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plasmaguy

Five reasons provincial winners tend to do badly in the AI apart from Kerry and Tyrone.

1. You learn more from a defeat than a victory. Provincial winners don't get to learn anything along the way.

2. You learn who are the form players and who are consistent the more games you play

3. Competitive match practise gives you an edge and you hit the ground running

4. It takes you a few minutes to get back to the pace of championship football once you have a rest

5. Losing teams have a greater desire and hunger than teams who have won provincial championships.

This year proved once and for all that Dublin are better off losing Leinster next year, as it seems Kerry are losing Munster.

themandan6611

plasmaguy wrote: »

Five reasons provincial winners tend to do badly in the AI apart from Kerry and Tyrone.

1. You learn more from a defeat than a victory. Provincial winners don't get to learn anything along the way.

2. You learn who are the form players and who are consistent the more games you play

3. Competitive match practise gives you an edge and you hit the ground running

4. It takes you a few minutes to get back to the pace of championship football once you have a rest

5. Losing teams have a greater desire and hunger than teams who have won provincial championships.

This year proved once and for all that Dublin are better off losing Leinster next year, as it seems Kerry are losing Munster.

hasnt hurt tyrone, maybe better management and players would help dublin. form is shown in training, look at kilkenny. may not be a prob next year as kildare will leinster

corny

You could say playing matches in consecutive weeks is a big ask for the qualifiers too. All in all the cream rise to the top and for near enough a decade now thats Tyrone and Kerry. A different format won't change that.

flahavaj

Kery have reached All Irelands by both the conventional route and the qualifier route. Likewise Tyrone went the qualifier route last year but won Ulster this year. Moaning about the system is usually reserved for supporters of teams who've just been knocked out of the champoionship. If they're not good enough,the system is irrelevant. Donegal and Wicklow would claim the tiredness of playing weekly qualifiers cost them ultimately, while now the Dubs are laughably blaming the long lay off for their lack of sharpness.

Bottom line, you'll never please everyone but the really good teams generally get to the latter stages of the championship, while those not good enough generally don't. End of.

L1m1tless

Surely 2 teams in the 1/4 finals should be a closer match up than we saw today and saturday. 16-17 points easy victories. The current format does need revision alright.

flahavaj

CowboyDreams wrote: »

Surely 2 teams in the 1/4 finals should be a closer match up than we saw today and saturday. 16-17 points easy victories. The current format does need revision alright.

The system isn't to blame for this though. In one game the Leinster champions were hammered by a qualifier, while in the other the Munster champions hammered a qualifier.

corny

flahavaj wrote: »

while now the Dubs are laughably blaming the long lay off for their lack of sharpness.

Not this Dub and not any i've talked to. Think you made that up.

L1m1tless

If they did away with the provincial's It would be a different sotry. dublin and donegal wouldn't have been near the 1/4 finals. Dublin have had it too easy in the leinsters for the past few years and it shows they dont deserve to be in the 1/4's. how many have they won in the last 5 years?

damnyanks

well since they hadnt lost a game up until today they have more rights then any other team to be there.

I'd say change the format so it doesnt allow moaning from teams who won provincials but lose to a back door boy to arise

flahavaj

corny wrote: »

Not this Dub and not any i've talked to. Think you made that up.

Plenty of people on other threads here doing it.

Heres one for a start, just top prove I'm not "making it up" as you so blithely put it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61434067&postcount=30

flahavaj

CowboyDreams wrote: »

If they did away with the provincial's It would be a different sotry. dublin and donegal wouldn't have been near the 1/4 finals. Dublin have had it too easy in the leinsters for the past few years and it shows they dont deserve to be in the 1/4's. how many have they won in the last 5 years?

What do you sugest? Open draw? How would that be any fairer? Dublin could draw Kerry in the first round, while a middle of the road team could get a handy run all the way to the final. No system is perfect.

corny

CowboyDreams wrote: »

If they did away with the provincial's It would be a different sotry. dublin and donegal wouldn't have been near the 1/4 finals. Dublin have had it too easy in the leinsters for the past few years and it shows they dont deserve to be in the 1/4's. how many have they won in the last 5 years?

In the last 5 years Tyrone (twice), Kerry (twice) and Mayo (very very lucky) have knocked Dublin out of the championship. Hardly fair to condemn them to mediocrity, Tyrone and Kerry are bloody good teams. You're overreacting. Dublin are what they are second best to Tyrone and Kerry and near enough on a par with everyone (including Cork) else.

L1m1tless

Thay hadn't lost a game yes. But they had it handy until then. then look what happens when they come up against a real team. Same thing last year.

Do away with the provincials. It would be better for the game

L1m1tless

corny wrote: »

In the last 5 years Tyrone (twice), Kerry (twice) and Mayo (very very lucky) have knocked Dublin out of the championship. Hardly fair to condemn them to mediocrity, Tyrone and Kerry are bloody good teams. You're overreacting. Dublin are what they are second best to Tyrone and Kerry and near enough on a par with everyone (including Cork) else.

Dublin fans have the illusion that they are a decent team. Easy draws for them till the 1/4's every year. Kildare will hammer them next year for the leinster and should have beaten them this year also.

Dubs are too confident for their own good. 17 points nuff said

L1m1tless

flahavaj wrote: »

What do you sugest? Open draw? How would that be any fairer? Dublin could draw Kerry in the first round, while a middle of the road team could get a handy run all the way to the final. No system is perfect.

not if a seeding system is in place

corny

flahavaj wrote: »

Plenty of people on other threads here doing it.

Heres one for a start, just top prove I'm not "making it up" as you so blithely put it.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61434067&postcount=30

Internet warriors? Please.

AIR-AUSSIE

flahavaj wrote: »

What do you sugest? Open draw? How would that be any fairer? Dublin could draw Kerry in the first round, while a middle of the road team could get a handy run all the way to the final. No system is perfect.

I think a world cup style All-ireland with a group stage where the two teams with the most points in the group qualify etc. then knock out would help improve matters rather then just a straight knock out. Gives smaller times a guaranteed three games etc. There could even be an additional tournament for those counties who finish third in their group similar to how the champions league and uefa cup work.

ColeTrain

corny wrote: »

In the last 5 years Tyrone (twice), Kerry (twice) and Mayo (very very lucky) have knocked Dublin out of the championship. Hardly fair to condemn them to mediocrity, Tyrone and Kerry are bloody good teams. You're overreacting. Dublin are what they are second best to Tyrone and Kerry and near enough on a par with everyone (including Cork) else.

I don't know what game you were watching mate, I think Ciaran McDonald meant to score that winning point, don't you?

flahavaj

CowboyDreams wrote: »

not if a seeding system is in place

Based on what? Look at the trouble we had here in that other thread trying to decide the best teams in order. And anyway, based on their last 5 years of Leinster sucess, the Dubbs would be a high seeds and there would still; be mismatches in the quarter finals IMO. Theres only 2 or 3 truly top class teams in the country and they'll always rise to the top no matter what way you arrange the championship.

flahavaj

corny wrote: »

Internet warriors? Please.

Do I really have to point out the delicious irony of your criticising other people for posting their opinions on the internet via the medium of the internet. Brilliant.

corny

ColeTrain wrote: »

I don't know what game you were watching mate, I think Ciaran McDonald meant to score that winning point, don't you?

Ah don't get me wrong Mayo were terrific on the day (apart from the warm up). But i remember Whelan and Brogan clashing heads, going off, the dominant Shane Ryan going to corner back in a reshuffle and Dublin falling apart as a result. Saying Dublin were very very unlucky is probably more accurate though.

L1m1tless

flahavaj wrote: »

Based on what? Look at the trouble we had here in that other thread trying to decide the best teams in order. And anyway, based on their last 5 years of Leinster sucess, the Dubbs would be a high seeds and there would still; be mismatches in the quarter finals IMO. Theres only 2 or 3 truly top class teams in the country and they'll always rise to the top no matter what way you arrange the championship.

They wouldn't be seeded as high as you think. If you weighted their wins against the strength of their opposition they wouldnt be in the top 5. They are 5th at best this year too.

Im not saying the top teams woulnt rise to the top. Im just very dissapointed in Dublins performance today. And saturdays match too, totally one sided and frankly, boring to watch.

flahavaj

CowboyDreams wrote: »

They wouldn't be seeded as high as you think. If you weighted their wins against the strength of their opposition they wouldnt be in the top 5. They are 5th at best this year too.

Im not saying the top teams woulnt rise to the top. Im just very dissapointed in Dublins performance today. And saturdays match too, totally one sided and frankly, boring to watch.

If they were seeded somewhere between 5 and 8 they'd have ended up playing a Kerry or Tyrone anyway in the quarters anyway, giving exactly the same result you're now complaining about!

As I've said before theres only a small handful of top class teams around and history has shown they'll be there or thereabouts, regardless of the route they take or the system used. Changing the system to an open draw won't alter that in any way, shape or form.

corny

flahavaj wrote: »

Do I really have to point out the delicious irony of your criticising other people for posting their opinions on the internet via the medium of the internet. Brilliant.

No but you'll run into a tonne more bull**** on these pages than you would from real GAA people. I was at the match, talked to a hundred different people yet the first i heard of rustiness as an excuse was from you.

ColeTrain

corny wrote: »

Ah don't get me wrong Mayo were terrific on the day (apart from the warm up). But i remember Whelan and Brogan clashing heads, going off, the dominant Shane Ryan going to corner back in a reshuffle and Dublin falling apart as a result. Saying Dublin were very very unlucky is probably more accurate though.

We got to ye with that stunt at the start, Dublin should have just gone to the Canal end and concentrated on the game ahead.
If Dublin had a better free taker you would have got a draw, Vaughan missed two chances at the end ( also got his nose broke from a Mayo Ultra in a nightclub after the game! )

Best game of football I was ever at though just for sheer excitement and have nothing but good time for Dublin supporters after, they took their beating to be fair.

flahavaj

corny wrote: »

No but you'll run into a tonne more bull**** on these pages than you would from real GAA people. I was at the match, talked to a hundred different people yet the first i heard of rustiness as an excuse was from you.

And yet you came straight onto an internet forum to talk about it afterwards, despite us not being "real GAA people" like yourself and your 100 friends. Good lad.:rolleyes:

Anyhow back on topic, who'd be number 1 seed at the moment, Tyrone or Kerry in an open draw?

corny

ColeTrain wrote: »

We got to ye with that stunt at the start, Dublin should have just gone to the Canal end and concentrated on the game ahead.
If Dublin had a better free taker you would have got a draw, Vaughan missed two chances at the end ( also got his nose broke from a Mayo Ultra in a nightclub after the game! )

Best game of football I was ever at though just for sheer excitement and have nothing but good time for Dublin supporters after, they took their beating to be fair.

Absolutely. Paul Casey got involved in that nonsense at the start and for the first 20 minutes Alan Dillon ran riot on him. That toerag Derryman you had in charge knew what he was doing alright:)

Its the most disappointed i've ever been after a match so i can just imagine how the Mayo lads felt.

corny

flahavaj wrote: »

And yet you came straight onto an internet forum to talk about it afterwards, despite us not being "real GAA people" like yourself and your 100 friends. Good lad.:rolleyes:

Anyhow back on topic, who'd be number 1 seed at the moment, Tyrone or Kerry in an open draw?

There's no need for the sarcasm. You made the broad generalisation "the Dubs are laughably blaming the long lay off for their lack of sharpness". I'm simply telling you thats woefully inaccurate for the vast majority of Dublin supporters. Its not the first time we've lost to Kerry. If you want to stand by your rash statement then maybe you didn't make it up maybe you're just naive.

Anyway now you can get back to your topic.

flahavaj

corny wrote: »

There's no need for the sarcasm. You made the broad generalisation "the Dubs are laughably blaming the long lay off for their lack of sharpness". I'm simply telling you thats woefully inaccurate for the vast majority of Dublin supporters. Its not the first time we've lost to Kerry. If you want to stand by your rash statement then maybe you didn't make it up maybe you're just naive.

Anyway now you can get back to your topic.

I was only going by posts I'd read here lad, take it easy. Thanks for the benefit of your experience, but I can only react to what I've read on the site. And if you don't like broad generalisations,maybe you should reconsider branding people you yourself are debating with on the internet "keyboard warriors" and not "real GAA people."

K-9

corny wrote: »

Absolutely. Paul Casey got involved in that nonsense at the start and for the first 20 minutes Alan Dillon ran riot on him. That toerag Derryman you had in charge knew what he was doing alright:)

Its the most disappointed i've ever been after a match so i can just imagine how the Mayo lads felt.

I read it had nothing to with Moran or Morrison, it was a players decision.

soundsham

as usual as soon as it comes to time to man up for the serious part of the competition this point gets dragged up,
always a moan used by the losers imo
teams that are good enough always find a way and the format is irrelevant, every one knows the two roads in front of them at the start of the year, and its pretty much the same for everyone.

Poulgorm

The only variation I would consider introducing is that the qualifiers should be confined to the provinces. I.E one unbeaten team would go straight through to the provincial final. A qualifier system (within the province) would determine who their opponents in the provincial final would be. The all Ireland would then be between the 4 provincial winners.

The provincial finals would mean something then

I think the principal of the qualifiers is good. Before this, a team could play the first round in May and, if beaten, would not have an inter county game again until the league in October. This is no good for the weaker counties.

Watch how Wicklow will do in the league, after their championship run. Bet they will win promotion.

spongeman

So how come 3 of the 4 provincial winners got through then ? The problem is Dublin need a new manager from outside the county, not a change in the system. They have home advantage and good players, they just need a different mindset.

Coming from Wicklow I should know about that. Its all in the mind.

Poulgorm

I think that this is the first year that 3 out of the 4 provincial winners got through to the semis. Pat Spillane had figures that only a quarter get through most years.

rossie1977

plasmaguy wrote: »

1. You learn more from a defeat than a victory. Provincial winners don't get to learn anything along the way.

5. Losing teams have a greater desire and hunger than teams who have won provincial championships.

right, lets have a look at dublins results when they lost in leinster and went through the qualifiers

2004
Dublin beaten in leinster by westmeath, lose to munster champions kerry in the quarters 1-15 to 1-8, kerry the munster champions go on to win the all-ireland hammering mayo in the final

2003
Dublin beaten in leinster by laois, beaten by armagh in qualifiers by 15 points to 11

2001
Dublin lose to meath in leinster final, lose to munster champions kerry in quarter final

spongeman

Good points there.

For the population they have the Dubs should be doing better.

alrudd

Poulgorm wrote: »

I think that this is the first year that 3 out of the 4 provincial winners got through to the semis. Pat Spillane had figures that only a quarter get through most years.

Mayo aint through yet though.Its a fact that at least 1 of the provencial winners since the new system was brought in get knocked out in the quarter finals.

John The Bad

plasmaguy wrote: »

Five reasons provincial winners tend to do badly in the AI apart from Kerry and Tyrone.

1. You learn more from a defeat than a victory. Provincial winners don't get to learn anything along the way.

2. You learn who are the form players and who are consistent the more games you play

3. Competitive match practise gives you an edge and you hit the ground running

4. It takes you a few minutes to get back to the pace of championship football once you have a rest

5. Losing teams have a greater desire and hunger than teams who have won provincial championships.

This year proved once and for all that Dublin are better off losing Leinster next year, as it seems Kerry are losing Munster.

I don't really agree with these points. And I think you left out the one glaring problem with the current setup -- the provincial champions are the only teams who don't get a second chance if they lose a match.

grenache

I have 2 problems with football qualifiers.


Firstly, the time difference in how long the beaten provincial finalists have to wait to play in the qualifiers is a joke. Antrim had to face Kerry only 6 days after losing the Ulster final to Tyrone. That is most unfair as it did not give Antrim sufficient recovery time to be either mentally or physicaly prepared for Kerry. 6 days is too short a space between games. Limerick on the other hand had 4 weeks to wait for their qualifier and this too is equally ludicrious. The drawn Wexford-Roscommon game was largely to blame for this as Meath had to wait an extra week to find out who they would play in round 3. But making Limerick having to wait 4 weeks is practically as bad as making Antrim play after 6 days, it leaves them rusty and not up to match speed. Limerick looked totally off the pace last Saturday nite and i would propose that the 4 week lay-off played a significant role in this. Beaten provincial finalists should have a minimum 2 week, maximum 3 week gap between the final and their qualifier game.


Secondly, there should be no replays. All games should be decided on the day/night. They should go to extra time and even golden points if needs be. The scenario where a couple of drawn games holds up the championship for weeks on end must not be allowed to come about.

John The Bad

grenache wrote: »

I have 2 problems with football qualifiers.


Firstly, the time difference in how long the beaten provincial finalists have to wait to play in the qualifiers is a joke. Antrim had to face Kerry only 6 days after losing the Ulster final to Tyrone. That is most unfair as it did not give Antrim sufficient recovery time to be either mentally or physicaly prepared for Kerry. 6 days is too short a space between games. Limerick on the other hand had 4 weeks to wait for their qualifier and this too is equally ludicrious. The drawn Wexford-Roscommon game was largely to blame for this as Meath had to wait an extra week to find out who they would play in round 3. But making Limerick having to wait 4 weeks is practically as bad as making Antrim play after 6 days, it leaves them rusty and not up to match speed. Limerick looked totally off the pace last Saturday nite and i would propose that the 4 week lay-off played a significant role in this. Beaten provincial finalists should have a minimum 2 week, maximum 3 week gap between the final and their qualifier game.


Secondly, there should be no replays. All games should be decided on the day/night. They should go to extra time and even golden points if needs be. The scenario where a couple of drawn games holds up the championship for weeks on end must not be allowed to come about.

Some good points here but again you're leaving out the most glaringly obvious problem -- the provincial champions are the only teams who do not get a second chance.

K-9

John The Bad wrote: »

Some good points here but again you're leaving out the most glaringly obvious problem -- the provincial champions are the only teams who do not get a second chance.

True, but how you fix that is the problem. Can't think of an easy fix for it.

JazzyJ

To be honest I think Mondays game was just one of those games where one of the teams doesn't bother to turn up and the other team plays exceptionally well. You just have to look at Cork/Donegal the day before. In both cases I don't think that there would be that much of a difference on an average day.


OT:

ColeTrain wrote: »

We got to ye with that stunt at the start, Dublin should have just gone to the Canal end and concentrated on the game ahead.

No you didn't. We raced into a 7 point lead at the start of the game. How is that getting to us? A great comeback after that though. Feckers :pac:

busbybhoy

If teams end up having big time gaps between games why dont they organise friendlies; sorry of course i meant "challenges" with other teams in a simliar situation?

The obvious downside of this is the risk of injury to key players due to the physical nature of the game but if its game time they need it has to be an option.

I witnessed Kerry warming up from about 50 yards away before the '06final and i couldnt believe the intensity and physicality of the warm up where as Mayo looked like they were about to take to the stage for Swan Lake (And yes i am from mayo)

busbybhoy

JazzyJ wrote: »

To be honest I think Mondays game was just one of those games where one of the teams doesn't bother to turn up and the other team plays exceptionally well. You just have to look at Cork/Donegal the day before. In both cases I don't think that there would be that much of a difference on an average day.


OT:



No you didn't. We raced into a 7 point lead at the start of the game. How is that getting to us? A great comeback after that though. Feckers :pac:

Ye tend to race to a 5/7 point lead against most teams....Kerry had the right approach at the weekend by playing ye at your own game in the first 10. I honestly think that Dublin are nowhere near as bad as they played but i also believe that Kerry peaked last weekend. They went from 2nd to 5th gear between their last 2 games. Hopefully the gearbox will pack in and they will get stuck in 3rd for the next game

As for the "antics" in front of the hill, i have no doubt that it affected some of the Dublin players over the 70 mins.

jj72

No you didn't. We raced into a 7 point lead at the start of the game. How is that getting to us? A great comeback after that though. Feckers :pac:[/quote]


im afraid we did! it was actually Mayo who raced into the early lead but you guys got two goal midway through the match......it was then we got lucky

Carawaystick

grenache wrote: »

I have 2 problems with football qualifiers.


Firstly, the time difference in how long the beaten provincial finalists have to wait to play in the qualifiers is a joke. Antrim had to face Kerry only 6 days after losing the Ulster final to Tyrone. That is most unfair as it did not give Antrim sufficient recovery time to be either mentally or physicaly prepared for Kerry. 6 days is too short a space between games. Limerick on the other hand had 4 weeks to wait for their qualifier and this too is equally ludicrious. The drawn Wexford-Roscommon game was largely to blame for this as Meath had to wait an extra week to find out who they would play in round 3. But making Limerick having to wait 4 weeks is practically as bad as making Antrim play after 6 days, it leaves them rusty and not up to match speed. Limerick looked totally off the pace last Saturday nite and i would propose that the 4 week lay-off played a significant role in this. Beaten provincial finalists should have a minimum 2 week, maximum 3 week gap between the final and their qualifier game.


Secondly, there should be no replays. All games should be decided on the day/night. They should go to extra time and even golden points if needs be. The scenario where a couple of drawn games holds up the championship for weeks on end must not be allowed to come about.

The provincial councils are to blame for the delays n provicnial finals. the Conacht championship started on the 10th of May, yet the final was the 21st of July.
Leinster started after them and finished before them.

The change I'd make to the qualifiers would eb to schedule a break after round two and a fortnight between the last round and AI 1/4 finals. expecting teams to play 5 or 6 weekends in a row is not on in a competition where Mayo need only play 5 matches from May to September to win the AI.

ColeTrain

JazzyJ wrote: »

OT:



No you didn't. We raced into a 7 point lead at the start of the game. How is that getting to us? A great comeback after that though. Feckers :pac:

OT:

Yes we did mate :P

premierstone

Carawaystick wrote: »

expecting teams to play 5 or 6 weekends in a row is not on in a competition where Mayo need only play 5 matches from May to September to win the AI.

Easiest way to avoid playing 5 or 6 weeks in a row?? Dont get beaten! Are you suggesting altering the system to give even further advantages to a team that has already been beaten?