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Lisbon 2 The Return!

13567…40

Comments

  • #62
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    Mossy Monk wrote: »
    I voted no the first time and will do so again this time.

    want to give a reason why?


  • #63
    Morzadec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,952 ✭✭✭Morzadec


    Adamcp898 wrote: »
    I'll vote no*, a little afraid of what our government will do if it can set its own taxes

    *this requires me to register first

    :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:


  • #64
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    Adamcp898 wrote: »
    I'll vote no, a little afraid of what our government will do if it can set its own taxes

    Whaaaa?


  • #65
    Adamcp898
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭Adamcp898


    K-9 wrote: »
    What do you mean?

    One of the changes made so that a yes vote would be obtained, maybe not to the treaty itself but for us in any case, was that we would still have control of our taxes, no?? I'm completely open to correction on this


  • #66
    iseethelight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 547 ✭✭✭iseethelight


    I'm voting no because it'll annoy Cowen and Lenihan. I know its wrong but they didn't listen and resign after the Euros so I hope a strong no will make em go.


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  • #67
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,594 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Im voting NO... the EU is like here cept the suits are fatter,more corrupt and bigger **** than the muppets we have in power here... i think ill pick the lesser of 2 evils... and for those interested .. all these add ons that we are supposed to be getting .. wont be "voted" on till 2012.. ie they will never happen


  • #68
    Morzadec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,952 ✭✭✭Morzadec


    Adamcp898 wrote: »
    One of the changes made so that a yes vote would be obtained, maybe not to the treaty itself but for us in any case, was that we would still have control of our taxes, no?? I'm completely open to correction on this

    But we (and the government we elect and whom represent us) have always had control of our taxes and, Lisbon or no Lisbon, always will (despite what the anti-Lisbon scaremongerers might have had some people believing last time).

    Unless your post was meant as a sarcastic jibe against our government?


  • #69
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Adamcp898 wrote: »
    One of the changes made so that a yes vote would be obtained, maybe not to the treaty itself but for us in any case, was that we would still have control of our taxes, no?? I'm completely open to correction on this

    Ah right, I see the confusion.

    The change or assurance is that nothing in Lisbon affects our Corporation Tax policy, which is one of the lowest in Europe.

    The EU has no power over Direct taxes anyway, like Corporation tax and Income tax.

    It already has a certain say over indirect taxes like VAT or VRT, but not even much there, hence our high VRT rates.

    In summary, our Govt. sets tax rates anyway and the EU has little power over it, Lisbon or no Lisbon.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #70
    Morzadec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,952 ✭✭✭Morzadec


    iseethelight wrote: »
    I'm voting no because it'll annoy Cowen and Lenihan. I know its wrong but they didn't listen and resign after the Euros so I hope a strong no will make em go.

    This is just a god awful reason for voting no. there's more at stake here, please don't vote No for such a petty reason. Lisbon has nothing to do with Fianna Fail. Pretty much all the other parties are in favour of it. Read my post on the last page, voting No as a protest against the government is just... :eek::( I dunno I don't have words for it.

    Can you not wait for the next general election??


  • #71
    Adamcp898
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭Adamcp898


    K-9 wrote: »
    Ah right, I see the confusion.

    The change or assurance is that nothing in Lisbon affects our Corporation Tax policy, which is one of the lowest in Europe.

    The EU has no power over Direct taxes anyway, like Corporation tax and Income tax.

    It already has a certain say over indirect taxes like VAT or VRT, but not even much there, hence our high VRT rates.

    In summary, our Govt. sets tax rates anyway and the EU has little power over it, Lisbon or no Lisbon.

    Ah thanks, I realised we do and still would have control of our taxes but I just thought this change that was made would have meant they have a free reign to do whatever they liked as regards taxes and levels (such as those on VAT)


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  • #72
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Im voting NO... the EU is like here cept the suits are fatter,more corrupt and bigger **** than the muppets we have in power here...

    is there any proof u care to share with us that the eu is corrupt or are u just assuming they are because some Irish ones are


  • #73
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Won't be in the country.


  • #74
    Agamemnon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭Agamemnon


    It'll be a grudging "Yes" from me because I don't really see anything wrong with the treaty. Plus staying in the EU's good books is more important to us now than giving our government a knee in the bollocks (however much they deserve it).

    The anger of the "No" side is perfectly understandable though. The decision of the electorate should always be final in a democracy. Then again, we changed our minds over Nice so we can't really blame the politicians for trying again with Lisbon.


  • #75
    iseethelight
    Closed Accounts Posts: 547 ✭✭✭iseethelight


    Morzadec wrote: »
    This is just a god awful reason for voting no. there's more at stake here, please don't vote No for such a petty reason. Lisbon has nothing to do with Fianna Fail. Pretty much all the other parties are in favour of it. Read my post on the last page, voting No as a protest against the government is just... :eek::( I dunno I don't have words for it.

    Can you not wait for the next general election??

    Yes all the main parties are in favour so thats a good reason for voting no. I can't wait for an election. If Cowen listened to people he would call an election to at least try and gain a mandate for his policies. He refuses to listen to us so why should I listen to him. I voted for Fianna Fail last time out however if he was leader I would of voted labour.


  • #76
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,594 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    dannym08 wrote: »
    is there any proof u care to share with us that the eu is corrupt or are u just assuming they are because some Irish ones are

    Read the papers much?.. if you think people here take the piss out of expenses claims:rolleyes:


  • #77
    bug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭bug


    I think everyone is insane.
    Here, then and everywhere.
    wrote:
    randomer yes voter
    I'll be voting yes for this, I can't see anything wrong with the treaty

    I think everyone's lost their marbles.

    I'll be voting no, yet again. *sigh*


  • #78
    i57dwun4yb1pt8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭i57dwun4yb1pt8


    if they get rid of fianna fail before hand = yes

    if not

    no

    and no ,
    i dont give a fu.ck what you think about this methodology


  • #79
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Im voting NO... the EU is like here cept the suits are fatter,more corrupt and bigger **** than the muppets we have in power here... i think ill pick the lesser of 2 evils... and for those interested .. all these add ons that we are supposed to be getting .. wont be "voted" on till 2012.. ie they will never happen

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055617733

    For a different point of view.

    In particular:
    legal context agreed wrote:
    5. Regarding the Decision in Annex 1, the Heads of State or Government have declared that:
    (i) this Decision gives legal guarantee that certain matters of concern to the Irish people will be unaffected by the entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon;
    (ii) its content is fully compatible with the Treaty of Lisbon and will not necessitate any reratification of that Treaty;
    (iii) the Decision is legally binding and will take effect on the date of entry into force of the Treaty of Lisbon;
    (iv) they will, at the time of the conclusion of the next accession Treaty, set out the provisions of the annexed Decision in a Protocol to be attached, in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements, to the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union;
    (v) the Protocol will in no way alter the relationship between the EU and its Member States. The sole purpose of the Protocol will be to give full Treaty status to the clarifications set out in the Decision to meet the concerns of the Irish people. Its status will be no different from similar clarifications in Protocols obtained by other Member States. The Protocol will clarify but not change either the content or the application of the Treaty of Lisbon.
    The Dept. of Foreign Affairs wrote:
    The Decision of the 27 EU Heads of States or Government agreed at the June European Council on Ireland’s legal guarantees will constitute an international agreement, which will take effect on the date of entry into force of the Lisbon Treaty. This will be legally binding under international law and will be registered with the United Nations.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #80
    Min
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,550 ✭✭✭Min


    As a pro-European I will be voting no.

    I believe in democracy, I feel we the people of Europe should be able to have a US style presidential election for European president instead of the politicians telling us who they want and then instill as president of Europe.

    Give us European citizens a vote. It would help to bring Europe closer to the people instead of it looking like an old boys club where they get together and stick in one of their own.
    Open it up and let the people decide with a fair and democratic election.


  • #81
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    I'm voting No.

    Reason: No party has come up with a good enough reason for me to vote otherwise.


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  • #82
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Read the papers much?.. if you think people here take the piss out of expenses claims:rolleyes:

    Hasty Generalization fallacy, not exactly the best argument ever.
    Min wrote: »
    As a pro-European I will be voting no.

    I believe in democracy, I feel we the people of Europe should be able to have a US style presidential election for European president instead of the politicians telling us who they want and then instill as president of Europe.

    Give us European citizens a vote. It would help to bring Europe closer to the people instead of it looking like an old boys club where they get together and stick in one of their own.
    Open it up and let the people decide with a fair and democratic election.

    *facepalm*

    there is so much wrong with your post, i'm not sure where to begin.

    I guess the first bit is your fundimental misunderstanding of the purpose of the EU president, the difference between the states (a federal constitutional republic) and the EU (an economic and political union) and finally, i can't believe anyone would really advocate the electoral college US style system for anything.


  • #83
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,594 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    thelordofcheese wrote: »
    Hasty Generalization fallacy, not exactly the best argument ever.

    Firstly the EU Parliament refuse to reveal their expences......and i wonder why....
    Just like here when the government fought tooth and nail not to have to reveal their expenses

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0516/1224246700643.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1580803/European-Parliament-members-face-challenge-over-expenses.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1579344/Criminal-abuse-of-expenses-by-Euro-MPs.html


  • #84
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Adamcp898 wrote: »
    Ah thanks, I realised we do and still would have control of our taxes but I just thought this change that was made would have meant they have a free reign to do whatever they liked as regards taxes and levels (such as those on VAT)

    I think we'd all love for our VAT and VRT rates to be closer to the EU average, but the other side of the coin is: we have low Income tax/PRSI and low Corporation tax.

    Govts. don't like the EU interfering in internal tax policy, which again, maybe if the EU had, we wouldn't have such a low tax base now and have to increase taxes in a time of recession!
    iseethelight wrote: »
    Yes all the main parties are in favour so thats a good reason for voting no. I can't wait for an election. If Cowen listened to people he would call an election to at least try and gain a mandate for his policies. He refuses to listen to us so why should I listen to him. I voted for Fianna Fail last time out however if he was leader I would of voted labour.

    I think most knew Cowen was going to be leader in this Govts. term.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #85
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Min wrote: »
    As a pro-European I will be voting no.

    I believe in democracy, I feel we the people of Europe should be able to have a US style presidential election for European president instead of the politicians telling us who they want and then instill as president of Europe.

    Give us European citizens a vote. It would help to bring Europe closer to the people instead of it looking like an old boys club where they get together and stick in one of their own.
    Open it up and let the people decide with a fair and democratic election.


    I don't have a problem with the principle, but if we apply "one person, one vote" Irelands vote will mean nothing, as indeed will half the countries in the EU. Concentrate on the 11/12 biggest countries and you've won!


    TheZohan wrote: »
    I'm voting No.

    Reason: No party has come up with a good enough reason for me to vote otherwise.

    There are good reasons, they just aren't sexy or eye catching.
    twinytwo wrote: »
    Firstly the EU Parliament refuse to reveal their expences......and i wonder why....

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0516/1224246700643.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1580803/European-Parliament-members-face-challenge-over-expenses.html

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1579344/Criminal-abuse-of-expenses-by-Euro-MPs.html

    That has been changed.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #86
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Firstly the EU Parliament refuse to reveal their expences......and i wonder why....

    You don't know what a Hasty Generalization fallacy is. Your assumption is that because X number of politicians have misused expenses, therefore all of them are. Which is nonsense.

    Also, it's worth noting that the EU has itself audited every year, as a measure against corruption, something that to my knowledge, is not done to the Dail.


  • #87
    Morzadec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,952 ✭✭✭Morzadec


    iseethelight wrote: »
    Yes all the main parties are in favour so thats a good reason for voting no. I can't wait for an election. If Cowen listened to people he would call an election to at least try and gain a mandate for his policies. He refuses to listen to us so why should I listen to him. I voted for Fianna Fail last time out however if he was leader I would of voted labour.

    But this election is not about Fianna fail or the government! It's not about a mandate for their policies. It's about europe and Ireland's role in Europe.

    You do realise that if you got what you wanted and a general election was held tomorrow and Fianna Fail were turfed out, the new government would still support the Lisbon Treaty? Would this, then, by your logic make you vote yes?

    The logic is so flawed it's unbelievable.

    I'm going to say it again because I feel it's important.

    This referendum is not about Fianna Fail. It is not about the Government. It is a mandate on either Fianna Fail or the government.

    It is a referendum on a Treaty.

    Everyone should be voting on the merits of this treaty and the effect it will have on our country and on Europe, and nothing else.


  • #88
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,594 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Morzadec wrote: »
    But this election is not about Fianna fail or the government! It's not about a mandate for their policies. It's about europe and Ireland's role in Europe.

    You do realise that if you got what you wanted and a general election was held tomorrow and Fianna Fail were turfed out, the new government would still support the Lisbon Treaty? Would this, then, by your logic make you vote yes?

    The logic is so flawed it's unbelievable.

    I'm going to say it again because I feel it's important.

    This referendum is not about Fianna Fail. It is not about the Government. It is a mandate on either Fianna Fail or the government.

    It is a referendum on a Treaty.

    Everyone should be voting on the merits of this treaty and the effect it will have on our country and on Europe, and nothing else.

    Thus why countries like England and italy whos people wanted a vote but they are not required to have one.. were not allowed vote on one of the most important documents in the history of their country?.. maybe to do with the french people voting no the last time.... If people believe democracy is at the heart of the EU then alot of people are seriously deluded


  • #89
    bug
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,204 ✭✭✭bug


    Morzadec wrote: »
    This referendum is not about Fianna Fail. It is not about the Government. It is a mandate on either Fianna Fail or the government.

    It is a referendum on a Treaty.

    Everyone should be voting on the merits of this treaty and the effect it will have on our country and on Europe, and nothing else.

    Dead right.

    So get a copy of the treaty, and other referenced documents and take a few days off work/or on the picket line to reference them all between each other.

    "VOTE YES" brought to you by the same lot that brought you "Nice for jobs".


  • #90
    twinytwo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,594 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Morzadec wrote: »
    But this election is not about Fianna fail or the government! It's not about a mandate for their policies. It's about europe and Ireland's role in Europe.

    i love they way that gets thrown around just like if we vote no there will be a "2 tier" europe or we "will be left behind"... Europe is controlled by the money powerhouses. and thats the way it will always be


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  • #91
    seanl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 ✭seanl


    Firstly I will be voting Yes to the Lisbon Treaty. Just as I did the last time.

    The EU is a miracle - the best thing to happen Europe in a hell of a long time. It has brought peace, prosperity and the possibility of Europe as a real power in the world and not just a pawn of America.

    For Ireland what better vehicle for the preservation of our culture than a union of 27 states where no one state can dominate. For hundreds of years Irish people struggled to break free of the overbearing influence of our bigger neighbour. Now we have found the perfect structure for small nations like ours to thrive and we want to throw it all away.

    It is important we vote yes and get out of this recent atmosphere of negativity towards the EU and everything else as well.


This discussion has been closed.
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