ireland has lowest prisoner rate in eu

utick · 30-06-2009 01:36AM #1

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/prisoner-numbers-among-lowest-in-eu-1796021.html

ireland has one of the lowest rate of prisoners in europe, unfortunatly we dont have the lowest crime rates to justify this.

do you think we should keep with the softly softly approach or do we need to build more prisons

Ireland has one of the lowest rates of people in detention centres in Europe.

The latest figures released by European statistical company Eurostat show that Ireland has recorded an average of 75 prisoners per 100,000, well below the European average of 123.

And it was highlighted that the annual rate of murders in Ireland and in Dublin is higher than the European average.

The results come as it was revealed that prison services in Ireland are crippled by massive overcrowding difficulties, with occupancy levels reaching a level of 107pc.

There were 607,000 people incarcerated in the 27 EU member states between 2005 and 2007, equalling about 123 prisoners per 100,000. The rate of prisoners has been rising 1pc annually in Europe over the nine year period, according to Eurostat.

The Baltic countries, Poland and the Czech Republic recorded the highest rate, with 293 per 100,000 in Latvia.

The figures can be compared to the rate of 758 prisoners per 100,000 inhabitants in the USA for the same period. The investigation into crime patterns across the EU found that on average, crime rose from 1999 to peak in 2002, but have fallen consistently in the last five years.

The annual rate for murders in Europe between 2005 and 2007 was about 1.4 per 100 000 population, but higher in capital cities.

However, the rate for Ireland is above this figure, coming in at 1.45. And Dublin fared even worst when compared to other European capital cities. The rate in Dublin, at 2.4, was higher than the rate in London listed at 2.25, while the European average was recorded at 1.9.

The Irish Prison Service has said there has been a consistent increase in the total prisoner population over recent years.

orestes · 30-06-2009 01:39AM

That's cos we keep letting the bastards out early, if we even bother locking the up at all

netwhizkid · 30-06-2009 01:40AM

Keep the prisoner rates low and reintroduce the Death penalty and execute and Murderers, Drug Dealers, Rapists, Attempted Murderers, Drug Traffickers and persons convicted of firearms offenses. All life in prison sentences to be replaced with the Death penatly, all sentences to be carried out within three weeks of sentencing.

Senna · 30-06-2009 01:42AM

In most countries its "3 strikes and your out" (or in as it would be), but here how many times do we hear someone in court for something serious and they have 20/30/40 previous convictions. Its a joke.

Nevyn · 30-06-2009 01:47AM

netwhizkid wrote: »

Keep the prisoner rates low and reintroduce the Death penalty and execute and Murderers, Drug Dealers, Rapists, Attempted Murderers, Drug Traffickers and persons convicted of firearms offenses. All life in prison sentences to be replaced with the Death penatly, all sentences to be carried out within three weeks of sentencing.

Nah just bring back flogging.

javaboy · 30-06-2009 01:51AM

Thaedydal wrote: »

Nah just bring back flogging.

Flogging? Take it to .... (spoilt for choice here) eh... paren.... sex and.... um... I'll go with dark and deviant. Yes. Take it to Dark and Deviant. :pac:

Fighting Irish · 30-06-2009 01:53AM

netwhizkid wrote: »

Keep the prisoner rates low and reintroduce the Death penalty and execute and Murderers, Drug Dealers, Rapists, Attempted Murderers, Drug Traffickers and persons convicted of firearms offenses. All life in prison sentences to be replaced with the Death penatly, all sentences to be carried out within three weeks of sentencing.

or just legalise all drugs

Nevyn · 30-06-2009 01:59AM

javaboy wrote: »

Flogging? Take it to .... (spoilt for choice here) eh... paren.... sex and.... um... I'll go with dark and deviant. Yes. Take it to Dark and Deviant. :pac:

:rolleyes:

No*

That was a serious suggestion, I don't mean a sensual flogging, I mean a proper martine discipline flagellation, 21 lashes with a cat of nine tails to leave their back run red with blood, lift the skin of it and leave a lot of scaring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging

*would not be suitable for there far to pedestrian.

The Citizen · 30-06-2009 02:23AM

The army of scum grows stronger by the day. Even building 1 new prison per month, we would not be able to keep up with the ever increasing rise of the scumbags. It's a lose-lose situation.
Coupled with the crippled economy, these are bleak times for the people of this country. It would appear that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. It would appear that all hope is lost. That is why it is time to rise up against the scum. The fire of fury that burns inside must provide the light at the end of the tunnel, and leave the scum as a cyndering pile of ashes.
We must fight, with the dream of one day returning to a life without terror.
A life without fear.
A life with... the Citizen.

:mad:

jumpguy · 30-06-2009 02:24AM

Irelands prison system is very bland...it doesn't differ. It's all medium security prison. For example, a person going in for something like fraud could be in the same security prison and same prison wing as a rapist or murderer! Then there's the overcrowding issue, so that's really why we have such a low prison rate.

Overheal · 30-06-2009 02:39AM

perhaps if you stopped locking up pot smokers and letting go rapists

amacachi · 30-06-2009 02:49AM

jumpguy wrote: »

Irelands prison system is very bland...it doesn't differ. It's all medium security prison. For example, a person going in for something like fraud could be in the same security prison and same prison wing as a rapist or murderer! Then there's the overcrowding issue, so that's really why we have such a low prison rate.

Probably because any segregation there is is being used up by keeping people who are members of very slightly different "Republican" groups apart.

Lockstep · 30-06-2009 03:20AM

netwhizkid wrote: »

Keep the prisoner rates low and reintroduce the Death penalty and execute and Murderers, Drug Dealers, Rapists, Attempted Murderers, Drug Traffickers and persons convicted of firearms offenses. All life in prison sentences to be replaced with the Death penatly, all sentences to be carried out within three weeks of sentencing.

So you simulataneously want to bring in the death penalty while making it harder for appeals etc to be carried out?

The idea of the State having that kind of power (especially one with a justice system as flawed as ours) terrifies me.

Also; flogging? WTF? Cruel and unusual punishent/torture right there.

orestes · 30-06-2009 03:23AM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Also; flogging? WTF? Cruel and unusual punishent/torture right there.

Yes, yes it is, and?

Lockstep · 30-06-2009 03:27AM

orestes wrote: »

Yes, yes it is, and?

1) It's a pipe dream. (Unless we leave the EU)
2) It doesn't actually achieve anything (beyond those who get a thrill out of inflicting pain on another person) I know a lad who was flogged back in his home country, the scars on his back are horrendous. Anyone who would wish flogging on another human strikes me as unbalanced.

challengemaster · 30-06-2009 03:28AM

Everyone knows that the "Justice system" is anything but that by this stage... yet another joke in the country/how it's run...

orestes · 30-06-2009 03:33AM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

1) It's a pipe dream. (Unless we leave the EU)
2) It doesn't actually achieve anything (beyond those who get a thrill out of inflicting pain on another person) I know a lad who was flogged back in his home country, the scars on his back are horrendous. Anyone who would wish flogging on another human strikes me as unbalanced.

1) Our departure from the EU is a possibility.
2) I am not unbalanced and I would not wish flogging on a human being, but I have no issue with the idea of corporal punishment being used in matters of severe offences where guilt has been proven. By the way, I do not believe that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is an adequate standard of proof in criminal cases. Regarding achieving anything, I believe it is effective in preventing repeat offences.

well horse · 30-06-2009 03:39AM

Our prisoner rate is so low because our high dole payments keep those with a propensity for crime, comfortable and smoked out of it. They also eat so much refined food and watch so much big brother that commiting crime isn't as attractive as it was back in the good old bad old days of chronic hunger.

Lockstep · 30-06-2009 03:42AM

orestes wrote: »

1) Our departure from the EU is a possibility.

Yeah, the two most overtly eurosceptic parties (Libertas and SF) did brilliantly in the European elections.

orestes wrote: »

2) I am not unbalanced and I would not wish flogging on a human being, but I have no issue with the idea of corporal punishment being used in matters of severe offences where guilt has been proven. By the way, I do not believe that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is an adequate standard of proof in criminal cases. Regarding achieving anything, I believe it is effective in preventing repeat offences.

What criteria do you believe entails "guilt has been proven"?
Also; what does corporal punishment achieve? It is retribution and that is about it; it does not stop the perpetrator from acting again, it does not rehabilitate them etc. All it does is inflict pain on the perpetrator.

I'm unsure as to why you think it will prevent repeat offences. Do you believe it acts as a deterrent? If so, I doubt it as drug lords, terrorists, gangsters etc operate under conditions where being beaten by the state is merciful compared to what their rivals will do to them.

imp · 30-06-2009 03:55AM

utick wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/prisoner-numbers-among-lowest-in-eu-1796021.html

ireland has one of the lowest rate of prisoners in europe, unfortunatly we dont have the lowest crime rates to justify this.

do you think we should keep with the softly softly approach or do we need to build more prisons

This would seem to be a magic solution if there were a correlation between prison population and crime rate. But there's not, so it isn't.

Crime stats compiled by the UN
Prison stats compiled by King's College London

A case in point is the US which has the highest prison population in the world and still a much higher crime rate than we do. Likewise they generally have much longer sentences than we do (I'm sure Madoff, for example, wouldn't have gotten 150 years if he were tried here) and in many states the death penalty and yet still their crime stats are worse than ours.

orestes · 30-06-2009 03:57AM

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Yeah, the two most overtly eurosceptic parties (Libertas and SF) did brilliantly in the European elections.

What criteria do you believe entails "guilt has been proven"?
Also; what does corporal punishment achieve? It is retribution and that is about it; it does not stop the perpetrator from acting again, it does not rehabilitate them etc. All it does is inflict pain on the perpetrator.

I'm unsure as to why you think it will prevent repeat offences. Do you believe it acts as a deterrent? If so, I doubt it as drug lords, terrorists, gangsters etc operate under conditions where being beaten by the state is merciful compared to what their rivals will do to them.

I didn't say anything about elections or parties, I merely said that our departure from the EU is a possibility, which it always is.

I have no problem with pain being inflicted upon serious offenders (rapists, paedophiles, serial-killers and the likes). I do not believe that human rights are inherent, I am of the opinion that when you violate the rights of another/others in such an inhuman fashion you forfeit certain rights of your own. Yes it is retribution, and I see no problem with that.

The drug trade, terrorism, gangsters etc do not fall under the traditional umbrella of criminal as they are life-styles which involves crime, not merely crimes themselves. They are a gray area, and ironically the level of personal violence practiced in those areas shows how seriously career criminals take their own codes of conduct. If criminals themselves are happy with corporal punishment being used as a means of punishment, why not?

Lockstep · 30-06-2009 04:13AM

orestes wrote: »

I didn't say anything about elections or parties, I merely said that our departure from the EU is a possibility, which it always is.

Right, well then I'm sure you appreciate what a minute possibility it is. And as such, the chances of us being able to impose torture is slim at best.

orestes wrote: »

I have no problem with pain being inflicted upon serious offenders (rapists, paedophiles, serial-killers and the likes). I do not believe that human rights are inherent, I am of the opinion that when you violate the rights of another/others in such an inhuman fashion you forfeit certain rights of your own. Yes it is retribution, and I see no problem with that.

That's the thing about human rights; they are rights which we have by virtue of being human. THey are not privileges which can be waived at will; they are inherent rights which can only be limited for a very specific reason and for a purpose..
Corporal punishment does not solve anything and there is no justification in it aside from a desire to inflict pain. Which is not a healthy trait to have in our society.

orestes wrote: »

The drug trade, terrorism, gangsters etc do not fall under the traditional umbrella of criminal as they are life-styles which involves crime, not merely crimes themselves. They are a gray area

Why are they a grey area?
They most assuredly do fall under the traditional umbrella of criminal, I have no idea why you think this isn't the case. A terrorist is a terrorist by virtue ofthe actions they commit (which are crimes), same with drug dealers, murders, rapists etc.

orestes wrote: »

and ironically the level of personal violence practiced in those areas shows how seriously career criminals take their own codes of conduct. If criminals themselves are happy with corporal punishment being used as a means of punishment, why not?

Wait a minute; are you suggesting that because criminals use corporal punishments that somehow legitimises it? I really hope I am misunderstanding you.

Bandit12 · 30-06-2009 08:01AM

Crush the scum in one go by making drugs legal. If that's not an option them i think we need to start looking at a more long term solution by stopping a lot of these knackers from having kids in the first place. It's a vicious circle of scumbags being raised to ruin our country and it calls for a radical new approach imo. Why not bring in a scheme where you need a licence to have childern?

Pop's Diner · 30-06-2009 10:32AM

well horse wrote: »

Our prisoner rate is so low because our high dole payments keep those with a propensity for crime, comfortable and smoked out of it. They also eat so much refined food and watch so much big brother that commiting crime isn't as attractive as it was back in the good old bad old days of chronic hunger.

I agree with this. Along with television the dole is opiate of the masses. The bigger we make it the quieter they'll be. Many employed people resent the size of the dole and complain & demand a reduction in but I say try it and see what happens. I reckon there'd be total anarchy across the country before long (and furthermore I reckon the government believe this also).

I'd love to incarcerate every piece of scum in the country (just yesterday had to suffer a busride home with a pair of drunken middle-aged pieces of human filth) but the truth is it's cheaper & more efficent just to keep them locked than locked up.

Rhyme · 30-06-2009 10:38AM

Glass the country, start over.

Aidric · 30-06-2009 10:39AM

Pop's Diner wrote: »

I agree with this. Along with television the dole is opiate of the masses. The bigger we make it the quieter they'll be. Many employed people resent the size of the dole and complain & demand a reduction in but I say try it and see what happens. I reckon there'd be total anarchy across the country before long (and furthermore I reckon the government believe this also).

I'd love to incarcerate every piece of scum in the country (just yesterday had to suffer a busride home with a pair of drunken middle-aged pieces of human filth) but the truth is it's cheaper & more efficent just to keep them locked than locked up.

Are you proposing an internment camp with a giant screen? This would be cheap and could work. Just pump the fumes of confiscated grass in to the camps every so often to keep the scum subdued.

Pop's Diner · 30-06-2009 10:45AM

Aidric wrote: »

Are you proposing an internment camp with a giant screen? This would be cheap and could work. Just pump the fumes of confiscated grass in to the camps every so often to keep the scum subdued.

Well if you could bring it in for less than 10k (or whatever the dole works out at?) per scummer per year then it'd certainly be an attractive proposal.

KevR · 30-06-2009 11:29AM

Prisons in Ireland are probably like a holiday camp. I wouldn't be at all surprised if people in jail here had a life as comfortable as those on the dole/in low paid jobs. The only negative is that you don't have your freedom.

I think prison life should be a lot tougher. They should be out in Conemara breaking rock for a flat straight road between Galway and Clifden and other similar gruelling manual exercises. Not only would they not have time to be doing drugs in Mountjoy or getting a very comfortable life in jail, they'd actually be giving something back to the country (in that we wouldn't have to pay someone to break all that rock and it would mean less people dying on dangerous roads and the like).

At least then they would think harder before committing crimes and when they are released they would be clean of drugs and less likely to re-offend.

mike65 · 30-06-2009 11:33AM

Ah tis great to see a reasoned discussion on the topic of crime and punishment. You just won't see it here!

Earthhorse · 30-06-2009 11:39AM

Overheal wrote: »

perhaps if you stopped locking up pot smokers and letting go rapists

So, what? Kill off After Hours?

grundie · 30-06-2009 11:42AM

It wouldn't be too hard to sort crime out, the problem is no one in power seems willing to actually do anything about it.

Adopt a zero tolerance approach to anti-social crime. Throw the book at first time offenders, no exceptions.

Eliminate prison sentences for minor non anti-social crimes.

Ban visits to prisoners. Seriously! It would make prison life harder and eliminate the smuggling of drugs and phones.

Worry less about prison overcrowding, if you commit a crime and find yourself in a crowded prison, then tough.

Make it a requirement for all pupils to attempt their Leaving Cert. Ban them from leaving school until they attempt it. They don't have to pass, just make an effort at getting it.

Bring back corporal punishment in schools.

Some sort of compulsory community service for 16-18 year olds.

Make it a legal requirement for parents to ensure their children are brought up to respect the law. Remove passports, TVs and other luxuries for refusal to comply.

Link dole payments to how much employment you have had. For example if you are over 23 and have worked less than one year, you don't get cash, just vouchers to buy what you need except alcohol and cigarettes. If you have worked 1-3 years you get €50 + food vouchers. If you have worked 4+ years you get full dole of €200 odd, but dole money will be reduced over time and replaced with vouchers. This will force people in to actually looking for work, whilst ensuring they want for nothing essential.

ireland has lowest prisoner rate in eu

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