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Attitudes to Porn... Mod Warning Post 719

24567…26

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  • #32
    waraf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭waraf


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    Shellyboo, why on earth were you reading the Daily Mail??!

    Exactly. It's a xenophobic, Thatcherite, anti Irish paper and I can't believe a single person in Ireland reads it. The sight of it disgusts me.

    Back on topic, porn has its uses. We're quite prudish in this country when it comes to sex so if someone wants to look at porn and they're not doing any damage let them at it. That quote in that absolute disgrace of an excuse for a newspaper about porn being as damaging as class A drugs is so badly thought out it's insulting.


  • #33
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Emme wrote: »
    Right on. Porn seems to be about degradation more than anything and it's mostly degradation of women. I worry when I think of the angry men who watch rough hardcore porn and they DO want to act those scenarios out with women! Sometimes I wonder about humans - you don't see that kind of degradation in the animal kingdom.

    A come on,thats a bit of an over statement,no?Granted,some of the stuff out there is repulsive,but by and large the women in porn are treated very very well.Female porn stars,even starting out,generally get paid at least 3 times as much as their male counterparts for a scene.As they get more established they pick and choose when they will work and who they will work with and the vast majority of them say whats ok and what isnt.Watch any documentaries on the industry and the female stars say the same thing.They enjoy their work,they get very well paid,they are treated very well and its a safe environment.Your post is sensationalist in the extreme.


  • #34
    Emme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭Emme


    nedtheshed wrote: »
    A come on,thats a bit of an over statement,no?Granted,some of the stuff out there is repulsive,but by and large the women in porn are treated very very well.Female porn stars,even starting out,generally get paid at least 3 times as much as their male counterparts for a scene.As they get more established they pick and choose when they will work and who they will work with and the vast majority of them say whats ok and what isnt.Watch any documentaries on the industry and the female stars say the same thing.They enjoy their work,they get very well paid,they are treated very well and its a safe environment.Your post is sensationalist in the extreme.

    I think not. I agree with Neuro-Praxis when he says whatever we do to our bodies affects our souls. Some porn is plain silly but habitual viewing of porn burns out your soul and freezes your heart. The sad thing is that you don't realise what is happening until it's too late and you're too emotionally messed up to have a loving, intimate relationship.


  • #35
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    The comparison of porn, or sex for that matter, to drugs isn't wrong IMO.

    However, rather than wanting to demonise porn/sex, I wish that people would have the same liberal, "it's fine in moderation" attitudes towards drugs, instead of the double standard. Sex, at the end of the day, is just a high.

    I'm going to place devil's (God's?) advocate a bit here to make this discussion a bit more interesting. There are a lot of assertions here (not that I necessarily disagree), But how do you guys know that porn isn't a bad thing? It's very powerful, and markedly different to other distractions. I think it's something which has become almost too acceptable nowadays and I think many people overuse it without realising (not too dissimilar to cannabis or alcohol, I might add).


  • #36
    shellyboo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,883 ✭✭✭shellyboo


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    I consider pornography degrading to both the participants and the viewers because it is the industrialisation or commodification of the human person's most intimate self! I don't think that body and spirit (or heart or soul or whatever you might call it) are separate entities. I think that whatever is done to your body affects your spirit. If anyone I loved became a porn star I would be very sad and worried, even if they said they were happy. To have filmed sex in public for money is simply not, as far as I can see, what we were made for. To participate through masturbation in it is to be implicit in saying that it's ok for human beings just to consider themselves meatbags for moneymaking.

    Ok, yeah, but leave aside the money. Amateur porn, me and my (hypothetical) boyfriend film ourselves and put it up on a website cos we want to and it turns us on - can you put your finger on the part of that scenario that's degrading for you?
    waraf wrote: »
    Exactly. It's a xenophobic, Thatcherite, anti Irish paper and I can't believe a single person in Ireland reads it. The sight of it disgusts me.

    If you read my reply you'd see that I don't read it... I saw a link.


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  • #37
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    I don't have any issue with porn as part of a normal sex life for a couple, or as a masturbatory tool. As long as it isn't taken to excesses it's fine.
    The only thing I'd be kinda squicked out a bit about is that the people in it are doing it fully informed and of their own free will and are being paid well and having their sexual health protected.
    This is a concern I would have too. Nobody should ever be forced into the porn industry, or filmed when they are under the influence of anything.


  • #38
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Emme wrote: »
    I think not. I agree with Neuro-Praxis when he says whatever we do to our bodies affects our souls. Some porn is plain silly but habitual viewing of porn burns out your soul and freezes your heart. The sad thing is that you don't realise what is happening until it's too late and you're too emotionally messed up to have a loving, intimate relationship.

    So I take it that you are a habitual porn viewer that has had your soul burned out and your heart frozen?Because only someone speaking from personal experience could possibly make a statement as sweeping as that and expect to be taken seriously.

    Can I ask,what would you deem habitual.Every day,twice a day etc.

    To say people that regularly watch porn cannot form a relationship is ludicrous,it really is.


  • #39
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    shellyboo wrote: »
    Ok, yeah, but leave aside the money. Amateur porn, me and my (hypothetical) boyfriend film ourselves and put it up on a website cos we want to and it turns us on - can you put your finger on the part of that scenario that's degrading for you?

    I suppose here we get onto the issue of identity.

    If you and your boyfriend film yourselves having sex and then watch it back together (or even separately while both remaining in the relationship) I don't see a real problem, unless either one or both of you reached a point where arousal was only possible where a camera was involved. However I do think both parties would need to be pretty self-aware in this kind of scenario, so as not to develop an objectification of their partner. Incidentally I have come across a number of relationships over the years where one or both parties have truly objectified the other, leading to inevitable hurt. We are not things to get each other off - we are human beings and sex is a fun and beautiful way to express love. I suppose I should add that I (not surprisingly) feel sex ought to be confined to love relationships.

    However if you and your boyfriend film yourselves having sex and then submit it to a public website, I honestly think something has gone astray. You are displaying your genitals on a public medium so that other people can stimulate their genitals while looking at you. I suppose for some people this is a self-esteem building measure - the "got it flaunt it" theme. But this is what I mean when I talk about identity. I keep my sexual practices entirely private, not because I am prudish (I'm happy to chat about it with close friends where appropriate and not for titillation), but because it is a pursuit that is between me and my husband and absolutely no-one else. I understand that others will not agree and feel that public sex and sex with multiple partners is fine: ok then. However I believe that if we are secure in our own identity and secure in our relationship, there will be no need to publicly prove our sexual prowess in the bedroom.

    My identity is not in my appearance or what I can do in the bedroom. My identity is built on my character, and being filmed performing sexual acts (even the word perform is all wrong - sex is not a performance but an expression) would do nothing for my character.

    My husband does not watch pornography. I know some men will find that hard to believe as porn is so all-pervasive. This is not because he does not find porn arousing, he is only human as are the rest of us, but he just doesn't want to support the industry.


  • #40
    shellyboo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,883 ✭✭✭shellyboo


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    I suppose here we get onto the issue of identity.

    If you and your boyfriend film yourselves having sex and then watch it back together (or even separately while both remaining in the relationship) I don't see a real problem, unless either one or both of you reached a point where arousal was only possible where a camera was involved. However I do think both parties would need to be pretty self-aware in this kind of scenario, so as not to develop an objectification of their partner. Incidentally I have come across a number of relationships over the years where one or both parties have truly objectified the other, leading to inevitable hurt. We are not things to get each other off - we are human beings and sex is a fun and beautiful way to express love. I suppose I should add that I (not surprisingly) feel sex ought to be confined to love relationships.

    However if you and your boyfriend film yourselves having sex and then submit it to a public website, I honestly think something has gone astray. You are displaying your genitals on a public medium so that other people can stimulate their genitals while looking at you. I suppose for some people this is a self-esteem building measure - the "got it flaunt it" theme. But this is what I mean when I talk about identity. I keep my sexual practices entirely private, not because I am prudish (I'm happy to chat about it with close friends where appropriate and not for titillation), but because it is a pursuit that is between me and my husband and absolutely no-one else. I understand that others will not agree and feel that public sex and sex with multiple partners is fine: ok then. However I believe that if we are secure in our own identity and secure in our relationship, there will be no need to publicly prove our sexual prowess in the bedroom.



    Hmm, cool. OK, that's a really interesting point of view. I'd agree with you that if you *need* to display such things in order to get aroused there is a problem, but outside of that, if it's just something a couple do for fun, I still don't see the harm in it.

    I somewhat share your view on sex between you and your husband - I think it's something that should be kept private, out of respect for your partner more than anything else. But if *both* partners decide to share it with the world at large, and it's consensual and all that... I really struggle to see anything wrong in that.

    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    My identity is not in my appearance or what I can do in the bedroom. My identity is built on my character, and being filmed performing sexual acts (even the word perform is all wrong - sex is not a performance but an expression) would do nothing for my character.

    Bit confused - your identity has nothing to do with your sex life, but your character does? But then you say your identity is based on your character... which is affected by your sex life... so surely it is related in some way?

    For me, my sexuality is an enormous part of my identity.


  • #41
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    shellyboo wrote: »
    Bit confused - your identity has nothing to do with your sex life, but your character does? But then you say your identity is based on your character... which is affected by your sex life... so surely it is related in some way?

    For me, my sexuality is an enormous part of my identity.

    Let me try to clarify.

    My identity is definitely linked to my sexuality, but not to my sex life as in, not linked to how I perform sexually. My sexuality is a part of the whole me, the whole woman, and would remain part of my identity even if I were single and celibate. I am trying to say I don't get self-esteem from how I "perform" in the bedroom, as my sexual relationship is very far away from those kinds of markers.

    When I said,
    being filmed performing sexual acts ... would do nothing for my character.

    I meant - it would do nothing good for my character, so why would I do it?

    And yes, my identity is based on my character, which is affected by how I behave sexually, or otherwise. And when I say behave sexually, I don't mean what I do in the bedroom. I mean that I feel that my character and whole self in fact would be adversely affected by certain sexual practices (being filmed during sex or being paid by a customer for sex for example).

    Is that any clearer?


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  • #42
    shellyboo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,883 ✭✭✭shellyboo


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    Let me try to clarify.

    My identity is definitely linked to my sexuality, but not to my sex life as in, not linked to how I perform sexually. My sexuality is a part of the whole me, the whole woman, and would remain part of my identity even if I were single and celibate. I am trying to say I don't get self-esteem from how I "perform" in the bedroom, as my sexual relationship is very far away from those kinds of markers.

    When I said,



    I meant - it would do nothing good for my character, so why would I do it?

    And yes, my identity is based on my character, which is affected by how I behave sexually, or otherwise. And when I say behave sexually, I don't mean what I do in the bedroom. I mean that I feel that my character and whole self in fact would be adversely affected by certain sexual practices (being filmed during sex or being paid by a customer for sex for example).

    Is that any clearer?


    Yep, much clearer. Not sure I completely agree though


    I mean, obviously it's not a life-affirming, "good", thing, but I'd say it could be pretty empowering for some people. I just think, and I don't mean to be offensive, that it's somewhat of an arbitrary thing to pick as a character-damaging act. I don't see anything in the act of simply filming something that you'd have been doing anyway as particularly bad, I suppose.

    Perhaps it's in a way saying that simply enjoying your partner is not enough? That as well as being with the person you want to add an extra element to it (filming) and that somehow devalues the act itself?


  • #43
    Emme
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,055 ✭✭✭Emme


    nedtheshed wrote: »
    So I take it that you are a habitual porn viewer that has had your soul burned out and your heart frozen?Because only someone speaking from personal experience could possibly make a statement as sweeping as that and expect to be taken seriously.

    Can I ask,what would you deem habitual.Every day,twice a day etc.

    To say people that regularly watch porn cannot form a relationship is ludicrous,it really is.

    I viewed "soft" porn a few times on the suggestion of a boyfriend who didn't last very long. I wasn't impressed and haven't viewed porn since.


  • #44
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Lots of people are focusing on the unrealistic expectations porn puts on women, but it also puts unrealistic expectations on men.

    A lot of teenage boys watching porn start thinking that their penises are too small, that they're not producing enough ejaculate etc.

    I think as long as people are mature enough to know that Porn isn't the real world, there's no harm in it. The problem is, a lot of teenagers aren't mature enough to know this or accept this.

    I consume porn mostly in the form of erotic fiction, I find videos a bit quick and leaving nothing up to the imagination.


  • #45
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    So are you saying Shellyboo you only approve of porn if it's home videos on the web? Realistically the vast majority of porn online is there to make serious money, it's not couples getting their jollies.

    Das Kitty, erotic fiction is utterly different because, as the name implies, the characters involved are fictitious. This puts it in the category not of pornography but erotica.


  • #46
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    Das Kitty, erotic fiction is utterly different because, as the name implies, the characters involved are fictitious. This puts it in the category not of pornography but erotica.

    You should try reading what I read.

    The people in porn are fictional characters too btw.


  • #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,691 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I've never had issues with a partner watching porn.

    I only watch porn if I want something ridiculous to laugh at.

    That's it really!


  • #48
    DaveMaC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32 ✭DaveMaC


    Emme wrote: »
    habitual viewing of porn burns out your soul and freezes your heart.
    So does working at a supermarket checkout....


  • #49
    minidazzler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,650 ✭✭✭✭minidazzler


    Emme wrote: »
    I viewed "soft" porn a few times on the suggestion of a boyfriend who didn't last very long. I wasn't impressed and haven't viewed porn since.

    In a previous post you said that porn is "about degradation more than anything", But you have never watched any porn. Soft porn just isn't porn, it's gratuitous sexual content in a tacky movie. It's nothing you won't see in any normal movie really, especially movies from the 80's and 90's.

    I enjoy porn as do a large proportion of men, I have seen some horrid pron and some very exciting stuff, but I would never say to a girl "but they do it in Pron". And any lad that does say that, you should just show him the 2G1C video, see if they would enjoy that.


  • #50
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,024 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    nedtheshed wrote: »
    So I take it that you are a habitual porn viewer that has had your soul burned out and your heart frozen?Because only someone speaking from personal experience could possibly make a statement as sweeping as that and expect to be taken seriously.

    Can I ask,what would you deem habitual.Every day,twice a day etc.

    To say people that regularly watch porn cannot form a relationship is ludicrous,it really is.

    Not just ludicrous, also offensive.


  • #51
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,024 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    Lots of people are focusing on the unrealistic expectations porn puts on women, but it also puts unrealistic expectations on men.

    A lot of teenage boys watching porn start thinking that their penises are too small, that they're not producing enough ejaculate etc.

    I think as long as people are mature enough to know that Porn isn't the real world, there's no harm in it. The problem is, a lot of teenagers aren't mature enough to know this or accept this.

    +1


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  • #52
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Originally Posted by Das Kitty
    Lots of people are focusing on the unrealistic expectations porn puts on women, but it also puts unrealistic expectations on men.

    A lot of teenage boys watching porn start thinking that their penises are too small, that they're not producing enough ejaculate etc.

    I think as long as people are mature enough to know that Porn isn't the real world, there's no harm in it. The problem is, a lot of teenagers aren't mature enough to know this or accept this.
    + 1




    Watching porn never stopped me forming relations with opposite sex and it may have actually enhanced it, if only because viewing the porn (sometimes together) made us more sexually aware of our bodies and aroused in bed .Having said that it is only one aspect of any relationship ,not the whole be all / end all of it .Having a good imagination can be just as powerful and a substitute for any porn movie .I think the whole 'sex is dirty ' aspect as thought to many when younger still affects many peoples way of thinking about porn so they may well have guilt issues about viewing same .


  • #53
    Otis Driftwood
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,925 ✭✭✭Otis Driftwood


    Emme wrote: »
    I viewed "soft" porn a few times on the suggestion of a boyfriend who didn't last very long. I wasn't impressed and haven't viewed porn since.

    You really arent in a position to pass judgement then,are you?

    You dont like porn,thats personal preference and I totally respect that but you cannot say that people that watch porn turn into degenerates unable to have a proper relationship.

    Its like saying people that view horror movies regularly will turn into murderers or something.

    Im not having a go at you by the way,just making a point.:)


  • #54
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    Das Kitty wrote: »
    You should try reading what I read.

    The people in porn are fictional characters too btw.

    The people in porn are not fictional, they are human beings. I can't believe I had to write that. It isn't as though porn "movies" are like mainstream films with plots and creativity and narrative.


  • #55
    Das Kitty
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    The people in porn are not fictional, they are human beings. I can't believe I had to write that. It isn't as though porn "movies" are like mainstream films with plots and creativity and narrative.

    So if they had plots, creativity and narrative it would be OK then?

    The people are actors, they may not be good actors but they're actors nonetheless portraying characters.

    Just because they actually have sex in their films doesn't change that fact.

    Lots of actors in mainstream films do things for their roles that are very hard to fathom and damaging to their bodies (losing and gaining a lot of weight, hanging out with criminal gangs etc) but no one has a problem with this. They're seen as dedicated to their art.

    What if someone who's writing erotic fiction goes out and partakes in the sex scenario they are intending to write about (which I'm sure a heck of a lot of them do), how does that lie with you? Surely it's the same thing, only there's no camera around to capture it.


  • #56
    neuro-praxis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,184 ✭✭✭neuro-praxis


    This is my last word on the subject as the conversation has just taken a dive.
    Das Kitty wrote: »
    So if they had plots, creativity and narrative it would be OK then?

    No. Have I somehow implied that I think it would be?
    The people are actors, they may not be good actors but they're actors nonetheless portraying characters. Just because they actually have sex in their films doesn't change that fact. Lots of actors in mainstream films do things for their roles that are very hard to fathom and damaging to their bodies (losing and gaining a lot of weight, hanging out with criminal gangs etc) but no one has a problem with this. They're seen as dedicated to their art.

    I guess you're right. Porn stars are just being dedicated to their art.
    What if someone who's writing erotic fiction goes out and partakes in the sex scenario they are intending to write about (which I'm sure a heck of a lot of them do), how does that lie with you? Surely it's the same thing, only there's no camera around to capture it.

    What anyone does in their private life is none of my business. The topic of this conversation was women's opinions on pornography and I've offered mine.


  • #57
    Morgase
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    To paraphrase shellyboo, I think porn is just something functional, like a vibrator.

    I've no problem with it as long as it's consenting and legal.


  • #58
    shellyboo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,883 ✭✭✭shellyboo


    neuro-praxis wrote: »
    So are you saying Shellyboo you only approve of porn if it's home videos on the web? Realistically the vast majority of porn online is there to make serious money, it's not couples getting their jollies.


    Nope, I never said that! I approve of all porn once the actors in it are of legal age, not drunk or high, and performing with consent.

    I wanted to leave aside the porn-for-pay aspect to get to the root of what you find offensive about porn as a concept as opposed to the porn industry.


  • #59
    hippiechickie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭hippiechickie


    This post has been deleted.


  • #60
    d'Oracle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,024 ✭✭✭d'Oracle


    hippiechickie wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    I have seen a truck-load.



    For the record, I have also seen a great deal where there was no real demeaning element.
    hippiechickie wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I have seen plenty of that too.


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  • #61
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    hippiechickie wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I take it you haven't watched much porn?


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