Ireland - Still A Backward Country?

IvySlayer · 18-07-2009 11:26AM

I love the people calling this a backwards country, go to Africa for 6 months, then you'll appreciate how good this country actually is.

If I'm honest, it's one of the best.

thelordofcheese · 18-07-2009 11:39AM

IvySlayer wrote: »

I love the people calling this a backwards country, go to Africa for 6 months, then you'll appreciate how good this country actually is.

If I'm honest, it's one of the best.

If you were honest, you wouldn't say that.

And yes, ireland probably tops places like Iran, Hondouras and N korea, but it think it's only fair to point out the OP is talking about developed firstworld countries.
And we're pretty shocking in a lot of ways, especially of late.

DrumSteve · 18-07-2009 11:41AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

Eh? As a gay man I find that comment disingenous in the extreme. Our relationships aren't recoginsed FFS!!:mad: It is not equality and believe me, we will fight and fight until we get gay marriage.

oooooooooh, handbags at dawn.

asdasd · 18-07-2009 11:57AM

And yes, ireland probably tops places like Iran, Hondouras and N korea, but it think it's only fair to point out the OP is talking about developed firstworld countries.
And we're pretty shocking in a lot of ways, especially of late.

Actually what the OP is talking about is European countries, and even then he got it wrong. Ireland now has civil partnerships along with another 9 european countries, and there are 8 countries - in Europe - which ban marriage or civil partnerships between same same couples. The rest have no recognition of homosexual relationships.

And Europe is the most "progressive" part of the world on this ( although that is a value laden term). So Ireland, far from not being a "progressive" country, is in the top 1-2%, by population of the world.

fail, by the OP.

18-07-2009 12:04PM

Here's my two cents on these...

- Abortion still illegal
Not every woman is able to raise a child for many reasons. She might be too young or not have enough income to support a child. She may have been raped or the father may have abandoned her. So yes I believe that women should have the right to choose.

- Pornography still illegal
Is it actually illegal? I didn't know that. Hard to enforce with the internet though. Still, I wouldn't be surprised since Playboy was only legalised in 1995.

- Same sex civil unions or any official regognition of same sex relationships illegal
I was raised by my family to believe that homosexuality is an abomination so I won't discuss this one any further.

- Blasphemy law introduced
I still can't believe we introduced this crap. Are we still in the 1960s? Where there was no sex in Ireland until Gay Byrne came along? :rolleyes:

- Debtors still sent to prison
Tying up the prison system because someone didn't pay a television licence is insane. But there must still be some deterrent to make sure people pay for something they bought or used, what that should be I don't know.

- Most schools still controlled by religious orders
Is this still true?

- Grossly underfunded mental health care
I couldn't agree more. For several years I was trying to get help with depression and autism and just couldn't get what I needed.

- No State provided childcare facilities
I agree that the cost of childcare is crazy, some people are paying more than their mortgages for it.

Terry · 18-07-2009 12:09PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

You think you're being funny? You're a homophobic bigot.:mad:

Banned.

DB10 wrote: »

Sorry I just got this mental image of a hot lesbian bending over.
Thanks for that one.

Banned.

Uncle Arthur · 18-07-2009 12:19PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

i wonder would you have the same opinion on abortion IF you were a woman and IF one day you were raped :rolleyes:

gay people not disciminated against lol [head buried in sand]

i wonder would you have the same opinion on abortion if you were x weeks old in the womb and were about to be murdered :rolleyes:

abortion being banned is a progressive side to the country imo, the rest yeah is fairly backward

pisslips · 18-07-2009 12:26PM

Thaedydal wrote: »

The irish state does not track the numbers of people who are homosexual or hetrosexual or indeed asexual.

Equal rights mean I should be able to marry another adult of my choosing, rather then being told I can't marry another adult cos they have the same genitals as me.

Well what about marrying another mammal even living organism or just inanimate object?

Are you saying I can't marry another adult(thing) cos they have different genitals to me.

Also, the structures in society, like marriage, are there to benefit the growth and prosperity of the human race. How does it benefit mankind that two men exclusively have sex with each other?
I mean it was better that Oscar Wilde had 5 kids and was gay than him having no kids and marrying another man and being happier. Because now 5 kids exist which would not have existed if gay marriage were legal, perhaps.

And if you believe that it's more important that people be happy, then why not have beastiality or incest?

thelordofcheese · 18-07-2009 12:29PM

pisslips wrote: »

And if you believe that it's more important that people be happy, then why not have beastiality or incest?

Thaedydal wrote:

Equal rights mean I should be able to marry another adult of my choosing, rather then being told I can't marry another adult cos they have the same genitals as me.

reading comprehension fail.

ejmaztec · 18-07-2009 12:32PM

Karsini wrote: »

- Grossly underfunded mental health care
I couldn't agree more. For several years I was trying to get help with depression and autism and just couldn't get what I needed.

That's only going to get worse. As the country is being run by lunatics, you'd think that they would be more sympathetic towards promoting mental healthcare, instead of taking the axe to the minimal services that are provided at the moment.

Aard · 18-07-2009 12:32PM

Am I the only one who is stumped when people bring up the "well if we allow gay marriage, why not bestiality?" argument? I mean, just, wtf.

Intothesea · 18-07-2009 12:32PM

Uncle Arthur wrote: »

abortion being banned is a progressive side to the country imo, the rest yeah is fairly backward

Couldn't agree more. The day we allow for the
denial of the most fundamental of rights is the
day we can throw our collective hat at it, IMO.

G_R · 18-07-2009 12:35PM

Karsini wrote: »

- Pornography still illegal
Is it actually illegal? I didn't know that. Hard to enforce with the internet though. Still, I wouldn't be surprised since Playboy was only legalised in 1995.

This is being talked about on another thread at the mo. as far as i understand (open to correction), pornography isnt actually illegal but, it is illegal to sell a DVD/Video that hasn't been rated by IFCO and IFCO will not rate a porno.

Karsini wrote: »

- Blasphemy law introduced
I still can't believe we introduced this crap. Are we still in the 1960s? Where there was no sex in Ireland until Gay Byrne came along? :rolleyes:

Its not being introuced. It has always been there. Its a constitutional requirement. The only thing that has happened is the the blasphemy has been defined very specifically so that it would be very hard to be charged with the offence, and penalty has been changed from a prison sentence to a fine.

I still dont agree with it, i think the should be a referendum on the same day as Lisbon II to get rid of it from the constitution.

Karsini wrote: »

- Most schools still controlled by religious orders
Is this still true?

If by controlled by religious orders u mean a priest is head of the board of management - yes

if you mean priests and nuns teaching the students - very few

most schools are technically run by a church but in reality they have very little involvement in the day to day teaching or running of the school

pisslips · 18-07-2009 12:37PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

reading comprehension fail.

What? I don't get it. Adult animal, adult incest....what am I missing here. Fair enough it's hard to define an inanimate object as adult.

philologos · 18-07-2009 12:37PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

We all know that Ireland, once one of the most socially backward countries in the world, has approached the social mores of its Western European neighbours over the past 30 or so years with the decriminalisation of contraception, divorce and gay sex (decades after most other developed countries).

I'm with you so far.

JupiterKid wrote: »

However, there are still things where Ireland has quite a long, long way to go before it can even dream to call itself modern.

I disagree with you. Unless you have the view that socially liberal automatically equals more modern you cannot agree with this. Social conservatism has a time and a place within our society. Too much liberalism isn't ultimately good for a society. Boundaries need to be set not blurred.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Abortion still illegal

Pornography still illegal

Same sex civil unions or any official regognition of same sex relationships illegal

Blasphemy law introduced

Debtors still sent to prison

Most schools still controlled by religious orders

Grossly underfunded mental health care

No State provided childcare facilities

Abortion involves the denial of human rights of the unborn. I think it would be backwards to legalise it.

Pornography is not illegal in Ireland.

Same sex relationships are currently in the process of being recognised legally and I think that the Civil Partnership Bill that was drafted this year is a fair solution.

Most schools controlled by religious orders - As long as the majority of people want denominational education it should exist for the majority. Secular alternatives do need to be sought. This should be acceptable. Unless you are of the opinion that religion in itself is backwards. However whether people like or not, religion has a role in 2009, and not only just a role but an increasing role in the global picture.

I'm with you on the healthcare, however there isn't much a Government can do in this respect in a recession.

As for childcare, I am with you here but I take into account the above caveat in assessing the Government.

JupiterKid wrote: »

Get the picture? Ireland is still a pretty backward country in my opinion.:( Let's not kid ourselves and pretend that our farting about during the bubble years made us anything special. To many of our European cousins were are still a small minded and backward little island.:mad:

Fair enough. It's backwards in your opinion. I see Ireland as being extremely progressive in comparison to other countries personally. Liberalism plays with "modernity" to make it's argument, however much of what it advocates is no more modern than anything Social Conservatism advocates.

It depends how you perceive forward.

Purple Gorilla · 18-07-2009 12:40PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

If you were honest, you wouldn't say that.

And yes, ireland probably tops places like Iran, Hondouras and N korea, but it think it's only fair to point out the OP is talking about developed firstworld countries.
And we're pretty shocking in a lot of ways, especially of late.

Ireland has been a proper first world country for what...15 years now? Give or take a few years? Give the country a break..we've been playing catch-up for the last decade to the rest of the first world countries!

Aard · 18-07-2009 12:40PM

As far as the mental illness thing goes: even if we ignore the fact that it's a highly underfunded sector, it's the social attitudes that do most of the dammage. When my boyfriend lived in Belgium, when his boss used ask where he was going after work, he'd reply "to my psychiatrist". In Norway, the Prime Minister took 3 weeks off work to deal with a bout of depression. I can't see either of these happening in Ireland with a positive responce. The irony of it all is that every family has somebody who has a mental illness, it's just not talked about. I believe that before funding changes, society's attitudes need to change and realise that people with mental illnesses are not black sheep who should be left and forgotten about.

thelordofcheese · 18-07-2009 12:48PM

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Ireland has been a proper first world country for what...15 years now? Give or take a few years? Give the country a break..we've been playing catch-up for the last decade to the rest of the first world countries!

*cracks whip*
BECOME BETTER, FASTER! I SAID FASTER, DAMMIT!

TheInquisitor · 18-07-2009 12:56PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm with you so far.

Abortion involves the denial of human rights of the unborn. I think it would be backwards to legalise it.

Personally i wouldn't want someone i got pregnant accidentily or otherwise to have an aboortion, as even if we couldn't for whatever reason be capable of taking care of the child i think adoption would be the way to to as there are so many people out there trying to adopt.

However i still support a woman's right to choose as, as far as im concerned it affects women 95% and men 5%. I can't force my views on someone where it is going to change their life forever. Only they can decide.

On the rights before being born issue, its just a clump of cells until a good few months in. When the child can survive outside the womb is when i consider it having rights.

asdasd · 18-07-2009 01:01PM

Am I the only one who is stumped when people bring up the "well if we allow gay marriage, why not bestiality?" argument? I mean, just, wtf.

I suppose the idea is that if we are not to restrict marriage to men and women - moving away from traditions based on ideas of culture or religion - then we could end up with bestiality. This is a slippery slope argument, which are generally bad arguments.

On the other hand the movement away from traditional marriages could easily lead to polygamy. In fact it is hard to see the argument against polygamy ( which is worldwide, and historically more common than homosexual marriages) unless the argument is cultural - that is: we dont do that kind of thing round here.

The counter argument is that we didn't do homosexual marriages round here until recently. Therfore the argument that homosecual marriages could lead to polygamy is valid, since we have moved away from the idea that marriage is between a man and a woman, it makes sense to take that to a logical conclusion.

In the case of besitality, there are other counter arguments - the lack of personhood we grant to the animal for instance, and presumed lack of consent. Peter Singer argues for bestiality, but he sees animals as persons.

philologos · 18-07-2009 01:02PM

TheInquisitor wrote: »

However i still support a woman's right to choose as, as far as im concerned it affects women 95% and men 5%. I can't force my views on someone where it is going to change their life forever. Only they can decide.

Why should the child be automatically deprived of it's right without consideration?

TheInquisitor wrote: »

On the rights before being born issue, its just a clump of cells until a good few months in. When the child can survive outside the womb is when i consider it having rights.

This is a fallacious argument. "It doesn't look like a baby therefore it isn't". Nonsense. A human life at that stage in development is expected to appear as a clump of cells. This doesn't diminish the notion that it is human life.

mehmeh12 · 18-07-2009 01:04PM

Yeh mental illness in this country is far too stigmatized. Stigma in the sense that once people associate you with being mentally ill, they quickly blank you out of their life. If anything people under severe stress need human understanding more than anyone else.

On the other hand i am shocked how everyone in this society is accepting of the d4 attitude. By that i mean in the way in which acting superficial, callous and contemptuous of everyone else around you is a societal good in Ireland.
Why this is i don't know.

SIX PACK · 18-07-2009 01:14PM

& we dont have post codes.
a lot of back roads are a disaster
Probably the worst public transport system for a developed country
amoung other thiings:mad:

AlexderFranke · 18-07-2009 01:15PM

I am a German Ireland and Irish language fan. Therefore I have read several articles about Ireland and have been there two times, yet. These are my ten pence:
I think allowing (hard) pornography, same gender marriages, abortion, rude blasphemy and banning schools run by the church are a sign of decadency rather than progres. Abortion is simply murdering developing tiny chhildren. Open adoption or providing the possibility to rear the child is, in my opinion, the only way to solve the problem. Same sex marriages are against natural order. Especially hard pornography supports an inhuman picture of sexuality and therefore sexual crimes. It is also against human dignity to be allowed to say or show things insulting evily religious feelings. One can discuss where there is a border as is the case of pornography. I would say only erotic magazins are alright. The Chriastian faith is Europe's fundament of worths which had caused much positive in society. As long as parents want denominational schools to pass on Christian worths to their children they ought to exist. Otherwise we go towards a similar doctrine as in former communist states. I hope that Ireland never will become as decadent as many other European countries, for example the Netherlands or Germany. But I do never want such such a situation as in Iran or Saudi Arabia, either, where gays and lesbians are executed and spreading "unislamic" contents is punished by hurting severely the body.
Indeed I have read about unsufficient health care in Ireland. There has to occur improvement. There is another point which is very backward in Ireland: Public transports. There are many cities which can't be reached after 19 p.m. Even at Iarnród Éireann there are lines where the last InterCity goes at 9 p.m. In other countries main cities have links into the night or even round the clock. Today you should be able to travel from Castlebar to Galway at 10 or 11 p.m., for example.In rural areas public transports can operate by call.
And the last point is the hard discussed issue, yes, the Irish language. I do not understand that the Irish people have not succeeded in spreading good knowledge of Irish within long years of teaching it at school since the 20s and after several campaigns. Other countries show that it is possible to teach and spread a regional language effectively, for example Wales or Catalonia. In Wales and Catalonia language shift has been stopped.
But a real backward country by now is Germany. Until today there is nearly no awareness and revvival of local heritage except in some Southern areas. Furthermore there is hardly more discrimination against disabled than in other European countries. The situation on the working market and acceptance in the society towards people outside of the mainstream is one of the worst in Europe. Especially conservative people and conservative Christians are more and more stigmatized in the German society.
With regards, Alex

18-07-2009 01:19PM

SIX PACK wrote: »

& we dont have post codes.

I don't consider this a major issue. An Post already have excellent OCR systems for mail forwarding so they aren't really necessary, well not for postal services anyway.

AlexderFranke wrote: »

There is another point which is very backward in Ireland: Public transports. There are many cities which can't be reached after 19 p.m. Even at Iarnród Éireann there are lines where the last InterCity goes at 9 p.m. In other countries main cities have links into the night or even round the clock. Today you should be able to travel from Castlebar to Galway at 10 or 11 p.m., for example.In rural areas public transports can operate by call.

Yes, public transport in Ireland is a joke. There's no buses from Tralee to Listowel after 7pm for example, and that's just one of many but I'll keep those for Commuting and Transport.

TheInquisitor · 18-07-2009 01:22PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Why should the child be automatically deprived of it's right without consideration?

This is a fallacious argument. "It doesn't look like a baby therefore it isn't". Nonsense. A human life at that stage in development is expected to appear as a clump of cells. This doesn't diminish the notion that it is human life.

Because if it cannot survive without being inside its mother it is not a child

I agree it is human life but it doesn't feel, it doesn't think. A growing clump of cells is still a clump of cells. Until like 7 months in when it can survive an early birth it doesn't have any rights as far as im concerned.

Would you support an abortion is the woman was raped and impregnated or if it seriously endangered the life of the mother?

Nolanger · 18-07-2009 01:24PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

Let's see...
Abortion still illegal

Pornography still illegal

Same sex civil unions or any official regognition of same sex relationships illegal

Blasphemy law introduced

Debtors still sent to prison

Most schools still controlled by religious orders

Grossly underfunded mental health care

No State provided childcare facilities

Don't forget firearms are still illegal

philologos · 18-07-2009 01:27PM

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Because if it cannot survive without being inside its mother it is not a child

Another fallacy. A child cannot survive without it's mother outside of the womb either. Should we promote infanticide?

TheInquisitor wrote: »

I agree it is human life but it doesn't feel, it doesn't think. A growing clump of cells is still a clump of cells. Until like 7 months in when it can survive an early birth it doesn't have any rights as far as im concerned.

I personally think the appearance of the biological structure is irrelevant. Whether from the first to the last week, they are about equivalent. All it is that one is less developed than the other. If we applied this reasoning to our society we'd have chaos. Why can't we kill toddlers, they aren't human, they are less developed than us? Seriously, this thinking is utterly dangerous.

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Would you support an abortion is the woman was raped and impregnated or if it seriously endangered the life of the mother?

I support the current Irish legal definition. If it seriously endangered the life of the mother the only reasonable pro-life view is to save as many lives as possible. If two will die otherwise, it is best to save one. In any other case I am totally in disagreement.

TheInquisitor · 18-07-2009 01:28PM

Nolanger wrote: »

Don't forget firearms are still illegal

Their not illegal they are just heavily licensed. Although you can get pretty much anything if you are trusted. I have been shown a sniper rifle that cost 10000 and used by the German special forces that the guy used for shooting rabbits. Some sight on it. Could see clearly for over 1k

El Weirdo · 18-07-2009 01:31PM

AlexderFranke wrote: »

These are my ten pence:

Germany can't be that bad if you have that sort of money to throw around on opinions...:pac:

Ireland - Still A Backward Country?

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