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  • 03-08-2009 06:02PM
    #1
    plasmaguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,683 ✭✭✭


    Five reasons provincial winners tend to do badly in the AI apart from Kerry and Tyrone.

    1. You learn more from a defeat than a victory. Provincial winners don't get to learn anything along the way.

    2. You learn who are the form players and who are consistent the more games you play

    3. Competitive match practise gives you an edge and you hit the ground running

    4. It takes you a few minutes to get back to the pace of championship football once you have a rest

    5. Losing teams have a greater desire and hunger than teams who have won provincial championships.

    This year proved once and for all that Dublin are better off losing Leinster next year, as it seems Kerry are losing Munster.


«1

Comments

  • #2
    themandan6611
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,631 ✭✭✭themandan6611


    plasmaguy wrote: »
    Five reasons provincial winners tend to do badly in the AI apart from Kerry and Tyrone.

    1. You learn more from a defeat than a victory. Provincial winners don't get to learn anything along the way.

    2. You learn who are the form players and who are consistent the more games you play

    3. Competitive match practise gives you an edge and you hit the ground running

    4. It takes you a few minutes to get back to the pace of championship football once you have a rest

    5. Losing teams have a greater desire and hunger than teams who have won provincial championships.

    This year proved once and for all that Dublin are better off losing Leinster next year, as it seems Kerry are losing Munster.


    hasnt hurt tyrone, maybe better management and players would help dublin. form is shown in training, look at kilkenny. may not be a prob next year as kildare will leinster


  • #3
    corny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭corny


    You could say playing matches in consecutive weeks is a big ask for the qualifiers too. All in all the cream rise to the top and for near enough a decade now thats Tyrone and Kerry. A different format won't change that.


  • #4
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    Kery have reached All Irelands by both the conventional route and the qualifier route. Likewise Tyrone went the qualifier route last year but won Ulster this year. Moaning about the system is usually reserved for supporters of teams who've just been knocked out of the champoionship. If they're not good enough,the system is irrelevant. Donegal and Wicklow would claim the tiredness of playing weekly qualifiers cost them ultimately, while now the Dubs are laughably blaming the long lay off for their lack of sharpness.

    Bottom line, you'll never please everyone but the really good teams generally get to the latter stages of the championship, while those not good enough generally don't. End of.


  • #5
    L1m1tless
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    Surely 2 teams in the 1/4 finals should be a closer match up than we saw today and saturday. 16-17 points easy victories. The current format does need revision alright.


  • #6
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    CowboyDreams wrote: »
    Surely 2 teams in the 1/4 finals should be a closer match up than we saw today and saturday. 16-17 points easy victories. The current format does need revision alright.

    The system isn't to blame for this though. In one game the Leinster champions were hammered by a qualifier, while in the other the Munster champions hammered a qualifier.


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  • #7
    corny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭corny


    flahavaj wrote: »
    while now the Dubs are laughably blaming the long lay off for their lack of sharpness.

    Not this Dub and not any i've talked to. Think you made that up.


  • #8
    L1m1tless
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    If they did away with the provincial's It would be a different sotry. dublin and donegal wouldn't have been near the 1/4 finals. Dublin have had it too easy in the leinsters for the past few years and it shows they dont deserve to be in the 1/4's. how many have they won in the last 5 years? ;)


  • #9
    damnyanks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭damnyanks


    well since they hadnt lost a game up until today they have more rights then any other team to be there.

    I'd say change the format so it doesnt allow moaning from teams who won provincials but lose to a back door boy to arise


  • #10
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    corny wrote: »
    Not this Dub and not any i've talked to. Think you made that up.

    Plenty of people on other threads here doing it.

    Heres one for a start, just top prove I'm not "making it up" as you so blithely put it.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61434067&postcount=30


  • #11
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    CowboyDreams wrote: »
    If they did away with the provincial's It would be a different sotry. dublin and donegal wouldn't have been near the 1/4 finals. Dublin have had it too easy in the leinsters for the past few years and it shows they dont deserve to be in the 1/4's. how many have they won in the last 5 years? ;)

    What do you sugest? Open draw? How would that be any fairer? Dublin could draw Kerry in the first round, while a middle of the road team could get a handy run all the way to the final. No system is perfect.


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  • #12
    corny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭corny


    CowboyDreams wrote: »
    If they did away with the provincial's It would be a different sotry. dublin and donegal wouldn't have been near the 1/4 finals. Dublin have had it too easy in the leinsters for the past few years and it shows they dont deserve to be in the 1/4's. how many have they won in the last 5 years? ;)

    In the last 5 years Tyrone (twice), Kerry (twice) and Mayo (very very lucky) have knocked Dublin out of the championship. Hardly fair to condemn them to mediocrity, Tyrone and Kerry are bloody good teams. You're overreacting. Dublin are what they are second best to Tyrone and Kerry and near enough on a par with everyone (including Cork) else.


  • #13
    L1m1tless
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    Thay hadn't lost a game yes. But they had it handy until then. then look what happens when they come up against a real team. Same thing last year.

    Do away with the provincials. It would be better for the game


  • #14
    L1m1tless
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    corny wrote: »
    In the last 5 years Tyrone (twice), Kerry (twice) and Mayo (very very lucky) have knocked Dublin out of the championship. Hardly fair to condemn them to mediocrity, Tyrone and Kerry are bloody good teams. You're overreacting. Dublin are what they are second best to Tyrone and Kerry and near enough on a par with everyone (including Cork) else.

    Dublin fans have the illusion that they are a decent team. Easy draws for them till the 1/4's every year. Kildare will hammer them next year for the leinster and should have beaten them this year also.

    Dubs are too confident for their own good. 17 points nuff said ;)


  • #15
    L1m1tless
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    flahavaj wrote: »
    What do you sugest? Open draw? How would that be any fairer? Dublin could draw Kerry in the first round, while a middle of the road team could get a handy run all the way to the final. No system is perfect.

    not if a seeding system is in place


  • #16
    corny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭corny


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Plenty of people on other threads here doing it.

    Heres one for a start, just top prove I'm not "making it up" as you so blithely put it.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61434067&postcount=30

    Internet warriors? Please.


  • #17
    AIR-AUSSIE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭AIR-AUSSIE


    flahavaj wrote: »
    What do you sugest? Open draw? How would that be any fairer? Dublin could draw Kerry in the first round, while a middle of the road team could get a handy run all the way to the final. No system is perfect.

    I think a world cup style All-ireland with a group stage where the two teams with the most points in the group qualify etc. then knock out would help improve matters rather then just a straight knock out. Gives smaller times a guaranteed three games etc. There could even be an additional tournament for those counties who finish third in their group similar to how the champions league and uefa cup work.


  • #18
    ColeTrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ColeTrain


    corny wrote: »
    In the last 5 years Tyrone (twice), Kerry (twice) and Mayo (very very lucky) have knocked Dublin out of the championship. Hardly fair to condemn them to mediocrity, Tyrone and Kerry are bloody good teams. You're overreacting. Dublin are what they are second best to Tyrone and Kerry and near enough on a par with everyone (including Cork) else.


    I don't know what game you were watching mate, I think Ciaran McDonald meant to score that winning point, don't you?


  • #19
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    CowboyDreams wrote: »
    not if a seeding system is in place

    Based on what? Look at the trouble we had here in that other thread trying to decide the best teams in order. And anyway, based on their last 5 years of Leinster sucess, the Dubbs would be a high seeds and there would still; be mismatches in the quarter finals IMO. Theres only 2 or 3 truly top class teams in the country and they'll always rise to the top no matter what way you arrange the championship.


  • #20
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    corny wrote: »
    Internet warriors? Please.
    Do I really have to point out the delicious irony of your criticising other people for posting their opinions on the internet via the medium of the internet. Brilliant.


  • #21
    corny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭corny


    ColeTrain wrote: »
    I don't know what game you were watching mate, I think Ciaran McDonald meant to score that winning point, don't you?

    Ah don't get me wrong Mayo were terrific on the day (apart from the warm up). But i remember Whelan and Brogan clashing heads, going off, the dominant Shane Ryan going to corner back in a reshuffle and Dublin falling apart as a result. Saying Dublin were very very unlucky is probably more accurate though.


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  • #22
    L1m1tless
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 2,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1m1tless


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Based on what? Look at the trouble we had here in that other thread trying to decide the best teams in order. And anyway, based on their last 5 years of Leinster sucess, the Dubbs would be a high seeds and there would still; be mismatches in the quarter finals IMO. Theres only 2 or 3 truly top class teams in the country and they'll always rise to the top no matter what way you arrange the championship.

    They wouldn't be seeded as high as you think. If you weighted their wins against the strength of their opposition they wouldnt be in the top 5. They are 5th at best this year too.

    Im not saying the top teams woulnt rise to the top. Im just very dissapointed in Dublins performance today. And saturdays match too, totally one sided and frankly, boring to watch.


  • #23
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    CowboyDreams wrote: »
    They wouldn't be seeded as high as you think. If you weighted their wins against the strength of their opposition they wouldnt be in the top 5. They are 5th at best this year too.

    Im not saying the top teams woulnt rise to the top. Im just very dissapointed in Dublins performance today. And saturdays match too, totally one sided and frankly, boring to watch.

    If they were seeded somewhere between 5 and 8 they'd have ended up playing a Kerry or Tyrone anyway in the quarters anyway, giving exactly the same result you're now complaining about!

    As I've said before theres only a small handful of top class teams around and history has shown they'll be there or thereabouts, regardless of the route they take or the system used. Changing the system to an open draw won't alter that in any way, shape or form.


  • #24
    corny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭corny


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Do I really have to point out the delicious irony of your criticising other people for posting their opinions on the internet via the medium of the internet. Brilliant.

    No but you'll run into a tonne more bull**** on these pages than you would from real GAA people. I was at the match, talked to a hundred different people yet the first i heard of rustiness as an excuse was from you.


  • #25
    ColeTrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ColeTrain


    corny wrote: »
    Ah don't get me wrong Mayo were terrific on the day (apart from the warm up). But i remember Whelan and Brogan clashing heads, going off, the dominant Shane Ryan going to corner back in a reshuffle and Dublin falling apart as a result. Saying Dublin were very very unlucky is probably more accurate though.

    We got to ye with that stunt at the start, Dublin should have just gone to the Canal end and concentrated on the game ahead.
    If Dublin had a better free taker you would have got a draw, Vaughan missed two chances at the end ( also got his nose broke from a Mayo Ultra in a nightclub after the game! )

    Best game of football I was ever at though just for sheer excitement and have nothing but good time for Dublin supporters after, they took their beating to be fair.


  • #26
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    corny wrote: »
    No but you'll run into a tonne more bull**** on these pages than you would from real GAA people. I was at the match, talked to a hundred different people yet the first i heard of rustiness as an excuse was from you.
    And yet you came straight onto an internet forum to talk about it afterwards, despite us not being "real GAA people" like yourself and your 100 friends. Good lad.:rolleyes:

    Anyhow back on topic, who'd be number 1 seed at the moment, Tyrone or Kerry in an open draw?


  • #27
    corny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭corny


    ColeTrain wrote: »
    We got to ye with that stunt at the start, Dublin should have just gone to the Canal end and concentrated on the game ahead.
    If Dublin had a better free taker you would have got a draw, Vaughan missed two chances at the end ( also got his nose broke from a Mayo Ultra in a nightclub after the game! )

    Best game of football I was ever at though just for sheer excitement and have nothing but good time for Dublin supporters after, they took their beating to be fair.

    Absolutely. Paul Casey got involved in that nonsense at the start and for the first 20 minutes Alan Dillon ran riot on him. That toerag Derryman you had in charge knew what he was doing alright:)

    Its the most disappointed i've ever been after a match so i can just imagine how the Mayo lads felt.


  • #28
    corny
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,849 ✭✭✭corny


    flahavaj wrote: »
    And yet you came straight onto an internet forum to talk about it afterwards, despite us not being "real GAA people" like yourself and your 100 friends. Good lad.:rolleyes:

    Anyhow back on topic, who'd be number 1 seed at the moment, Tyrone or Kerry in an open draw?

    There's no need for the sarcasm. You made the broad generalisation "the Dubs are laughably blaming the long lay off for their lack of sharpness". I'm simply telling you thats woefully inaccurate for the vast majority of Dublin supporters. Its not the first time we've lost to Kerry. If you want to stand by your rash statement then maybe you didn't make it up maybe you're just naive.

    Anyway now you can get back to your topic.


  • #29
    flahavaj
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,235 ✭✭✭✭flahavaj


    corny wrote: »
    There's no need for the sarcasm. You made the broad generalisation "the Dubs are laughably blaming the long lay off for their lack of sharpness". I'm simply telling you thats woefully inaccurate for the vast majority of Dublin supporters. Its not the first time we've lost to Kerry. If you want to stand by your rash statement then maybe you didn't make it up maybe you're just naive.

    Anyway now you can get back to your topic.

    I was only going by posts I'd read here lad, take it easy. Thanks for the benefit of your experience, but I can only react to what I've read on the site. And if you don't like broad generalisations,maybe you should reconsider branding people you yourself are debating with on the internet "keyboard warriors" and not "real GAA people." ;)


  • #30
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,304 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    corny wrote: »
    Absolutely. Paul Casey got involved in that nonsense at the start and for the first 20 minutes Alan Dillon ran riot on him. That toerag Derryman you had in charge knew what he was doing alright:)

    Its the most disappointed i've ever been after a match so i can just imagine how the Mayo lads felt.

    I read it had nothing to with Moran or Morrison, it was a players decision.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • #31
    soundsham
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,848 ✭✭✭soundsham


    as usual as soon as it comes to time to man up for the serious part of the competition this point gets dragged up,
    always a moan used by the losers imo
    teams that are good enough always find a way and the format is irrelevant, every one knows the two roads in front of them at the start of the year, and its pretty much the same for everyone.


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