New huge 'Victory Christian Fellowship' centre being completed in Firhouse, Dublin

Denalihighway

Hi,
I don't frequent this particular forum but thought this was interesting. Coming home some months ago in Firhouse, Dublin, I noticed a huge construction project that was seemingly making great progress, while most others are stalling in these times.

On further inspection it turned out to be the new Centre for the Victory Christian Fellowship, which I had never heard of. Their website is here www.victory.ie - and there's a interesting/funny/little bit creepy youtube video embedded regarding the construction and completion - see 2min 57sec "spiritually it won't be moved..." etc. The song is very funny too actually, it worth watching for that alone.

This is a serious building with restaurant, performance areas, prayer rooms, recording and mixing suites for performances and loads more according to the ever-so-slightly creepy video.

There's not a whole lot of info about the church on their website and there's a wiki article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victory_Christian_Fellowship that doesn't shed huge light either...just thought it was interesting and wondered what people thought.

And just in case anyone's feeling paranoid, no I'm not from the church :pac: I'm agnostic, but I'm from the area and to be quite honest when I saw the scale of the project and found out it was a religious venture, my instinct was to be ever so slightly unnerved.

CerebralCortex

Whoa Christian rock is really bad!!!

Rev Hellfire

Worrying indeed. With the spread of American evangelical Christian churches there may come a time when we look back fondly at old catholic Ireland

rainbow kirby

This monstrosity is 100m from my house... It's tempting to get my peashooter and try and pop some windows from my attic bedroom. :pac:

Denalihighway

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Worrying indeed. With the spread of American evangelical Christian churches there may come a time when we look back fondly at old catholic Ireland

exactly what I'm thinking. And the timing couldn't be better could it? There's a serious amount of downtrodden, demoralised people around as a result of the big R. A lot will be looking for alternatives and solace.

What's the bets we start seeing American style promotional activity before too long, with free food offering after service on Sundays etc...that should attract the cream of Ballycragh

ps no offense to anyone from Ballycragh...

CerebralCortex

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Worrying indeed. With the spread of American evangelical Christian churches there may come a time when we look back fondly at old catholic Ireland

I heard someone say that if you want to destroy religion make your country a theocracy or something to that effect and that the reason America is so religious is because of the free market and competition provided constitutionally by freedom of religion. I'm deeply worried and a little bit annoyed.

Denalihighway

well opening a right can o worms there...but yes the various freedoms that democracy affords all have their cost - particularly religious freedom. The States have taken it to another level as always.

Frustrating to say the least, especially when the majority of people in society or given somewhat to faith in one form or another, so you can expect a well oiled machine (which VCF may or not be) to snare a few people here and there and then who knows what happens...sure even Scientology is catching people out...

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I heard someone say that if you want to destroy religion make your country a theocracy or something to that effect and that the reason America is so religious is because of the free market and competition provided constitutionally by freedom of religion. I'm deeply worried and a little bit annoyed.

Zillah

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Worrying indeed. With the spread of American evangelical Christian churches there may come a time when we look back fondly at old catholic Ireland

Filipino!

What possesses a Filipino Church to start up in Dublin I don't know. Presumably the Holy Spirit I suppose.

Hey check out their kid section!

"Kids are empowered to influence their relatives, friends, and classmates and share their faith in Jesus Christ." Fucking Evangelicals leave the children alone, do your own proselytizing, religious recruiting children are creepy as anything.

You think if I join I can get a pair of wicked cool sunglasses like these children?

Denalihighway

Zillah wrote: »

Filipino!

What possesses a Filipino Church to start up in Dublin I don't know. Presumably the Holy Spirit I suppose.

Hey check out their kid section!

"Kids are empowered to influence their relatives, friends, and classmates and share their faith in Jesus Christ." Fucking Evangelicals leave the children alone, do your own proselytizing, religious recruiting children are creepy as anything.

You think if I join I can get a pair of wicked cool sunglasses like these children?

Japers...creepy is right. And check out this from their 'ClubJ' section!

"ABOUT CLUB J

Club J is a youth club for kids between 7 to 12 years old. It is a club where there are games - play station, air hockey, table tennis, pools, dance mats, live worship and Bible teachings. They get free drinks and sweets and we play exciting interactive group games were everybody gets involved. A new addition are what are called CLUB J POINTS were the guys and girls can earn points, which at the end of the month they can buy great toys and games from the CLUB J TOY STORE. Amongst all the fun we have PRAISE and WORSHIP and great teachings relevant for this age group followed by questions and answers. There have been 57 salvations to date and there will be a lot more."

build it and they will come eh? free drinks and sweets too! - sure the parents will be only delighted to pack them off to those lovely people at Christian Victory and the kids will be in their element.

Pea-shooters at the ready...

Zillah

Y'know, that would be pretty cool if it weren't all just a front for indoctrinating children.

Denalihighway

if we get to the community quick enough we could organise a conspiracy. Get a load of agnostic/atheist families to brief their children on the evils of religion and give them some nicely spun propaganda about the Victory bunch ....and the send the children along every Sat and Sunday to play their games and guzzle their sweets and drinks

play them at their own game

kiffer

hmmm why is this link at the bottom of the kidz church page?

http://www.kadr2.ru/Gerkules_v_Nju_Jorke-film-12552.html

victory.ie wrote:

At Kidz Church has Live Worship Band, we teach the children in really fun ways using puppets and interesting teachings, games and prizes. We even have our very own faithful friend, Rovercomer - the overcoming dog.

SonShinePuppets wrote:

Rovercomer Skits
Rovercomer talks in a dog dialect that only the teacher can understand. His wild gestures and colorful costume make him a real attention-grabber. With the help of a cleverly-written script, the teacher interprets Rovercomer's story for the class. These skits can be easily altered to suit your own costume character or you can purchase our full-body Rovercomer costume at a special price with the curriculum

I like it! only the teacher can interpret what the dog says...
"Woof Ruff Woof!"
"What's that Mr Hat Rovercomer? God wants the the children to do what? Well if you say so it must be true."

Denalihighway

check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa9Vew1UFmk

"to take Ireland for god" eh?

not on my watch ye bunch o loonies...

How are these funded I wonder, and what kind of cars are these 'pastors' driving?

kiffer

They're a few years late... Auld St. Patrick beat them to it by pretty large margin...

Flamed Diving

Sick.

Galvasean

Denalihighway wrote: »

check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa9Vew1UFmk

"to take Ireland for god" eh?

not on my watch ye bunch o loonies...

So they wanna take Ireland for God huh? Well then, I say we counter assault and take their church for Lord Athiea!

Zombrex

I for one welcome our new Victory Christian overlords, and remind them that I may be useful for rounding up slaves to work in their sugar mines

Denalihighway

Wicknight wrote: »

I for one welcome our new Victory Christian overlords, and remind them that I may be useful for rounding up slaves to work in their sugar mines

you're right. I've been looking at this all wrong. The Sugar Mines are a wonderful opportunity for the area in a dire time of need. I'm so 'glass-half-empty' sometimes. If there are any management positions please let me know Wicknight.

All hail the VCF!

Dave!

hmmmm, whereabouts is this in Firhouse? I live just down the Old Bawn road, never noticed this development in passing

Denalihighway wrote: »

How are these funded I wonder, and what kind of cars are these 'pastors' driving?

I suspect that they're being funded by some American group or other. That's the home of evangelical nutjobs, and they've alot of money to piss away on this kind of thing (see: Creation museum)

Denalihighway

Dave! wrote: »

hmmmm, whereabouts is this in Firhouse? I live just down the Old Bawn road, never noticed this development in passing



I suspect that they're being funded by some American group or other. That's the home of evangelical nutjobs, and they've alot of money to piss away on this kind of thing (see: Creation museum)

I would assume so.

The site is the big one nearly opposite the Speaker Connolly, it was boarded up until not long ago so you wouldn't have noticed it.

Be nice to see it boarded up again in 12 months :pac:

rainbow kirby

The boards outside it were vandalised one night, with someone writing in 6ft letters "KEEP GOD OUT OF FIRHOUSE!". One of the local papers blamed it on "young people thinking that a mosque was being built".

Dades

rainbow kirby wrote: »

The boards outside it were vandalised one night, with someone writing in 6ft letters "KEEP GOD OUT OF FIRHOUSE!".

I would have written "GODS" but I was short on paint.

kiffer

I like PDN's post on the other forum... :-)
He's got the passive aggressive wind up in early this time. It was such a peaceful week with out him.

Zillah

Wicknight wrote: »

I for one welcome our new Victory Christian overlords, and remind them that I may be useful for rounding up slaves to work in their sugar mines

You sir shall fight to the death like any other free thinking Irishman or I shall shoot you myself.

lostexpectation

Zillah wrote: »

Filipino!

American!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maranatha_Campus_Ministries

seamus

I wouldn't worry too much about it. That whole part of D16/D24 is awash with religious nutjobs - Quakers, JW, Opus Dei, Mormons, Born Agains, you name 'em, we've got 'em.

Denalihighway

seamus wrote: »

I wouldn't worry too much about it. That whole part of D16/D24 is awash with religious nutjobs - Quakers, JW, Opus Dei, Mormons, Born Agains, you name 'em, we've got 'em.

If that statement is designed to make me not worry - I'd hate to see you trying to freak me out :eek::pac:

philologos

I have yet to understand what possible harm is being caused by a group of people building a bigger place of worship for them and all who want to hear about the Gospel. Arguably a lot of it is excessive, but what harm is it causing? Absolutely none I would suspect.

That's before we start dealing with absurd notions about teaching children about faith being paramount to child abuse.

seamus

Jakkass wrote: »

I have yet to understand what possible harm is being caused by a group of people building a bigger place of worship for them and all who want to hear about the Gospel. Arguably a lot of it is excessive, but what harm is it causing? Absolutely none I would suspect.

I think the concern is more about their evangelical nature and their "moving in". If they alreaday existed and were simply upsizing, I doubt there'd be a big deal.

Evangelical groups tend to be interfering, disruptive, intolerant and altogether a complete pain in the ass for the community at large. Look at the JW. The last thing I want is spam coming in my letterbox from yet another group of nutjobs, or worse still having them try to stop me in the street.

That said, there's nothing to indicate that this particular group will do anything of the sort, and given the massive ethnic diversity in D24, I imagine they wouldn't build the church there if there wasn't some demand.

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

I have yet to understand what possible harm is being caused by a group of people building a bigger place of worship for them and all who want to hear about the Gospel. Arguably a lot of it is excessive, but what harm is it causing? Absolutely none I would suspect.

That's before we start dealing with absurd notions about teaching children about faith being paramount to child abuse.

Sounds like someone is looking for an argument :rolleyes:

philologos

seamus wrote: »

I think the concern is more about their evangelical nature and their "moving in". If they alreaday existed and were simply upsizing, I doubt there'd be a big deal.

1. Evangelical nature. What is so wrong with evangelicalism? Most of the critics of evangelical Christianity tend to be those who have never had any experience with it.

2. "Moving in"? The evidence seems to be that this church has been in Ireland for a long time.

seamus wrote: »

Evangelical groups tend to be interfering, disruptive, intolerant and altogether a complete pain in the ass for the community at large. Look at the JW. The last thing I want is spam coming in my letterbox from yet another group of nutjobs, or worse still having them try to stop me in the street.

Basis for this? As for intolerant how do you mean?

I could say, groups of atheists and agnostics tend to be interfering, disruptive, intolerant, and altogether a complete pain the the ass for the community at large. However, it would be evident that this is mere fearmongering. Is it really helpful in a cohesive society to engage in this kind of suspicion. If you want to find out what they are about, go and see instead of making assumptions from the outside.

seamus wrote: »

That said, there's nothing to indicate that this particular group will do anything of the sort, and given the massive ethnic diversity in D24, I imagine they wouldn't build the church there if there wasn't some demand.

Well, that and they wouldn't have the funding to if they didn't have the demand.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Sounds like someone is looking for an argument :rolleyes:

Would you prefer it if everyone just agreed with you?

eoin5

Jakkass wrote: »

I have yet to understand what possible harm is being caused by a group of people building a bigger place of worship for them and all who want to hear about the Gospel. Arguably a lot of it is excessive, but what harm is it causing? Absolutely none I would suspect.

That's before we start dealing with absurd notions about teaching children about faith being paramount to child abuse.

About faith? No...

seamus

Jakkass wrote: »

2. "Moving in"? The evidence seems to be that this church has been in Ireland for a long time.

Ah, so you are looking for an argument. Why bother querying a part of my post when I address later on in the same post?

Basis for this? As for intolerant how do you mean?

My basis is personal experience. They seem to think that other people should hear their message and try to spread it. That counts as disruptive and intolerant in my book.

Would you prefer it if everyone just agreed with you?

I'd prefer it if everyone just fncked off and kept their religious opinions to themselves.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

I have yet to understand what possible harm is being caused by a group of people building a bigger place of worship for them and all who want to hear about the Gospel. Arguably a lot of it is excessive, but what harm is it causing? Absolutely none I would suspect.

How are you defining "harm"?

Most of the complaints seem to be that the building is huge and hideous. So think that would be a good place to start...

kiffer

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Sounds like someone is looking for an argument :rolleyes:

Yeah... He'd be fine with the Scientologists opening the same sort of facility in his area... So why should we say anything about this...

In fairness I thought we were more taking the piss than objecting...

But...

Building a church is fine... Telling your children to try to convert other children is more objectionable.

philologos

seamus wrote: »

My basis is personal experience. They seem to think that other people should hear their message and try to spread it. That counts as disruptive and intolerant in my book.

I'd prefer it if everyone just fncked off and kept their religious opinions to themselves.

How does having ones own beliefs and proselytising count as "intolerant" or "disruptive"? Tolerance is defined as permissiveness towards others beliefs and practices. All these people are doing is offering people to believe in Christianity, and it seems they've had moderate success.

Why should people not have the right to proselytise? I mean, you have the option to clearly say "Sorry, I'm not interested".

By your definition, Jesus Christ must have been the most intolerant man in history.

Matthew 28:19-20 wrote:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’

There's a difference between you not liking proselytism, and intolerance surely?

Wicknight wrote: »

How are you defining "harm"?

Most of the complaints seem to be that the building is huge and hideous. So think that would be a good place to start...

If people opposed the construction of the building they should have put in a complaint to the relevant authorities when planning permission was being given out.

seamus

Jakkass wrote: »

How does having ones own beliefs and proselytising count as "intolerant" or "disruptive"? Tolerance is defined as permissiveness towards others beliefs and practices. All these people are doing is offering people to believe in Christianity, and it seems they've had moderate success.

Proselytising by it's very nature is intolerant - if you were tolerant, you wouldn't feel the need to proselytise.

Why should people not have the right to proselytise? I mean, you have the option to clearly say "Sorry, I'm not interested".

They have the right. That doesn't mean I can't criticise them for doing so.

By your definition, Jesus Christ must have been the most intolerant man in history.

That depends on what he was trying to do. If he truely believed that everyone else was wrong *and* needed to hear his message, then yes he was surpremely intolerant.

For the record, I'm highly intolerant of religious belief. I criticise the intolerance of various religious groups because they claim to be tolerant. I can respect Islam a little more because it doesn't make any false claims about its intolerance. However by definition, evangelists are intolerant because otherwise they wouldn't proselytise.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

If people opposed the construction of the building they should have put in a complaint to the relevant authorities when planning permission was being given out.

Ok .....

Are you saying that people should not complain about horrible buildings and the people who construct them unless they objected to the original planning permission?

I object to the Department of Health building on Poolbeg street, it is horrendous, but it was build before I was born

Rev Hellfire

Jakkass wrote: »

1. Evangelical nature. What is so wrong with evangelicalism? Most of the critics of evangelical Christianity tend to be those who have never had any experience with it.

Perhaps people (myself included) are unfairly associating evangelical churches with American conservative fundamentalist churches which also typically have an evangelical element with their rigid literal interpretation of the bible.

The same organisation which also seek to influence the political landscape and that of science so that they conform to their own interpretations of scripture.

Goduznt Xzst

Jakkass wrote: »

I have yet to understand what possible harm is being caused by a group of people building a bigger place of worship for them and all who want to hear about the Gospel.

Jakkass you are inherently biased in regards to this and thus your opinions on the matter are inutile.

It's akin to a stripper arguing that the proposed phallic shaped strip club being built in front of your house is harmless. Well of course she would as it's self serving for her for more strip joints to pop up so she can continue to nurse her low self esteem and daddy issues.

But the community, and society as a whole, has a right to see beyond this biased subjectivity.

I for one though have no problem with them expanding in Ireland. The more watering down and fragmenting of Christianity in this country the better. A true separation of Church and State will come when not one single sect can claim to speak for the majority.

Dades

Why would any atheist be content to have evangelists move into their neighborhood?

From an atheist point of view, these people are filling the minds of the young or the vulnerable with myths and untruths. If it wasn't done in the name of 'religion' nobody would be comfortable with it.

Flamed Diving

My issue is with yet another indoctrination centre being opened to warp young childrens minds. What's worse, this place is the Wal-Mart equivalent of this.

kiffer

Jakkass wrote: »

1. Evangelical nature. What is so wrong with evangelicalism? Most of the critics of evangelical Christianity tend to be those who have never had any experience with it.

plenty of experience with exposure to evangelical types and the aftermath of other peoples experiences... Much like I don't have much experience in getting hit by a bus but ... Ah crap I hate that analogue

2. "Moving in"? The evidence seems to be that this church has been in Ireland for a long time.

Yeah. Don't know where that whole Philpino thing came from...
Still "Taking Ireland for God" makes it sound like an invasion...

Basis for this? As for intolerant how do you mean?

I could say, groups of atheists and agnostics tend to be interfering, disruptive, intolerant, and altogether a complete pain the the ass for the community at large. However, it would be evident that this is mere fearmongering. Is it really helpful in a cohesive society to engage in this kind of suspicion. If you want to find out what they are about, go and see instead of making assumptions from the outside.

We don't need to go and see to get the general gist (Though it would probably be a good idea anyway to get a better picture) because they've kindly given us a web page full of information...

Well, that and they wouldn't have the funding to if they didn't have the demand.

Funding comes from people that are already members, not the people that they are trying to recruit... They are spreading by building churches. We don't know how many members are locals... Do you know? The goal is not (just) to build a nice place for their congregation to worship but to "take Ireland for God"...

Would you prefer it if everyone just agreed with you?

wouldn't you?

philologos

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Jakkass you are inherently biased in regards to this and thus your opinions on the matter are inutile.

Really? Bear in mind, that I do not attend a Pentecostal church on a regular basis.

I would argue that the bias is largely from those who are criticising based on idle suspicions. It is better to get to know what these people are about before making false assumptions.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

It's akin to a stripper arguing that the proposed phallic shaped strip club being built in front of your house is harmless. Well of course she would as it's self serving for her for more strip joints to pop up so she can continue to nurse her low self esteem and daddy issues.

Do you generally object to the construction of new churches?

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

But the community, and society as a whole, has a right to see beyond this biased subjectivity.

You mean dabble in idle suspicions and prejudices? Of course they do, but it is dangerous to do so if one wants a cohesive society.

I mean the mere fact that people are referring to freedom of religion and expression as being a hindrance to society on this thread is infinitely more unnerving than what could be perceived as an excessively large church structure. I would love to hear what the quotation was for all of this.

Denalihighway wrote: »

well opening a right can o worms there...but yes the various freedoms that democracy affords all have their cost - particularly religious freedom. The States have taken it to another level as always.

Wicknight wrote: »

Are you saying that people should not complain about horrible buildings and the people who construct them unless they objected to the original planning permission?

Such complaints have absolutely no legal value. If one is genuinely interested in stopping construction of such buildings one should be pragmatic and complain to the council.

Dades wrote: »

Why would any atheist be content to have evangelists move into their neighborhood?

From an atheist point of view, these people are filling the minds of the young or the vulnerable with myths and untruths. If it wasn't done in the name of 'religion' nobody would be comfortable with it.

I think its curious that its perceived as being such a big problem. If you believe that you have the correct point of view on this argument, how could people with another opinion possibly be any harm to you?

As for myths and untruths, I don't believe it is your responsibility to tell any other parent how to raise their child in respect to religion.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

My issue is with yet another indoctrination centre being opened to warp young childrens minds. What's worse, this place is the Wal-Mart equivalent of this.

That is only if you believe that educating your child about Christianity is child abuse. Most reasonable people do not think this. One would also have to believe that education as a child secures your faith for life, which again I would find disagreeable.

kiffer wrote: »

plenty of experience with exposure to evangelical types and the aftermath of other peoples experiences... Much like I don't have much experience in getting hit by a bus but ... Ah crap I hate that analogue

Have you attended evangelical services ever? Again, I feel you are tarring all with one brush here. Perhaps, I'm regarding my experience as slightly different as a number of my best friends are Evangelical Christians.

kiffer wrote: »

We don't need to go and see to get the general gist (Though it would probably be a good idea anyway to get a better picture) because they've kindly given us a web page full of information...

To truly assess what they are about one would need to.

kiffer wrote: »

Funding comes from people that are already members, not the people that they are trying to recruit... They are spreading by building churches. We don't know how many members are locals... Do you know? The goal is not (just) to build a nice place for their congregation to worship but to "take Ireland for God"...

I'm aware of that, but the congregation obviously felt that they needed a bigger premises to call their spiritual home. If they have the finances to cover it, and if the planning permission is given after the application being deemed successful there are absolutely no legitimate grounds for protest. I think it is slightly excessive, but if that is how they have determined to spend their money that is up to them entirely.

kiffer wrote: »

wouldn't you?

I don't believe that all are going to share the same opinion as me. I'm half and half on this question though. I genuinely want people to know about Christianity and the potential impact that it has on their lives. I also like discussing with people of differing views to my own.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass:

That is only if you believe that educating your child about Christianity is child abuse. Most reasonable people do not think this. One would also have to believe that education as a child secures your faith for life, which again I would find disagreeable.

Telling a child that people burn for eternity for being bold is abusive. Of course, you will say that you merely need to leave the nasty bits out. But that's not teaching a child about Christianity now, is it?

philologos

I have no issue with teaching about hell in respect to God's justice, that there will be consequences for how we live in the here and now, and that there is hope through Jesus Christ. I have yet to see how it is abusive. Is it abusive to teach someone that they will most likely go to jail if they steal?

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

I have no issue with teaching about hell in respect to God's justice, that there will be consequences for how we live in the here and now, and that there is hope through Jesus Christ. I have yet to see how it is abusive. Is it abusive to teach someone that they will most likely go to jail if they steal?

What utter, utter nonsense you believe. The lengths you will go to, in order to ram that square peg in.

seamus

Jakkass wrote: »

I have no issue with teaching about hell in respect to God's justice, that there will be consequences for how we live in the here and now, and that there is hope through Jesus Christ. I have yet to see how it is abusive. Is it abusive to teach someone that they will most likely go to jail if they steal?

By that logic, you have no problem with me teaching people that they should dive off a cliff because the Flying Spaghetti Monster saves cliff divers and catches them in his noodley tentacles before they hit the ground?

Of course, the rest of us being mere mortals do not see his saving the person, all we see is someone going splat.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote: »

Such complaints have absolutely no legal value. If one is genuinely interested in stopping construction of such buildings one should be pragmatic and complain to the council.

Legal value? This is Boards.ie ... I complain about cheese rolls here, I don't want them illegal

philologos

seamus wrote: »

By that logic, you have no problem with me teaching people that they should dive off a cliff because the Flying Spaghetti Monster saves cliff divers and catches them in his noodley tentacles before they hit the ground?

If I believed it was false like you clearly do, then that would have to be the logic I applied. If I believe it is true, like I clearly do, then I believe it is only correct that people are told that people will be punished for their iniquities there if they do not repent and accept Christ's salvation.

Diving off a cliff is likely to cause harm, believing that one should aim to do what is right and follow God, isn't particularly harmful at all.

dvpower

@Jakkass, would you consider it abusive to tell a young child that they are likely destined to wind up in a fire and brimstone hell?