Father prays daughter to death

towel401 · 02-08-2009 11:11PM

mang, i hate internet atheists

whatdoicare · 02-08-2009 11:12PM

Why waste yr time trying to understand why some people feel the need to believe in something else- You can all worship Dr. Manhattan or flying spaghetti monsters for all I care - as long as you don't be an idiot about it and exercise some cop on....That's the whole jist of the thread- what more needs to be said?:rolleyes:

Call Me Jimmy · 02-08-2009 11:12PM

I hate myself!

philologos · 02-08-2009 11:17PM

whatdoicare wrote: »

Why waste yr time trying to understand why some people feel the need to believe in something else- You can all worship Dr. Manhattan or flying spaghetti monsters for all I care - as long as you don't be an idiot about it and exercise some cop on....That's the whole jist of the thread- what more needs to be said?:rolleyes:

That pretty much sums it up for me actually!

Call Me Jimmy wrote:

Homosexuality can be examined scientifically, and I have had a discussion about the nature of homosexuality without problems on this board. But if I said I think homosexuality is a choice I would expect to be challenged. How someone can feel victimised by questions about their opinion is beyond me.

The reality is that scientifically we don't know how people are homosexual currently. I wish people would stop pretending that we actually do.

You say that "if you think that homosexuality is a choice I would expect to be challenged". By extension would you expect to be challenged if you said that homosexuality was biologically predetermined? Just curious.

As for questions about opinions, I agree with you. My faith has been strengthened by some of my encounters with atheists (both on and off boards) because it has encouraged me to examine what I believe in more closely. Hopefully I've been of some assistance to some of you too :pac:

Call Me Jimmy · 02-08-2009 11:22PM

Jakkass wrote: »

You say that "if you think that homosexuality is a choice I would expect to be challenged". By extension would you expect to be challenged if you said that homosexuality was biologically predetermined? Just curious.

Defo if the other person doesn't agree!

dvpower · 02-08-2009 11:46PM

Jakkass wrote: »

The reality is that scientifically we don't know how people are homosexual currently. I wish people would stop pretending that we actually do.

At the same time, I've never met a gay person who say they made a decision to be gay.

Jakkass wrote: »

You say that "if you think that homosexuality is a choice I would expect to be challenged". By extension would you expect to be challenged if you said that homosexuality was biologically predetermined? Just curious.

It one was to accept that homosexuality was biologically predetermined it would seem unfair to ridicule them for their condition, much like it would be unfair to ridicule someone for their skin colour or height or left-handedness.

But religious beliefs are choices and they are open to question (and ridicule, if merited); Just like someone who chooses to support a particular political party or football team or band.

philologos · 02-08-2009 11:51PM

dvpower wrote: »

At the same time, I've never met a gay person who say they made a decision to be gay.

Should we determine scientific fact based on peoples opinions or should we base it on research?

dvpower wrote: »

It one was to accept that homosexuality was biologically predetermined it would seem unfair to ridicule them for their condition, much like it would be

unfair to ridicule someone for their skin colour or height or left-handedness.

You do realise one can criticise an opinion without resorting to ridicule?

dvpower wrote: »

But religious beliefs are choices and they are open to question (and ridicule, if merited); Just like someone who chooses to support a particular political party or football team or band.

Indeed, religious beliefs are choices. However, I consider Christianity to be as much a part of my identity as homosexuality would be to someone else. Mind you at the same time, I don't consider heterosexuality to be a huge part of my identity at all. I guess people identify themselves in different ways. The notion of a whole community basing themselves around their sexuality also seems somewhat alien to me.

If for the sake of argument homosexuality was biologically predetermined in the same way as race is. I still don't feel much need to identify as being white, or join a white pride community.

Turtwig · 02-08-2009 11:57PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think it makes me any closer to becoming an atheist :pac:. I think people should learn to understand it and read the Bible for themselves instead of trusting other people entirely to tell them. I also value religious community too though.

It does actually, you're no longer just living by intrepretating the ancient text that's a start. Then after that you state it as being the absolute truth now which is it?

@Procure, why can't we debate religion? we debate political parties, favourite teams, foods etc so what makes religon any different?

philologos · 03-08-2009 12:04AM

Malty_T wrote: »

It does actually, you're no longer just living by intrepretating the ancient text that's a start. Then after that you state it as being the absolute truth now which is it?

I'm basing my view on prayer based on my experience and from what I have read in the Scriptures for myself. It's something that has been with us since the Reformation. As for my view of the Bible, I believe it to be an accurate depiction of mankind's relationship with God throughout the ages.

In All Fairness · 03-08-2009 12:19AM

Heh Jakkass. Just a couple of things. Is it not a bit hypocritical of the Bible to be condemning drunkenness if Jesus is turning water into wine at a wedding that's already gone on for six days? Also I don't agree with your suggestion that God didn't answer this man's prayers. He prayed for God to save his daughter and God through science provided medicine and hospitals and if this man can't appreciate God's answers that's not God's fault. Also, are prayers of petition not sinful as they imply that God's creation and plan is imperfect? Hope you're keeping well btw.

Turtwig · 03-08-2009 12:26AM

In All Fairness wrote: »

Is it not a bit hypocritical of the Bible to be condemning drunkenness if Jesus is turning water into wine at a wedding that's already gone on for six days?

Wow was it really that long I'd forgotten, then again I guess all one has to ask is what was a day...it was supposedly longer than today!!:eek:

Orizio · 03-08-2009 12:28AM

Jakkass wrote: »

This is based on the assumption that prayer is always answered. I think God can also say no.

My mind is made up. God will intervene if it is in accordance with His will.

...and how do we understand 'His will', considering the many many interpretations we may make of the Bible, (or the Torah, or the Qu'ran). Makes praying a rather futile exercise unless we have in depth knowledge of what God himself believes.

philologos · 03-08-2009 12:28AM

In All Fairness wrote: »

Heh Jakkass. Just a couple of things. Is it not a bit hypocritical of the Bible to be condemning drunkenness if Jesus is turning water into wine at a wedding that's already gone on for six days? Also I don't agree with your suggestion that God didn't answer this man's prayers. He prayed for God to save his daughter and God through science provided medicine and hospitals and if this man can't appreciate God's answers that's not God's fault. Also, are prayers of petition not sinful as they imply that God's creation and plan is imperfect? Hope you're keeping well btw.

Nice to see you back In All Fairness

1. Don't you think there would be enough time in 6 days to sober up before receiving more to drink? To hold to this view that Jesus was facilitating drunkenness rather than responsible drinking is making assumptions onto the text that we cannot possibly know about.

2. You don't have to agree with my suggestion. I also alluded to the fact that God could work through hospitals.

3. Prayers of petition being sinful. That's a tricky one. God's creation became imperfect after the fall of humanity. Sin and death had entered the world through this fall (Romans 5:12). Mankind had erred and had become separated from God through their sinfulness. (Isaiah 59:2). Prayers primary purpose is to give us the peace of God's understanding (Philippians 4:7). The Biblical text also encourages us to bring our grievances before God so that we may receive this peace. The Biblical text also tells us that we should speak to God as one would speak to a friend (Exodus 33:11), so I guess the question is when speaking to a friend would you ever speak about what is troubling you at a given time? Or would you ask a friend for assistance?

I hope you're keeping well too

philologos · 03-08-2009 12:36AM

Orizio wrote: »

...and how do we understand 'His will', considering the many many interpretations we may make of the Bible, (or the Torah, or the Qu'ran). Makes praying a rather futile exercise unless we have in depth knowledge of what God himself believes.

We can't fully understand God's will. His ways are higher than ours. We have been offered a limited understanding of God through the Bible, but the Bible only explains so much, and is written in human terms. We would have to become gods ourselves to fully understand God's will on His level.

I yet have to see why prayer is a futile exercise however. I personally don't think ideal prayer is coming to God with a whole list of things saying I want this, this and this. As a child, I prayed selfish prayers to God due to my lack of understanding to him, as I've grown up however, I realize that God is infinitely more than someone who just answers our every whim and demand. He's a God of justice and a God of mercy first and foremost.

Prayer is communication with God, as one enters into a relationship.

procure11 · 03-08-2009 12:38AM

Malty_T wrote: »

It does actually, you're no longer just living by intrepretating the ancient text that's a start. Then after that you state it as being the absolute truth now which is it?

@Procure, why can't we debate religion? we debate political parties, favourite teams, foods etc so what makes religon any different?[/quote]

Malty...I never said we couldn't debate on religion...far from it,I personally feel it is very healthy to debate all issues.

If you read my post,you would notice I said I agreed with freedom of speech.My main concern is that on most threads on Boards,posters are almost given a licence to make derogatory remarks about God and religious people ...in most cases to a level of impunity.
Same cannot be said about people who hold negative views on for eg homosexuality.Immediately anyone makes any remark against homosexuality there would be a vitriol of comments and sadly usually supported by some Mods.

Like you,I suppose everyone has their preferences/ideology/views on contentious issues,but when it seems that any opposition or contrary view to the most popular one is consistently villified and subsequently banned ...that cannot be regarded as a debate.

dvpower · 03-08-2009 12:52AM

Jakkass wrote: »

Should we determine scientific fact based on peoples opinions or should we base it on research?

Interesting response from a Christian. But I do think that we should determine scientific fact based on scientific method.

Whatever about the science, the point stands; gay people don't report that they chose their sexuality, they don't feel like they have a choice in the matter. Religious people choose their beliefs; they consciously make the decision.

Jakkass wrote: »

You do realise one can criticise an opinion without resorting to ridicule?

Sure. I'm not generally in favour of ridicule, but it serves it purpose. I do think that many Christian beliefs are ridiculous but I'm conflicted on whether or not to ridicule them or not.

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, religious beliefs are choices. However, I consider Christianity to be as much a part of my identity as homosexuality would be to someone else. Mind you at the same time, I don't consider heterosexuality to be a huge part of my identity at all. I guess people identify themselves in different ways. The notion of a whole community basing themselves around their sexuality also seems somewhat alien to me.

If for the sake of argument homosexuality was biologically predetermined in the same way as race is. I still don't feel much need to identify as being white, or join a white pride community.

I guess people sometimes identify thenselves depending on what sets them apart. For serious Christians, it their Christianity, for gay people its their sexual orientation.

WesternNight · 03-08-2009 01:17AM

"God will intervene if it's in accordance with His will"

"We can't fully understand God's will"

"God doesn't always answer prayers the way we want the prayers to be answered"

Sorry, but that's just too handy a catch-all for me.

As for the original post, I think it's incredibly sad that it happened at all. It's even more sad because it doesn't surprise me all that much.

In All Fairness · 03-08-2009 01:44AM

Jakkass wrote: »

Nice to see you back In All Fairness

1. Don't you think there would be enough time in 6 days to sober up before receiving more to drink? To hold to this view that Jesus was facilitating drunkenness rather than responsible drinking is making assumptions onto the text that we cannot possibly know about.

2. You don't have to agree with my suggestion. I also alluded to the fact that God could work through hospitals.

3. Prayers of petition being sinful. That's a tricky one. God's creation became imperfect after the fall of humanity. Sin and death had entered the world through this fall (Romans 5:12). Mankind had erred and had become separated from God through their sinfulness. (Isaiah 59:2). Prayers primary purpose is to give us the peace of God's understanding (Philippians 4:7). The Biblical text also encourages us to bring our grievances before God so that we may receive this peace. The Biblical text also tells us that we should speak to God as one would speak to a friend (Exodus 33:11), so I guess the question is when speaking to a friend would you ever speak about what is troubling you at a given time? Or would you ask a friend for assistance?

I hope you're keeping well too

I'm great thanks mate. I would often speak to a friend or family member if I was in trouble or needed assistance as these people are God's greatest gift in my life and not to apply to them would be hurtful to them and God,but this is very different from believing that my prayers could/should or would have any influence with an omnipotent being whose perfection I have attested to. Surely a prayer of supplication to God is an implicit statement of lack with what he has supplied and a request to rectify his mistake.

philologos · 03-08-2009 11:08AM

In All Fairness wrote: »

I'm great thanks mate. I would often speak to a friend or family member if I was in trouble or needed assistance as these people are God's greatest gift in my life and not to apply to them would be hurtful to them and God,but this is very different from believing that my prayers could/should or would have any influence with an omnipotent being whose perfection I have attested to. Surely a prayer of supplication to God is an implicit statement of lack with what he has supplied and a request to rectify his mistake.

Sure, by talking about prayer you aren't relegating discussion to friends and family out of your life by no means.

However, as for a prayer of supplication being an implicit statement of disapproval to what God has created. That only has a limited impact when we consider that humans themselves can screw up on their own accord due to having free will. It could equally be dissatisfaction to what humanity has done.

Carrying on though, I think that God values our opinions as His creation, I don't think that He is the type of God who angers easily, infact the Bible says God is slow to anger in several places. There are even several passages of the Bible where prophets have complained to God about the state of the world, particularly in the book of Job, the Psalms, and in prophetic books such as Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

Father prays daughter to death

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