advice on future appreciated!

pandas · 22-06-2009 4:53pm #1

I am just looking for other peoples opinions or advice. I am female, aged 21, based in Galway.

I have a 2:1 Arts Degree and a 2:1 LLB both from NUIG. I graduated last October. I have since attempted 8 and gotten 6 of the FE-1 exams..so i have two left to do.

Since finishing my LLB last June I had paid work experience in a Solicitors in Galway City with a hope of managing to wrangle an apprenticeship out of it. I finished my LLB and started this work experience having attempted none of my FE-1 exams. I worked until September then left to do my first four exams. I rang them afterwards and they took me back on in November doing a three day week, which I was happy with because any experience is better than no experience. Then I left again to do my final four FE-1 exams. After completing them I rang the office again and they got back to me saying they simpy didnt have the work, that since I had left to do my exams they had to bring the whole office down to a three day week, all 6 Solicitors and 4 Secretarys. Leaving me now on the dole trying to find a job.

So my dilemma:

Firstly, what kind of a job? It would look awful bad on my CV to go from a Solicitors office to waitressing..this is me thinking in terms of future applications to firms for an apprenticeship. But yet I cant find any other kind of a job!

Secondly, I am only 21 and I want to go travelling. Should I do it now while there is a recession and then do the remaining two exams when I get back and then look for an apprenticeship. Or should i just do them now and stick with it and maybe do a Masters in September.

Thirdly, if so..what kind of Masters? Does it not mean I will be restricting myself in terms of being only able to apply to firms who specialised in the area I did my masters in when applying for an apprenticeship?

Or.. should I just get out of here entirely and try qualify in another country like the UK or do the New York Bar exams? Which would mean I have wasted the last year entirely doing the FE-1 exams.

Getting out of this area is not an option, I have invested too much in it at this stage to just simply give up now! I would really appreciate another persons perspective of my situation and what they think I should do.

legal eagle 1 · 22-06-2009 6:50pm

I feel your pain

1. I think any kind of job at this stage is worth a go, having a big gap in employment on your cv is worse than putting down that you spent your time waitressing. The fact is everyone knows the way the economy is and any kind of job these days is a bonus.
2. If you really want to go travelling I would do it now, you have 4 years left to finish off your fe1's, if i could go back i wish i never finished all my FE1's as i'm left watching the clock tick away. Your exams will still be here when you come back and the break away may give you new motivation and a new prespective on things.
3.I personally am not a big fan of masters simply because i dont know at this stage what area of the law i really wanna practice in, i don't think i'll know until i'm actually practising but, if you want to do a course, i would advise you to do either the Law Society's Diploma in Employment Law( an area of the law which is growing in significance) or the Diploma in Arbitration. Both these courses are practical and I dont think any firm would see them as a disadvantage. That said both these courses are expensive so this may be a hindrance to you.
4. Like yourself the thought of having wasted a year doing the FE1's weighs against moving to another country to qualify, but its no harm to look into it.
At the end of the day though it is whatever suits you the most and whichever you are happiest doing. Wish you lots of luck with it;)

servicecharge · 22-06-2009 8:57pm

Ok you need to ask yourself if this is an investment or the rest of your life.

Unless it is your dream to be a solicitor, get out now while your investment is small.

I know so many people who are only now figuring out what a miserable existence most solicitors occupy. You still are young, if you are asking this question now I bet in five years time when you are probably qualifying you will be asking again. Only with so much more invested.

Consider other career options.

New York and America is laying-off lawyers as much as we are. Same goes for the UK (Times article last week predicted another 10,000 solicitors to be laid off, on top of the same already in the UK). Go on the www.rollonfriday.com discussion and see what lawyers are saying, especially the training board.

If you like law consider a fast track graduate job in the UK police forces. You could do very well there and then move into Police Ombudmans work and then other types of Ombudsman jobs. It would also leave you free to return to law at any time with great knowledge that would get you jobs easily. that's what I'd be doing, unfortunately I'm in too deep!

In relation to your other questions: it really doesn't matter what job you do. Masters degrees are great if you can afford one, but a PG diploma in business/accounting/language/tech would be a much better route. Firms like people with other skills. With a tech related post grad you would be attractive to firms with patent/IP work. Similarly a finance diploma would be attractive to commerical firms.

Travel now, things will be more stable when you come home. It might open your eyes some more as well and you might consider my earlier advice.

Best of luck

legal eagle 1 · 22-06-2009 9:12pm

If you like law consider a fast track graduate job in the UK police forces. You could do very well there and then move into Police Ombudmans work and then other types of Ombudsman jobs. It would also leave you free to return to law at any time with great knowledge that would get you jobs easily. that's what I'd be doing, unfortunately I'm in too deep!

Do you mind me asking how you go about doing this? Is there a website on this? Do you go through an application process for it?

Laura79 · 25-06-2009 2:57pm

Hi Panda,

I worked in a different job before starting my traineeship, also my degree and masters are not law and I really don't think that's been held against me.

As previous posters have said, I don't think in this climate it can be held against you that you took a non-legal job to pay the bills. If, however, you can afford to go travelling, then now might be the time to do it.

The only advice I'd offer you on doing a master's is to be sure you do one in an area you are interested in and not one that will get you a traineeship. When I qualified I went into a really specialised area that I absolutely hated and ended up taking time out to get my head together. Realised what I really wanted, and set up a general practice with a friend - no money, but don't regret it!!

Hope some of this helps.

Good luck!
Laura

legallad · 25-06-2009 8:24pm

hi pandas,

I understand where you are coming from, you have invested time and money in this career choice and you dont want to give up without a fight. I believe you should stick with this. I am one of the lucky few who have managed to get an offer for a traineeship during this round of offers but i know i wouldnt have given up if this hadnt been the case.

I agree with Legal Eagle with regards to masters. I personally wouldnt bother doing one unless you are stuck (and if you do one perhaps do it it england, these work out cheaper and are looked upon favourably). Even who hasnt gotten a job seem to be doing a masters now, so what we will have is a saturation of law graduates with fe1s and a masters. You need to set yourself apart from the crowd.

There are several ways you can do this. Firstly is securing a summer internship with a firm (english or irish) this is a foot in the door and is a big plus when applying to other firms as it shows us have experienced working in the area. You also have valuable work experience already so this should work in your favour.
Secondly after talking to HR people and partners in law firms having something such as going on the Washington Ireland Programme (wip.ie) can actually swing you a training contract, so maybe do some research into things such as these to set you apart from the crowd.

If you prefer smaller firms i would begin cold calling to all the law firms in galway with your cv saying that you would be willing to do even a day a week, when things pick up in the economy this could also act as a foot in the door.

If I were you i would consider going travelling now for a bit and then next summer apply for some of the aforementioned activities and pass the two remaining fe1s.

Would you consider going to england or would your preference be ireland?

Nolanger · 27-06-2009 2:21pm

The Law Society fears solicitors left out of work by the property market crash could end up "wasting their talent" by taking jobs as shop assistants and burger-flippers.

The society said huge numbers had taken up its retraining programme in a bid to avoid taking "inappropriate" work in the recession.

The aim is to direct the hundreds of out-of-work solicitors away from the collapsed property law sector, into other legal fields.

The society's director general Ken Murphy warned that an upsurge in work in areas like litigation and debt would not be able to make up for the losses.

Asked about reports that trained solicitors were applying for work in shops and restaurants, he said: "That may well be occurring, but we are offering in the society a service to help solicitors with career change, so we would hope that that level of waste of talent wouldn't occur."

Mr Murphy said while the perception was that the rate of economic retreat was slowing, there was no sign of "green shoots" for legal work.

But he stressed the profession was fighting back with its efforts to ensure solicitors found work that matched their skills.

Disappeared

"The solicitor's profession has been badly hit. We have regrettably moved from a situation where there was full employment only 18 months ago to a stage where there are hundreds of solicitors out of work.

"The fact is that property-related legal work, both residential and commercial, has almost completely disappeared.

"What is most shocking is the speed and severity of the collapse due to the lack of money in the economy.

"Not all areas have been affected to the same extent -- litigation work and work related in particular to debt has shot up, as has employment law advice. Criminal law is largely unaffected."

The Law Society recently took on a career development advisor to help solicitors in what it calls "career transition".

"We are encouraging people to think beyond traditional private practice because it's impossible to see how all the solicitors who are unemployed will be able to find that kind of work".

- Andrew Phelan, Evening Herald

nuac · 27-06-2009 6:23pm

This poster is just 21! - still time to rethink careers. Law as a career getting tougher and more unattractive by the day.

Suggest that coldcalling solicitors firms is a waste of time. Practically all are downsizing or retrenching in various ways.

McCrack · 27-06-2009 10:56pm

Nolanger that's tabold ****e, do you have any opinion yourself?

dats_right · 27-06-2009 11:08pm

McCrack wrote: »

Nolanger that's tabold ****e, do you have any opinion yourself?

I'm in the profession myself, and I don't consider the post to be too far wide of the mark at all to be honest.

mezery2008 · 28-06-2009 6:13pm

Totally agree - being a solicitor is not the glamerous profession you think it is - particulaly in te current climate. I am a qualified solicitor and have just left a job with a large firm. The profession is so oversubscribed that solicitors 'lucky' enough to have jobs are being exploited by employers. I intend changing career myself and would highly recommend it to you. Go travelling now and reflect on whether you really want this. You are only 21 and can alway go back if things improve in the area.

legal eagle 1 · 28-06-2009 7:12pm

Mezery2008 what type profession are you going try and enter into now just out of curiousity??

ALincoln · 29-06-2009 12:30am

Is a 2.1 law degree good?

Dante09 · 29-06-2009 11:36am

that would depend on the type of 2.1
there is a difference between a 61 and a 69.

ALincoln · 29-06-2009 1:34pm

Oh I see. Thanks very much!

So basically the 65-69 bracket is a good 2.1, while the 60-64 bracket is...not so much?

legal eagle 1 · 29-06-2009 1:57pm

Obviously the closer you are to the 70 mark (1:1) than the better your 2:1 degree looks, its common sense really

Dante09 · 29-06-2009 2:05pm

ALincoln wrote: »

Oh I see. Thanks very much!

So basically the 65-69 bracket is a good 2.1, while the 60-64 bracket is...not so much?

no, 60-64 is a respectable grade by all standards. Above that is generally considered to be a very good result. Needless to say, not even 70+ will come even close to guaranteeing app'ships these days.

legal eagle 1 · 29-06-2009 2:07pm

Needless to say, not even 70+ will come even close to guaranteeing app'ships these days.

So very true

Amazotheamazing · 29-06-2009 3:35pm

Back on topic, I really think the OP should reconsider her career options. Even reports last week were saying the Irish economy might never recover to Celtic Tiger levels, there's going to be unemployment in all the professions for the foreseeable future. If you want to work in Ireland, I'm not sure law is the best place to be at the minute.

Nolanger · 29-06-2009 6:14pm

McCrack wrote: »

Nolanger that's tabold ****e, do you have any opinion yourself?

Yes - serves you right for studying law when most of those jobs were Celtic Tiger temporary ones that wouldn't last

.

Amazotheamazing · 29-06-2009 6:35pm

Nolanger wrote: »

Yes - serves you right for studying law when most of those jobs were Celtic Tiger temporary ones that wouldn't last .

Same is true of every profession, I wonder do architects and engineers have similar threads on their forums?

Nolanger · 29-06-2009 7:52pm

Well architects and engineers didn't see a boom in college courses during the Celtic Tiger. Every third-rate college here was offering law qualifications. They even had radio adverts to study law! Also engineering is quite difficult and most Arts graduates would not be able to retrain in that area.

legal eagle 1 · 29-06-2009 8:07pm

Yes - serves you right for studying law when most of those jobs were Celtic Tiger temporary ones that wouldn't last .

Thats not a very helpful comment, what career may i ask are you in??

Nolanger · 29-06-2009 8:26pm

IT.

legal eagle 1 · 29-06-2009 8:35pm

Obviously not law

How did i know! i dont think you really are in a position to criticise us people who studied law!

serves you right for studying law

Some of us here have worked sooooo hard to get where we are and it is not our fault the bottom has fallen out of the economy, im sure if the IT sector was in as much trouble as the legal sector you wouldn't want me coming onto your forum saying it serves you right!! Be considerate of the people your talking to :rolleyes:

Nolanger · 29-06-2009 9:07pm

Hope you accept my deepest apologies and I concur that it's no-one's fault that you were all fooled by the Celtic Tiger into thinking that there were lots of permanent law vacancies for everyone in the audience. I'm off to bed now - have to get up for work tomorrow.

legal eagle 1 · 29-06-2009 9:11pm

Karma has a way of catching up to people remember that

pandas · 01-07-2009 4:22pm

I know I am only 21 years of age but reconsidering my career path is not an option for me this is what I want to do this is what I have my heart set on etc.. and yes I know it isn't the glamorous life style people think it is I have practical work experience in this area I know it is a hard slog at the best of times. but I have invested too much in this now to go changing my mind and my experience of the work hasn't put me off it!

I am just confused as to what exactly my next move is or rather should be.. I don't want to mess it up!

I would consider England definitely but in my LLB I didn't do Admin Law or English Land Law as I was working full time during the day so I couldn't have attended them.. from what I can tell without them subjects you have to do an extra year anyway over there.. I haven't had a chance to look into costs yet in UK but I would imagine they would be significant!
I appreciate the replies!

Wheely · 01-07-2009 5:06pm

I suppose if money isn't that big of a barrier, I would recommend the New York Bar. I'm one of the luckier ones who got in just before things went down the pan. I'm about to start my traineeship in Sept in Blackhall, but I'll also be using the ime to study for the new york bar exam at the end of February, it'll probably take most of the fun out of PPC-1 but in the current climate you can't be qualified enough.

And like yourself panda, I'd ignore people telling you to change career, I didn't go into law because i was duped by a property bubble etc, i did it because its what i want to do and of course having done two degrees, 6/8 very tough professional exams, if its something you really want to do, stay at it.

Incidentally, to after your LLB you can sit the NY Bar, then sit the QLLT and you'll actually qualify as a solicitor far quicker than sitting 8 fe-1s and doing a 2 and a half year apprenticeship. Our way of qualifying is distinctly Oirish.:rolleyes:

pandas · 01-07-2009 11:26pm

Wheely wrote: »

I suppose if money isn't that big of a barrier, I would recommend the New York Bar.

how much is it to sit the New York Bar?? Are you doing any course for the Bar exams or just studying on your own? I know the Independent colleges course is like €4,500. are they really really tough or similar to FE-1's?? Where do the exams take place? Does it take long to complete?? I don't know where to get info on it as of yet as it was only an ad hoc idea as I was posting initially but if it is as quick as you say and doesn't require a traineeship then I would defintely consider it!

Thanks for your post it was one that I really enjoyed and gave me some encouragement and a positive outlook on my future for first time in months!!

legal eagle 1 · 01-07-2009 11:52pm

Hey OP did you try looking up Friarylaw.ie? There a company that deal in preparing people for these exams. I know they are holding introductory meetings in Galway on 17th and 28th of July about the new launch of the New York Bar programme in Galway. I think it may be very useful as you can ask them all about the exams etc and about their advance study programme for it. Might be worth a try :rolleyes:
The exams are held in the US on two consecutive days on the last Tuesday and Wednesday of February and July and they comprise of alot of different elements but, all of this info can be found on Friarylaw.ie, I know there course is bout four and a half thousand but once you pass the exams you can be an american attorney

I also second your thanks to Wheely for that post, i think its been one of the first positive things i've heard in months as well, we hear far too many negatives and comments about giving up on our career choice that its nice to have a bit of encouragment instead

skyhighflyer · 02-07-2009 12:54am

Well, I'll try to give you some more encouragement

If you want a low-cost way to do the NY bar, and are very motivated, I'd go online and snag a recent set of Bar-Bri books off eBay. Bar-Bri are the most well-known prep course for the NY bar, in fact Friary Law uses the same materials if I recall correctly. The only difference is you should get a good set of materials for around €500 as opposed to forking out €4.5k for the prep course here. Think of it as the rough equivalent of buying second-hand FE-1 prep manuals as opposed to taking the course.

However, if I were you I'd go travelling, go volunteering, do an internship abroad, do a traineeship in one of the EU institutions, get some work experience in a different industry, basically anything that will be a talking-point on your CV. The larger corporate law firms love that.

Also don't forget that any kind of work experience can be beneficial to finding an apprenticeship as long as you spin it right. For example, at an interview if questioned on work experience as a waitress, you could say how it showed you could deal with people, that you have a committed work ethic, and can keep yourself motivated while doing menial tasks (something you'll be doing as a trainee solicitor anyway)

I wouldn't consider having the FE-1s done as meaning you've too much invested in Ireland to keep you going elsewhere. You're 21 for crying out loud, well below the median age for most trainee intakes!

legal eagle 1 · 02-07-2009 11:42am

snag a recent set of Bar-Bri books off eBay.

Do you have any idea how many manuals you would need to buy? Looking up ebay and cant seem to find any anywhere! Is there anywhere else you could buy them?

pandas · 02-07-2009 11:44am

skyhighflyer wrote: »

I wouldn't consider having the FE-1s done as meaning you've too much invested in Ireland to keep you going elsewhere. You're 21 for crying out loud, well below the median age for most trainee intakes!

I know I could easily switch to trying to qualify in a different jurisdiction but there has been a lot of money as well as time invested in doing the FE1 exams too at the same time. So I feel it would be a waste to just give up on them.

In saying that I am very interested in the New York Bar. I wonder how hard they are relative to the FE-1's??

Any suggestions on how I would go about getting an internship abroad or anything that would be a talking point on my CV. I'm not being lazy and not doing any research myself, I just really have no idea where to start looking!

I looked into that Washington Ireland Programme mentioned above and from what I can gather from their website you have to be registered in a college to apply for it. I am not.

Thanks for all your help!

legal eagle 1 · 02-07-2009 11:52am

Look up Projects-abroad.org, they do loads of legal and human rights internships in loads of different countries from china to malawi to south africa and vary from one month to six months, now they are expensive but they look absolutely class and in a way you could combine some experience with your travelling time

im looking to do one in February in South Africa where you intern with the Legal aid board and it looks like a once in a lifetime opportunity, may not even come back

Wheely · 02-07-2009 2:16pm

Ive been doing some research over the last two days on NY bar prep courses as Im doing it in feb here's what Ive come up with

Friary are the market leader, clocking in at between 4500 to 5000 depending on what sort of course you take. Status probably comes from the fact that they were the first organization in Ireland to offer such a course. Only lectures as far as i can tell are thru video link tho there is academics/attorneys to mark mock papers etc

Independent colleges are new in the game, started by val corbett from griffith and have actually poached most of griffiths lecturers from whatr i hear. They have live lectures and claim to be the only such course in the country to offer such a service. They also do mock exams. They also boast a 100% pass rate on last years Feb sitting. Thats said 100% could be 8 people for all i know. Their course is 4500, they also offer for 1500 notes and materials without any form of backup etc

In griffith 1500 will get you notes materials access to micromash, whci as far as i can tell for the new york bar is the most invaluable tool, all other course offer it, you can also do essay questions and send them in to be corrected etc and have access to their library lexis, JSTOR etc

I haven't heard of Bri-bar but I'll certainly check it out.

TBH at the moment im leaning towards griffith, i already have student loans and will bge paying for this myself so money is a factor. Im not gonna fork out upwards of 4k and they offer the best package for 1500. The only difference between hat and the more expensive packages seems to be lectures and as im sure you know from studying law, lectures are over-rated. A bad lecturer is nothing more than a hour wasted, i personally went to very little lectures in college and still manage to get a first, the majority of your work is down to you, in the library and at a desk in your bedroom or wherever. Its not complex mathematics or rocket science and there are very few concepts which are so difficult that you need someone to explain them to you. If you can read and have the requisite self discipline you'll be fine. I didnt use a prep course for the FE-1's either, I did however source the notes from Independent, and this being NY and federal law, id say its pretty crucial to get some set of notes from somewhere.

Ill certainly check out that Bri-bar option, but as Im sure you all know from the FE-1's up to date notes are also a necessity. USSC hears a lot more cases every year than the Irish supreme court, consequently law changes there far more frequently than here.

Your thanks are welcome and DO keep it up, if you've a passion for it and an aptitude you'll be fine.

Incidentally if anyone is interested in going for the griffith course i'd be more than willing to split the cost of it, maybe make a few copies of the notes and keep our costs down.

Best of luck with everything panda, hope you stick with it!

legal eagle 1 · 02-07-2009 2:38pm

Hey wheely, you've been doing as much research as me, i hadnt looked into Griffith College course though yet(that was this evenings plan of action

), so let me get this straight for 1500 you get all the materials and study notes needed to do the bar exam in feb? That sounds like just what im after, im a bit weary of buying notes off ebay incase i end up with the wrong ones :rolleyes: Have you found out anything on how to actually register to sit the exam, like how many months in advance do u need to do it?

Wheely · 02-07-2009 4:54pm

legal eagle 1 wrote: »

Hey wheely, you've been doing as much research as me, i hadnt looked into Griffith College course though yet(that was this evenings plan of action ), so let me get this straight for 1500 you get all the materials and study notes needed to do the bar exam in feb? That sounds like just what im after, im a bit weary of buying notes off ebay incase i end up with the wrong ones :rolleyes: Have you found out anything on how to actually register to sit the exam, like how many months in advance do u need to do it?

Everything you need to know is here

http://www.nybarexam.org/

and for the mbe

http://www.ncbex.org/multistate-tests/mbe/

Registration for the February sitting is in November so still loads of time left. Yeah Griffith seems to be the best value for 1500, its a better package than Independent offer for the same price anyway. I'd also be wary of buying notes of E-bay, could be out of date etc, I'd say Griffith is where i'll spend my money in this regard.

Wheely · 02-07-2009 4:58pm

Also panda, the volunteer/intern thing is invaluable, i did a 6 month internship with Amnesty International when i came out of college, fantastic experience, and a huge talking point in the interviews i did for the big corporate firms after. Really stands out on a cv, someone who's willing to work hard for free will probably work much harder for a paycheck, interviewers think it shows initiative, drive etc. Highly recommended and there are plenty of outfits that are happy to have someone talented work for free.

Wheely · 02-07-2009 4:59pm

Griffith course info

http://www.gcd.ie/index.jsp?1nID=106&2nID=116&3nID=210&nID=255&aID=303

legallad · 03-07-2009 3:08pm

I have been reading through the last two pages of comments from Wheely and legaleagle and i must say that the new york bar sounds very interesting.

Just a few question: How many subjects is one required to syudy and pass? What are the advantages of doing the new york bar if you are going to qualify in ireland and have to complete a traineeship here first? Does anyone have any ideas of the job prospects in america once you have completed the bar exams, as in is it in a similar situation to Ireland at present?

Finally just want to say thanks to the aforementioned Wheely and legaleagle, your comments have been very informative.

Spaulding · 04-08-2009 5:20pm

hi all,

i was wondering if someone would be able to give me a list of the Barbri books and others that i would need to help me pass the new york bar exam. i have decided to have a go off it without doing one of the prep courses. there seems to be quite alot of these books for sale on ebay and amazon but i dont have a clue which ones i really need. there seems to be so many. i would really appreciate any suggestions.

thanks in advance!!

advice on future appreciated!

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