Normal brake disks V Drilled and Grooved

HashSlinging · 29-07-2009 9:53pm #1

Need to replace my front disks on the Altea I'm thinking it might be a good time to upgrade the brakes a bit, thinking of 312mm discs. Is this worthwhile, and does anyone know where could I get OEM brembo disks etc online.

Bluefoam · 29-07-2009 10:03pm

tossy · 29-07-2009 10:10pm

What size discs are on it now? what engine? it might not be as simple as just changing the discs.

Some VAG cars have the caliper carrier cast as part of the Hub so if you want to go bigger you need to change the hub to accommodate the bolt on style carrier for 288mm,312mm,344mm discs.

Its a worthwhile mod,the 312mm is a good set up i fitted them to the old golf,drilled and grooved is a little bit of overkill though on a standard car.

Seth Brundle · 29-07-2009 10:20pm

Are you looking for info on uprating the brakes (in terms of diameter) or on the differences between solid, grooved and drilled discs?

stratos · 29-07-2009 10:22pm

It may only be of use if you are braking so hard you experience brake fade. The brakes on your car turn Kinetic energy into heat.

Brake fade is actually when the braking system gets so hot the pads skate on a thin layer of brake material so hot, it turns into a liquid or a gas. The pads actually aquaplanes over the disc on a layer of superhot brake material. The grooves allows this gas to seep away and the pads can contact the disc again. The holes make more surface area available for heat to bleed into the air, and for coolig air to circulate around the disc. Bigger discs and calipers allow the brakes to take more heat on and also more surface area to radiate it away.

So if you find your experiencing that horrible sensation of brake fade a lot yes it may be worthwhile. I have experienced it on some older cars during hard driving but I think todays cars with abs etc it not so much of a problem. My two cents worth.

HashSlinging · 29-07-2009 10:34pm

kbannon wrote: »

Are you looking for info on uprating the brakes (in terms of diameter) or on the differences between solid, grooved and drilled discs?

All the above, currently driving a 2.0TDi have the standard disks on and with a remap planned for next year this might be the most economical time to get them done, want to have very good stopping power.

Anyone planning on upgrading their VRS,GTi brakes??

Bluefoam · 29-07-2009 10:59pm

Why not just get up rated brake pads? Ferodo green stuff for example.

stratos · 29-07-2009 11:03pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Why not just get up rated brake pads? Ferodo green stuff for example.

Yes a good idea I fitted greenstuff pads to a car I had which suffered from bad brake fade. It worked very well I think they may wear out a little quicker. But a simple solution.

JimmyCrackCorn! · 29-07-2009 11:45pm

How big do you want to go is it for track use or road or both?
What kind of budget?
Is it an altezza as i have no idea wtf an Altea is?

As a general rule avoid drilled disks as they are prone to cracking under heavy use and no one likes shattered break disks.:eek:

galwaytt · 30-07-2009 12:21am

JimmyCrackCorn! wrote: »

As a general rule avoid drilled disks as they are prone to cracking under heavy use and no one likes shattered break disks.:eek:

....oh dear. I bet better not take out my Porsche then....what if all the discs exploded....?? :rolleyes:

....indeed, i better write a 'strongly worded letter' to Porsche on the subject. Oh, and Brembo, too.........

tossy · 30-07-2009 12:38am

JimmyCrackCorn! wrote: »

How big do you want to go is it for track As a general rule avoid drilled disks as they are prone to cracking under heavy use and no one likes shattered break disks.:eek:

Another popular myth,i'm sure cheaper drilled discs do crack alright but decent ones wont,i have 2 piece (floating) drilled and grooved discs on the Bora with alu centres allowing the disc to expand when heated without stressing the disc.The have got some pretty heavy use inc the Nurburgring and are still in one piece.

You get what you pay for really.

stratos · 30-07-2009 12:58am

tossy wrote: »

Another popular myth,i'm sure cheaper drilled discs do crack alright but decent ones wont,i have 2 piece (floating) drilled and grooved discs on the Bora with alu centres allowing the disc to expand when heated without stressing the disc.The have got some pretty heavy use inc the Nurburgring and are still in one piece.

You get what you pay for really.

Now thats some serious brakes.

tossy · 30-07-2009 1:57am

stratos wrote: »

Now thats some serious brakes.

You got to be able to stop!

Gary ITR · 30-07-2009 2:13am

tossy wrote: »

You got to be able to stop!

Do you really need them on your 1.9tdi though?

tossy · 30-07-2009 2:53am

Red DI Onkle with a remap too right!

Neilw · 30-07-2009 5:44am

OP this is the kit you need, 345mm discs with twin piston calipers, all genuine vag parts

http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=186468

Mr.David · 30-07-2009 6:47am

Oh good a thread on brakes!!!

Right, regarding the whole drilled/grooved debate. To be honest, its no better really than non drilled/grooved. As mentioned before, the theory is that when the pad gasses at very high temperatures, the gas has somewhere to escape to as opposed to being temporarily trapped between the pad and disc. However, this is really only applicable on the 'ring etc. 90% of cars with cross drilled discs do so as its cool and looks like it means business.

I develop brakes - its my job. I can categorically tell you that unless I was spec'ing a trackday car or serious (500 bhp+) performance car I would not bother. The downsides are reduced volume & surface area (for the same diameter disc obviously) which reduces the heat capacity - not ideal. Also, it causes lots of NVH (noise, vibration & harshness) problems which is fine on a Caterham but not so acceptable on a Golf for example. Finally, they are a bugger to clean. Part of the Porsche service schedule involves a guy with a rod cleaning out each of the drilled holes in the disc - can you imagine getting Kwik Fit to do that for you?

So, they have their place but if it were me upgrading brakes on a road car with modest (?) amounts of power I would plump for solid discs. If on the other had it was a stripped out 911 GT3 for track use I'd look at cross-drilled discs.

gofaster_s13 · 30-07-2009 7:29am

Mr.David wrote: »

So, they have their place but if it were me upgrading brakes on a road car with modest (?) amounts of power I would plump for solid discs. If on the other had it was a stripped out 911 GT3 for track use I'd look at cross-drilled discs.

Solid discs:eek: manufacturers don't even fit solid discs on the front of small hatchbacks any more

they would be a serious downgrade in technology and braking performance on 90% of modern cars.

Mr.David · 30-07-2009 7:31am

gofaster_s13 wrote: »

Solid discs:eek: manufacturers don't even fit solid discs on the front of small hatchbacks any more they would be a serious downgrade in technology and braking performance on 90% of modern cars.

Sorry I wasnt clear - I mean solid in terms of the rubbing surface i.e. not grooved or drilled. Certainly wasnt suggesting solid as in non-vented discs!!:P

tossy · 30-07-2009 2:34pm

Mr David you obviously know your stuff,but what you point out isn't often the case,alot comes down to the pad you are using with the 2 piece discs.

i did a lot of reading up before upgrading my brakes and harshness,noise,dirt etc were all things i was expecting but i have to say on my set up with a fast road pad i have experienced none of the above,in fact on the dirt issue my factory 1 piece vented discs on the rear of the car create more of it when washing my car the rear wheels are always far more dirty than the front.

When you apply the brakes the car stops in a no nonsense fashion with,no vibration or harshness,noise is non existent even after pushing them hard for a few consecutive corners the won't squeal.

I think waiting for 500bhp+ or a track car is being a bit too "hesitant" in my opinion there is plenty of precedent for a decent brake set up on a moderately powerful road car,off track my brakes have already proved their worth in real world conditions.

Just my two cents worth.

Mr.David · 30-07-2009 3:15pm

Hi tossy, dont get me wrong - I'm all for brake upgrades!

Two piece discs are good - a clear advantage over single piece. It prevents/reduces the coning effect at high temperatures as the disc is less restrained than the solid single piece. Is it the Brembo ones you have with the bobbins? They are good, but expensive.

And I agree that pad choice is v important.

tossy · 30-07-2009 4:47pm

Mr.David wrote: »

Hi tossy, dont get me wrong - I'm all for brake upgrades!

Two piece discs are good - a clear advantage over single piece. It prevents/reduces the coning effect at high temperatures as the disc is less restrained than the solid single piece. Is it the Brembo ones you have with the bobbins? They are good, but expensive.

And I agree that pad choice is v important.

I have ECS tuning (US tuning house specializing in Audi/VW/BMW) 2 piece 332mm Discs paired with the 4 pot Brembo mono block calipers from the Boxster.

Here it is just after fitting..

gillo_100 · 30-07-2009 4:57pm

JimmyCrackCorn! wrote: »

Is it an altezza as i have no idea wtf an Altea is?

Altea is a seat hatchback, comes in a 2.0 sport. Although I think you might be right guessing its a Altezza

Bluefoam · 30-07-2009 5:04pm

I have to bring this thread back to earth. The OP is talking about an altea, its a people wagon, it does not handle well, even with a suspension upgrade. It could never be considered a performance car and a brake upgrade sounds like a waste of money. If the OP wants to improve his breaking he should a)replace or upgrade the pads b)stop driving it fast c)buy a car that is supposed to be driven...

No offence OP, but I've driven a couple of MPVs recently and they are not drivers cars...

HashSlinging · 31-07-2009 12:08pm

I'll be going for the 312mm disks, without the grooves and holes, have been in contact with a dealer in belfast who's doing a deal on a cupra set.

HashSlinging · 31-07-2009 12:09pm

tossy wrote: »

I have ECS tuning (US tuning house specializing in Audi/VW/BMW) 2 piece 332mm Discs paired with the 4 pot Brembo mono block calipers from the Boxster.

Here it is just after fitting..

Serious set of brakes there.!

HashSlinging · 31-07-2009 12:24pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

I have to bring this thread back to earth. The OP is talking about an altea, its a people wagon, it does not handle well, even with a suspension upgrade. It could never be considered a performance car and a brake upgrade sounds like a waste of money. If the OP wants to improve his breaking he should a)replace or upgrade the pads b)stop driving it fast c)buy a car that is supposed to be driven...

No offence OP, but I've driven a couple of MPVs recently and they are not drivers cars...

How the hell would you know what MY car drive's like! have you ever driven a SEAT full stop.. I bet I've driven a couple of cars from the same class of car you have and hated them.. sweeping generalisation

What do you drive again ?

Bluefoam · 31-07-2009 12:28pm

HashSlinging wrote: »

I'll be going for the 312mm disks, without the grooves and holes, have been in contact with a dealer in belfast who's doing a deal on a cupra set.

Ha ha :pac::pac::pac: FFS

HashSlinging · 31-07-2009 12:31pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Ha ha :pac::pac::pac: FFS

? Grow up

Cuddlesworth · 31-07-2009 12:41pm

Fight outside in the yard after school everybody!!!

HashSlinging · 31-07-2009 12:51pm

Cheers for the helpful advice guys, I'm at the very early stages of doing some handy performance upgrades on my car.

OldmanMondeo · 31-07-2009 12:51pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Why not just get up rated brake pads? Ferodo green stuff for example.

Ok, probably a stupid question from someone who wholesales Ferodo pads, but what are green tops? These the racing pads?

Bluefoam · 31-07-2009 1:28pm

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Ok, probably a stupid question from someone who wholesales Ferodo pads, but what are green tops? These the racing pads?

Sorry, I think I mixed those up. EBC do Green Stuff. They are performance pads, but for normal street use - no track use (that would be red stuff or yellow stuff)

Ferodo are another performance brand.

http://www.ebcbrakes.com/automotive/greenstuff_brake_pads/greenstuff_brake_pads_2000.shtml

ianobrien · 31-07-2009 3:00pm

HashSlinging wrote: »

How the hell would you know what MY car drive's like! have you ever driven a SEAT full stop.. I bet I've driven a couple of cars from the same class of car you have and hated them.. sweeping generalisation

What do you drive again ?

Gee - The Seat is a people carrier, designed to ferry the cargo of kids & parents in a safe manner. It may have a small bit of poke to keep the father happy, and reasonable grip to keep the father happy also. It's not a performance motor.

Also I'd only upgrade the brakes if
1. You've experienced brake fade.
2. You regularly brake from 100mph plus to a stop.
3. You're being outbraked into the Karussel
4. If you need to replace brake discs/pads, if 1 to 3 actually did happen

OP, have you really used the brakes to the max? Do you regularly stamp on them so hard that the little ones go through the windscreen? If not, the current ones are fine

Take it from me, you don't need to upgrade the calipers/discs. I'm stuck in motorsport, and a change of pads and fluids does wonders in my experience. For me, new discs, pads and fluid (all o/e) will last me 160 miles of a night naviagation trial no problem, and the Ferodo DS pads in the '77 Escort, with new fluid and o/e discs/pads will stop the Escort quicker than most cars (when they're hot mind...)

cpoh1 · 31-07-2009 3:16pm

tossy wrote: »

I have ECS tuning (US tuning house specializing in Audi/VW/BMW) 2 piece 332mm Discs paired with the 4 pot Brembo mono block calipers from the Boxster.

Here it is just after fitting..

Ive got the exact same brembo calipers on my honda integra as standard, who'd have known a knacker honda would have the same stopping power as a porsche and for a fraction of the price

Mintex m1144 pads are super for use on the street, no warming up either. Only problem is they squeek like hell.

tossy · 31-07-2009 3:16pm

In fairness to the OP he was only asking about upgrading the disc size,it was others who took the thread else where with a good informative debate about brakes.

The OP is driving the 2.0TDI Altea,if i remember correctly these come with the 288mm discs as standard,in my experience this is not the greatest of brake set ups the 312mm VAG brake set up is a far more competent arrangement.I even upgraded to 312's on my last car a humble(in power terms) 130bhp Golf,the 312mm set up just gives you that little bit of extra confidence in the cars ability to reign itself in,the Altea is a 1 and a half ton car throw in the family and everything else then i don't blame him for uprating.

Nowhere in this thread has the OP said it was a performance car.He merely asked about upgrading discs.

More power to him i say!

tossy · 31-07-2009 3:21pm

cpoh1 wrote: »

Ive got the exact same brembo calipers on my honda integra as standard, who'd have known a knacker honda would have the same stopping power as a porsche and for a fraction of the price

Mintex m1144 pads are super for use on the street, no warming up either. Only problem is they squeek like hell.

I use Hawk HPS Performance Pads which are Hawks "fast road" pad,great pad,no squeal and very clean,the do take a few minutes to warm up though.

Gary ITR · 31-07-2009 3:26pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Sorry, I think I mixed those up. EBC do Green Stuff. They are performance pads, but for normal street use - no track use (that would be red stuff or yellow stuff)

Ferodo are another performance brand.

http://www.ebcbrakes.com/automotive/greenstuff_brake_pads/greenstuff_brake_pads_2000.shtml

I had green stuff pads in a MK2 Golf and I found them harsh and gave a lot of vibration. Also they were brutal for just slowing down they seemed to be just on or off

Seth Brundle · 31-07-2009 3:28pm

Remember that some performance pads only come to life when hot and their braking power isn't hectic when they are cold!

Slidey · 31-07-2009 5:52pm

As it happens I somehow warped a disc on the front of my Golf(150tdi) the other night.

So out of necessity was going to upgrade as I changed them.

Was thinking of something along the lines of these with maybe fast road pads.

Not arsed with putting bigger discs, its rare that I do cane it anyway.

HashSlinging · 31-07-2009 6:50pm

ianobrien wrote: »

Gee - The Seat is a people carrier, designed to ferry the cargo of kids & parents in a safe manner. It may have a small bit of poke to keep the father happy, and reasonable grip to keep the father happy also. It's not a performance motor.

Also I'd only upgrade the brakes if
1. You've experienced brake fade.
2. You regularly brake from 100mph plus to a stop.
3. You're being outbraked into the Karussel
4. If you need to replace brake discs/pads, if 1 to 3 actually did happen

OP, have you really used the brakes to the max? Do you regularly stamp on them so hard that the little ones go through the windscreen? If not, the current ones are fine

Take it from me, you don't need to upgrade the calipers/discs. I'm stuck in motorsport, and a change of pads and fluids does wonders in my experience. For me, new discs, pads and fluid (all o/e) will last me 160 miles of a night naviagation trial no problem, and the Ferodo DS pads in the '77 Escort, with new fluid and o/e discs/pads will stop the Escort quicker than most cars (when they're hot mind...)

Sorry should have mentioned (maybe I did) I'm getting my car remapped next year, reason for the brake upgrade is its standard for 2.0 TDi VAG cars (FR, VRS Etc) with 170Bhp to have 312mm disks, so although my meager 140bhp car is not a high end performance demon, 312mm seems to be the standard set by manufacturer.

Thanks for your comments esp the derogatory remark "keep the father happy" I think I'll follow their lead with this one.

ianobrien · 31-07-2009 9:21pm

HashSlinging wrote: »

Sorry should have mentioned (maybe I did) I'm getting my car remapped next year, reason for the brake upgrade is its standard for 2.0 TDi VAG cars (FR, VRS Etc) with 170Bhp to have 312mm disks, so although my meager 140bhp car is not a high end performance demon, 312mm seems to be the standard set by manufacturer.

Thanks for your comments esp the derogatory remark "keep the father happy" I think I'll follow their lead with this one.

If I were you, I wouldn't bother worrying about the brakes at the moment. Upgrade the brakes if you have brake fade. If you drive sensibly on the road, forget the brake upgrade.

By the way, the FR, VRS etc are generally driven a bit faster than people carriers as they are the "hot" ones. The younger buyers for these generally drive a bit faster and put more pressure on the brakes

If you drive "normally", I wouldn't bother wasting my money.

I've an Escort at home with a bit more poke than standard now, and all I've done is change the pads. I could have spent 500 plus on four pot calipers & big discs, but for the 80 euro for the pads, the brakes are more than adequate. The brakes coped with 3 days of a classic retro no problem.

Yakult · 31-07-2009 9:28pm

Sorry to ride your thread OP but could someone link me to a website that does brake upgrades for a honda civic? (Its ok to link right??)

Fishtits · 31-07-2009 9:39pm

There was a post earlier in the thread that said it all, something along the lines of ~ if you don't have a problem with brake fade then don't change. If you do have a problem with brake fade on standard equip, and it doesn't involve towing a trailer then I'd suggest the driver rather than the disks as needing attention...

Bluefoam · 31-07-2009 10:32pm

OP, you came here looking for advice and you received some very good advice. However you have chosen to deride the comments made and decided that the opinions on here are ignorant or thay the posters don't understand your car. Well fair play to you. I hope your car is safe to drive following your modifications. My advice is that if you are a spirited driver, you should drive a car that is fundamentally designed to be driven in that way.

Snowie · 31-07-2009 11:11pm

Bluefoam wrote: »

Sorry, I think I mixed those up. EBC do Green Stuff. They are performance pads, but for normal street use - no track use (that would be red stuff or yellow stuff)

Ferodo are another performance brand.

http://www.ebcbrakes.com/automotive/greenstuff_brake_pads/greenstuff_brake_pads_2000.shtml

EBC are performance related :eek: since when :eek:

Last time i had them on a car i cracked a disk

your better of with something like will wood or if you can afford them
Alcon they work damm good

cpoh1 · 01-08-2009 8:16am

Bluefoam wrote: »

OP, you came here looking for advice and you received some very good advice. However you have chosen to deride the comments made and decided that the opinions on here are ignorant or thay the posters don't understand your car. Well fair play to you. I hope your car is safe to drive following your modifications. My advice is that if you are a spirited driver, you should drive a car that is fundamentally designed to be driven in that way.

No he hasn't.

As far as im concerned any brake modifications are good whether the car needs them or not. If i had a people carrier that was carrying my family i would want as much stopping power as possible within reason and people telling im not to bother unless he's getting brake fade are way off the mark.

The only time I have ever experienced brake fade was on track, that didnt stop me fitting 282mm disks and bigger calipers on my mk2 honda crx, it improved my stopping distances massively and made my car a much safer one on the road.

OP if you are getting a remap and carrying load and family in your wagon get the brake upgrade and a decent set of pads, it'll be a muc safer environment! Try and pick the parts up cheap at beakers etc.

HashSlinging · 01-08-2009 8:52am

ianobrien wrote: »

If I were you, I wouldn't bother worrying about the brakes at the moment. Upgrade the brakes if you have brake fade. If you drive sensibly on the road, forget the brake upgrade.

By the way, the FR, VRS etc are generally driven a bit faster than people carriers as they are the "hot" ones. The younger buyers for these generally drive a bit faster and put more pressure on the brakes

I drive sensibly 99% of the time, but like the majority of experienced people on here I'm just thinking of the extra stopping power needed if I did want to let the reins out a bit, thanks for the comments.

BTW My "people carrier" is available in the FR also, with 170bhp, also available in the 2.0T with 200 bhp, believe it or not. :eek:

HashSlinging · 01-08-2009 9:10am

Bluefoam wrote: »

OP, you came here looking for advice and you received some very good advice. However you have chosen to deride the comments made and decided that the opinions on here are ignorant or thay the posters don't understand your car. Well fair play to you. I hope your car is safe to drive following your modifications. My advice is that if you are a spirited driver, you should drive a car that is fundamentally designed to be driven in that way.

You have made ignorant negative comments for which you got a slap on the wrist for and here you are again trying to get your last word in. I drive a family orientated car which you've never driven, and have no experience of so yes I did deride you. The rest of the comments from users here as usual have been informative, very informative actually.

Before I forget I see in another thread you are recommeding an owner of a diesel alfa get his car remapped, surely you should be recommending he quote:

if you are a spirited driver, you should drive a car that is fundamentally designed to be driven in that way.

You still havent answered my question of what car you drive? are you too ashamed that you will be ridiculed ?? I bet its a fiat.

Bluefoam · 01-08-2009 9:41am

Hi OP. I drive an alfa. Its a great payoff between a good drive and an economical daily car. I haven't made any modifications bar new mats as I am happy with the base performance for my needs.

In rocommending an alfa for a remap... The car is fundamentally designed to be driven in a spirited manner. That means the chassis, suspension, centre of gravity, engine etc... Upgrading parts on an alfa is a very different matter to upgrading parts on a space wagon which is designed to carry people and their stuff, the altea is certainly not designed as a drivers car as the majority of their owners have other priorities. Btw most alfas come as standard with brakes that are more than adequet for the type of driving they are designed for.
My opinion differs from yours, and I'm sorry you think that I need to have driven your car to understand your your point of view. Maybe you could organise an open day.

Btw. I did drive the vw carvelle recently. Which I believe is the car the altea is derived from and my assessment was that the engine had plenty of power, the brakes were good. But it freightend the life out of me when going around corners at anything above a crawl.

Bluefoam · 01-08-2009 9:43am

Also this is a public forum and I have a right to respond. And I have a right not to agree with you and to voice my opinions negative or otherwise.

I do however agree with the mod that I was being cheeky earlier and have since been more specific in my posts.

Normal brake disks V Drilled and Grooved

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