Ireland - Still A Backward Country?

TheInquisitor · 18-07-2009 01:31PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Another fallacy. A child cannot survive without it's mother outside of the womb either. Should we promote infanticide?

I personally think the appearance of the biological structure is irrelevant. Whether from the first to the last week, they are about equivalent. All it is that one is less developed than the other. If we applied this reasoning to our society we'd have chaos. Why can't we kill toddlers, they aren't human, they are less developed than us? Seriously, this thinking is utterly dangerous.

I support the current Irish legal definition. If it seriously endangered the life of the mother the only reasonable pro-life view is to save as many lives as possible. If two will die otherwise, it is best to save one. In any other case I am totally in disagreement.

Thats not what im saying at all. Of course a child can survive outside the womb and without a mother. It can be supported by others. Taking me promoting infanticide from what i said is completely ridiculous and baseless.

A woman who was raped should be allowed to choose without a shadow of a doubt.

Purple Gorilla · 18-07-2009 01:32PM

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Because if it cannot survive without being inside its mother it is not a child

I agree it is human life but it doesn't feel, it doesn't think. A growing clump of cells is still a clump of cells. Until like 7 months in when it can survive an early birth it doesn't have any rights as far as im concerned.

Would you support an abortion is the woman was raped and impregnated or if it seriously endangered the life of the mother?

You do realise that you are also a clump of cells?

Purple Gorilla · 18-07-2009 01:33PM

el_weirdo wrote: »

Germany can't be that bad if you have that sort of money to throw around on opinions...:pac:

We'll set up a task force to counter his argument

philologos · 18-07-2009 01:37PM

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Thats not what im saying at all. Of course a child can survive outside the womb and without a mother. It can be supported by others. Taking me promoting infanticide from what i said is completely ridiculous and baseless.

I didn't say you promoted infanticide. However, you missed my point. A child is dependant on someone for a lot of their lives. Why can't we kill a child if it is dependant on us and if we don't want it to be dependant on us? The reasoning for abortion because of this is the same pretty much as the reasoning for infanticide due to this reason.

TheInquisitor wrote: »

A woman who was raped should be allowed to choose without a shadow of a doubt.

I'm not with you on this one. The unborn child has done nothing wrong and does not deserve to die.

thelordofcheese · 18-07-2009 01:40PM

AlexderFranke wrote: »

I think allowing (hard) pornography, same gender marriages, abortion, rude blasphemy and banning schools run by the church are a sign of decadency rather than progres.

And i think you're so wrong, you may never be right about anything ever again.

pisslips · 18-07-2009 01:58PM

asdasd wrote: »

I suppose the idea is that if we are not to restrict marriage to men and women - moving away from traditions based on ideas of culture or religion - then we could end up with bestiality. This is a slippery slope argument, which are generally bad arguments.

On the other hand the movement away from traditional marriages could easily lead to polygamy. In fact it is hard to see the argument against polygamy ( which is worldwide, and historically more common than homosexual marriages) unless the argument is cultural - that is: we dont do that kind of thing round here.

The counter argument is that we didn't do homosexual marriages round here until recently. Therfore the argument that homosecual marriages could lead to polygamy is valid, since we have moved away from the idea that marriage is between a man and a woman, it makes sense to take that to a logical conclusion.

In the case of besitality, there are other counter arguments - the lack of personhood we grant to the animal for instance, and presumed lack of consent. Peter Singer argues for bestiality, but he sees animals as persons.

Are you not also using a slippery slope argument regarding polygamy. Anyway it's still a valid comparison.
And perhaps you could argue consent with an animal but not with incest for example.
For me it is not so much a slippery slope argument, moreso I'm calling incest and homosexuality morally equal. And if one is allowed then the other should be.

Also, my point still stands regarding the purpose of marriage in society. There is no reason that homosexuals should get married but it's fair enough if we allow civil partnerships for economic benifit.

asdasd · 18-07-2009 02:11PM

Are you not also using a slippery slope argument regarding polygamy. Anyway it's still a valid comparison.

Not really. Slippery slope arguments fail on some barrier to the slope - i.e. we dont see animals are persons in the case of bestiality. I dont see the barrier for polygamy.

MikeC101 · 18-07-2009 02:19PM

asdasd wrote: »

Not really. Slippery slope arguments fail on some barrier to the slope - i.e. we dont see animals are persons in the case of bestiality. I dont see the barrier for polygamy.

One of the biggest barriers I'd see would be the need for a lot of new legislation regarding taxation / benefits and so on for polygamous unions, along with the possible need for constitutional reform, custody issues for children in case of the union breaking up and so on.

Dudess · 18-07-2009 02:26PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

We all know that Ireland, once one of the most socially backward countries in the world, has approached the social mores of its Western European neighbours over the past 30 or so years with the decriminalisation of contraception, divorce and gay sex (decades after most other developed countries).

However, there are still things where Ireland has quite a long, long way to go before it can even dream to call itself modern.

Let's see...
Abortion still illegal

Pornography still illegal

Same sex civil unions or any official regognition of same sex relationships illegal

Blasphemy law introduced

Debtors still sent to prison

Most schools still controlled by religious orders

Grossly underfunded mental health care

No State provided childcare facilities

Get the picture? Ireland is still a pretty backward country in my opinion.:( Let's not kid ourselves and pretend that our farting about during the bubble years made us anything special. To many of our European cousins were are still a small minded and backward little island.:mad:

Not disputing how unappetising all of the above is, but I can't stand this "we" business. I'm not backwards or narrowminded and I won't put up with being told I am, or that I have to be held partially accountable for the issues you've listed - just because I happen to have been born in this country. Blame policymakers - those of us who have no tolerance for the above can hardly be blamed.

And "banana republic"? How the hell is Ireland a banana republic? I wasn't aware we lived in a dictatorship.

galwayrush · 18-07-2009 02:33PM

FFS we're so advanced . we all got iodine tablets of the government a few years back, and they are now only a few years out of date.:pac:

Fad · 18-07-2009 02:35PM

galwayrush wrote: »

FFS we're so advanced . we all got iodine tablets of the government a few years back, and they are now only a few years out of date.:pac:

And there's that issue that they wouldnt actually have ANY effect for a huge proportion of the population.

galwayrush · 18-07-2009 02:39PM

Fad wrote: »

And there's that issue that they wouldnt actually have ANY effect for a huge proportion of the population.

It would be nice if all FF's decisions were equally harmless.:rolleyes:

Kev_ps3 · 18-07-2009 03:02PM

I suggest the OP move to 90% of the other countrys in the world and see how 'backward' we are. We are a very liberal country imo.

Cjoe · 18-07-2009 03:03PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

We all know that Ireland, once one of the most socially backward countries in the world, has approached the social mores of its Western European neighbours over the past 30 or so years with the decriminalisation of contraception, divorce and gay sex (decades after most other developed countries).

However, there are still things where Ireland has quite a long, long way to go before it can even dream to call itself modern.

Let's see...
Abortion still illegal

Pornography still illegal

Same sex civil unions or any official regognition of same sex relationships illegal

Blasphemy law introduced

Debtors still sent to prison

Most schools still controlled by religious orders

Grossly underfunded mental health care

No State provided childcare facilities

Get the picture? Ireland is still a pretty backward country in my opinion.:( Let's not kid ourselves and pretend that our farting about during the bubble years made us anything special. To many of our European cousins were are still a small minded and backward little island.:mad:

Listen no country is perfect. I doubt you know the ins and outs of every other countries laws. An as previously said there the laws might be a bit backward in some cases but in general the people arent.

Abortion is something I personally could not say should or shouldnt be fully legal. Id say the majority of the country would be like that. Its a grey area when it comes to making an exact decsion. That would be the main reason for it no being fully legal.

Porn - I dont think it makes a bit of difference if it was legal or not and it doesnt make the country backward because it is illegal. We would be backward if we were throwing people in jail for it but we are not.

Same sex Civil Unions - Its now in place. Homosexuals are recognised by the state as partners and share the same rights as married hetrosexual couple. Apart from the adoption issue there is no other major issue for homosexuals in Ireland. And the adoption issue is not as black and white as most people have been saying latley ever since your one Brenda Power came out with her article and radio discussion.

Blasphemy - Every ccountry has their silly laws this is one havent heard of anyone get in trouble with it though.

Debtors - Should go to jail if you owe money simple as.

Religously controlled schools - Its what alot of people want. But the choice is there, just maybe not out in the country as much. Although most people in the country would like their child to go to a religous school in my opinion.

Mental Health - Plenty of money (THERE WAS ANYWAY) just desperate managment. Like all health care it seems.

State funded child care facilities -Alot of child care facilities are subsidised by the state.

Honestly the country is far from perfect, but it is far from backward either. None of your points point towards this. You remind me of the irish people I met travelling (in Oz more so) who told me how crap Ireland was without giving me a valid reason and who always added how it always rains here. Give it a rest lads.

thelordofcheese · 18-07-2009 03:14PM

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I suggest the OP move to 90% of the other countrys in the world and see how 'backward' we are. We are a very liberal country imo.

yes, but to you liberal is anything to the left of genghis Khan.

galwayrush · 18-07-2009 03:14PM

Cjoe wrote: »

Debtors - Should go to jail if you owe money simple as.

.

Even if the person has lost their job?, has a serious illness? Can't pay their debts because someone else won't pay them?
Quite a few people have committed suicide because of debt and the fear of prison.

asdasd · 18-07-2009 03:17PM

Cant people declare bankruptcy in Ireland? Or are we confusing debtors prisons with non-payment of fines?

ChocolateSauce · 18-07-2009 03:19PM

I wouldn't say backwards....sideways, yes, but not backwards. Although we have certainly been regressing after a peak of 2001 IMO.

thomasmi · 18-07-2009 03:22PM

and ,how would any heart care

Whiskey Devil · 18-07-2009 03:26PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

We all know that Ireland, once one of the most socially backward countries in the world, has approached the social mores of its Western European neighbours over the past 30 or so years with the decriminalisation of contraception, divorce and gay sex (decades after most other developed countries).

However, there are still things where Ireland has quite a long, long way to go before it can even dream to call itself modern.

Let's see...
Abortion still illegal

Pornography still illegal

Same sex civil unions or any official regognition of same sex relationships illegal

Blasphemy law introduced

Debtors still sent to prison

Most schools still controlled by religious orders

Grossly underfunded mental health care

No State provided childcare facilities

Get the picture? Ireland is still a pretty backward country in my opinion.:( Let's not kid ourselves and pretend that our farting about during the bubble years made us anything special. To many of our European cousins were are still a small minded and backward little island.:mad:

Abortion should never be legalised in this country.
Pornography is technically illegal, nothing more.
Same sex unions/marraige should be legalised, but gay couples should never ever be allowed to raise children. EVER.
Blasphemy law is not even worth discussing. :pac:
Most schools are not under the control of religious orders.
Mental healthcare is an issue that really needs to be addressed.
No state provided child care... so?

We're doing alright I think..

18-07-2009 03:29PM

asdasd wrote: »

Cant people declare bankruptcy in Ireland? Or are we confusing debtors prisons with non-payment of fines?

Ireland is just about the worst place to be bankrupt!
You lose almost everything, and have no financial rights for about 12 years.

asdasd · 18-07-2009 03:31PM

You lose almost everything, and have no financial rights for about 12 years.

Fair enough, that is backward then.

Cjoe · 18-07-2009 03:33PM

galwayrush wrote: »

Even if the person has lost their job?, has a serious illness? Can't pay their debts because someone else won't pay them?
Quite a few people have committed suicide because of debt and the fear of prison.

When I say people with debts I dont mean a standard mortagage but big developers. I know about the developer in galway i think it was who killed himself. Thats shocking no doubt about it. But it shouldnt deter the law from pressing charges on these people. Thay ruin peoples fortunes and lives time and again.

galwayrush · 18-07-2009 03:35PM

Cjoe wrote: »

When I say people with debts I dont mean a standard mortagage but big developers. I know about the developer in galway i think it was who killed himself. Thats shocking no doubt about it. But it shouldnt deter the law from pressing charges on these people. Thay ruin peoples fortunes and lives time and again.

Actually, i agree with you there, it always seems like prison isjust for regular joe soaps.but the big guys seem to be able to manipulate things and avoid the consequences of their greed and actions. Looks like some of them are finally being taken to task now.

mcwhirter · 18-07-2009 03:38PM

Holy Stump devotees, Ireland backward?, no way!!

Dudess · 18-07-2009 03:41PM

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

Abortion should never be legalised in this country.
Pornography is technically illegal, nothing more.
Same sex unions/marraige should be legalised, but gay couples should never ever be allowed to raise children. EVER.
Blasphemy law is not even worth discussing. :pac:
Most schools are not under the control of religious orders.
Mental healthcare is an issue that really needs to be addressed.
No state provided child care... so?

We're doing alright I think..

... in your opinion, which isn't the final word on how things should be. Just because you don't believe abortion should be legalised, and gay couples should never raise children, doesn't mean you're right. Also, I thought the discussion was on how backward Ireland is, not whether it's "doing all right".

tedstriker · 18-07-2009 03:45PM

I wouldn't say backward but I would say that we are ruled by a era of very uneducated people and as a result we are constantly being led down the wrong direction. It is changing slowly as the old bastards die off and leave politics and younger people come through. We are getting better and have plenty of positives. Every country, though, has morons and people who don't accept anything other than old fashioned stupidness.

We also seem to be happiest when we are doing badly. We don't like success. Look at how we have gotten less miserable over the last year or so:
http://www.statusireland.com/statistics/recentlychanged/40/Misery-Index-for-Ireland.html

If you want backward then go to russia or some former soviet places... they're way behind the times.

galwayrush · 18-07-2009 03:45PM

i don't think we're backward, we have lost our way though, seems like we have been guided by a blind government the past few years and they have got us lost in a deep dark forest, now the same blind people are convinced they are able to find their way out again............

Cjoe · 18-07-2009 03:59PM

We have only been making our own desicions for 80 odd years compared to alot of countries in europe so we are doing well although we can do alot better when it comes to general health service. Sure our politicians are of unbelievably poor judgement but at least our Island has in general great people with a loveable disposition.

As father dougal might say, We are a great bunch of lads really!

goldenbrown · 18-07-2009 04:08PM

part right op..but trying being gay in Poland....also our american friends will put someone in to the white house on the abortion issue alone, - such as bush, its a hot topic over there, ...

we need to have residences for our intellectually disabled citizens included in the state inspection programme....not least because of the Ryan and Leas cross reports

Ireland - Still A Backward Country?

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