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DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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  • #392
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    watty wrote: »
    It's likely the Public Broadcaster Mux will be launched this autumn.
    Mr. Conor Hayes, 11 June 2009 wrote:
    If a successful commercial contract was negotiated*, we believe we would be able to provide a service to 85% of the country from the summer of next year.
    *with a consortium that consists of Arqiva, Eircom, Setanta(:eek:), and TV3, a group that have no legal establishment (ie they're not a company) and have not signed any contract.


  • #393
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    I dunno how trademarks work, but "OneVision" is already a trademark of a German company.

    Tis strange how a contract can be offered to a company that doesn't exist?


  • #394
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    IN reality the PSB mux doesn't depend on a Commercial PayTV sign up. It can happen FASTER if there is no PayTV.

    If there is a PayTV licence contract signed, then RTE / RTENL will delay public launch of DTT till the Commercial Mux/Operator is ready.

    If it's confirmed and agreed that Pay TV won't happen, no Commercial Muxes, then PSB mux DTT launch can proceed almost at once.


  • #395
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    watty wrote: »
    IN reality the PSB mux doesn't depend on a Commercial PayTV sign up. It can happen FASTER if there is no PayTV.

    If there is a PayTV licence contract signed, then RTE / RTENL will delay public launch of DTT till the Commercial Mux/Operator is ready.

    If it's confirmed and agreed that Pay TV won't happen, no Commercial Muxes, then PSB mux DTT launch can proceed almost at once.
    You need to tell that to RTE. They are waiting for the commercial side to be agreed upon before they launch anything, by the sounds of it. RTE are in the DTT driving seat.


  • #396
    scath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭scath


    I think we need to give RTÉ abit of time.

    This is a business. RTÉ would I imagine be trying to save on promotional costs by joining the FTA and pay DTT together advertising wise. In fact they might even just get a listing on pay DTT ads. I.E you can buy the pay DTT box and use that until you want to subscribe later.FTA boxes are an obstacle to pay DTT uptake. Its an expense and inconvenience.

    The reality is they will have capacity on their network. They probably want to keep with pay DTT elements rather than FTA boxes as they will get more return if there are more people using the Pay part of the network via rental from the pay operator. So they would want the pay operator to be successful and use their network.

    The only problem is the setting of a deadline for Pay DTT and moving things along. Boxer were allowed go on too long it seems in negotiations from initial award time to their decision. The BCI should have set 3 months as the make or break.
    From a marketing point of view its just cheaper for RTÉ to launch in tandem with the commercial operator. However there is nothing to stop RTÉ from launching earlier. But it just makes the situation harder for a pay operator if FTA boxes are already out there because people have to go to the trouble of buying or renting a pay DTT box.

    A simple way around that is the specify an access system so that boxes are pay DTT are marketed by RTÉ and the bidder accepts it initially until it changes technology ie HD.


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  • #397
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    4 weeks should have been enough.

    1 week even.


    It was out for tender practially 7 years. The bidders made proposals. Either that is what they do or forget it. It makes a mockery of Tendering Process if people can spend months re-negotiating afterward.

    The ball is NOT in RTE's court, but it's the BCI that is calling the shots. BCI & Government need to accept that Pay DTT is a dead duck. RTE should be getting a grant for roll out as this is not their decision but the Government, who will make revenue selling the spectrum. If we NEVER changed to Digital, the EU would do nothing. This is Government driven, badly.


  • #398
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    How long after the awarding of the licence did it take Boxer to say that they had no interest in it?


  • #399
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Boxer DTT wins digital tv contracts
    http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0721/digital.html
    Monday, 21 July 2008 16:27

    Originally Posted by RTE
    Boxer throws in towel on digital
    Monday, 20 April 2009 13:11

    Obviously BCI is so desperate to have a Commercial Operator they have no time limit.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055339462


  • #400
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    watty wrote: »
    Boxer DTT wins digital tv contracts
    http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/0721/digital.html
    Monday, 21 July 2008 16:27

    Originally Posted by RTE
    Boxer throws in towel on digital
    Monday, 20 April 2009 13:11

    Obviously BCI is so desperate to have a Commercial Operator they have no time limit.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055339462

    So 10th Jan 2010, we should see One Vision pull out and on the 11th of Feb Easy TV. And we give that one year leaving the BCI 1 year to try something else at the last minute.


  • #401
    byte
    Moderators, Regional North West Moderators Posts: 19,179 Mod ✭✭✭✭byte
    byte


    Some posts regarding MPEG2 tuners moved from here to the following thread:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60932346&postcount=63

    This one is supposed to be primarily about OneVision or whoever takes up the pay side of DTT...


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  • #402
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    byte wrote: »
    This one is supposed to be primarily about OneVision or whoever takes up the pay side of DTT...

    But also how they are going to role out the service, and the issue of MPEG2 and MPEG4 from an educational view point is important. The other thread is purely for and against MPEG2/4 rather than what do the public know about BOXER/ONEVISION/EASYTV.

    I assume with Setanta Ireland being reformed, the ball is rolling again for DTT and One Vision?


  • #403
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No even less likely. No money to spare. The other thread is about MPEg2 also


  • #404
    The Cush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,053 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Last Tuesday (30th Jun) the Broadcasting Bill passed it final stage in the Seanad, it now goes to the President for signature into law.

    There was a brief debate on DTT amendments including a brief mention of the BCI's on-going negotiations with OneVision.
    An Cathaoirleach: Group 20 deals with digital terrestrial television. The amendments are Nos. 229, 230, 232, 244, 248, 249 and 252 to 254, inclusive.

    Deputy Eamon Ryan: Amendment No. 230 in group 20 sets targets for RTE in respect of the timeline for the roll-out the public service DTT multiplexes. Amendment No. 253 empowers the Minister, by himself or in conjunction with others, to manage the analogue switch off process by promoting co-operation between key stakeholders in the switch off process, commissioning research regarding analogue switch off, promoting public awareness and providing appropriate help schemes for disadvantaged members of our society and, by order, may confer additional functions relating to analogue switch off on ComReg, RTE or the BCI.

    Senator Joe O’Reilly: It is important to ensure the roll-out of digital terrestrial television, DTT. The potential provider, the Boxer company, has pulled out of the process. It would have paid money to RTE, which has already spent €40 million on DTT roll-out, with a potential further spend of €60 million. I urge the Minister to move to get the next company in line and to ensure the roll-out continues. This is important for RTE’s finances and is an important project in its own right.

    Senator Joe O’Toole: I take a different view. I have the same view on digital terrestrial broadcasting as I had on phone masts in 1990 — it is utterly unnecessary. We should have been doing all this by satellite since then and we would not have all these rows about masts all over the country. A satellite system would also have been cheaper. With regard to the €40 million spent, we should write it off as a bad idea with the voting machines. We should just buy a couple of satellite channels and operate the whole system with one press of a switch. At least then the people in the Black Valley in Kerry would get reception with the rest of the country, which they will never get through DTT. I do not intend to oppose the section, however.

    Deputy Eamon Ryan: Senator O’Toole has made an interesting point. However, we do not have a satellite over which we have control. The reason we need the DTT multiplexes is to allow us switch off our analogue system but still retain control through our masts and transmission system for free to air and other programming. It is of strategic interest for the State to have such a transmission system and I am very keen it is introduced as soon as possible. There will be difficulty this summer as the British authorities start to switch off some of their analogue services and some of the spill-over we have will be lost. We need to replace this with a multi-channel offering, which we can do with DTT. However, this is not a matter over which I have direct control.

    The BCI is responsible for the negotiations with the next consortium that is interested. I very much regret that the first contractual arrangements fell at a hurdle. I keep in regular contact with the BCI and hope to see progress on the alternative DTT platform and see it up and running. I am confident we will see progress and that it will provide a good public service. There is a certain urgency to the situation now and I look forward to the successful development of DTT here.


  • #405
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    There will be difficulty this summer as the British authorities start to switch off some of their analogue services and some of the spill-over we have will be lost.

    Absolute nonsense and NOTHING to do with Irish DTT. Such channels are free on Satellite and will be easier to receive in Digital Terrestrial after analogue switch off.

    What strategic need have we to charge people for Irish Broadcast of UK channels that they can easily get for free?

    With FTA satellite, and 75% on Sky/UPC many masts on east and border are down or disused ages ago. With increased DTT fron UK after ASO, some people might put up an aerial, but the dish is simpler and more channels.


  • #406
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The main people with "money" behind Onevision may be more like Parasites than Investors. I can't see it happening.
    The private equity firm that purchased TV3 in 2006, Doughty Hanson, is based in London, with offices in Frankfurt, Madrid, Milan, Munich, Paris and Stockholm. The firm has invested more than €23 billion globally.

    ... the acquisition financed almost entirely through bank debt: €140 million is owed to Anglo Irish Bank and €160 million owed in mezzanine funding to Mellon Corporation, giving total bank debt of about €300 million. It is estimated the annual interest bill in 2007 would have been of the order of €30 million if all covenants were met.
    Starting up payDTT will initally be a loss of 40M+ a year, leveling off to 20M a year. In the current Advertising Climate it's unlikely TV3 is making a profit after ALL outgoings including Debt repayment is considered.

    Doughty Hanson is trying to extract money from Ireland, not invest in the long term in something that is unlikely to make money.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61107057#post61107057


  • #407
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    watty wrote: »
    Doughty Hanson is trying to extract money from Ireland, not invest in the long term in something that is unlikely to make money.

    They had a 3 year plan for TV3 unfortunately for them they came in at the wrong time. TV3 bought Setanta for Doughty Hanson, so that DH could then sell the company on with a load of bells and whistles. hence why they were interested in Spin South West and 4fm licences and the DTT project.


  • #408
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Some posts moved to Broadcasting


  • #409
    channelsurfer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 742 ✭✭✭channelsurfer


    if setanta/Tv3/eircom or whoever want DTT to be succesful then they need a killer reason for people to subscribe such as exclusive premier league rights. considering the irish rights cost sky/setanta 80million pounds (as reported in the papers at the time) for the last 3 year deal before setanta got into trouble I cant see em having 80 pounds to bid never mind 80million.


  • #410
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    IMO but I have said this before: -

    1. DTT has to be rolled out, it doesn't matter what it shows.
    2. DTT effects those people on the analogue terrestrial services more than those on cable or on sat. Work with that 25% of the population when rolling out the new product for get about your "main" areas that are saturated with Cable and Satellite TV.
    3. Make it a free option forget about Pay. The BAI should provide licences to new channels for the DTT service which should be must carries on cable (and hopefully on satellite). We need actual content competitors for RTÉ and TV3.
    4. Have additional Sports and Movies plus a TOP UP TV for pay TV.
    5. People don't care where they get their TV from as long as they get it.
    6. RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 should concentrate on their main channels i.e. RTÉ 1, 2, TV3 and TG4, while providing extra content on other services with little investment. While I hate to say it, TV3 have it semi-right with 3e (I can't bring myself to say they are totally right, this is TV3 FFS, and the marketing of the channels is dreadful). Merge the new PBS channels with TG4.
    7. Finally think about providing BBC 1, 2, UTV and C4. But RTÉ 1, 2, TV3 and TG4 should be available on Freeview in the north. UTV and C4 couldn't argue with it since they have always taken allot of money away from the Republic.


  • #411
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Pay DTT absolutely isn't an alternative to Sky or Cable.

    If people want payTv they will (and have) go for Cable or Sky. Over 70% already.

    Most of the people without PayTV now, don't want it even if it's €9.95.

    We need to have a Launch Date very soon, that is irrespective of any Pay TV launch. PayTV on Irish DTT is a failled policy this last 8 years. If it does launch it will lose about €75M (over 3 to 4 years at best) and go bust.

    RTE has had competitors since 1962. Even before Digital about 70% of households could get ITV. Now it's likely 80% have ITV already.

    If TV3 had more competition they would go bust quicker. At present they can't hardly cover the repayments on their Debt.

    FTA DTT will save money after Analogue switch off and release valuable spectrum for Mobile and Fixed Data / Broadband services.


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  • #412
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,461 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Off topic moved http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055618398


  • #413
    marclt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 855 ✭✭✭marclt


    Boxer launch their packages for the Danish market...

    Maybe we had a lucky escape!?

    http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/08/17/boxer-reveals-danish-packages/


  • #414
    intars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8 ✭intars


    marclt, i don't see anything wrong with danish market offer


  • #415
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    intars wrote: »
    marclt, i don't see anything wrong with danish market offer

    There's no BBC! Where's UTV! :eek:


  • #416
    marclt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 855 ✭✭✭marclt


    Elmo wrote: »
    There's no BBC! Where's UTV! :eek:

    And the price... 8 channels for E24 per month initially.. I know the Irish pricing was lower, but evenstill they clearly couldn't make anything out of it.

    pay DTT has come under criticism in Spain since it was decreed last week - it just doesn't work in a multi-platform environment. If we didn't have such high cable/mmds penetration then I could see it as a viable alternative to satellite for those who don't want the trash channels.


  • #417
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    marclt wrote: »
    And the price... 8 channels for E24 per month initially.. I know the Irish pricing was lower, but evenstill they clearly couldn't make anything out of it.

    pay DTT has come under criticism in Spain since it was decreed last week - it just doesn't work in a multi-platform environment. If we didn't have such high cable/mmds penetration then I could see it as a viable alternative to satellite for those who don't want the trash channels.

    It is good to see kingdoms decreeing stuff :)

    I know that the swedes where unimpressed by Boxers winning of the Irish contract last year.


  • #418
    Sonic_exyouth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Sonic_exyouth


    watty wrote: »
    Pay DTT absolutely isn't an alternative to Sky or Cable.

    If people want payTv they will (and have) go for Cable or Sky. Over 70% already.

    Most of the people without PayTV now, don't want it even if it's €9.95.

    We need to have a Launch Date very soon, that is irrespective of any Pay TV launch. PayTV on Irish DTT is a failled policy this last 8 years. If it does launch it will lose about €75M (over 3 to 4 years at best) and go bust.

    RTE has had competitors since 1962. Even before Digital about 70% of households could get ITV. Now it's likely 80% have ITV already.

    If TV3 had more competition they would go bust quicker. At present they can't hardly cover the repayments on their Debt.

    FTA DTT will save money after Analogue switch off and release valuable spectrum for Mobile and Fixed Data / Broadband services.

    Yes.
    Yes it is.

    Freesat + Free DTT + One Vision's Proposed 'Basic' pay DTT pack = A lot more channels than Basic UPC for less than half the price.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Vision_(DTT)

    In fact, it makes no sense to stick with UPC basic digital .. providing the basic OneVision pack happens.


  • #419
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »
    Yes.
    Yes it is.

    Freesat + Free DTT + One Vision's Proposed 'Basic' pay DTT pack = A lot more channels than Basic UPC for less than half the price.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Vision_(DTT)

    In fact, it makes no sense to stick with UPC basic digital .. providing the basic OneVision pack happens.


    No it is not no it is not.

    Of the One Vision basic pack the following are already FTA via sat

    BBC One (FTA)
    BBC Two (FTA)
    BBC Three (FTA)
    BBC Four (FTA)
    CBBC (FTA)
    CBeebies (FTA)
    BBC News 24 (FTA)
    BBC World Service (FTA)
    UTV (FTA)
    Channel 4 (FTA)
    E4 (FTA)
    More 4 (FTA)
    Film 4 (FTA)

    Meaning that the rest are only available via pay TV
    3 Xpose (This may not happen)
    3 Today (This may not happen)
    Setanta Ireland (Do you really need this channel?)
    3e (Do you really need this channel?)
    Living TV (Do you really need this channel?)
    Comedy Central (Do you really need this channel?)
    Nickelodeon (Do you really need this channel?)
    Nick Jr (Do you really need this channel?)
    MTV (Do you really need this channel?)
    Discovery Channel (Do you really need this channel?)
    Ideal World (Do you really need this channel?)
    Gems TV (Do you really need this channel?)

    There is no Setanta Sports pack which will prob be replaced by a HD Sky Sports.

    If you want to have the UK channels you can receive them via freesat
    http://www.freesat.co.uk/ (some of the free channels are much more worthwhile than anyof the payTV channels mentioned above) plus your FTA DTT Irish services: -

    RTÉ One
    RTÉ Two
    TV3
    TG4

    RTÉ One +1 (Might not happen)
    RTE Three (Might not happen)
    RTÉ News Now (Might not happen)
    RTÉ HD (Might not happen)
    The Irish Film Channel (Might not happen)
    Oireachtas TV (Might not happen)

    Now if one vision went with PPV channel, on demand, HD and Sky Premium packs then they might me on to a winner if they package it with FreeSat.

    But none of this is any better than what your currently getting from UPC, Sky and FTA Satellite.


  • #420
    scath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 558 ✭✭✭scath


    Sonic_exyouth wrote: »
    Yes.
    Yes it is.

    Freesat + Free DTT + One Vision's Proposed 'Basic' pay DTT pack = A lot more channels than Basic UPC for less than half the price.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Vision_(DTT)

    In fact, it makes no sense to stick with UPC basic digital .. providing the basic OneVision pack happens.

    I would expect UPC to modify their price just before DTTlaunch and have the 3 go head to head on ads next year. Should be good for broadcasters. I think that Onevision should consider tieing up with Freesat and concentrating more on premium channels. Of course the danger is switch to sky is made easy, and UPC could argue such is anti-competitive. I'd expect Freesat from Sky to come about in response over here. For one thing the loser would definitely be UPC, with customers having cheap switch between Onevision and Sky. Really there'd be no reason for RTÉ/TV3 to encrypt once Irish DTT TVs come out as indoor aerial should work for most people.


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  • #421
    Elmo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    scath wrote: »
    I would expect UPC to modify their price just before DTTlaunch and have the 3 go head to head on ads next year. Should be good for broadcasters. I think that Onevision should consider tieing up with Freesat and concentrating more on premium channels. Of course the danger is switch to sky is made easy, and UPC could argue such is anti-competitive. I'd expect Freesat from Sky to come about in response over here. For one thing the loser would definitely be UPC, with customers having cheap switch between Onevision and Sky. Really there'd be no reason for RTÉ/TV3 to encrypt once Irish DTT TVs come out as indoor aerial should work for most people.

    I hope they are not still planning to be encrypted via DTT :mad:

    UPC have done a strange modification on their price this week, One package starting at 24.70 the next going up to nearly 70 euro a month :eek:

    http://www.upc.ie/television/

    ESPN for 10 euro and Setanta for 15?????


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