Helmets - increase injuries

tunney

On a few threads multiple posters, whose opinion I'd respect (for freds), stated that "helmets increase the likelihood of some types of injuries"

So how many posters have first hand, and i stress first hand, experience of a crash in which they had a spill and came away from it thinking - "thank god I wasn't wearing a helmet, if I had been I would have been fcuked"?

And a second question how many have had a spill and came away from it thinking - "thank god I was wearing a helmet, if I hadn't been I would have been fcuked"?

Raam

I had one outside my work, wasn't wearing a helmet at the time. Wish I had been. Whacked my head off the ground and had some nice face rash for a long time. It's still there but not as noticable. I was a bit of a zombie for a couple of weeks. Woke up every morning like I had a hangover.

ednwireland

i shall regail my usual 2 accidents

1 hit a bad road surface coming out of work in the uk split helmet sore neck some road rash

2 trying bike out from shop no helmet, fell off ( talk about embarrassing) ended up with fractured eye socket 5 stitches and still had a sore neck (brake lever also broke my little finger but i dont think a helmet wouldve saved me)

all other scrapes never hit my head on the road

i always wear a helmet btw

TinyExplosions

Neither for me. Any crashes I've had (with or without helmet on) I've always thought that it wouldn't have made a difference either way.

Maybe I just don't crash enough/badly enough

rottenhat

You couldn't have waited until Friday for this?

Oh, and +1 on Tiny's post - of all the accidents I've had, never once have I come close to hitting my head. Still wear the helmet though

DJsail

On the few times I have tasted the National Road Agency's development plan first hand I've continuously thanked God for the good people at Giro and their efforts in providing me with such a good piece of kit!

Me thinks this thread will be popular!

Canis Lupus

Two crashes in my cycling life both involved going over the handlebar, rolling along the front wheel and pretty much landing on my arse/feet. Much to my own amusement. Both crashes caused by pretty women as well. So pretty that I took my eyes off the road in front of me to look at them.

So no a helmet was of no use and I still don't wear one.

rottenhat

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Both crashes caused by pretty women as well. So pretty that I took my eyes off the road in front of me to look at them.

So no a helmet was of no use and I still don't wear one.

Sounds like a pair of horse blinders might be in order though.

Beasty

Only one major accident (in over 40 years of cycling), which involved going over the handlebars and hitting the tarmac helmet first. Ended up in hospital for 3 days with concussion and needed skin graft around the corner of my eye (plus plenty of roadrash across face and arms). Helmet absorbed major part of the impact, and without it I am sure I would have had much more serious injuries.

Ddad

Not me, but my good buddy Noel, had a spill in a group of cyclists caused by dog walkers in the middle of the road. Showed me the helmet; split back to front. Methinks he'd be relearning the alphabet if he hadn't been wearing it.

MadHatter

All bar one of my spills have involved the rear wheel sliding out (on ice or greasy road) and me going sliding along the road on my back or shoulder, no fear of hitting my head.

However I did come off earlier this year on the way to work, going down a hill, front wheel hit some ice and it went from under me. I was thrown forward (not sure how exacly) and landed upside down with my shoulder and head taking the impact simultaneously. Very glad to have been wearing a helmet. I won't claim that it saved my life, but it certainly prevented a some road rash, a serious headache, and possibly a trip to A&E.

Jawgap

In the few spills I've had only once did I reckon a helmet saved me from a sore head.

Coming around a corner at speed and hit some ice - the back wheel stepped out and I came down hard breaking my right collar bone and smacking my helmeted head off the ground.

On looking at the state of the helmet afterwards I felt I was lucky to be wearing it or my headache would have been a lot worse.

On reflection - I reckon the helmet did it's job, but if I'd been a bit more sensible in choosing my route and my speed I probably wouldn't have had the accident in the first place.

Making helmets compulsory would be a nonsense. One of my more favourite arguments against compulsion goes like this - it would be llike blaming gunshot victims for failing to wear a bullet proof vest!!!

If the authorities really want to make cycling safer they should address road user behaviour.

peterako

Not riding quite a long as Beasty, but close to 40 years. And have had a few nasty accidents in my day (Mountain and Road).

So far only a few stand out as needing my helmet (which I always wear).

One:
Riding at low speed pushing my wife along and I lost balance.

Fell off the bike onto my back.

Was wearing a backpack and my head was thrown back 'whiplash' fashion.

I remember thinking (as my helmet hit the tarmac):

1. Thank God I have a helmet on!
2. I hope my daughters (who were riding behind) saw that!

My helmet did its job well, cracking and absorbing the impact which would surely have cracked my head.

Unfortunately my daughters didn't see me fall

Like previous posters many of my other accidents would not have resulted in head injuries, but for the few that could have.....
And rememeber, many of the accidents that occur are due to OTHER road users, and therefore outside your control

Now, like the seatbelt in the car, I feel 'naked' if not wearing my helmet on my bike.

Peter

Beasty

Jawgap wrote: »

If the authorities really want to make cycling safer they should address road user behaviour.

Agreed, but they also need to deal with the very poor quality of roads. I realise this is going down the priority list in the current economic climate, but I do find it staggering that there is major ongoing investment in certain motorways that are hardly used, when they are incapable of fixing potholes in roads that have probably not been resurfaced in decades.

mloc123

Even *if* a helmet takes none of the force it still will act as a spacer between your face and the ground. Have only hit the ground hard once with my head and glad I had the helmet on.

keenan110

A few years ago cycling to school i fell of my bike into a pebbel dashed wall, big chunks were taken out of my helmet, so im glad that wasnt my head!

Gavin

Anyone else notice that when helmetless, one gets strange looks from helmeted cyclists?

I get these disapproving looks which, after much pondering, I can only conclude are from lack of helmet. Particularly odd as the disapproving cyclists are bike salmon !

blorg

I have had accidents NOT wearing a helmet where I didn't hit my head but possibly would have (not seriously) had I been wearing the helmet, due to the increased head diameter. I still think in an accident a helmet on balance is likely to reduce the severity of injuries and would prefer to be wearing one if in an accident. However the likelihoood of serious accident causing head injury is also low.

ROK ON

@Blorg - the fact that the probability of any event is statistically low, is largely irrelevant if the consequences of that event occurring are too diificult to bear.
I see this logic in my job all the time, the ah sure that is unlikely to happen, rather than questioning the likely outcome if it did in fact happen.

Let me say, I wear a helmet out of a sense of safety (perceived). I don't like wearing one, they are uncomfortable, and I would prefer not to wear one - but can't feel safe without one.

Raam

I stopped wearing one going to work since I bought a load of cycling caps

Chips Lovell

I've had mercifully few spills and never one that involved impact on my head. Nevertheless I'd still wear it virtually all of the time (i.e. with the exception of maybe a spin down to the shops or across town). At this stage I'd feel naked without one.

Having said that, I wouldn't be a helmet evangelist, i.e. calling someone dumb for not wearing one or arguing for compulsion. At the end of the day, it's personal choice. I feel that it reduces the likelihood of injury, but I know that it doesn't make me immune from it.

tunney wrote: »

On a few threads multiple posters, whose opinion I'd respect (for freds), stated that "helmets increase the likelihood of some types of injuries"

I think these remarks are fuelled by studies that show helmets increase the likelihood of certain injuries. However, you have to take these things in context, i.e. balance the likelihood of those injuries against those that a helmet would prevent/mitigate. There was also that study that found that motorists drove closer to people wearing helmets than those without, though I remember reading that one and wondering a little about its methodology.

Canis Lupus

ROK ON wrote: »

Let me say, I wear a helmet out of a sense of safety (perceived). I don't like wearing one, they are uncomfortable, and I would prefer not to wear one - but can't feel safe without one.

I find the lack of that safety feeling makes me a safer and more sensible cyclist.

Having said that I was belting down a hill yesterday and the thought did potter into my unprotected head that I should possibly be wearing one seeing as I was keeping pace with traffic on a dual carriageway. I think I may invest simply for spins where I tend to be in places where I can get up a bit of speed rather than the daily commute which is mostly slow and 'safe'.

TinyExplosions

rottenhat wrote: »

You couldn't have waited until Friday for this?

Oh, and +1 on Tiny's post - of all the accidents I've had, never once have I come close to hitting my head. Still wear the helmet though

I've hit my head on a couple of spills (both with and without helmet)

biomech

most if not all of the posts here seem to deal with road cycling.. fair enough.. i cycle off road (scared of cars so wont cycle road) on trails lined mainly with large boulders.. these things would stop a car not to mind a mtb... take on one of these babies and your checking out via the front door (super man style) and your on a collision course with the next boulder about 2 meters further on.. head first... nearly all my spills have been like this (at low enough speed tho) but ive been lucky enough not to connect with anything solid.... Just one question tho? How many of yee regret wearing a helmet?? and why??

bcmf

amnt really sure how a helmet can make an injury worse.
But I mainly wear one to try and eliminate the odds of my wife and kids having to feed me through a straw for the rest of my life.

blorg

ROK ON wrote: »

@Blorg - the fact that the probability of any event is statistically low, is largely irrelevant if the consequences of that event occurring are too diificult to bear.

Using that logic you would never get on an airplane.

tomasrojo

ROK ON wrote: »

@Blorg - the fact that the probability of any event is statistically low, is largely irrelevant if the consequences of that event occurring are too diificult to bear.

But surely one has to balance the severity of an outcome against its likelihood? Life would be impossibly complex if you spent all your time trying to protect yourself against unlikely but fatal things. There are a myriad of ways you could die. You just can't carry around that much safety equipment.

ROK ON

blorg wrote: »

Using that logic you would never get on an airplane.

If you were to live your life according to that mantra, then yu may be correct. My point was, however, that it is common for people to justify an action by reference to the fact that the alternative has a low probability of occurrance. I try to position myself so that I envisage what would be the worst outcome if the probability became actuality. Then I try to make a decision.

Ghost Rider

Even though I agree with the general sentiment motivating this poll (i.e. a suspicion that the "helmets can be dangerous" argument is spurious), the results, being taken from such a small selection of people, are hardly going to affect the debate one way or the other.

tomasrojo

ROK ON wrote: »

If you were to live your life according to that mantra, then yu may be correct. My point was, however, that it is common for people to justify an action by reference to the fact that the alternative has a low probability of occurrance. I try to position myself so that I envisage what would be the worst outcome if the probability became actuality. Then I try to make a decision.

Well, something could have devastating consequences and be extremely unlikely. A severe heartache in your early 20s is unlikely but potentially fatal. Should a young person schedule his or her life so he or she is always near to a cardiac unit? Or keep a defibrillator at home, just in case?

I know what you mean, but you have to accept some level of risk of death in everyday life. That's just life.

ROK ON

tomasrojo wrote: »

But surely one has to balance the severity of an outcome against its likelihood? Life would be impossibly complex if you spent all your time trying to protect yourself against unlikely but fatal things. There are a myriad of ways you could die. You just can't carry around that much safety equipment.

And it is that logic that has lead to most of the financial crashes that we have seen - I was trying to apply some sensible risk minimization techniques. It's all about a relatively simple weighing up of odds versus outcomes, and then overlay a decision.
For example, I cycle almost daily. I accept that I am going to have a spill, crash etc. I dont seek them out, and try to stay safe, but I accept that as a cyclist there is SOME likelihod of accident.
I still choose to cycle.
Now, I accept that the chance of a head injury while cycling is low, but I am not as prepared to bear the consequences of it, so I wear a helmet. If the worst was to happen, I may still end up a vegetable, but I FEEL safer (perceived) with the helmet.
So I am prepared to accept, cuts, grazes, broken limbs (up to a point), but want to have at least the minimum insurance against head injuries (that is all a helmet is IMO - minimum insurance).
BTW, I would not enforce helmet wearing, we all make choices, and with those choices comes personal responsibility. I will not dissuade someone from wearing a helmet, but will also try not to go on with the needless cant about from the hardcore anti-helmet crowd (not saying that applies to any here).

Finally, when I take my soon to be 5yr old kid out on her bike, I rarely make her wear a helmet, as she usually cycles on the footpath:D (where it is obviously safer to cycle).

petethedrummer

Hemlet

irishmotorist

Just came off once, sideways around a corner. It was a combination of damp road, armadillos and possibly a bit of hangover. When my shoulder hit the road, my head followed suit and one of my first thoughts was 'Thanks God for the helmet' because I felt it rap the surface reasonably hard for a slow impact - I suppose it was the 9mph or whatever vertical speed you reach when falling from a bike.

Vélo

Gavin wrote: »

Anyone else notice that when helmetless, one gets strange looks from helmeted cyclists?

I get these disapproving looks which, after much pondering, I can only conclude are from lack of helmet. Particularly odd as the disapproving cyclists are bike salmon !

It's not the lack of helmet..it's more that you're a bit weird looking.:p

tomasrojo

ROK ON wrote: »

And it is that logic that has lead to most of the financial crashes that we have seen .

Bit off-topic, but those crashes are usually caused by people losing all sense of proportion and undertaking en masse activities that are both likely to go wrong AND that have severe consequences. They don't call them speculative frenzies for nothing.

petethedrummer

Edit: my post was off topic from the OP. I've never hit my head in an accident, so I can't answer. I hit my chin once. But I would rather I had serviced my gears than been wearing a chin helmet.

Tackleberry

Had a bit of an epic crash about 3 months ago, pretty much the first I've ever had, and I'm 100% convinced my helmet saved me from some very serious damage - see pic attached and imagine thats the side of your head - so as discussed above, even if its for my 1 crash in 20 years of cycling, its well worth wearing one all the time.

And if you have an uncomfortable helmet you need to get a new one, the good ones are very airy, light and comfortable nowadays.

Can't for the life of me understand the nonsense saying they can do you more harm, like seatbelts hurting your chest in a crash or airbags bruising your face, if its that or a trip through the windscreen I know which I'd go for.

I'm afraid the people who are anti-helmet will only be proved wrong by experiencing some kind of horrific close-call crash on their bike, hopefully it won't be too late.

petethedrummer

Tackleberry wrote: »

its well worth wearing one all the time.

All the time??? Do you always cycle balls out? If I'm pottering into town on my high nelly for tea and a scone, I'm not wearing a f**king hemlet.

None of these people are wearing a helmet and they all look fairly un brain injured to me.

Should this woman be forced to wear a colander on her head?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/3778749206/

FrankGrimes

I had 2 crashes in one year about 9 years ago. Second one was major and I was thrown upwards and landed directly on my head with the legs coming over the top afterwards. Helmet had a crack down the middle afterwards. My head did not. Only injury was to my ankle from the force of it whacking off the ground but I was able to walk away no bother (going into shock meant I wrongly assumed I was to blame and I was feeling guilty and just wanted to get out of there).

I've glanced at some of the research linking helmet wearing to increased likelihood of injury and have never been convinced enough by the methodology to believe that they are not falling into the correlation does not equal causation trap.

For example, I may be wrong, but I don't believe that any of these studies take into account the amount of time the subjects actually spent on their bike. It's reasonable to assume that people that cycle regularly will make a conscious decision on whether or not to wear a helmet and I would strongly suspect that the majority of people that spend a lot of time on their bike would opt to wear a helmet (though I appreciate there is a minority who decide not to). Put another way - the majority of helmet wearers are probably serious/frequent cyclists, though that doesn't mean that all serious/frequent cyclists do wear a helmet.

Now take Average Joe who just pops on the bike down to the shops or for a relatively short commute - short enough that he can get to work without breaking sweat so he decides to dress for the office before getting on the bike and doesn't want to wear a helmet cos he'll probably sweat and unless JD hooks him up with a HairMet, that chick in Accounts that he's been working on for the past while ain't gonna like the cut of his jib when he shows up.

Now compare the number of incidents per subject as a ratio of Number of Incidents/Total Time On Bike. Split that into your With Helmet and Without Helmet groups and then your research might merit the time to read it.

Lumen

petethedrummer wrote: »

None of these people are wearing a helmet and they all look fairly un brain injured to me.

I love that blog.

This one is particularly great.

Jawgap

petethedrummer wrote: »

All the time??? Do you always cycle balls out? If I'm pottering into town on my high nelly for tea and a scone, I'm not wearing a f**king hemlet.

None of these people are wearing a helmet and they all look fairly un brain injured to me.

Should this woman be forced to wear a colander on her head?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/3778749206/

Absolutely - you can't have fine women lie that cycling around causing accidents as other (male) cyclists try to turn their heads through 180 degrees!

Do these threads ever resolve anything? Has anyone ever read through some of the arguments here and been convinced one way or the other to change their mind?

I can see the merits of the no helmet argument, but I'm still going to wear mine - even on the short spins.

Jawgap

Lumen wrote: »

I love that blog.

This one is particularly great.

She's very well co-ordinated - she even has matching bike clips - that's continental women for you.......

petethedrummer

Lumen wrote: »

I love that blog.

This one is particularly great.

That's shocking. Does she not know she is going to end up like a zombie on a life support machine? Someone please get over there and save her from herself.

knoxor

Personally I think its more important to wear high vis clothing than a helmet. Any serious accident will probably be caused by others on the road, particularly drivers about to pull out of a side road.

I've had instances where a driver took a second look again as he spotted me in my high vis vest. If I hadn't been wearing that I would probably have needed a helmet.

Personally I don't wear a helmet. I am quite aware of whats going on around me and am always looking for potential danger. I think the high vis gear is all the protection I need.

irishmotorist

Tackleberry wrote: »

Can't for the life of me understand the nonsense saying they can do you more harm, like seatbelts hurting your chest in a crash or airbags bruising your face, if its that or a trip through the windscreen I know which I'd go for.

I totally agree with you. It's like the guy who never wears his seatbelt in case it jams if he was to end upside down in a river and is worried he'll drown because of it. It's just not wanting to do it and coming up with a very unlikely scenario that can't be dismissed as 'could never happen' while the many more possible situations are ignored.

tomasrojo

Jawgap wrote: »

Do these threads ever resolve anything? Has anyone ever read through some of the arguments here and been convinced one way or the other to change their mind?

I became rather sceptical of the merits of helmets after finding links to the statistical data off a forum like this, though I was initially quite sure that they were a very useful though inconvenient piece of equipment.

I can't say how effective they are in preventing head injuries, because I don't think the data available allows one to say that with any precision. However, it clearly isn't 88% (the most quoted figure), and, moreover, non-competitive road cycling clearly isn't unusually productive of head injuries.

c0rk3r

I don't think anyone who has been in an accident is going to look at their helmet and curse it afterwards. Its counter-intuitive. The likehood is your going to be thanking your lucky stars you were wearing it. I find it difficult to believe anyone whos been in an accident and suffered some form of head injury, mild or severe not accepting that leaving their helmet at home was a bad idea. There has been numerous accident reports on this forum over the years and the general consensus has been that helmets prevented a more serious injury. There was also a thread, cant remember the user, a non helmet wearer anyway, was involved in a graceless high speed fall. The conclusion at the end was his acceptance of wearing a helmet in future. Unfortunately that is what it take to convert people. A good hard fall. It doesn't have to be that way but i guess it just human nature.

As for the likes of likes of Copenhagen and Amsterdam the cycling culture, cycling infrastructure and attitudes of other road users towards cyclists is completely different and not comparable to our fair city/country. Just look at the first rule of cycle chic "I choose to cycle chic and, at every opportunity, I will choose Style over Speed." I doubt most cyclists using those rust buckets can gather an speed to do themselves serious injury.

From reading your blog tunney im guessing your a helmet wearer and thanking your lucky stars for their existence?

tomasrojo

c0rk3r wrote: »

There has been numerous accident reports on this forum over the years and the general consensus has been that helmets prevented a more serious injury.

This isn't evidence really. You can find glowing personal testimony to the efficacy of copper bracelets and homeopathy as well.

Jawgap

petethedrummer wrote: »

All the time??? Do you always cycle balls out? If I'm pottering into town on my high nelly for tea and a scone, I'm not wearing a f**king hemlet.

None of these people are wearing a helmet and they all look fairly un brain injured to me.

Should this woman be forced to wear a colander on her head?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/3778749206/

no helmet and wearing headphones

http://www.flickr.com/photos/16nine/3777934717/

Cool city bike though!

c0rk3r

tomasrojo wrote: »

This isn't evidence really. You can find glowing personal testimony to the efficacy of copper bracelets and homeopathy as well.

No i guess not. Call it a common sense approach based on experience. There's no evidence out there that suggests you're more likely to get beaten up and robbed by men wearing tracksuits but when you see a gang of them approach you cross the street.

hunkymonkey

Can someone point me in direction of 'scientific evidence shows' studies for non-helmet wearing safety? Would like to take a look. From doing other sports its quite common for the 'non-freds' not to comply with safety to show seniority. I've boxed for many years and only the senior guys would get away with it when sparring, although i'm guilty of this i wouldn't go out without a cycling helmet :-) I've seen this on many a club spin. I'm presuming the same is true in hurling.