Samurai Swords now banned

Karl Hungus · 03-09-2009 08:42AM

kraggy wrote: »

Just because you have them as ornaments doesn't mean other people will hold them with the same respect.

Lamps, candle stick holders, miniature statues, clocks, just a few of a great many ornaments that other people may not hold with the same respect.

Speaking of items that people may not hold with the same respect I do and can be put to lethal use, I wonder will they ban my chair leg of truth?

cherryghost · 03-09-2009 09:34AM

the whole point is, samurai swords are an obscure thing, and a ridiculous item to ban. Kitchen knives are smaller, easier to hide, and more plentiful than samurai swords, so why the hell would someone go through the bother of banning it when we all know that samurai swords dont kill people, KITCHEN KNIVES do.

When someone gets stabbed, you usually hear its either a pocket knife or a kitchen knife, not a bloomin' samurai sword. its ridiculous. the whole 'ban it before theres an incident' thing is also ridiculous, considering that there are other things that are more dangerous in this country, yet are legal?

gavney · 03-09-2009 10:11AM

cherryghost wrote: »

the whole point is, samurai swords are an obscure thing, and a ridiculous item to ban. Kitchen knives are smaller, easier to hide, and more plentiful than samurai swords, so why the hell would someone go through the bother of banning it when we all know that samurai swords dont kill people, KITCHEN KNIVES do.

When someone gets stabbed, you usually hear its either a pocket knife or a kitchen knife, not a bloomin' samurai sword. its ridiculous. the whole 'ban it before theres an incident' thing is also ridiculous, considering that there are other things that are more dangerous in this country, yet are legal?

IMO, the uselessness of samurai swords is an extra reason for the government to justify banning them. Hardly anyone is going to miss them, and they serve no real purpose other than to decorate someone's room or to (admittedly on very very rare occasions) to harm somebody. Kitchen knives are probably much more of a threat- partly cause they're so widely available and partly because IMO they're actually a handier weapon if you're carrying them around the street (smaller, more concealable). But to ban them would remove something very useful.

Again, I'm not saying that banning samurai swords is going to do much good other than to protect the government from a public backlash for not banning them if someone gets hurt by one. BUT I don't like the kitchen knives/ wensley dale cheese counter-argument

Manic Moran · 03-09-2009 11:05AM

How about cheese-wire then? You don't really need it to cut cheese, after all, you can quite adequately cut cheese with a knife, so why have something that you can use to garotte someone lying around?

There is a point wherin people should become responsible for their own actions, not the State.

NTM

Dyr · 03-09-2009 11:10AM

here's the thiing manic, this is ireland where people own mesh curtains just so they can stare out from behind them, "dat shouldn't be allowed" is half this countries mantra. conformist little sheepy people.

dresden8 · 03-09-2009 11:32AM

kraggy wrote: »

Or maybe for once our government is actually not waiting for something tragic to happen before making a move and actually being proactive.

Just because you have them as ornaments doesn't mean other people will hold them with the same respect.

According to the Factbook there was an 8 per cent (31) drop in road deaths in 2006 (365) compared to 2005 (396). Of the 28,417 Garda-recorded motor vehicle traffic collisions that took place in 2006 a total of 365 people were killed, 907 were seriously injured and 8,575 suffered minor injuries.

http://www.corkindependent.com/local-news/local-news/death-rate-per-vehicle-halves-in-ten-years/

Just because you have them as transport doesn't mean other people will hold them with the same respect.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-09-2009 11:34AM

Political window dressing by a government in its death throes.

I'd love to run a samurai sword through the lot of 'em.

.

AnonoBoy · 03-09-2009 11:46AM

Izaiah Chilly Roadway wrote: »

Political window dressing by a government in its death throes.

I'd love to run a samurai sword through the lot of 'em.

.

:eek: They got that ban through just in time.

Dyr · 03-09-2009 11:48AM

I'd prefer if they were impaled on kebab skewers just to show them how useless this legislation is

Kimbot · 03-09-2009 11:55AM

So what really does this mean folks??

Does it mean that if you have a samurai sword you have to hand it into the cops etc? If so will they refund your money??

Donny5 · 03-09-2009 12:11PM

jonny24ie wrote: »

So what really does this mean folks??

Does it mean that if you have a samurai sword you have to hand it into the cops etc? If so will they refund your money??

It means don't get caught.

Also, you definitely won't be getting your money back.

Kimbot · 03-09-2009 12:14PM

Donny5 wrote: »

It means don't get caught.

Also, you definitely won't be getting your money back.

Balls to that, if I pay good money for something that was legal at the time and the government ban it then they should by right reimburse me as I have done nothing wrong at all!!

If thats the case they can ban cars, we hand them in they sell them to the UK or somewhere else and make money and as soon as all cars are gone lift the ban!! :pac:

Donny5 · 03-09-2009 12:27PM

jonny24ie wrote: »

Balls to that, if I pay good money for something that was legal at the time and the government ban it then they should by right reimburse me as I have done nothing wrong at all!!

If thats the case they can ban cars, we hand them in they sell them to the UK or somewhere else and make money and as soon as all cars are gone lift the ban!! :pac:

That's a little contived, tbh. The fact is you won't get your money back. Losses caused by new legislation are almost never reimbursed by the state. It didn't happen with pistols, leaded petrol, the smoking ban or the NCT, it won't happen for you.

AnonoBoy · 03-09-2009 01:03PM

jonny24ie wrote: »

If thats the case they can ban cars, we hand them in they sell them to the UK or somewhere else and make money and as soon as all cars are gone lift the ban!! :pac:

I think we've finally found our way out of this recession!

Cuddlesworth · 03-09-2009 01:06PM

MikeC101 wrote: »

From http://www.oxygen.ie/page/1227

You should work for the Onion.

AnonoBoy · 03-09-2009 01:11PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You should work for the Onion.

Nah that Oxygen site is pants compared to The Onion (and there's been far better Irish satirical sites over the years)

whitetigerkungf · 03-09-2009 01:27PM

look all this talk of samura swords are useless and should be banned is rubbish. just because one person thinks its useless does not mean noone else should have one. I personally think religion is useless does that mean we should ban that. The fact remains to practice some martial arts you need a sword there is a valid reasosn for having them. and as others have said they are used for cerimonial use. That "samurai sword" attack in fingles where the guy got his hand cut off was a machette not a katana. as i said before using the term samurai sword sells more papers. this ban which im going to assume they're goin to just copy and paste the english one as usual, only covers CURVED blade. therefore people can still buy all the straight bladed weapons they like. Broad swords etc.

The other thing is this discussion on the crap replicas available, these 99.99% of the time are rubbish chinese knock offs and wouldn't do sh*t to someone, if some one wants to be foolish enough to buy one of these that should be puinshment enough.

I have no problem registering my own sword. It would be coverd by the sword ban but it is in fact an iaito. It looks like a katana, has the same weight, and also is of a high build quility. the difference is its a zinc aluminium alow which can never take an edge no matter how long you stay at it. I think the main problem in this is the lack of knowledge in the irish public and the department of justice. the idea a samurai sword is a samurai sword is to honest bullsh*t.

MikeC101 · 03-09-2009 03:51PM

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

You should work for the Onion.

Just to point out, I didn't write that

Just stumbled across it on oxegen.

Manic Moran · 03-09-2009 04:14PM

this ban which im going to assume they're goin to just copy and paste the english one as usual, only covers CURVED blade.

Hmm.. So that would mean that if I went to a friend's military wedding in Ireland in full dress uniform, my cavalry sabre would have to be left behind?

How would I partake in the arch of swords? Irish officer's swords are straight, I'd feel a little left out if my curved one was forbidden. And you can run people through with either. (A cavalry sabre is designed for running people through, not slicing them, the curve is designed to make it easier to pull the sword out again, not to put it into people)

NTM

MikeC101 · 03-09-2009 04:25PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

(A cavalry sabre is designed for running people through, not slicing them, the curve is designed to make it easier to pull the sword out again, not to put it into people)

Where did you get this idea from?

While the merits of straight versus curved blade for cavalry swords are widely debated, the curve on a cavalry sword allows a mounted soldier to strike a strong cutting blow that doesn't get the sword trapped and wrenched from the hand. Nothing to do with easy removal of the sword.

Straight blades are far more effective for thrust and pulling out again, a curve wouldn't do much there at all.

Morlar · 03-09-2009 04:26PM

This whole thing is retarded. If you want to cut knife crime give the little fcukers a proper sentence for it instead of a suspended slap on the wrist with mandatory 25 % off for 'good behaviour', tv's in cells etc etc. If you stab someone when it is not in self defence etc you should get 10 yrs minimum - no exceptions for sob stories. Bring that law in and you will reduce knife crime.

Penalising law abiding people like sword collectors as they are an easy target for a knee jerk useless govt gesture is pretty offensive.

Kimbot · 03-09-2009 05:18PM

So I should still be good for this without the law punishing me??

http://www.swordsdirect.com/UC1401NEW.jpg

arybvtcw0eolkf · 03-09-2009 05:30PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

Irish officer's swords are straight, I'd feel a little left out if my curved one was forbidden.

You'll be fine, my sword has a little curve up near the top too

.

Manic Moran · 03-09-2009 05:46PM

MikeC101 wrote: »

Where did you get this idea from?

(Borrowing from Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines)

The same way I do everything else in the Army. I read from the Book of Instructions. (More commonly known as 'The Manual')

While the merits of straight versus curved blade for cavalry swords are widely debated, the curve on a cavalry sword allows a mounted soldier to strike a strong cutting blow that doesn't get the sword trapped and wrenched from the hand. Nothing to do with easy removal of the sword.

I guess I should have been more specific. The sabre that I have was designed for running people through.

Have a look at the 'charge' position for the sabre, at least in the US doctrine. The sword is held straight forward, blade upward, almost like a small lance, not high above the head for swipes and slashes. (French cavalry of the late 18th century had a similar preference, with Napoleon vocally stating a preferenceto his cavalry for the use of the point, but the British certainly preferred slashing). You will note that a 1902 pattern does not have as pronounced a curve to it as most traditional sabres do, and part of the reason it replaced the more curved 1860 pattern was that it was considered not stiff enough for thrusting. Other 'not quite as curved' sabres designed for thrusting include those used by the French Curassiers and the Indian Cavalry in the early 20th century. However, I acknowledge your comment that the curve vs straight is a matter of debate/preference.

Straight blades are far more effective for thrust and pulling out again, a curve wouldn't do much there at all.

Only if the swordsman is in the same place when he's withdrawing the sword as he was when he inserted it. Given that the 'removal' is going to happen more by way of the horseman going past the target and dragging his sword behind him as opposed to pulling it back out the way it came, a straight sword is going to be problematic as the removal is going to be at an upwards angle. That's where the curve comes in. Combined with the blade being upwards, the direction of 'pull' being back and up (to the target), the blade basically slices its way out.

So to that end, yes, the curve aids with the slicing and, as you say, stopping the sword getting trapped. But -after- running through.

Quoting the 1907 manual a bit:

To execute "Charge"

Raise the hand in tierce, as high as the eye, carry back the right shoulder, elbow to the rear, edge of the blade up, point to the front and high as the breast

With the horse in motion to the opponent, very little extension of the arm is required, the most important part being to direct the point quickly and accurately at the adversary

Indeed, by the time you get to the 1914 manual of saber, cuts are removed from the manual entirely, and it is purely thrusts. Interestingly, the 1913 saber had a cutting edge on both sides.

As the trooper extends his arm and body to the utmost he should rotate his hand to the left so that when fully extended the edge of the saber will be up and the fingernails to the right. The blade should be at the height of the eye, the line of sight parallel to the direction of the blade. The body should be bent forward so as to be nearly horizontal, the trooper making every effort to reach as far to the front as possible.

This is the position of Lunge to the right front, also the position of Charge Saber.

Being mounted and in any position: CHARGE SABER. Assume and hold the position of lunge to the right front, at the same time taking the gallop straight to the front unless some other gait and direction are indicated

(Piccie)
http://www.pattonhq.com/saber/31.gif

Insist that the trooper does not flinch, but keeps his full extension until the point has entered the dummy, and the instantly withdraws it and assumes guard with the rotation to the right described in point to the right front

NTM

MikeC101 · 03-09-2009 06:33PM

Manic Moran wrote: »

(Borrowing from Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines)

The same way I do everything else in the Army. I read from the Book of Instructions. (More commonly known as 'The Manual')

NTM

All good stuff - but it all relates to the use of thrusting (which I'd agree a curved sword can do almost as effectively as a straight blade) and positions to take to thrust.

There is not one statement that a curve is more effective for pulling a blade out of somebody, only discussion on how to thrust.

Your statement that a cavalry blade is curved to make it easier to pull out of people is what I take issue with, I am not debating the merits of thrust versus cut on horseback.

It's fairly simple - a curved sword with a point gives better cutting ability (though how much is debatable), and allows for thrusting also. It does not however, improve the ability to withdraw the sword from a body.

It wasn't me! · 03-09-2009 06:46PM

MikeC101 wrote: »

All good stuff - but it all relates to the use of thrusting (which I'd agree a curved sword can do almost as effectively as a straight blade) and positions to take to thrust.

There is not one statement that a curve is more effective for pulling a blade out of somebody, only discussion on how to thrust.

Your statement that a cavalry blade is curved to make it easier to pull out of people is what I take issue with, I am not debating the merits of thrust versus cut on horseback.

It's fairly simple - a curved sword with a point gives better cutting ability (though how much is debatable), and allows for thrusting also. It does not however, improve the ability to withdraw the sword from a body.

Logic alone dictates that from an elevated position, while moving in such a way that the guy you just stabbed is now moving past you, the path of least resistance means a curved blade will come out most easily, as a straight blade will catch more attempting to exit along the same straight wound channel.

NaiveMelodies · 03-09-2009 06:48PM

Funniest thing ever.. Friday night, 3 days before the ban came in, an after session got a bit out of hand, ending up with a mate getting arrested for running up and down the straight with a samurai sword.. lucky boy!

Manic Moran · 03-09-2009 07:06PM

It's fairly simple - a curved sword with a point gives better cutting ability (though how much is debatable), and allows for thrusting also. It does not however, improve the ability to withdraw the sword from a body.

It does, if you look at it from the perspective of a battle at 25mph. The horseman simply cannot, from his perspective, withdraw the sword in the reverse vector from the one along which it was inserted. There are only two ways a withdrawl can be successfully achieved: One is to pull the sword out in the reverse axis of the insertion into the body which requires that the target's body be rotated along with the sword as the horseman passes, with the accompanying not insignificant problems of momentum being passed through the sword and wrist, or the sword being withdrawn from the body in a different vector (respective to the body) from which it was inserted, which means that some cutting and slicing is inevitable. If you want to put it another way, there is going to be a small entry wound, and the exit wound is going to be elongated in a vertical direction.

As you point out, the curve on the blade helps with this cutting effect, thus making the withdrawl easier on the swordsman.

You will note that the US sabers retained a bit of a curve even while cutting was completely removed from the doctrine for their use.

NTM

Ri_Nollaig · 04-09-2009 10:13AM

Manic Moran wrote: »

It does, if you look at it from the perspective of a battle at 25mph. The horseman simply cannot, from his perspective, withdraw the sword in the reverse vector from the one along which it was inserted. There are only two ways a withdrawl can be successfully achieved: One is to pull the sword out in the reverse axis of the insertion into the body which requires that the target's body be rotated along with the sword as the horseman passes, with the accompanying not insignificant problems of momentum being passed through the sword and wrist, or the sword being withdrawn from the body in a different vector (respective to the body) from which it was inserted, which means that some cutting and slicing is inevitable. If you want to put it another way, there is going to be a small entry wound, and the exit wound is going to be elongated in a vertical direction.

As you point out, the curve on the blade helps with this cutting effect, thus making the withdrawl easier on the swordsman.

You will note that the US sabers retained a bit of a curve even while cutting was completely removed from the doctrine for their use.

NTM

sounds like a great laugh.

shame this came along then.

ChocolateSauce · 04-09-2009 12:34PM

Well I wrote a letter to Dermot Ahern about the ban and he passed it to one of his minions in the crime 4 division, and this guy sent this to me:

The State wrote:

Importantly in relation to your email, there are exceptions to the ban
designed for collectors and martial artists. The Department of Justice,
Equality and Law Reform sought and received the views of many of the
martial arts associations and other interested parties before amending the
legislation and attempted to specifically target the cheap mass-produced
imitation katana while leaving collectors and martial artists to pursue
their legitimate activities. This is not a blanket ban in that exemptions
have been made for swords manufactured before 1954 and for all katana made
at any other time according to traditional methods of making swords by
hand. The importation, sale, etc. of these katanas is unaffected.

Even if some of the katana you own do not date from before 1954 or are not
handmade then you still would not be breaking the law just by possessing
them at home. You would not be able to sell, hire, lend, etc but if you
have one already simple ownership or possession at home is not illegal.

Yippie.

Samurai Swords now banned

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