Last few days for scumbags crinimals

Prof.Badass · 01-07-2009 05:14PM

bernardo mac wrote: »

Maybe,at last ,the State has declared war on Crime.

ah bless. And then when they're done they can all go back to cowen's house, just on time for tea :rolleyes:.

What do you think gaurds have been doing up till now?

If you think this bill is gonna solve any problems you're wrong. Why do you think these gangs exist, for the fun of it?

No, they make **** loads of money, the type someone on minimum wage could only ever dream of having.
For every one you take out theres a hundred more waiting to get a slice of the pie.

How many people do you want to lock up?

The us has ten times the % prison population that we have and some of the toughest laws around but yet gangs continue to wreak havoc there.

Maybe taking a step back and looking at the alternatives would be more apropriate than just blindly ploughing ahead.

Dragan · 01-07-2009 05:15PM

SouthKerry wrote: »

Yeah its great news wish i was a guard myself to get a few scumbags off the street.

Too short?

cornbb · 01-07-2009 05:18PM

This is a crude and misguided piece of legislation that sets a dangerous precedent and goes against the basic principles of any modern justice system. It'll basically allow for the conviction of people without any real evidence whatsoever. Yes, this bill empowers the Gardai but it does so by basically letting them bypass the most important principles of the justice system and will allow them to potentially convict people on a whim. Yes, there are plenty of dangerous scumbags out there that need to be locked up but this is not the way to deal with them. The gardai should be given the power and resources to find and catch criminals, but this bill is like giving them atom bombs to catch sharks when torpedoes would suffice...

Mark my words, 10 or 15 years from now some gross miscarriage of justice will be uncovered and we will find out that some innocent man got locked up because he looked at a garda the wrong way.

ShooterSF · 01-07-2009 05:38PM

I do wonder whn I get cynical of things if it's a sign I'm getting older. Every generation seems to think things were better in their days. A few instances in Navan over the last few months have shocked me and where still a pretty quiet town.
However my main worry here is that it seems what level of evidence constitutes "proven guilty" is becoming less and less. I have friends in the guards and they are as prone to human error as the next person.

Dinter · 01-07-2009 05:51PM

This is a law that I would prefer to see repealed due to proven charges of abuse of power than never introduced on the small chance it might be abused.

Sparks · 01-07-2009 06:08PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

people giving out about this - what do you think we should do? NOT get tougher on crime?

Raise income taxes to pay for more Gardai, more Garda man-hours and more Garda equipment, and then put those Gardai out into the field for those man-hours, with that equipment instead of sitting in courtrooms twiddling their thumbs waiting to appear in court for days on end, or back in the station doing secretarial work, or any one of the other myriad places that they're assigned to that are basicly wastes of a rather expensive resource.

Scratching a new law on a book isn't going to help when the people the law is supposed to control (a) don't bother reading new laws; (b) may not be able to read those new laws if they could be bothered trying to; and (c) wouldn't follow those new laws anyway, which means we need more enforcement anyway, and we're right back to where we came in...

DubMedic · 01-07-2009 06:23PM

Dragan wrote: »

Too short?

You don't need height anymore, to train in Templemore.

:pac:

.

FruitLover · 01-07-2009 06:23PM

NilByMouth wrote: »

you think all tracksuit wearing people are scum.

Have you ever met a decent person who goes around in a tracksuit all day?

Spiritoftheseventies · 01-07-2009 06:26PM

Yes one must always get suspicious when an legislation is rushed through. And why is leglistlation rushed through. Because they stalled in the first place.

Spiritoftheseventies · 01-07-2009 06:27PM

Jimmy Saville used to wear tracksuits. maybe we could start a new thread here. Good guys in tracksuits!

Dinter · 01-07-2009 06:28PM

bayviewclose wrote: »

Yes one must always get suspicious when an legislation is rushed through. And why is leglistlation rushed through. Because they stalled in the first place.

Nope it's being rushed through because they want to go on their summer holidays.

Executive Steve · 01-07-2009 06:42PM

Sand wrote: »

Judges and lawyers love trying to talk down to and make fools of guards in their courtrooms.

Why do you think THAT is?

Kama · 01-07-2009 06:58PM

A competent lawyer or judge wouldn't bother, they just allow the guards to make fools of themselves...

stovelid · 01-07-2009 07:23PM

SouthKerry wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0630/crime.html
Best news ive heard in years, basically all those pure dog **** pathetic excuse for human beings AKA tracksuit wearing pieces of filth scumbags that are a member of any gang wil go to prision when this new law is rushed through, so i would expect to see all those limerick and dublin hoods off to prision even if they havent commited a crime :D:D great news but its a petty they didnt go further and take there kids off them them and put them up for adoption to give them some hope in life, bascially i think the Guards and army should be allowed to pick up any scumbag piece of filth, there easy to spot with there tracksuits and white runners.

Henceforth, thy name shall be Weimar.

fly_agaric · 01-07-2009 07:27PM

The govt. are always trying to fix things by drafting new laws. They are in awe of law and the legal profession (e.g. nonsense over taking the pension levy from the judges) - which I think leads them to believe they can fix everything with new legislation.

Back on planet earth there will be no money for new prison spaces and the gards are not going to be recruiting new members for quite some time.

edit: should probably have said all Irish politicians (...who are not lawyers themselves!) are in awe of the legal profession & think the sun shines out of their arses.

An Fear Aniar · 01-07-2009 07:32PM

It would be a sad day when someone goes to prison on the basis of another person's opinion - no matter how well qualified they might be.

Frightening prospect.

.

johnnyskeleton · 01-07-2009 07:53PM

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

people giving out about this - what do you think we should do? NOT get tougher on crime?

I think we should actually try to get tougher on crime rather than simply passing more and more legislation. More legislation just makes it harder to police and harder to prosecute. But actually trying to get tougher on crime requires money.

topper75 · 01-07-2009 07:56PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Except he's right and you're making a brazen appeal to fear.

Brazen appeal to fear? So the intimidation scenario I made up is something that 'might happen'. The horrible thing is - it IS actually happening in the real world. I don't know much about the West Dublin gangs apart from what I read in the news like all of us. However, I am Limerick City born and bred. The scenario I described is all too real.

The cops' technology or force reform etc - these are red herrings. This isn't a law against the assembly of people as some posters are suggesting. Such a misleading suggestion IS a brazen appeal to fear. These laws are for gangs, and remedy the current problem where gang bosses issue decrees whilst removed from the eventual deed. They are not 'draconian'. LOL. The existing legislation couldn't deal with this loophole the gangs were exploiting. You want evidence/witnesses - don't you read the news? Have you not heard any witness intimidation/jury intimidation stories?

The 'civil liberties' brigade are nowhere to be seen when Donna, Shane and Roy were lying on the ground in a pool of their own blood. They were nowhere to be seen when the families gathered in tears around gaping graves. Not their problem somehow. The lose a lot of respect for their selective protests. They are the tail that tries to wag the dog. To hell with them.

I stand by these laws passed by a democratically elected parliament. The Irish Council for Civil Liberties can put up a candidate for the next Dáil if they want - but until then they have ZERO mandate. They tend to come from privileged ill informed backgrounds. They have an chip on their shoulders with the cops or authority in general and arrogantly consider this struggle to be more important than the safety of ordinary everyday people who are genuinely affected by gangs' activity/presence in suburban estates.

topper75 · 01-07-2009 08:06PM

My name is URL wrote: »

Anyone that thinks that signing away a degree of your civil liberty for the purpose of apprehending a tiny minority of criminals is a small minded prat

Very hard to argue against such convincing rhetoric. Defo a Boards Post of the Year candidate.

topper75 · 01-07-2009 08:10PM

bobbyjoe wrote: »

Most laws end up being abused in the end.

I don't know what you are saying here Bobby Joe. Which laws were abused in the end? Any examples? I am concerned that there would be any law abused in the end, let alone 'most'.

Are you sure you are not just expressing fear that this new legislation might be used against you? Group of guards might call around and charge you with being in a gang, just for the laugh, bored down the station like?

My name is URL · 01-07-2009 08:18PM

topper75 wrote: »

I don't know what you are saying here Bobby Joe. Which laws were abused in the end? Any examples? I am concerned that there would be any law abused in the end, let alone 'most'.

Define 'abuse'... It may not be directly used against someone.

How many gang members are investigated currently? The Guards know most of them, they know what they're guilty of. It's up to the courts and prison service to make sure the criminals are locked up and kept out of public life.

Why give more power to the Gardai when inevitably the criminals will be released early or not convicted at all because of loopholes in other areas?

That's abuse too as far as I'm concerned, and a bloody waste of time.

topper75 · 01-07-2009 08:24PM

The gardai have the same powers of arrest as before. What has changed is that being in a gang is now a crime.

If we refuse to acknowledge the gangs in our legislation, then you have a scenario where the hitman goes down and that is the end of the story. The dogs in the street know the hitman was hired by a gang but as far as the old legal situation was concerned, the wrongdoer has been caught and that is supposed to the end of it. Such a situation was clearly not acceptable and they have remedied that.

AdamusAdonis · 01-07-2009 08:31PM

How many times have yee heard the words: "... was known to the gardai" in the news?
In my personal experience, those words have come up in the majority of "incidents" involving the gardai.
I expect this will be another "provisional license" enforcement, and although it's a nice idea (if entirely incomplete), it's just not going to work.

Sorry SouthKerry.

It wasn't me! · 01-07-2009 08:34PM

Nobody's word should be considered conviction-worthy evidence. Ever. It's a mockery of the word justice. Someone close to me was persecuted for several years by the Gardai, because he and his mates drove loud cars and were a bit pikey. Because of this, the Gardai would intercept them at every turn, to the extent that none of them could drive a few miles to collect any of the others without being stopped and searched and having the car searched. They were all threatened with having evidence planted on them on numerous occasions and as a result (they were just kids) they were too frightened to talk to anyone about it. This even caused problems in the home and severe mental stress for the individual close to me. There were more than three of them, and the Gardai could, under this new legislation, declare them a gang, and prosecute them for it, because their word would be sufficient to convict without corroborating evidence, which they have no issue with fabricating in any case, and I know of instances where it's happened. This is a stupid law. A very, very stupid law, and it should never be passed.

bonzos · 01-07-2009 08:43PM

One of the main problems with this is that some of these state funded and housed scumbags will shot or kill a garda to prevent them giving edvidence .These scum have no respect for anyone garda or not!There is scum driving around every town in ireland in €50k+ cars and they are untouched. A law should be brought in the if you have cars,houses ect.. the can not be accounted for they are taken from you on the spot.CAB is only going after the big boys.Also any scum who is up in court with 20/30 convictions should get their SW cut off!!!!!

K-9 · 01-07-2009 08:45PM

This will become a police state. I said it in the 70's, in the 80's, in the 90's and the '00's. It is going to happen. Definitely.

bonzos · 01-07-2009 08:50PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Nobody's word should be considered conviction-worthy evidence. Ever. It's a mockery of the word justice. Someone close to me was persecuted for several years by the Gardai, because he and his mates drove loud cars and were a bit pikey. Because of this, the Gardai would intercept them at every turn, to the extent that none of them could drive a few miles to collect any of the others without being stopped and searched and having the car searched. They were all threatened with having evidence planted on them on numerous occasions and as a result (they were just kids) they were too frightened to talk to anyone about it. This even caused problems in the home and severe mental stress for the individual close to me. There were more than three of them, and the Gardai could, under this new legislation, declare them a gang, and prosecute them for it, because their word would be sufficient to convict without corroborating evidence, which they have no issue with fabricating in any case, and I know of instances where it's happened. This is a stupid law. A very, very stupid law, and it should never be passed.

Maybe the familys living in the area who were paying mortages and trying to live a peacefull lives did not see the funny side of your mates "acting a bit pikey"

topper75 · 01-07-2009 08:52PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Nobody's word should be considered conviction-worthy evidence. Ever. It's a mockery of the word justice. Someone close to me was persecuted for several years by the Gardai, because he and his mates drove loud cars and were a bit pikey. ...

You need to contact the Garda ombudsman about this. It is a horrific story.

This law does not give free reign to any such corrupt Gardai however.

It's a bit Lisbon - but if you do have time, read it at :
http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2009/4509/b4509d.pdf

Note that your case woudln't have been affected as driving around in loud cars and being a bit pikey (not quite sure what that means) does not constitue a 'serious offence'.

“‘criminal organisation’ means a structured group,
however organised, that has as its main purpose or activity

the commission or facilitation of a serious offence;”,

Dublin_Gunner · 01-07-2009 08:58PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Nobody's word should be considered conviction-worthy evidence. Ever. It's a mockery of the word justice.

Yeah, like god-forbid witness terstimony ever becomes admissable in court.

Someone close to me was persecuted for several years by the Gardai, because he and his mates drove loud cars and were a bit pikey. Because of this, the Gardai would intercept them at every turn, to the extent that none of them could drive a few miles to collect any of the others without being stopped and searched and having the car searched. They were all threatened with having evidence planted on them on numerous occasions and as a result (they were just kids) they were too frightened to talk to anyone about it. This even caused problems in the home and severe mental stress for the individual close to me. There were more than three of them, and the Gardai could, under this new legislation, declare them a gang, and prosecute them for it, because their word would be sufficient to convict without corroborating evidence, which they have no issue with fabricating in any case, and I know of instances where it's happened. This is a stupid law. A very, very stupid law, and it should never be passed.

So they drove around, like little knacks in their 'cool' cars, thought they were great, probably smoked blo in the cars etc etc

Sounds like the Gardai really must have had to make lots of stuff up in order to have them attract their attention :rolleyes:

Being in a 'gang' would not be enough to be considered for arrest - seriously, do you think are law makers are THAT stupid? Every football team, group of friends etc would / could be arrested then.

The will obviously only effect members of gangs that are partaking in criminal acts - thereby being able to arrest other members of said gang should one or more members be arrested for commiting a crime.

It wasn't me! · 01-07-2009 09:08PM

bonzos wrote: »

Maybe the familys living in the area who were paying mortages and trying to live a peacefull lives did not see the funny side of your mates "acting a bit pikey"

Yeah, and of course I live in somewhere the people all love the idea of their local Gardai planting evidence too. They all love stuff like that. Have some cop on. The issue is the conduct of law enforcement officials.

Dublin_Gunner wrote: »

Yeah, like god-forbid witness terstimony ever becomes admissable in court.

So they drove around, like little knacks in their 'cool' cars, thought they were great, probably smoked blo in the cars etc etc

Sounds like the Gardai really must have had to make lots of stuff up in order to have them attract their attention :rolleyes:

Being in a 'gang' would not be enough to be considered for arrest - seriously, do you think are law makers are THAT stupid? Every football team, group of friends etc would / could be arrested then.

The will obviously only effect members of gangs that are partaking in criminal acts - thereby being able to arrest other members of said gang should one or more members be arrested for commiting a crime.

Witness testimony is one thing, but when's the last time a conviction was secured on witness testimony without supporting evidence, and lots of it? I genuinely hope you can't think of one, because it would be extremely unjust.

Thanks for passing judgement, but it was not in order. The point is that they were never so much as charged with anything, but the local boys decided they were going to make life miserable for them anyway. Besides, their cars were stripped on a regular, occasionally daily, basis, so anything they had would have been found. One of them was even fobbed off when he attempted to make a statement after his car was stolen and burnt out. The guard told him he'd done it himself and if he attempted to press on with making a statement it would go badly for him.

So what about implementation? When your local Gardai behave like this, have admitted to planting drugs in cars, when your local drugs squad detective sergeant has lost his job for selling drugs, would you be concerned over an increase in authority, when there's such a history of underhand dealing and persecution?

Last few days for scumbags crinimals

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