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Why is public sector pay such a big issue now?

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Comments

  • #212
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,062 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    no mortgage, no loans, savings, job, college, price of everythig dropping by the second

    happy days


  • #213
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭dresden8


    irish_bob wrote: »
    whether garrage mechanics in a toyota dealership in drogheda earn more or less than a garrage mechanic in a toyota dealership in brighton or berlin

    How bizarre.

    Especially in light of this post earlier in the thread.
    yes to all three , we are competing against theese countries for business and foreign investment , we need to be at thier level in terms of costs and wages

    Post #191.


  • #214
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    whether garrage mechanics in a toyota dealership in drogheda earn more or less than a garrage mechanic in a toyota dealership in brighton or berlin

    Are you Bertie Aherne?


  • #215
    Sarn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,141 ✭✭✭Sarn


    irish_bob wrote: »
    whether garrage mechanics in a toyota dealership in drogheda earn more or less than a garrage mechanic in a toyota dealership in brighton or berlin

    Well, if garage mechanics are payed 30% more than their Berlin equivalent, PS workers are payed 30% more and other private sector workers have a similar higher margin, then it's a case that ALL Irish workers are overpaid and using that particular argument specifically against the PS is incorrect.

    [I just plucked the 30% figure out of the air, I don't know how much extra/less PS or any other Irish worker is paid compared to other countries]


  • #216
    Mal-Adjusted
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Are you Bertie Aherne?

    don't get the bertie reference...could you explain it?


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  • #217
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    a toyota garrage in drogheda is not DELL or INTEL , its not a multinational where we need to be focused on being more competitive than the uk , netherlands etc in attracting foregin investment , my point was that workers in a garrage are not paid out of the public purse , the uk doesnt pay thier teachers , nurses or police anywhere near the same as us yet they have as strong if not stronger an economy now , thier are many anomolys here when it comes to the level of public sector pay , one being that public servants here are higher paid than private sector workers , not the case in most countries


  • #218
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    irish_bob wrote: »
    a toyota garrage in drogheda is not DELL or INTEL , its not a multinational where we need to be focused on being more competitive than the uk , netherlands etc in attracting foregin investment , my point was that workers in a garrage are not paid out of the public purse , the uk doesnt pay thier teachers , nurses or police anywhere near the same as us yet they have as strong if not stronger an economy now , thier are many anomolys here when it comes to the level of public sector pay , one being that public servants here are higher paid than private sector workers , not the case in most countries

    a quick question....if you think irish Public Service should be benchmarked against what UK Public service is paid......how is the UK public service wage decided?


  • #219
    franbrehon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭franbrehon


    the fact of the matter is ,that all the wages of the public sector ,come from the taxes paid by private sector workers, so the public sector has no right to enter arguments ,such as they should equal the private sector wages, the public sector needs to be cut by 80% and thats that, its over inflated, by a long shot per head of population, and we are only realising it now when its too late.
    i also think itsvery cheeky of the public sector workers to strike, or make demands, they are in no position to demand anyone, as there job ,let it be a garda,a nurse, doctor, is a favor to the state, so they are under a compliment to have a job in the first place.

    therefore if the pubic sector workers arent happy , they should emegrate , to somewhere , where someone actually gives a dam about there freeloathing tactics


  • #220
    Mal-Adjusted
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,622 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    franbrehon wrote: »
    the fact of the matter is ,that all the wages of the public sector ,come from the taxes paid by private sector workers, so the public sector has no right to enter arguments ,such as they should equal the private sector wages, the public sector needs to be cut by 80% and thats that, its over inflated, by a long shot per head of population, and we are only realising it now when its too late.
    i also think itsvery cheeky of the public sector workers to strike, or make demands, they are in no position to demand anyone, as there job ,let it be a garda,a nurse, doctor, is a favor to the state, so they are under a compliment to have a job in the first place.

    therefore if the pubic sector workers arent happy , they should emegrate , to somewhere , where someone actually gives a dam about there freeloathing tactics

    intiresting...whdid you get your 80% figue, because that seems very high.


  • #221
    murf313
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭murf313


    franbrehon wrote: »
    the fact of the matter is ,that all the wages of the public sector ,come from the taxes paid by private sector workers, so the public sector has no right to enter arguments ,such as they should equal the private sector wages, the public sector needs to be cut by 80% and thats that, its over inflated, by a long shot per head of population, and we are only realising it now when its too late.
    i also think itsvery cheeky of the public sector workers to strike, or make demands, they are in no position to demand anyone, as there job ,let it be a garda,a nurse, doctor, is a favor to the state, so they are under a compliment to have a job in the first place.

    therefore if the pubic sector workers arent happy , they should emegrate , to somewhere , where someone actually gives a dam about there freeloathing tactics


    What????? since when did the public sector not pay taxes?

    How do you compare a garda's job to someone in the private sector? How do you compare a firefighters job to someone in the private sector? you cant..... so dont try to!

    Cut the public sector by 80%??? Who will police the streets, who will you call when you need an ambulance, who will hand you out all you lovely dole money???

    cop on......


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  • #222
    Riskymove
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,903 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    franbrehon wrote: »
    as there job ,let it be a garda,a nurse, doctor, is a favor to the state, so they are under a compliment to have a job in the first place.

    jesus, you are right...at long last I see the light...all Public Sector workers should actually work for free as a favour to the state...they should be grateful that the irish people, in their infinite wisdom allow them to be guards or nurses or whatever...what use have they for an income, a home, food, etc....


  • #223
    Tipp Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,025 ✭✭✭Tipp Man


    murf313 wrote: »
    What????? since when did the public sector not pay taxes?

    How do you compare a garda's job to someone in the private sector? How do you compare a firefighters job to someone in the private sector? you cant..... so dont try to!

    Cut the public sector by 80%??? Who will police the streets, who will you call when you need an ambulance, who will hand you out all you lovely dole money???

    cop on......
    i'm not agreeing with the tone or sentiment of the original poster that you quoted but a couple of things i would say

    The public sector doesn't generate funds from which to pay taxes, for example a public sector worker earning 50k paying 10k tax is costing the government 40k. Now the government could simple say ps worker you are now earning 40k but paying no tax. The effect on the government's expenditure is zero, they still only need to pay 40k. So you could (theorectically) do away with public servants paying tax:) however the 40k has to come from somewhere and it always comes from the private sector from PAYE, Corp Tax etc (i'm ignoring VAT receipts). If a private sector worker also on 50k paying 10k tax was told he no longer had to pay tax then the government is down 10k in income. So the private sector worker is contributing to the Governement tax take but the public sector is not (net)

    The idea should NOT be to compare fireman, Gardai, teachers etc to private sector workers, they should be compared to these services in other countries and paid similarly as well

    80% is obviously rubbish but cuts, and quite drastic cuts actually, will certainly have to be made, the current situation is completly unsustainable


  • #224
    murf313
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭murf313


    lenihan brian wrote: »
    i strongly, and fleuntly, beleive what franbrehon has said is true, and must be taken into consideration.
    going forward towards a more stable future, i would urge people to join the private sector workforce, where as franbrehon stated, the money comes from to fund our public spend right across the board, i must also stress that, tecnically speaking a public sector employee , even myself ,does not contribute to the public purse in any form.
    this is easily explained as public monies come from the private sector taxes in the first place, and pays the wages of all public workers and bodies, as it is impossible for a public body to actually pay taxes ,in any form when it is funded by taxes itself, so you see the money paid by the private sector worker does actually fund everything publicily spent in this country.
    and i myself am under a compliment to the state to have the job i do as is every other public sector employee

    your quite obviously not a public sector worker if you believe you work as a compliment to the state. Sure why dont you offer to work for free then?
    Myself and alot of other public servants had to go through a fairly difficult selection process to get to where we are today.

    also, I do believe there needs to be cuts in public sector, but not at the ordinary working mans expense. There are is an awful lot of wastage and mismanagment in the public sector, why cant this be fixed before paycuts?
    Dont forget we have already taken a cut with the "pension levy" which is just another word for paycut as it also deducted from non pensionable pay ie overtime.
    Some of us have lost all overtime etc and are felling the strain as well as everyone else. Dont forget we have mortgages etc that have to be paid aswell. Please dont believe all the crap that is being peddled about our pay being over inflated. If I work out my weekly wage by the hours i do, im actually on less than the minimum wage!


  • #225
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    i'm not agreeing with the tone or sentiment of the original poster that you quoted but a couple of things i would say

    The public sector doesn't generate funds from which to pay taxes, for example a public sector worker earning 50k paying 10k tax is costing the government 40k. Now the government could simple say ps worker you are now earning 40k but paying no tax. The effect on the government's expenditure is zero, they still only need to pay 40k. So you could (theorectically) do away with public servants paying tax:) however the 40k has to come from somewhere and it always comes from the private sector from PAYE, Corp Tax etc (i'm ignoring VAT receipts). If a private sector worker also on 50k paying 10k tax was told he no longer had to pay tax then the government is down 10k in income. So the private sector worker is contributing to the Governement tax take but the public sector is not (net)

    The idea should NOT be to compare fireman, Gardai, teachers etc to private sector workers, they should be compared to these services in other countries and paid similarly as well

    80% is obviously rubbish but cuts, and quite drastic cuts actually, will certainly have to be made, the current situation is completly unsustainable



    fantastic post tipp man


  • #226
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    i'm not agreeing with the tone or sentiment of the original poster that you quoted but a couple of things i would say

    The public sector doesn't generate funds from which to pay taxes, for example a public sector worker earning 50k paying 10k tax is costing the government 40k. Now the government could simple say ps worker you are now earning 40k but paying no tax. The effect on the government's expenditure is zero, they still only need to pay 40k. So you could (theorectically) do away with public servants paying tax:) however the 40k has to come from somewhere and it always comes from the private sector from PAYE, Corp Tax etc (i'm ignoring VAT receipts). If a private sector worker also on 50k paying 10k tax was told he no longer had to pay tax then the government is down 10k in income. So the private sector worker is contributing to the Governement tax take but the public sector is not (net)

    Does that mean that people working in the private sector on government contracts also pay no tax?


  • #227
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭ART6


    Tipp Man wrote: »

    The idea should NOT be to compare fireman, Gardai, teachers etc to private sector workers, they should be compared to these services in other countries and paid similarly as well

    80% is obviously rubbish but cuts, and quite drastic cuts actually, will certainly have to be made, the current situation is completly unsustainable

    Maybe there is an underlying message in Tipp Man's post? Yes, dramatic cuts will be necessary, but is cutting the pay of public sector workers the right way of doing it whether they are currently overpaid or not? Perhaps the issue is that there are simply too many PS workers. So, to take Tipp Man's point about PS workers tax, if they weren't charged income tax how many Revenue Commissioner posts could be eliminated? If trading between companies registered for VAT did not involve making VAT payments and then claiming them back, again how many RC posts could be eliminated? If quangos were largely closed down and ministers departments and the ministers themselves were required to do the jobs they are paid for, how many hangers on would go at what saving? My guess is that those items alone would save as much as An Bord Snip's proposals.

    The current oversized public sector has developed because the electorates have let governments everywhere go on a spree of endless regulation and administrative empire building, particularly by adding the blizzard of Directives from the EU to home grown meddling, and now stopping it is going to be painful. I remember once reading that in the UK during the days of it's control over the largest empire the world had ever seen, the total size of all government departments was then about the size of their current Ministry of Defence administration. That's the sort of statistic we should all be focussing on and looking for justification of the growth of our government departments:(


  • #228
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Tipp Man wrote: »
    The public sector doesn't generate funds from which to pay taxes, for example a public sector worker earning 50k paying 10k tax is costing the government 40k. Now the government could simple say ps worker you are now earning 40k but paying no tax. The effect on the government's expenditure is zero, they still only need to pay 40k. So you could (theorectically) do away with public servants paying tax:) however the 40k has to come from somewhere and it always comes from the private sector from PAYE, Corp Tax etc (i'm ignoring VAT receipts). If a private sector worker also on 50k paying 10k tax was told he no longer had to pay tax then the government is down 10k in income. So the private sector worker is contributing to the Governement tax take but the public sector is not (net)

    The idea should NOT be to compare fireman, Gardai, teachers etc to private sector workers, they should be compared to these services in other countries and paid similarly as well

    80% is obviously rubbish but cuts, and quite drastic cuts actually, will certainly have to be made, the current situation is completly unsustainable
    Well put, Tipp man. The public sector has the country drained and its time the necessary cuts were made now.


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