ireland has lowest prisoner rate in eu

utick

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/prisoner-numbers-among-lowest-in-eu-1796021.html

ireland has one of the lowest rate of prisoners in europe, unfortunatly we dont have the lowest crime rates to justify this.

do you think we should keep with the softly softly approach or do we need to build more prisons

Ireland has one of the lowest rates of people in detention centres in Europe.

The latest figures released by European statistical company Eurostat show that Ireland has recorded an average of 75 prisoners per 100,000, well below the European average of 123.

And it was highlighted that the annual rate of murders in Ireland and in Dublin is higher than the European average.

The results come as it was revealed that prison services in Ireland are crippled by massive overcrowding difficulties, with occupancy levels reaching a level of 107pc.

There were 607,000 people incarcerated in the 27 EU member states between 2005 and 2007, equalling about 123 prisoners per 100,000. The rate of prisoners has been rising 1pc annually in Europe over the nine year period, according to Eurostat.

The Baltic countries, Poland and the Czech Republic recorded the highest rate, with 293 per 100,000 in Latvia.

The figures can be compared to the rate of 758 prisoners per 100,000 inhabitants in the USA for the same period. The investigation into crime patterns across the EU found that on average, crime rose from 1999 to peak in 2002, but have fallen consistently in the last five years.

The annual rate for murders in Europe between 2005 and 2007 was about 1.4 per 100 000 population, but higher in capital cities.

However, the rate for Ireland is above this figure, coming in at 1.45. And Dublin fared even worst when compared to other European capital cities. The rate in Dublin, at 2.4, was higher than the rate in London listed at 2.25, while the European average was recorded at 1.9.

The Irish Prison Service has said there has been a consistent increase in the total prisoner population over recent years.

orestes

That's cos we keep letting the bastards out early, if we even bother locking the up at all

netwhizkid

Keep the prisoner rates low and reintroduce the Death penalty and execute and Murderers, Drug Dealers, Rapists, Attempted Murderers, Drug Traffickers and persons convicted of firearms offenses. All life in prison sentences to be replaced with the Death penatly, all sentences to be carried out within three weeks of sentencing.

Senna

In most countries its "3 strikes and your out" (or in as it would be), but here how many times do we hear someone in court for something serious and they have 20/30/40 previous convictions. Its a joke.

Nevyn

netwhizkid wrote: »

Keep the prisoner rates low and reintroduce the Death penalty and execute and Murderers, Drug Dealers, Rapists, Attempted Murderers, Drug Traffickers and persons convicted of firearms offenses. All life in prison sentences to be replaced with the Death penatly, all sentences to be carried out within three weeks of sentencing.

Nah just bring back flogging.

javaboy

Thaedydal wrote: »

Nah just bring back flogging.

Flogging? Take it to .... (spoilt for choice here) eh... paren.... sex and.... um... I'll go with dark and deviant. Yes. Take it to Dark and Deviant. :pac:

Fighting Irish

netwhizkid wrote: »

Keep the prisoner rates low and reintroduce the Death penalty and execute and Murderers, Drug Dealers, Rapists, Attempted Murderers, Drug Traffickers and persons convicted of firearms offenses. All life in prison sentences to be replaced with the Death penatly, all sentences to be carried out within three weeks of sentencing.

or just legalise all drugs

Nevyn

javaboy wrote: »

Flogging? Take it to .... (spoilt for choice here) eh... paren.... sex and.... um... I'll go with dark and deviant. Yes. Take it to Dark and Deviant. :pac:

:rolleyes:

No*

That was a serious suggestion, I don't mean a sensual flogging, I mean a proper martine discipline flagellation, 21 lashes with a cat of nine tails to leave their back run red with blood, lift the skin of it and leave a lot of scaring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flogging


*would not be suitable for there far to pedestrian.

The Citizen

The army of scum grows stronger by the day. Even building 1 new prison per month, we would not be able to keep up with the ever increasing rise of the scumbags. It's a lose-lose situation.
Coupled with the crippled economy, these are bleak times for the people of this country. It would appear that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. It would appear that all hope is lost. That is why it is time to rise up against the scum. The fire of fury that burns inside must provide the light at the end of the tunnel, and leave the scum as a cyndering pile of ashes.
We must fight, with the dream of one day returning to a life without terror.
A life without fear.
A life with... the Citizen.

:mad:

jumpguy

Irelands prison system is very bland...it doesn't differ. It's all medium security prison. For example, a person going in for something like fraud could be in the same security prison and same prison wing as a rapist or murderer! Then there's the overcrowding issue, so that's really why we have such a low prison rate.

Overheal

perhaps if you stopped locking up pot smokers and letting go rapists

amacachi

jumpguy wrote: »

Irelands prison system is very bland...it doesn't differ. It's all medium security prison. For example, a person going in for something like fraud could be in the same security prison and same prison wing as a rapist or murderer! Then there's the overcrowding issue, so that's really why we have such a low prison rate.

Probably because any segregation there is is being used up by keeping people who are members of very slightly different "Republican" groups apart.

Lockstep

netwhizkid wrote: »

Keep the prisoner rates low and reintroduce the Death penalty and execute and Murderers, Drug Dealers, Rapists, Attempted Murderers, Drug Traffickers and persons convicted of firearms offenses. All life in prison sentences to be replaced with the Death penatly, all sentences to be carried out within three weeks of sentencing.

So you simulataneously want to bring in the death penalty while making it harder for appeals etc to be carried out?

The idea of the State having that kind of power (especially one with a justice system as flawed as ours) terrifies me.

Also; flogging? WTF? Cruel and unusual punishent/torture right there.

orestes

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Also; flogging? WTF? Cruel and unusual punishent/torture right there.

Yes, yes it is, and?

Lockstep

orestes wrote: »

Yes, yes it is, and?

1) It's a pipe dream. (Unless we leave the EU)
2) It doesn't actually achieve anything (beyond those who get a thrill out of inflicting pain on another person) I know a lad who was flogged back in his home country, the scars on his back are horrendous. Anyone who would wish flogging on another human strikes me as unbalanced.

challengemaster

Everyone knows that the "Justice system" is anything but that by this stage... yet another joke in the country/how it's run...

orestes

kickoutthejams wrote: »

1) It's a pipe dream. (Unless we leave the EU)
2) It doesn't actually achieve anything (beyond those who get a thrill out of inflicting pain on another person) I know a lad who was flogged back in his home country, the scars on his back are horrendous. Anyone who would wish flogging on another human strikes me as unbalanced.

1) Our departure from the EU is a possibility.
2) I am not unbalanced and I would not wish flogging on a human being, but I have no issue with the idea of corporal punishment being used in matters of severe offences where guilt has been proven. By the way, I do not believe that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is an adequate standard of proof in criminal cases. Regarding achieving anything, I believe it is effective in preventing repeat offences.

well horse

Our prisoner rate is so low because our high dole payments keep those with a propensity for crime, comfortable and smoked out of it. They also eat so much refined food and watch so much big brother that commiting crime isn't as attractive as it was back in the good old bad old days of chronic hunger.

Lockstep

orestes wrote: »

1) Our departure from the EU is a possibility.

Yeah, the two most overtly eurosceptic parties (Libertas and SF) did brilliantly in the European elections.

orestes wrote: »

2) I am not unbalanced and I would not wish flogging on a human being, but I have no issue with the idea of corporal punishment being used in matters of severe offences where guilt has been proven. By the way, I do not believe that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is an adequate standard of proof in criminal cases. Regarding achieving anything, I believe it is effective in preventing repeat offences.

What criteria do you believe entails "guilt has been proven"?
Also; what does corporal punishment achieve? It is retribution and that is about it; it does not stop the perpetrator from acting again, it does not rehabilitate them etc. All it does is inflict pain on the perpetrator.

I'm unsure as to why you think it will prevent repeat offences. Do you believe it acts as a deterrent? If so, I doubt it as drug lords, terrorists, gangsters etc operate under conditions where being beaten by the state is merciful compared to what their rivals will do to them.

imp

utick wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/prisoner-numbers-among-lowest-in-eu-1796021.html

ireland has one of the lowest rate of prisoners in europe, unfortunatly we dont have the lowest crime rates to justify this.

do you think we should keep with the softly softly approach or do we need to build more prisons

This would seem to be a magic solution if there were a correlation between prison population and crime rate. But there's not, so it isn't.

Crime stats compiled by the UN
Prison stats compiled by King's College London

A case in point is the US which has the highest prison population in the world and still a much higher crime rate than we do. Likewise they generally have much longer sentences than we do (I'm sure Madoff, for example, wouldn't have gotten 150 years if he were tried here) and in many states the death penalty and yet still their crime stats are worse than ours.

orestes

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Yeah, the two most overtly eurosceptic parties (Libertas and SF) did brilliantly in the European elections.


What criteria do you believe entails "guilt has been proven"?
Also; what does corporal punishment achieve? It is retribution and that is about it; it does not stop the perpetrator from acting again, it does not rehabilitate them etc. All it does is inflict pain on the perpetrator.

I'm unsure as to why you think it will prevent repeat offences. Do you believe it acts as a deterrent? If so, I doubt it as drug lords, terrorists, gangsters etc operate under conditions where being beaten by the state is merciful compared to what their rivals will do to them.

I didn't say anything about elections or parties, I merely said that our departure from the EU is a possibility, which it always is.

I have no problem with pain being inflicted upon serious offenders (rapists, paedophiles, serial-killers and the likes). I do not believe that human rights are inherent, I am of the opinion that when you violate the rights of another/others in such an inhuman fashion you forfeit certain rights of your own. Yes it is retribution, and I see no problem with that.

The drug trade, terrorism, gangsters etc do not fall under the traditional umbrella of criminal as they are life-styles which involves crime, not merely crimes themselves. They are a gray area, and ironically the level of personal violence practiced in those areas shows how seriously career criminals take their own codes of conduct. If criminals themselves are happy with corporal punishment being used as a means of punishment, why not?

Lockstep

orestes wrote: »

I didn't say anything about elections or parties, I merely said that our departure from the EU is a possibility, which it always is.

Right, well then I'm sure you appreciate what a minute possibility it is. And as such, the chances of us being able to impose torture is slim at best.

orestes wrote: »

I have no problem with pain being inflicted upon serious offenders (rapists, paedophiles, serial-killers and the likes). I do not believe that human rights are inherent, I am of the opinion that when you violate the rights of another/others in such an inhuman fashion you forfeit certain rights of your own. Yes it is retribution, and I see no problem with that.

That's the thing about human rights; they are rights which we have by virtue of being human. THey are not privileges which can be waived at will; they are inherent rights which can only be limited for a very specific reason and for a purpose..
Corporal punishment does not solve anything and there is no justification in it aside from a desire to inflict pain. Which is not a healthy trait to have in our society.

orestes wrote: »

The drug trade, terrorism, gangsters etc do not fall under the traditional umbrella of criminal as they are life-styles which involves crime, not merely crimes themselves. They are a gray area

Why are they a grey area?
They most assuredly do fall under the traditional umbrella of criminal, I have no idea why you think this isn't the case. A terrorist is a terrorist by virtue ofthe actions they commit (which are crimes), same with drug dealers, murders, rapists etc.

orestes wrote: »

and ironically the level of personal violence practiced in those areas shows how seriously career criminals take their own codes of conduct. If criminals themselves are happy with corporal punishment being used as a means of punishment, why not?

Wait a minute; are you suggesting that because criminals use corporal punishments that somehow legitimises it? I really hope I am misunderstanding you.

Bandit12

Crush the scum in one go by making drugs legal. If that's not an option them i think we need to start looking at a more long term solution by stopping a lot of these knackers from having kids in the first place. It's a vicious circle of scumbags being raised to ruin our country and it calls for a radical new approach imo. Why not bring in a scheme where you need a licence to have childern?

Pop's Diner

well horse wrote: »

Our prisoner rate is so low because our high dole payments keep those with a propensity for crime, comfortable and smoked out of it. They also eat so much refined food and watch so much big brother that commiting crime isn't as attractive as it was back in the good old bad old days of chronic hunger.

I agree with this. Along with television the dole is opiate of the masses. The bigger we make it the quieter they'll be. Many employed people resent the size of the dole and complain & demand a reduction in but I say try it and see what happens. I reckon there'd be total anarchy across the country before long (and furthermore I reckon the government believe this also).

I'd love to incarcerate every piece of scum in the country (just yesterday had to suffer a busride home with a pair of drunken middle-aged pieces of human filth) but the truth is it's cheaper & more efficent just to keep them locked than locked up.

Rhyme

Glass the country, start over.

Aidric

Pop's Diner wrote: »

I agree with this. Along with television the dole is opiate of the masses. The bigger we make it the quieter they'll be. Many employed people resent the size of the dole and complain & demand a reduction in but I say try it and see what happens. I reckon there'd be total anarchy across the country before long (and furthermore I reckon the government believe this also).

I'd love to incarcerate every piece of scum in the country (just yesterday had to suffer a busride home with a pair of drunken middle-aged pieces of human filth) but the truth is it's cheaper & more efficent just to keep them locked than locked up.

Are you proposing an internment camp with a giant screen? This would be cheap and could work. Just pump the fumes of confiscated grass in to the camps every so often to keep the scum subdued.

Pop's Diner

Aidric wrote: »

Are you proposing an internment camp with a giant screen? This would be cheap and could work. Just pump the fumes of confiscated grass in to the camps every so often to keep the scum subdued.

Well if you could bring it in for less than 10k (or whatever the dole works out at?) per scummer per year then it'd certainly be an attractive proposal.

KevR

Prisons in Ireland are probably like a holiday camp. I wouldn't be at all surprised if people in jail here had a life as comfortable as those on the dole/in low paid jobs. The only negative is that you don't have your freedom.

I think prison life should be a lot tougher. They should be out in Conemara breaking rock for a flat straight road between Galway and Clifden and other similar gruelling manual exercises. Not only would they not have time to be doing drugs in Mountjoy or getting a very comfortable life in jail, they'd actually be giving something back to the country (in that we wouldn't have to pay someone to break all that rock and it would mean less people dying on dangerous roads and the like).

At least then they would think harder before committing crimes and when they are released they would be clean of drugs and less likely to re-offend.

mike65

Ah tis great to see a reasoned discussion on the topic of crime and punishment. You just won't see it here!

Earthhorse

Overheal wrote: »

perhaps if you stopped locking up pot smokers and letting go rapists

So, what? Kill off After Hours?

grundie

It wouldn't be too hard to sort crime out, the problem is no one in power seems willing to actually do anything about it.

Adopt a zero tolerance approach to anti-social crime. Throw the book at first time offenders, no exceptions.

Eliminate prison sentences for minor non anti-social crimes.

Ban visits to prisoners. Seriously! It would make prison life harder and eliminate the smuggling of drugs and phones.

Worry less about prison overcrowding, if you commit a crime and find yourself in a crowded prison, then tough.

Make it a requirement for all pupils to attempt their Leaving Cert. Ban them from leaving school until they attempt it. They don't have to pass, just make an effort at getting it.

Bring back corporal punishment in schools.

Some sort of compulsory community service for 16-18 year olds.

Make it a legal requirement for parents to ensure their children are brought up to respect the law. Remove passports, TVs and other luxuries for refusal to comply.

Link dole payments to how much employment you have had. For example if you are over 23 and have worked less than one year, you don't get cash, just vouchers to buy what you need except alcohol and cigarettes. If you have worked 1-3 years you get €50 + food vouchers. If you have worked 4+ years you get full dole of €200 odd, but dole money will be reduced over time and replaced with vouchers. This will force people in to actually looking for work, whilst ensuring they want for nothing essential.

kiwikid

KevR wrote: »

Prisons in Ireland are probably like a holiday camp. I wouldn't be at all surprised if people in jail here had a life as comfortable as those on the dole/in low paid jobs. The only negative is that you don't have your freedom.

At least then they would think harder before committing crimes and when they are released they would be clean of drugs and less likely to re-offend.

I agree - i remember reading where Martin Cahill wanted a "break" so he went to Spike for a few months down time.

I would like to see prisons being self sufficient - i.e. growing what they eat to survive. You don't work you don't eat. If you don't get your JC or LC while behind bars then you are penalized - learning to read is not a choice so that at least on their release prisoners are better citizens in that one regard.
My father went to visit a local man in Shelton Abbey doing a year for an evasion crime of some sort. Twas the first time my father had been near that side of life and he could not believe inmates had the choice of breakfasts in the morning in his opinion people who work all their lives get far more limited choice each mornings before they go out and do a days work.

No wonder some segments of society welcome the break of jail respite:rolleyes:

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

Yep, i see we join the other crime hotspot countries like Finland, Denmark and Sweden in having low imprisonment rates. That's a bad group to be part of

We also have a total rate of crime that is about 4 times less per capita than the UK, despite them putting a lot more people per capita in jail.

thelordofcheese

grundie wrote: »

It wouldn't be too hard to sort crime out, the problem is no one in power seems willing to actually do anything about it.

Adopt a zero tolerance approach to anti-social crime. Throw the book at first time offenders, no exceptions.

Eliminate prison sentences for minor non anti-social crimes.

Ban visits to prisoners. Seriously! It would make prison life harder and eliminate the smuggling of drugs and phones.

Worry less about prison overcrowding, if you commit a crime and find yourself in a crowded prison, then tough.

Make it a requirement for all pupils to attempt their Leaving Cert. Ban them from leaving school until they attempt it. They don't have to pass, just make an effort at getting it.

Bring back corporal punishment in schools.

Some sort of compulsory community service for 16-18 year olds.

Make it a legal requirement for parents to ensure their children are brought up to respect the law. Remove passports, TVs and other luxuries for refusal to comply.

Link dole payments to how much employment you have had. For example if you are over 23 and have worked less than one year, you don't get cash, just vouchers to buy what you need except alcohol and cigarettes. If you have worked 1-3 years you get €50 + food vouchers. If you have worked 4+ years you get full dole of €200 odd, but dole money will be reduced over time and replaced with vouchers. This will force people in to actually looking for work, whilst ensuring they want for nothing essential.

That's a pretty comprehensive list of every bad idea that's ever been posted on AH. Good job!

Shacklebolt

grundie wrote: »

It wouldn't be too hard to sort crime out, the problem is no one in power seems willing to actually do anything about it.

Adopt a zero tolerance approach to anti-social crime. Throw the book at first time offenders, no exceptions.

Eliminate prison sentences for minor non anti-social crimes.

Ban visits to prisoners. Seriously! It would make prison life harder and eliminate the smuggling of drugs and phones.

Worry less about prison overcrowding, if you commit a crime and find yourself in a crowded prison, then tough.

Make it a requirement for all pupils to attempt their Leaving Cert. Ban them from leaving school until they attempt it. They don't have to pass, just make an effort at getting it.

Bring back corporal punishment in schools.

Some sort of compulsory community service for 16-18 year olds.

Make it a legal requirement for parents to ensure their children are brought up to respect the law. Remove passports, TVs and other luxuries for refusal to comply.

Link dole payments to how much employment you have had. For example if you are over 23 and have worked less than one year, you don't get cash, just vouchers to buy what you need except alcohol and cigarettes. If you have worked 1-3 years you get €50 + food vouchers. If you have worked 4+ years you get full dole of €200 odd, but dole money will be reduced over time and replaced with vouchers. This will force people in to actually looking for work, whilst ensuring they want for nothing essential.

Yes lets replace crime with fascism I'm sure thats a good exchange.

Mossy Monk

If they actually locked up the scumbags then that statistic would be wrong. The justice system here is a ****ing joke

thelordofcheese

Mossy Monk wrote: »

If they actually locked up the scumbags then that statistic would be wrong. The justice system here is a ****ing joke

I mean sure everyone knows that if you get convicted in court you don't go to jail, you get a free 09 reg car and a house, and a years supply of swans to eat, all paid for by the victim!


(am i doing it right?)

phantom_lord

maybe we'd be better off trying other stuff besides building more prisons, hasn't worked so far imo.

grundie

Shacklebolt wrote: »

Yes lets replace crime with fascism I'm sure thats a good exchange.

How is what I suggested fascism?

Zero tolerance has been tried elsewhere and shown in many cases to work. If you don't commit a crime then you won't be affected.

What's wrong with eliminating prison sentences for minor crimes that aren't anti-social. I'm talking about possession of blow and small fraud cases and the like.

Banning prison visits? So what? Make prison harder and more of a deterrent.

Forcing children to complete their education would seem like a no-brainer to me. At least that way we can ensure that all school leavers have a decent level of literacy and numeracy that will help the country in the long run.

Corporal punishment may seem harsh, but it is a deterrent.

Compulsory community service would entail teenagers going out and helping in their communities to instil a sense of responsibility and pride. Seems like a good idea to me.

And what is wrong with forcing parents to actually make their kids respect the law? If someone's teenage son is going out and getting locked every other night, why shouldn't the law step in a tell them to get their act in order? You can't jail parents as that would hurt their children, better to sanction them with withdrawal of their little luxuries.

And the dole in this country is too high. Getting €200 a week for nothing is an incentive to stay at home and rot. I see nothing wrong in reducing dole payments to force people to look for work. Say to people we'll provide you with all your essential needs, but if you want cold hard cash you'll have to go out and earn it. Simple as that.

Fascism goes after the weak. The problem in Ireland isn't the weak, it's the lazy and bad people who just don't care about how their actions affect others. They just want to take what they want and let the rest of us pay for it.

Mossy Monk

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I mean sure everyone knows that if you get convicted in court you don't go to jail, you get a free 09 reg car and a house, and a years supply of swans to eat, all paid for by the victim!


(am i doing it right?)

I know of one knacker who robbed a hotel at knifepoint yet he still walks around.

thelordofcheese

Mossy Monk wrote: »

I know of one knacker who robbed a hotel at knifepoint yet he still walks around.

I'm sure you do, but i find that pretty much anyone who says "the justice system is a joke" is basing it on a small number of cases that are notable because of a percieved lack of justice and ignoring the huge volume of cases that aren't.

In short, just because you claim there's a 'knacker' who robbed a hotel walking around doesn't mean the entire justice system is a joke, it means that for reasons you have no idea about he wasn't sentanced in a manner you see fit.

thelordofcheese

grundie wrote: »

How is what I suggested fascism?

Zero tolerance has been tried elsewhere and shown in many cases to work. If you don't commit a crime then you won't be affected.

it doesn't work because nobody actually plans on getting caught. Also, you can take your "if your innocent you have nothing to fear" rethoric and shove it. It's wrong.

grundie wrote: »

Banning prison visits? So what? Make prison harder and more of a deterrent.

Do you know why we let prisoners have visitors? Heres a hint - what happens to people in prisons where there are no visitors allowed? Think places like gitmo. We let people have visitors to act as a checks and balances against prisoner abuse.

grundie wrote: »

Forcing children to complete their education would seem like a no-brainer to me. At least that way we can ensure that all school leavers have a decent level of literacy and numeracy that will help the country in the long run.

basic literacy and numeracy should be achieved well before leaving cert, and certainly if you havn't then sticking around for the finer point of shakespeare probably won't do you any good.
I fail to see your point.

grundie wrote: »

Corporal punishment may seem harsh, but it is a deterrent.

No, not really. Or at all.

grundie wrote: »

Compulsory community service would entail teenagers going out and helping in their communities to instil a sense of responsibility and pride. Seems like a good idea to me.

Forcing people to do something will have the exact opposite effect, especially in teenagers.

grundie wrote: »

And what is wrong with forcing parents to actually make their kids respect the law? If someone's teenage son is going out and getting locked every other night, why shouldn't the law step in a tell them to get their act in order? You can't jail parents as that would hurt their children, better to sanction them with withdrawal of their little luxuries.

This is the stupidest fucking thing ever, i don't know what the hell you're even trying to argue, that the state should raise everyones child? What? How do you even begin to define metrics for 'respect of the law'?
Get out.

Robbo

Mossy Monk wrote: »

I know of one knacker who robbed a hotel at knifepoint yet he still walks around.

He had a knife big enough to threaten a large building? Limerick by any chance?

mike65

Well if junior is collared the mother looses child benefit. There, problem solved.

Fink Goddie

Singapore is proof that zero tolerance works, they have the lowest crime rate in the world.
if you bring drugs into their country its possible you get the death penalty, Cane is a legally sanctioned punishment prescribed for a range of offences including robbery, vandalism, pimping, trespassing, urinating in a public.

Nodin

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I mean sure everyone knows that if you get convicted in court you don't go to jail, you get a free 09 reg car and a house, and a years supply of swans to eat, all paid for by the victim!
(am i doing it right?)

Left out the free woman but yeah, you're on track.....

grundie

thelordofcheese wrote: »

it doesn't work because nobody actually plans on getting caught. Also, you can take your "if your innocent you have nothing to fear" rethoric and shove it. It's wrong.

I fail to see how there are any disadvantages to a zero tolerance policy. I'm not advocating the defining of new crimes nor of changing the levels of evidence required to secure a conviction. What I am saying is that if a crime is committed and the Gardai have enough evidence to prosecute, then they should. No more cautions or anything like that, no more deals, no more deciding not to pursue cases that may be too difficult.

At the very least it would be hassle for those who commit lots of anti-social crime as they would be in the courts constantly, at best it would place a black mark on a persons criminal record and that may make them think twice before committing a more serious crime.

I would also state that "if your innocent you have nothing to fear" is not rhetoric. I am not proposing the changing of how convictions are gained, nor how the Gardai seeks to prosecute people. If the Gards abuse their power to hassle an innocent person, then the evidence will show this and the person concerned will still be able to take legal action just as they can now.

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Do you know why we let prisoners have visitors? Heres a hint - what happens to people in prisons where there are no visitors allowed? Think places like gitmo. We let people have visitors to act as a checks and balances against prisoner abuse.

In that case implement an idependent visitation organisation group whose purpose is to act an intermediary between prisoner and families and to protect the interests of prisoners.

thelordofcheese wrote: »

basic literacy and numeracy should be achieved well before leaving cert, and certainly if you havn't then sticking around for the finer point of shakespeare probably won't do you any good.
I fail to see your point.

My point that Ireland doesn't have a big manufacturing base, nor do we have the sorts of natural resources that can support he employment of a large number of skilled or semi-skilled people.

Basic numeracy and literacy is good. But I think it is better to educate our young to a point where they could start a business if they wanted or have no trouble undertaking a degree if they so wished. It's about giving the young people of Ireland the skills they need to find and even create skilled well paid jobs.

There is nothing to lose and everything to gain from knowing more about the world.

It also ensures teenagers can't drop out of school early and be on the streets all day causign trouble.

thelordofcheese wrote: »

No, not really. Or at all.

Maybe it does or maybe it doesn't, but a lot of people do support it. And let's be honest children were more afraid to speak back to teachers back when it was in use.

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Forcing people to do something will have the exact opposite effect, especially in teenagers.

Such a scheme of community service would be undertaken as part of a teenagers basic education. It would serve to let them know there is a world beyong their own family and that their actions have an impact on other people.

There has been a growing trend in the USA for schools to require students to take part in some form of community service as part of their education and the evidence so far has shown that students who take part in this service achieve better academic results and are less likely to commit crime. (This wikipedia page goes over the basics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Service_learning)

thelordofcheese wrote: »

This is the stupidest fucking thing ever, i don't know what the hell you're even trying to argue, that the state should raise everyones child? What? How do you even begin to define metrics for 'respect of the law'?
Get out.

With all due respect I did not suggest that the state should raise everyone's child, far from it.

What I am trying to say is that when you bring a child in to the world you have to fulfil certain responsibilities, one of which is to bring your child up in a way that encourages them to not cause trouble for other people. You can bring them up anyway you like, you can have them do or believe anything you want, so long as they don't go hurting other people.

If through your deliberate actions or through a lack of care your child is engaging in anti-social behaviour then you then have no choice but to take action to ensure they cease such activity. If you cannot control your child then you should ask for help. If you refuse to take action or ask for help (if needed) then I think is perfectly acceptable for the state to take action to get you to fulfil your basic parental responsibilities.

The state should take no interest whatsoever in you or your child's life unless the child is engaging in criminal or anti-social behaviour.

And as for metrics to define 'respect for the law' there is no need. They already exist, if a child makes a habit of breaking the law then the state should be going to their parents and suggesting strongly that they should get their child under control. Parents can blame society, poverty and deprivation all they want, that doesn't stop them from simply telling their kids to behave.

Let's look at an example, An 8-year old primary school pupil of drops a massive f-bomb at his teacher and then tries to strike her all because she told him to stop flicking paint at other pupils. When the child's mother was called in, her response was to not to apologise, but to ask what on earth the teacher did to provoke that response. When told of the circumstances the mothers response was to say "Well, you shouldn't have told him off then". In circumstances such as this I would strongly suggest that the mother needs a lesson in teaching her child to understand responsibility. This actually happened to an ex-housemate of mine, it was typical of the sort of incident that made her give up teaching after only three years in the job.

theTinker

Your arguments although quite extreme, actually make sense. Its scary!

Executive Steve

jumpguy wrote: »

Irelands prison system is very bland...it doesn't differ. It's all medium security prison. For example, a person going in for something like fraud could be in the same security prison and same prison wing as a rapist or murderer! Then there's the overcrowding issue, so that's really why we have such a low prison rate.

This is an AH thread on criminal justice, stop talking sense.

Executive Steve

mike65 wrote: »

Well if junior is collared the mother looses child benefit. There, problem solved.

Reducing the source of income for a vulnerable impoverished barely literate single mother on the breadline and causing her to turn to petty crime as well? Or maybe prostitution?

Great plan!

PapaQuebec

What the figures DON'T record is that Ireland has the highest rate of foreign-born prisoners in the world! Over a third of those committed to prison in 2008 were not born here!! 31.2% of inmates are currently foreign-born (march 2009) with 21.4% of the total inmate population born in sub-saharan africa alone!