Why is public sector pay such a big issue now?

Riskymove · 07-08-2009 09:49AM

both sides in this "debate" are well able to make ridiculous posts

the stats from the reports were posted as a response to suggestions that pay cuts are so widespread that only a "tiny majority" in the private have not had them...just some context from official (private sector) sources

It was then claimed that the survey was carried out by the Unions as oppossed to a well established consultancy company.

My point in all of this is that there needs to action taken to reduce the current level of expenditure in order to reduce the deficit. The Government is also attempting to increase revenue through taxation.

Somewhere in the middle will be the result.

Public service workers have seen a reduction in their pay which is reducing the pay bill. There will be reduction in numbers....today there is a claim that there will be 3,000 less teachers in the new school year.

I have no doubt that the pay bill will be reduced further. I also believe that welfare and other spending will be reduced.

My own recent suggestion was that, if a pay cut is deemed necessary, that it be a reversal of the benchmarking award recieved. I never liked benchmarking and believe it has been a very devisive mechanism which has led to a lot of resentment. This in my ind is better than an across the board %.

I believe it should be reversed and then binned.

Riskymove · 07-08-2009 09:52AM

irish_bob wrote: »

public servants here need to be mainly benchmarked against their european counterparts

this is something I hear a lot....why should irish public servants pay be linked to what public servants earn in other countries?

should our welfare be similarly linked? should private sector wages?

Riskymove · 07-08-2009 09:55AM

irish_bob wrote: »

while the levels of wellfare in this country are redicolously high , thier is huge opposition to cutting it , this isnt the case with cutting public sector pay , the one thing that could put people on the streets is taking away thier freebies , were a people who cherish the right to scrounge

thats because welfare has become personified as an OAP who worked hard all his life and has no other means to survive!

while public sector has been personified as some usless faceless desk jockey laughing at the rest of the country as he relaxes on a bed of cash!

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 09:55AM

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Your friend Dresdens ridiculous posts,

If they are so ridiculous I challenge you to prove them wrong. It should be easy enough.

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 09:57AM

Riskymove wrote: »

this is something I hear a lot....why should irish public servants pay be linked to what public servants earn in other countries?

should our welfare be similarly linked? should private sector wages?

Should the cost of consumer goods? Should rents?

Riskymove · 07-08-2009 09:57AM

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Anyone sure of the details on whats the government are bringing in versus their expenditure? And also the breakdown of the expenditure... i.e. what on PS pay, welfare, services??

broadly speaking estimated this year to be €60bn expenditure €40bn revenue

expenditure is €21bn welfare €20bn PS pay bill €19bn everything else

deficit is currently €16bn

Riskymove · 07-08-2009 10:00AM

dresden8 wrote: »

The greens now have an opportunity to control us all through their green taxes, (which FF will heap on and blame the greens) and in their freakish heads it will be a great victory for the green agenda, an agenda we will only curse in the future.

I agree and i think the greens will be finished by the manouvers of FF

The greens original idea for a carbon tax was for it to be revenue neutral by lowering income tax

There is no way that income tax will be lowered now so i can see FF putting on a carbon tax anyway and blaming the greens

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 10:28AM

Riskymove wrote: »

I agree and i think the greens will be finished by the manouvers of FF

The greens original idea for a carbon tax was for it to be revenue neutral by lowering income tax

There is no way that income tax will be lowered now so i can see FF putting on a carbon tax anyway and blaming the greens

Can't wait to hear the speech at budget time from either Gormley or Ryan, telling us how taking it up the ass to plug the exchequer deficit is actually good for the planet and will be the green legacy.

Liars, stuped or naive, I can't make up my mind.

To offset my carbon taxes maybe I'll burn some plastic in my back garden on budget day, just to get my moneys worth.

irish_bob · 07-08-2009 10:32AM

podge3 wrote: »

I think its ingrained in the Irish psyche to be like this - I reckon people think we are still fighting the Brits and scrounging off them
rather than ourselves.

If we were to cut the public pay of all civil servants by, say, 20 % it would put the lower grades on less than what they would get on the dole. Look what that family of scroungers in Limerick are quoted as receiving - €3800 per month:eek:.

Everything needs to be addressed and social welfare has to be reduced by a lot more than 5% for the lay abouts that have never worked or will never work. I'm not referring to the recently unemployed here BTW.

agree about how we think the state is something foreign to be swindled , i didnt actually mention low paid public servants ( who are well paid compared to equivelents private sector workers and considering all they do ) , leave thier pay alone but we need to sack shed loads of them , nurses , teachers , police , politicians and consultants are all on redicolous wages compared to the rest of europe , ive a cousin in wales who is 45 and is over 20 years a nurse , i dont know what grade he is but hes fairly high , he earns 33 thousand pounds a year

irish_bob · 07-08-2009 10:38AM

Riskymove wrote: »

this is something I hear a lot....why should irish public servants pay be linked to what public servants earn in other countries?

should our welfare be similarly linked? should private sector wages?

yes to all three , we are competing against theese countries for business and foreign investment , we need to be at thier level in terms of costs and wages

gurramok · 07-08-2009 11:45AM

Riskymove wrote: »

broadly speaking estimated this year to be €60bn expenditure €40bn revenue

expenditure is €21bn welfare €20bn PS pay bill €19bn everything else

deficit is currently €16bn

Revenue is projected to be €34bn if its lucky to hit that.

My own recent suggestion was that, if a pay cut is deemed necessary, that it be a reversal of the benchmarking award recieved. I never liked benchmarking and believe it has been a very devisive mechanism which has led to a lot of resentment. This in my ind is better than an across the board %.

I believe it should be reversed and then binned.

Here, here. About time a bit of realism.

Spudmonkey · 07-08-2009 11:56AM

gurramok wrote: »

Revenue is projected to be €34bn if its lucky to hit that.

On PK this morning, the mentioned it would most likely be around 30, if we are lucky 31...

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 12:03PM

My own recent suggestion was that, if a pay cut is deemed necessary, that it be a reversal of the benchmarking award recieved. I never liked benchmarking and believe it has been a very devisive mechanism which has led to a lot of resentment. This in my ind is better than an across the board %.

I believe it should be reversed and then binned.

Here's a Public Sector pay calculation for you

Index
PS Pay Before Benchmarking 100
9% Benchmarking (Average)* 109
less 7.5% levy (Average)^ 100.825

* http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/02/23/story218519529.asp
^ http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=NEWS+FEATURES-qqqm=nav-qqqid=39365-qqqx=1.asp

There you go benchmarking taken back, apart from an economy wrecking 0.8%.

Golly gosh, so 100% of a well paid PS workforce took a minor 'pay cut'... Oh stop the press, gosh how will you folk ever get by..

So givyjoe81 if the taking back of benchmarking apart from .8% is only a "minor" pay cut you have to accept that benchmarking was only a "minor" pay rise, plus 0.8%.

You can't have it both ways.

What I want to know is why the Public Sector Unions aren't all over that simple sum like a rash.

Those fnckers are preparing to sell us out again.

gurramok · 07-08-2009 12:28PM

dresden8 wrote:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/...y218519529.asp

So no public sector worker has got a pay rise/increment since 2003? Pull the other one.

dresden8 wrote:

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/s...365-qqqx=1.asp

You forgot tax relief on pension levy, reduces that 7.5% to between 3 and 4%.

Riskymove · 07-08-2009 12:33PM

gurramok wrote: »

So no public sector worker has got a pay rise/increment since 2003? Pull the other one.

his point is that the levy almost cancels out benchmarking (I dont agree)

increments and national pay deal would have happened with or without benchmarking and I am talking about benchmarking not national pay deals

You forgot tax relief on pension levy, reduces that 7.5% to between 3 and 4%.

he's talking about gross figures...otherwise it could be said that tax, PRSI, health levy, income levy is paid on the benchmarking increases...so that would reduce the 9% average too

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 12:35PM

gurramok wrote: »

So no public sector worker has got a pay rise/increment since 2003? Pull the other one.

You forgot tax relief on pension levy, reduces that 7.5% to between 3 and 4%.

You forgot taxation on benchmarking which reduces that 9% to roughly half as well. Which reduces that 0.8% overall gain to around 0.4%.

You've been pulled up on that one before gurramok.

Yes the public sector has received pay rises since 2003, I believe the private sector has also.

Do you want to go once more around the merry go round on independent IBEC, ISME and Mercer reports which disprove the assertion that only a "tiny minority" of the private sector have escaped pay cuts?

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 12:41PM

Riskymove wrote: »

his point is that the levy almost cancels out benchmarking (I dont agree)

What's to disagree, there's the numbers?

gurramok · 07-08-2009 12:45PM

So lets see...

Benchmarking...PS only without performance in return.
Increments...PS only without performance in return. (private sector may have them, they are performance based)
National Pay deals...PS and a small number of private sectors abide by this.

Alot of pay rises there over the years which come out of the overall tax take.

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 12:47PM

gurramok wrote: »

So lets see...

Benchmarking...PS only without performance in return.
Increments...PS only without performance in return. (private sector may have them, they are performance based)
National Pay deals...PS and a small number of private sectors abide by this.

Alot of pay rises there over the years which come out of the overall tax take.

Didn't think you could argue the numbers.

Anyway, you wanted benchmarking taken back, you've already gotten your wish.

Be happy.

Riskymove · 07-08-2009 12:55PM

gurramok wrote: »

So lets see...

Benchmarking...PS only without performance in return.
Increments...PS only without performance in return. (private sector may have them, they are performance based)
National Pay deals...PS and a small number of private sectors abide by this.

Alot of pay rises there over the years which come out of the overall tax take.

are you suggesting that people in the private sector dont get raises?...since 2003?

Riskymove · 07-08-2009 12:59PM

dresden8 wrote: »

What's to disagree, there's the numbers?

they are too simplistic (the pay bill is more than 0.8% higher than pre-benchmarking) and dont take into account effects on pensions etc

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 01:09PM

Riskymove wrote: »

they are too simplistic (the pay bill is more than 0.8% higher than pre-benchmarking) and dont take into account effects on pensions etc

Part of the pay-bill problem is Bertie et al packing newly created state bodies and quangoes with his mates and resultant support staff, extra staff for decentralisation, indeed even properly recruited extra teachers and gardaí, nothing to do with benchmarking.

What about Ministers bringing in their constituency hangers-on into the public pay bill (in "over-staffed" departments) as a reward for services to the party? Again, nothing to do with benchmarking.

There is a whole load of crap out there needs reforming.

givyjoe81 · 07-08-2009 03:52PM

dresden8 wrote: »

If they are so ridiculous I challenge you to prove them wrong. It should be easy enough.

"Every time a public servant takes a days leave it makes baby Jebus cry":rolleyes:

Yes we're all out to get the PS, the root of all evil I say:rolleyes:

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 04:16PM

givyjoe81 wrote: »

"Every time a public servant takes a days leave it makes baby Jebus cry":rolleyes:

Yes we're all out to get the PS, the root of all evil I say:rolleyes:

Well you got me there. Care to prove anything else incorrect? Public servants getting stoned in the streets? Jimmmy's "real anger out there"? Anything? The numbers quoted? Anything at all?

And I never said all, just some ill-informed posters.

(And by the way, there is no baby Jebus, that was a light-hearted remark. Just a hint for the future.)

gurramok · 07-08-2009 08:28PM

dresden8 wrote: »

Didn't think you could argue the numbers.

Anyway, you wanted benchmarking taken back, you've already gotten your wish.

Be happy.

You got payrises from the public purse without any performance in return, cannot argue with that.

Benchmarking backwards has not happened yet so why would i and the masses be happy?

Riskymove wrote: »

are you suggesting that people in the private sector dont get raises?...since 2003?

No. They were performance based unlike benchmarking/increments. National pay deal was performance based as far as i remember, most private sector workers would not of been party to that, only some.

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 08:50PM

gurramok wrote: »

You got payrises from the public purse without any performance in return, cannot argue with that.

Benchmarking backwards has not happened yet so why would i and the masses be happy?

No. They were performance based unlike benchmarking/increments. National pay deal was performance based as far as i remember, most private sector workers would not of been party to that, only some.

Soapboxing rather than discussion.

Even when the numbers are in front of your eyes, there they are, irrelevant, invisible, because they don't fit your bias.

Carry on.

Sarn · 07-08-2009 09:29PM

Actually performance related increases is a good point. There is no incentive to work hard in the PS. You can work flat out while a colleague sits back and reads the paper. During the boom if you worked hard in the private sector you could get a good increment far more than the annual PS increment. Of course in the PS this served to shelter the dossers. Personally, I would welcome performance related pay in the PS. It would reward those who do their job well and earmark those who shouldn't be there.

Regarding the pension levy and whether or not it is a pay cut. When I retire my pension will be the same as before the levy was implemented, it makes no difference to what I'll get. What I do know is that my current take home pay is down several thousand a year, of which I accept as a necessity.

Finally, it has been bandied about that PS workers are paid 30% more than their EU PS colleagues. How much more are the private sector workers paid compared to their equivalent?

irish_bob · 07-08-2009 10:26PM

Sarn wrote: »

Actually performance related increases is a good point. There is no incentive to work hard in the PS. You can work flat out while a colleague sits back and reads the paper. During the boom if you worked hard in the private sector you could get a good increment far more than the annual PS increment. Of course in the PS this served to shelter the dossers. Personally, I would welcome performance related pay in the PS. It would reward those who do their job well and earmark those who shouldn't be there.

Regarding the pension levy and whether or not it is a pay cut. When I retire my pension will be the same as before the levy was implemented, it makes no difference to what I'll get. What I do know is that my current take home pay is down several thousand a year, of which I accept as a necessity.

Finally, it has been bandied about that PS workers are paid 30% more than their EU PS colleagues. How much more are the private sector workers paid compared to their equivalent?

its not relevant , ps workers should never have been benchmarked against those in the private sector here

nurses , police and consultants are paid a lot more here than thier counterparts in other countries which are incidently wealthier countries than ireland

dresden8 · 07-08-2009 10:31PM

irish_bob wrote: »

its not relevant ,

What's not relevant?

irish_bob · 07-08-2009 10:52PM

dresden8 wrote: »

What's not relevant?

whether garrage mechanics in a toyota dealership in drogheda earn more or less than a garrage mechanic in a toyota dealership in brighton or berlin

Why is public sector pay such a big issue now?

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