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New huge 'Victory Christian Fellowship' centre being completed in Firhouse, Dublin

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    #122
    Denalihighway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭Denalihighway


    Zillah wrote: »
    Behold! The awesome and terrifying power of the religious meme:



    Notice that the subject is quite capable of intelligent dialogue and yet can utter such staggering insanity as though it were entirely reasonable.

    This is not a work of fiction.
    This is not a work of satire.
    This is not a joke.

    This is what a real human being actually believes.

    yup...it would be funny if everyone had the power of rational and independent thought and were able to watch these people form a distance and just snigger at their ludicrous beliefs.

    but unfortunately, there are too many out there not as lucky as we are who are at the mercy of these headbangers like VCF who clearly have an organised and determined machine rolling.

    That tends to kill the humour a bit...


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    #123
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I had a look at their youtube channel - that is a big building.

    It is good to know the congregation won't have to park illegally once it is open.

    Saying they are a cell church sounds weird.


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    #124
    bluefinger
    Registered Users Posts: 1,801 ✭✭✭bluefinger


    Very interesting "debate". You literally can't win with some people, you can't even draw with others.

    Here's a video on that church. Looks like the 02 for god botherers. :)
    Would definitely put you in mind of one of those American cash cathedrals inhabited by your usual televangelist type.



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    #125
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Teaching children about a faith is simply not child abuse.

    What is then? You never really answered the questions put to you above about at what point does it become damaging to the child.

    It is very easy to say that in the abstract teaching children about "faith" is not damaging, after all how can simple faith in something be bad.

    What you are ignoring is the specific details of what your faith involves. It involves belief in some very scary traumatic stuff, stuff that if it was any other religion or group I imagine you would agree is not appropriate to be instructing children about. The fact that you believe that it is all true doesn't change that.


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    #126
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Not teaching a child right from wrong is neglectful. Not teaching a child about the dangers of the road, and of fire, or accepting lifts from strangers etc is also neglectful. Not teaching a child about God is also neglectful. Atheists by default are neglectful parents.


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    #127
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    ...Not teaching a child about God is also neglectful. Atheists by default are neglectful parents.

    Why?


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    #128
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Not teaching a child right from wrong is neglectful. Not teaching a child about the dangers of the road, and of fire, or accepting lifts from strangers etc is also neglectful. Not teaching a child about God is also neglectful. Atheists by default are neglectful parents.

    Not teaching boys that all men are selfish and will end up as mean aggressive abusive men is neglectful. Young men need to know this so they are aware about how flawed they are and maybe they can do something about it.

    Not teaching girls that all women are vindictive and manipulative and use sex to gain things is neglectful. Young women need to know this so they are aware about how mean they are and maybe they can grow up to be more respectful to men.

    It is not simply teaching children stuff Jimi, it is also what you teach them.


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    #129
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Not teaching a child right from wrong is neglectful. Not teaching a child about the dangers of the road, and of fire, or accepting lifts from strangers etc is also neglectful. Not teaching a child about the Christian God is also neglectful. Atheists by default are neglectful parents.

    I fixed that for you.

    I'm assuming here, you're not going to teach any future offspring about all the other gods. I mean it would be neglectful not to.


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    #130
    Denalihighway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭Denalihighway


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Not teaching a child right from wrong is neglectful. Not teaching a child about the dangers of the road, and of fire, or accepting lifts from strangers etc is also neglectful. Not teaching a child about God is also neglectful. Atheists by default are neglectful parents.


    you're not the same Jimitime that frequents the music forums???

    say it ain't so!! :(


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    #131
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    This place would be better if people refrained from being so personal in their rebukes.
    bluefinger wrote: »
    Here's a video on that church. Looks like the 02 for god botherers. :)
    I don't know which is scarier - the cash that's behind that construction - or the bloodcurdling Christian Rock that plays in the background.


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    #132
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Not teaching a child right from wrong is neglectful. Not teaching a child about the dangers of the road, and of fire, or accepting lifts from strangers etc is also neglectful. Not teaching a child about God is also neglectful. Atheists by default are neglectful parents.

    Em an atheist, usually teaches their child about God, just not your ONE (or tri?) god!

    We're the most considerate and explain the so-called risks of not belonging to ANY particular religion - you're taking a pretty BIG RISK risk if Islam is correct! So we inform them of every possible risk:P


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    #133
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Not teaching a child about Thor is also neglectful. Atheists by default are neglectful parents.

    Agreed.


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    #134
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    For those who don't get the point, I'm just turning the 'Child abuse' accusation on its head. I don't actually think you are neglectful parents. As a Christian however, it would be neglectful. I simply don't apply the standard to those who think its all cr@p. Now you obviously thought my neglect accusation was mental, now try being consistant and stop this child abuse nonsense. (Doesn't hold breath)

    Denialhighway: Yep, tis I. Sorry to disappoint.


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    #135
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    For those who don't get the point, I'm just turning the 'Child abuse' accusation on its head.

    I think most got the point, but reject the premise behind it that it is ok that a parent teach their child what ever the heck they like so long as they believe it is true.

    Our point is that this is clearly nonsense, demonstrated by the examples that Jakkass was skirting around.

    Again a parent cannot hide behind the argument that they are teaching their child something. What they are teaching their child is also a major factor.


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    #136
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Dades wrote: »
    This place would be better if people refrained from being so personal in their rebukes.

    I don't know which is scarier - the cash that's behind that construction - or the bloodcurdling Christian Rock that plays in the background.

    Christian rock makes me sick.


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    #137
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I think most got the point, but reject the premise behind it that it is ok that a parent teach their child what ever the heck they like so long as they believe it is true.

    Well that's clearly not the case, I mean most parents endeavour to teach their children morality. Which is something that has no truth and wholly subjective.


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    #138
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Well that's clearly not the case, I mean most parents endeavour to teach their children morality. Which is something that has no truth and wholly subjective.

    That in of itself is not a bad thing. Again teaching children things is not in of itself bad, but that doesn't allow a person to hide behind the excuse that they were just teaching their children something to allow them to teach them anything.

    Teaching children stuff is good NOT EQUAL Teaching children anything is good

    This is what this discussion with Jakkass and Jimi is skirting around, they keep bringing back up to the abstract that all Christians are doing is teaching their children stuff and teaching children stuff is a good thing, that everyone does. Stop picking on Christians for doing what everyone else does.

    They a dragging the discussion back to that abstract level to avoid discussion the issue of what exactly some Christian teach their children about concepts such as hell and sin and punishment.


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    #139
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Well that's clearly not the case, I mean most parents endeavour to teach their children morality. Which is something that has no truth and wholly subjective.

    I will smack mama all I like, so long as she misbehaves! :mad:

    It is Allah's will... :o


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    #140
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I think most got the point,

    Well no-one that responded seemed to.
    but reject the premise behind it that it is ok that a parent teach their child what ever the heck they like so long as they believe it is true.

    Well as you know, I am a christian, so rather than 'whatever the hell they want', I'm specifically dealing with the accusation that teaching a child christianity is abusive.
    Our point is that this is clearly nonsense,


    Its nonsense to call teaching a child christianity 'Child abuse'. Its mere fear mongering from the more ignorant of our society. Take a term that equates to one of the most heinous crimes, and apply it to a group of people you hate/disagree with/whatever. Give some Pseudo-logical reason why the term applies, and watch as those with a desire to believe it, regurgitate it.
    Again a parent cannot hide behind the argument that they are teaching their child something. What they are teaching their child is also a major factor.

    I agree.


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    #141
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Denalihighway wrote: »
    you're not the same Jimitime that frequents the music forums???

    say it ain't so!! :(

    Why would JimiTime's being a Christian cause you to mark him as being any lesser in your eyes than he was before? People differ all the time right?
    Malty_T wrote: »
    Em an atheist, usually teaches their child about God, just not your ONE (or tri?) god!

    We're the most considerate and explain the so-called risks of not belonging to ANY particular religion - you're taking a pretty BIG RISK risk if Islam is correct! So we inform them of every possible risk

    Make of this what you will, and discuss it in the Islam forum afterwards to seek their opinion:
    Qur'an 2:62 wrote:
    Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book


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    #142
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    I fail to see how teaching a child about an actual place where people really are sent to burn and be tortured forever, simply because they don't believe in Jesus, can be interpreted as anything but the abuse of a child's mind.


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    #143
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Wicknight wrote: »
    They a dragging the discussion back to that abstract level to avoid discussion the issue of what exactly some Christian teach their children about concepts such as hell and sin and punishment.


    Nothing abstract about what I'm saying. You have your worldview, you believe mine to be Phooey. You then apply your worldview to my parenting. Then call it child abuse.


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    #144
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    BTW, it isn't because they "simply don't believe in Jesus". It is due to the guilt of their sin that they are to be punished. Mankind had sinned so much that it was no longer possible to atone for their sin through the means that God had ordained in the Law. Therefore it was deemed that the Messiah would take away the sins and iniquity of the world by giving up His own life. Our sins would die has He died, and we would be given new life at His resurrection. If you have not accepted this, your sin remains, and you will be punished for it. It's an act of mercy, and it is entirely your own responsibility if you do not accept it.


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    #145
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Behold! The awesome and terrifying power of the religious meme:
    Jakkass wrote: »
    BTW, it isn't because they "simply don't believe in Jesus". It is due to the guilt of their sin that they are to be punished. Mankind had sinned so much that it was no longer possible to atone for their sin through the means that God had ordained in the Law. Therefore it was deemed that the Messiah would take away the sins and iniquity of the world by giving up His own life. Our sins would die has He died, and we would be given new life at His resurrection. If you have not accepted this, your sin remains, and you will be punished for it. It's an act of mercy, and it is entirely your own responsibility if you do not accept it.

    Notice that the subject is quite capable of intelligent dialogue and yet can utter such staggering insanity as though it were entirely reasonable.

    This is not a work of fiction.
    This is not a work of satire.
    This is not a joke.

    This is what a real human being actually believes.


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    #146
    Denalihighway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭Denalihighway


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Why would JimiTime's being a Christian cause you to mark him as being any lesser in your eyes than he was before? People differ all the time right?



    Make of this what you will, and discuss it in the Islam forum afterwards to seek their opinion:

    'lesser' is a very subjective term and I don't remember using it. You seem to have you assumed it Jakkass.

    I would treat that side of him the same as any other person whom I strongly believe have views that are mistaken/misguided/deluded. I'm sure I could put it to one side however, as you say, people differ all the time. But I'd be lying if I said it wasn't dissapointing to say to the least.

    But let's not go off on yet another tangent please.

    I have it on good authority that the pastor for this place used to run a very successful hire shop in Rathfarnham. I can see it now..

    Mr Pastor: "Hello Mr. Financial Advisor, I've just retired from my business and I've sh*tloads of cash and I want to invest it"

    Mr FA: "Well...property f*cked, and so is the stock market...put it in relgion man! It's the new oil!"


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    #147
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Flamed Diving wrote: »
    I fail to see how teaching a child about an actual place where people really are sent to burn and be tortured forever, simply because they don't believe in Jesus, can be interpreted as anything but the abuse of a child's mind.
    If you believe it's an actual place then it's simply the truth - from that parents pov.

    Just like an atheist could simply tell a child mummy is dead in ground and you'll never see her again. This example, like the concept of Hell, can, and usually is sugar coated.

    I don't really agree with the term child abuse, tbh. I was taught about Hell in a RC school and it never bothered me. There are real abuses and manufactured ones. No doubt there are crazy Christian sects that cross the line in what and how they teach the kids - but until I'm privy to what the Victory crowd are up to, I'll wager it's nearly all "love & Jesus" style stuff to draw in crowds.


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    #148
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Dades wrote: »
    If you believe it's an actual place then it's simply the truth - from that parents pov.

    Just like an atheist could simply tell a child mummy is dead in ground and you'll never see her again. This example, like the concept of Hell, can, and usually is sugar coated.

    I don't really agree with the term child abuse, tbh. I was taught about Hell in a RC school and it never bothered me. There are real abuses and manufactured ones. No doubt there are crazy Christian sects that cross the line in what and how they teach the kids - but until I'm privy to what the Victory crowd are up to, I'll wager it's nearly all "love & Jesus" style stuff to draw in crowds.

    I went to an RC school, and I was genuinely frightened of the notion of hell, so much so that when I was in church I used to do my best not to think bad things. Yep, I was afraid of committing a thoughtcrime. Luckily, once I reached the age of reason, I came to the conclusion that it was all nonsense. However, that was a needless amount of fear to inflict on a child, and it taught me absolutely nothing.


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    #149
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Dades wrote: »
    If you believe it's an actual place then it's simply the truth - from that parents pov.

    Well this is part of the point, and as you went on to say, there can be lines crossed. 'Carries mother' type things. I don't believe in Hell as a place of fiery torment anyway, so it doesn't apply to me anyhoo. There are many that don't believe in such a hell, and not in an 'A la carte Christian' way. Some, like myself, believe it points towards 'The second death of which there is no resurrection', others believe its an existance void of God.

    I don't really agree with the term child abuse, tbh. I was taught about Hell in a RC school and it never bothered me.

    Nor me, nor 'anyone' I've known. In fact, it was hardly ever mentioned tbh.
    There are real abuses and manufactured ones. No doubt there are crazy Christian sects that cross the line in what and how they teach the kids

    I agree, and thanks for keeping my 'You stupid atheists' barometer in check with your reasoning:) Its good to see that there will be at least some who 'might' pass us some bread and water when we're back down in the catecombes:pac::)


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    #150
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Well as you know, I am a christian, so rather than 'whatever the hell they want', I'm specifically dealing with the accusation that teaching a child christianity is abusive.
    You don't appear to be, as suggest by the juxtaposition with atheism.

    If you are specifically dealing with the accusation that teaching a child about hell and sin can be damaging what point do you think is demonstrated by showing that you don't mind an atheist not teaching a child about god?
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Its nonsense to call teaching a child christianity 'Child abuse'.
    I'm not sure if you are abstracting again, but we were specifically discussing concepts such as hell, sin and God's punishment.

    Can you explain to me how teaching a child that they are, by virtue of simply existing and being a normal human, so wicked that God had decided they deserve a place in hell, a place most Christians seem to equate (and therefore teach) with eternal pain and suffering, could not have a negative effect on their sense of self worth and on how they view their development?

    As already detailed child psychologists stress that parents put emphasis on an act being bold or naughty, rather than on the child himself being bold or naughty as emphasising that the child is bold can have a negative effect on how they view themselves.

    In that context I really can't see how teaching a child about sin and hell could have anything other than a damaging effect on their development of essential skills such as confidence judgement and notions of self worth.

    I find it some what interesting that we are 10 pages in and no one has actually addressed these concerns, they simply skirt around them and call such accusations nonsense without actually dealing with them.

    I've explained why I think it could be, so if teaching children about these concepts isn't damaging to their development of a sense of self worth and confidence can you explain why it isn't?


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    #151
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I agree, and thanks for keeping my 'You stupid atheists' barometer in check with your reasoning:) Its good to see that there will be at least some who 'might' pass us some bread and water when we're back down in the catecombes:pac::)

    All that we ask from you and your ilk is to stop trying to push your magic rulebook into public life.

    Do that, and it's milk and honey all around.


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