of people turn their noses up at it because its called BEGINNER Triathlete but I assure you its far more advanced than people think.

i did an 8 hour bike winter maintenance plan followed by the baisc 20 week IM plan with peak hours of 17-18. I covered 92% of the 20 week plan. On race day I would have been happy with 12hrs and to come in under 11 was well beyond what I thought was capable for me.

This is just my experience and as a result I would highly recommend having a look at the website.

Potsy

Notwitch

Still on target?

Some great early phase advice here.

Maybe time for an update from those of you more experienced?

Hitting the big weeks and long bike time is proving to be a key constraint. Maybe ironman and young families doesn't work! Probably looking a 1 4-5 hour weekly ride and then 2 or 3 in the 1 - 2.5 hour range.

Not sure what intervals work best at this stage especially as the shorter rides may well still be turbo based - should I be looking at 2-3 * 20mins sweetspot or 40 mins im pacing??

Still figuring out what IM pacing should be - probably looking a candidate for the classic newbie mistake of overcooking the bike! No powermeter i'm afraid so trying to work off heart rate.

Any advice appreciated!!

tunney

Notwitch wrote: »

Still on target?

Some great early phase advice here.

Maybe time for an update from those of you more experienced?

Hitting the big weeks and long bike time is proving to be a key constraint. Maybe ironman and young families doesn't work! Probably looking a 1 4-5 hour weekly ride and then 2 or 3 in the 1 - 2.5 hour range.

Not sure what intervals work best at this stage especially as the shorter rides may well still be turbo based - should I be looking at 2-3 * 20mins sweetspot or 40 mins im pacing??

Still figuring out what IM pacing should be - probably looking a candidate for the classic newbie mistake of overcooking the bike! No powermeter i'm afraid so trying to work off heart rate.

Any advice appreciated!!

IM pacing - a very interesting topic.

I've had this conversation a good few times already this year. Always been fun Some people (and their coaches) have some strange notions (or lack of knowledge) and I am not looking forward to reading their race reports. tales of heart ache and woe and "I walked from 5km" are not nice reading.

Imagine an exponential curve starting on the left going to its peak on the right. There are a few points on this curve of significance. Working from the left the first is LT1, commonly known as aerobic threshold, this is your all day pace (provided sufficent fuel). The next is LT2, also known as anaerobic threshold or OBLA, this is pretty much your 10 minute pace (or at least very short term). The next, and last of significance here, is Wvo2max - your power at Vo2max. Somewhere between LT1 and LT2 is your functional threshold power - or best power you can hold for an hour. Usually its around 90% of your LT2 but can variable significantly.

Now back to IM pacing.

The body has a finite store of carbohydrates in it. Call this X kcal.
The body can absorb calories at a person specific rate and using the duration of the event and this rate you can determine how many calories the body can absorb during the event. Call this Y kcal.

X+Y= the total amount of calories available from carbohydrates/gylcogen for this event. Any energy demands above this number must be met from fat stores.

X is typically in the region of 2500kcal
Y is generally 280-380kcal an hour. Lets assume an 8 hour event here - 2200kcal (if you take too much on you will suffer from GI issues)

So the body has about 4700 kcal to play with.

A 5:35 bike would completely deplete the glycogen and use any carbohydrate taken on board for the whole event if fuelled solely from carbohydrates. Now obviously you will use fat as well - but you still have to fuel the swim and the run. Lets assume a 1:15 swim and a 4:00 marathon. This is an additional 4400kcal.

This is why its your fuel usage mix that determines your IM pace. If you chew up your CHO on the bike you will have no possible way to get more in for the run or, more likely, the latter half of the run. This is why you need to ride the bike at a pace at which you are fuelling alot from fat. This pace can be determine as the point at which you burn more than a certain number of grams of carbohydrate per minute.

Now how does this relate to the first bit. Where does this CHO:Fat point lie? In all the tests that I have seen performed on numerous athletes ranging from Pro Ironmen, to 13 hour ironmen, 8:30 amateurs to 10:15 amateurs, this point is always further left than LT1. However left depends on the athlete, their training and their diet.

Some athletes have petrol engines - their LT1 is way less than their maxes and their cho:fat point lies alot to the left of LT1. But they can go damn fast over shorter distances. I know one athlete whose wvo2max is huge, their LT1 is massive, but they exceed their cho:fat usage warming up.

Some athletes have diesel engines - their LT1, LT2 and wVo2max are close together and their cho:fat point is close to their LT1. They will never be fast but can go at a high percentage of their max for long distances.

For IM you want a turbo diesel - fast but efficient. I know one lad like this and he is a beast at all distances.

So back to the point - how to pace your IM bike, without going into a lab and all the science - imagine a pace you would feel comfortable holding for 180km. Now go slower.

shotgunmcos

Cheers for the science there Tunney. Reminds me of getting a muscle biopsy done years ago for rowing and me wondering what a petrol head like me was doing thinking about an endurance sport!


A bit off topic (hope the progress is going well OP!), if you were to recommend a few Ironman related books to dive into at the end of the season, what would they be?

Thanks

potsy11

Hey. I just took a quick look at my stats from the bike leg. I know we are not like for like but avg HR was 149 or 79% max HR was 179 or 96% ( stupid Rupitiberg climb!!). My goal was 75% so not too far off. The run avg 81% or 152.

Did bike in 5.45.

When I get s chance I'll cut and paste the entire report for ya.

In the mean time get ALL of those long cyles in. Keep up ghe training. Only a few more weeks to taper.

potsy11

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Cheers for the science there Tunney. Reminds me of getting a muscle biopsy done years ago for rowing and me wondering what a petrol head like me was doing thinking about an endurance sport!


A bit off topic (hope the progress is going well OP!), if you were to recommend a few Ironman related books to dive into at the end of the season, what would they be?

Thanks

Becoming an Ironman. In all good bookshops. It's a right of passage for all doing the event. Short stories from the earlier pioneers. Have a box of cleenx beside the bed. Use them for crying and nothing else!!

big mce

tunney wrote: »

Some athletes have petrol engines - their LT1 is way less than their maxes and their cho:fat point lies alot to the left of LT1. But they can go damn fast over shorter distances. I know one athlete whose wvo2max is huge, their LT1 is massive, but they exceed their cho:fat usage warming up.

Some athletes have diesel engines - their LT1, LT2 and wVo2max are close together and their cho:fat point is close to their LT1. They will never be fast but can go at a high percentage of their max for long distances.

For IM you want a turbo diesel - fast but efficient. I know one lad like this and he is a beast at all distances.

So back to the point - how to pace your IM bike, without going into a lab and all the science - imagine a pace you would feel comfortable holding for 180km. Now go slower.

Jaysus don't let the greens hear all this chat about petrol and diesel or they'll be taxing ironman races aswell.

Well explained Tunney. I'm hoping I can run on Hydrogen:D

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Cheers for the science there Tunney. Reminds me of getting a muscle biopsy done years ago for rowing and me wondering what a petrol head like me was doing thinking about an endurance sport!


A bit off topic (hope the progress is going well OP!), if you were to recommend a few Ironman related books to dive into at the end of the season, what would they be?

Thanks

I'd ignore most of the ironman books to be honest, all sh!te in my experience.

I've yet to see a IM book that addresses what I see as the differences between short and long course.

If I had to read one it would be something by Gordo Byrne.

tunney

potsy11 wrote: »

Hey. I just took a quick look at my stats from the bike leg. I know we are not like for like but avg HR was 149 or 79% max HR was 179 or 96% ( stupid Rupitiberg climb!!). My goal was 75% so not too far off. The run avg 81% or 152.

Did bike in 5.45.

When I get s chance I'll cut and paste the entire report for ya.

In the mean time get ALL of those long cyles in. Keep up ghe training. Only a few more weeks to taper.

The proof of a well paced bike is not in the bike time but in the run.

Notwitch

and therein lies the problem.

Thanks tunney. Very helpful.

Now need to get back to figuring out travel logistics - i know, i'm a muppet.

Potsy11, well done on last year. Any advice on travel and accomodation (which at this stage will probably be well outside Klag!) All options considered!

It would be great to see the full report if you get a chance.

ironmanwannabe

Notwitch wrote: »

and therein lies the problem.

Thanks tunney. Very helpful.

Now need to get back to figuring out travel logistics - i know, i'm a muppet.

Potsy11, well done on last year. Any advice on travel and accomodation (which at this stage will probably be well outside Klag!) All options considered!

It would be great to see the full report if you get a chance.

I only booked my accomodation and flights yesterday. Still plenty of accomodation but its not cheap as they all want to charge you for 7 nights even if you are only staying 2.

potsy11

tunney wrote: »

The proof of a well paced bike is not in the bike time but in the run.

Did the run in 3.42.....Plenty of proof there!!:D:D

tunney

potsy11 wrote: »

Did the run in 3.42.....Plenty of proof there!!:D:D

But whats your straight marathon time?

potsy11

tunney wrote: »

But whats your straight marathon time?

Oops minor error.....It was 3:51:15

Dublin 07: 3:52
IM Austria 08: 3:51
New York 08: 3:36
Dublin 09: 3:26

Notwitch

The way i've been reading the nutrition info on the IM Austria page they'll be giving out both flavours of powerbar gels and bars throughout the bike / run.

I have a sudden dread that i've misinterpreted this??

Any issues picking up gels from the aid stations on the bike?

hunnymonster

Notwitch wrote: »

Any issues picking up gels from the aid stations on the bike?

shouldn't be. The aid stations are usually pretty long and the helpers stand with their arms out. The only problem I've ever had is someone in front of me who almost stops to grab a gel and then pulls out doing 5 mph.

tunney

I thought that last year that they were only going out gels on the bike and no bars on the bike. That being said i don't really remember much and only did the first 66km.

potsy11

In 08 they gave out everything on the bike. Aid stations have about 10-15 people on each side of the road. Most of the stations were well spread out. Half Bananas, half power bar Bars, gels (different flavours so its pot luck what you are handed), Sports Bottles of water and sports drink.

jamesd77

Hi Lads
Sorry for high jacking the thread. Im doing Austria 2011, its my first IM. A question about the cycle course if i may.
Would you guys do much hill work in prep for this race?
I start my bike training from the Phoenix park and head out from there. Any suggested routes that might mimic the course?

Thanks in advance for any tips.

tunney

jamesd77 wrote: »

Hi Lads
Sorry for high jacking the thread. Im doing Austria 2011, its my first IM. A question about the cycle course if i may.
Would you guys do much hill work in prep for this race?
I start my bike training from the Phoenix park and head out from there. Any suggested routes that might mimic the course?

Thanks in advance for any tips.

The course is mainly flat, with two short sharp climbs and longer easier descents. The climbs are tough and devils glen would be the only climb I know that mimics the harder of the Austrian climbs. Nothing near Phoenix park that would cover it, hills of wicklow are one. I did most of my cycling in around Naul or the N3 to cavan