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Helmets - increase injuries

245

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Hemlet


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭irishmotorist


    Just came off once, sideways around a corner. It was a combination of damp road, armadillos and possibly a bit of hangover. When my shoulder hit the road, my head followed suit and one of my first thoughts was 'Thanks God for the helmet' because I felt it rap the surface reasonably hard for a slow impact - I suppose it was the 9mph or whatever vertical speed you reach when falling from a bike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭Vélo


    Gavin wrote: »
    Anyone else notice that when helmetless, one gets strange looks from helmeted cyclists?

    I get these disapproving looks which, after much pondering, I can only conclude are from lack of helmet. Particularly odd as the disapproving cyclists are bike salmon !


    It's not the lack of helmet..it's more that you're a bit weird looking.:p


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,987 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    ROK ON wrote: »
    And it is that logic that has lead to most of the financial crashes that we have seen .

    Bit off-topic, but those crashes are usually caused by people losing all sense of proportion and undertaking en masse activities that are both likely to go wrong AND that have severe consequences. They don't call them speculative frenzies for nothing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Edit: my post was off topic from the OP. I've never hit my head in an accident, so I can't answer. I hit my chin once. But I would rather I had serviced my gears than been wearing a chin helmet.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 253 ✭✭Tackleberry


    Had a bit of an epic crash about 3 months ago, pretty much the first I've ever had, and I'm 100% convinced my helmet saved me from some very serious damage - see pic attached and imagine thats the side of your head - so as discussed above, even if its for my 1 crash in 20 years of cycling, its well worth wearing one all the time.

    And if you have an uncomfortable helmet you need to get a new one, the good ones are very airy, light and comfortable nowadays.

    Can't for the life of me understand the nonsense saying they can do you more harm, like seatbelts hurting your chest in a crash or airbags bruising your face, if its that or a trip through the windscreen I know which I'd go for.

    I'm afraid the people who are anti-helmet will only be proved wrong by experiencing some kind of horrific close-call crash on their bike, hopefully it won't be too late.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    its well worth wearing one all the time.
    All the time??? Do you always cycle balls out? If I'm pottering into town on my high nelly for tea and a scone, I'm not wearing a f**king hemlet.

    None of these people are wearing a helmet and they all look fairly un brain injured to me.

    Should this woman be forced to wear a colander on her head?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/3778749206/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    I had 2 crashes in one year about 9 years ago. Second one was major and I was thrown upwards and landed directly on my head with the legs coming over the top afterwards. Helmet had a crack down the middle afterwards. My head did not. Only injury was to my ankle from the force of it whacking off the ground but I was able to walk away no bother (going into shock meant I wrongly assumed I was to blame and I was feeling guilty and just wanted to get out of there).

    I've glanced at some of the research linking helmet wearing to increased likelihood of injury and have never been convinced enough by the methodology to believe that they are not falling into the correlation does not equal causation trap.

    For example, I may be wrong, but I don't believe that any of these studies take into account the amount of time the subjects actually spent on their bike. It's reasonable to assume that people that cycle regularly will make a conscious decision on whether or not to wear a helmet and I would strongly suspect that the majority of people that spend a lot of time on their bike would opt to wear a helmet (though I appreciate there is a minority who decide not to). Put another way - the majority of helmet wearers are probably serious/frequent cyclists, though that doesn't mean that all serious/frequent cyclists do wear a helmet.

    Now take Average Joe who just pops on the bike down to the shops or for a relatively short commute - short enough that he can get to work without breaking sweat so he decides to dress for the office before getting on the bike and doesn't want to wear a helmet cos he'll probably sweat and unless JD hooks him up with a HairMet, that chick in Accounts that he's been working on for the past while ain't gonna like the cut of his jib when he shows up.

    Now compare the number of incidents per subject as a ratio of Number of Incidents/Total Time On Bike. Split that into your With Helmet and Without Helmet groups and then your research might merit the time to read it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,507 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    None of these people are wearing a helmet and they all look fairly un brain injured to me.

    I love that blog.

    This one is particularly great.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    All the time??? Do you always cycle balls out? If I'm pottering into town on my high nelly for tea and a scone, I'm not wearing a f**king hemlet.

    None of these people are wearing a helmet and they all look fairly un brain injured to me.

    Should this woman be forced to wear a colander on her head?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/3778749206/

    Absolutely - you can't have fine women lie that cycling around causing accidents as other (male) cyclists try to turn their heads through 180 degrees!

    Do these threads ever resolve anything? Has anyone ever read through some of the arguments here and been convinced one way or the other to change their mind?

    I can see the merits of the no helmet argument, but I'm still going to wear mine - even on the short spins.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Lumen wrote: »
    I love that blog.

    This one is particularly great.

    She's very well co-ordinated - she even has matching bike clips - that's continental women for you.......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Lumen wrote: »
    I love that blog.

    This one is particularly great.
    That's shocking. Does she not know she is going to end up like a zombie on a life support machine? Someone please get over there and save her from herself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭knoxor


    Personally I think its more important to wear high vis clothing than a helmet. Any serious accident will probably be caused by others on the road, particularly drivers about to pull out of a side road.

    I've had instances where a driver took a second look again as he spotted me in my high vis vest. If I hadn't been wearing that I would probably have needed a helmet.

    Personally I don't wear a helmet. I am quite aware of whats going on around me and am always looking for potential danger. I think the high vis gear is all the protection I need.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭irishmotorist


    Can't for the life of me understand the nonsense saying they can do you more harm, like seatbelts hurting your chest in a crash or airbags bruising your face, if its that or a trip through the windscreen I know which I'd go for.

    I totally agree with you. It's like the guy who never wears his seatbelt in case it jams if he was to end upside down in a river and is worried he'll drown because of it. It's just not wanting to do it and coming up with a very unlikely scenario that can't be dismissed as 'could never happen' while the many more possible situations are ignored.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,987 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Do these threads ever resolve anything? Has anyone ever read through some of the arguments here and been convinced one way or the other to change their mind?
    I became rather sceptical of the merits of helmets after finding links to the statistical data off a forum like this, though I was initially quite sure that they were a very useful though inconvenient piece of equipment.

    I can't say how effective they are in preventing head injuries, because I don't think the data available allows one to say that with any precision. However, it clearly isn't 88% (the most quoted figure), and, moreover, non-competitive road cycling clearly isn't unusually productive of head injuries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭c0rk3r


    I don't think anyone who has been in an accident is going to look at their helmet and curse it afterwards. Its counter-intuitive. The likehood is your going to be thanking your lucky stars you were wearing it. I find it difficult to believe anyone whos been in an accident and suffered some form of head injury, mild or severe not accepting that leaving their helmet at home was a bad idea. There has been numerous accident reports on this forum over the years and the general consensus has been that helmets prevented a more serious injury. There was also a thread, cant remember the user, a non helmet wearer anyway, was involved in a graceless high speed fall. The conclusion at the end was his acceptance of wearing a helmet in future. Unfortunately that is what it take to convert people. A good hard fall. It doesn't have to be that way but i guess it just human nature.

    As for the likes of likes of Copenhagen and Amsterdam the cycling culture, cycling infrastructure and attitudes of other road users towards cyclists is completely different and not comparable to our fair city/country. Just look at the first rule of cycle chic "I choose to cycle chic and, at every opportunity, I will choose Style over Speed." I doubt most cyclists using those rust buckets can gather an speed to do themselves serious injury.

    From reading your blog tunney im guessing your a helmet wearer and thanking your lucky stars for their existence?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,987 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    c0rk3r wrote: »
    There has been numerous accident reports on this forum over the years and the general consensus has been that helmets prevented a more serious injury.

    This isn't evidence really. You can find glowing personal testimony to the efficacy of copper bracelets and homeopathy as well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    All the time??? Do you always cycle balls out? If I'm pottering into town on my high nelly for tea and a scone, I'm not wearing a f**king hemlet.

    None of these people are wearing a helmet and they all look fairly un brain injured to me.

    Should this woman be forced to wear a colander on her head?
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/3778749206/

    no helmet and wearing headphones

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/3777934717/

    Cool city bike though!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭c0rk3r


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    This isn't evidence really. You can find glowing personal testimony to the efficacy of copper bracelets and homeopathy as well.

    No i guess not. Call it a common sense approach based on experience. There's no evidence out there that suggests you're more likely to get beaten up and robbed by men wearing tracksuits but when you see a gang of them approach you cross the street.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 89 ✭✭hunkymonkey


    Can someone point me in direction of 'scientific evidence shows' studies for non-helmet wearing safety? Would like to take a look. From doing other sports its quite common for the 'non-freds' not to comply with safety to show seniority. I've boxed for many years and only the senior guys would get away with it when sparring, although i'm guilty of this i wouldn't go out without a cycling helmet :-) I've seen this on many a club spin. I'm presuming the same is true in hurling.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,995 ✭✭✭✭blorg


    @c0rk3r- I posted the counter anecdotes of both myself and my girlfriend having accidents in which we hit our unhelmeted heads. In my case there was a hell of a lot of blood but no lasting damage. My girlfriend suffered concussion but again no lasting damage... Anecdotes.

    I wear a helmet maybe 50% of the time, always during races, sportives and mountain biking. Sometimes during group rides or when I am on my own.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 11,987 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    Can someone point me in direction of 'scientific evidence shows' studies for non-helmet wearing safety? Would like to take a look. From doing other sports its quite common for the 'non-freds' not to comply with safety to show seniority. I've boxed for many years and only the senior guys would get away with it when sparring, although i'm guilty of this i wouldn't go out without a cycling helmet :-) I've seen this on many a club spin. I'm presuming the same is true in hurling.
    The wikipedia page on Bicycle Helmet contains a reasonably dispassionate look at the subject of safety evidence, with many references.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_helmet


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,387 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    blorg wrote: »
    I have had accidents NOT wearing a helmet where I didn't hit my head but possibly would have (not seriously) had I been wearing the helmet, due to the increased head diameter.
    +1, goes for daily life too. i.e. If I wore a helmet all my life I would have probably gone through 10 of them by now, none on a bike and I would never have died like some people presume when they see a cracked helmet. Now if I did wear one all the time I expect I would have bumped my head on this a hell of a lot more.

    Should really be other options
    If you have had a NEAR spill have you come away from it thinking
    "Thank fcuk I wasn't wearing a helmet, if I was I would would have had a spill"

    If you have had a spill have you come away from it thinking
    "Balls, I wish I wasn't wearing that helmet, probably would not have risked that"
    Can someone point me in direction of 'scientific evidence shows' studies for non-helmet wearing safety?
    http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=205323&sectioncode=26
    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18481926?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16019398?ordinalpos=12&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    c0rk3r wrote: »
    As for the likes of likes of Copenhagen and Amsterdam the cycling culture, cycling infrastructure and attitudes of other road users towards cyclists is completely different and not comparable to our fair city/country..
    So we should give up on creating a safe cycling culture and insist everyone wear a hemlet, rather than making the act of cycling safer?
    c0rk3r wrote: »
    Just look at the first rule of cycle chic "I choose to cycle chic and, at every opportunity, I will choose Style over Speed." I doubt most cyclists using those rust buckets can gather an speed to do themselves serious injury.
    If you want to race, ride fult pelt through a town or ride in large close knit group, then yes you should wear a hemlet. Club training rules and race regularions already cover 2 of these situations. If you want to wander around at a moderate pace (which is what I do most of the time) then you shouldn't have to. Why can't we make a reasoned choice based on the type of cycling we are going to do?

    Efforts should be made to increase cycling numbers and improve cycling facilities not on badgering people into strapping foam to their heads.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    So we should give up on creating a safe cycling culture and insist everyone wear a hemlet, rather than making the act of cycling safer?

    Your line of argument there really belongs on the Wikipedia page on the Strawman - do you want to do the honours?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,585 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    c0rk3r wrote: »
    From reading your blog tunney im guessing your a helmet wearer and thanking your lucky stars for their existence?

    yes very much so.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Your line of argument there really belongs on the Wikipedia page on the Strawman - do you want to do the honours?
    I know it does not directly answer the OP's question as to whether a helmet is safer in an accident, I agree that they would of be benefit in a head collision save for a few exceptional cases.

    But the debate has deviated from that question. I believe that for normal utility cycling (commuting, shopping, visiting friends), where it is not necessary to cycle anywhere close to a dangerous speed, then a helmet should not be compulsory. And that time arguing over mandatory use would be better spent lobbying for better facilites and encouraging people into cycling (I should listen to myself and stop posting in these threads). I would rather avoid accidents than limit the consequences.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭FrankGrimes


    But the debate has deviated from that question. I believe that for normal utility cycling (commuting, shopping, visiting friends), where it is not necessary to cycle anywhere close to a dangerous speed, then a helmet should not be compulsory. And that time arguing over mandatory use would be better spent lobbying for better facilites and encouraging people into cycling (I should listen to myself and stop posting in these threads). I would rather avoid accidents than limit the consequences.

    I actually largely agree with you on that. Personally, I'd still wear the helmet >90% of my time on the bike out of habit if nothing else, but I'm not sure making it compulsory is the right thing to do as I agree the main focus should be on increasing cycling adoption as the more people that cycle the more drivers learn to deal with cyclists appropriately and then it'll become safer to cruise around the city at low speeds on the bike.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,870 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1182.html

    Assessment of current bicycle helmets for the potential to cause rotational injury

    more here

    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1013.html

    dont who these guys are though

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,506 ✭✭✭✭DirkVoodoo


    tomasrojo wrote: »
    This isn't evidence really. You can find glowing personal testimony to the efficacy of copper bracelets and homeopathy as well.

    Are you reading bad science too? :)


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