Foinse goes out of business

ejmaztec · 26-06-2009 12:07pm #1

I know that I'm a plastic paddy and couldn't be arsed even beginning to learn Irish, but it's sad that those trying to keep the language alive are dropping like flies.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/national-news/business/10-staff-to-lose-job-as-foinse-goes-out-of-business-1792556.html

Friday June 26 2009

Ten full-time journalists are set to lose their jobs following a decision to close down Ireland's only Irish-language newspaper.
Connemara-based Foinse is set to close this weekend when its current contract with Foras na Gaeilge expires.
Efforts to agree a new contract have been ongoing since last September, but the two sides couldn't agree the terms of a deal.

A Neurotic · 26-06-2009 12:17pm

I've never looked at Foinse in my life, but I've always intended to. And I know enough about it to know that this is a big loss. Balls

big b · 26-06-2009 12:26pm

They had 10 full time journalists?

The paper rarely had 10 pages.

sorry, but not entirely surprised, to see it go.

My name is Mud · 26-06-2009 12:28pm

I read this as Fonzie goes out of business.

AAAYYYYYYYYYYY

Stephen · 26-06-2009 12:30pm

So did I. Damn recession, dey took ar fonzies.

silverharp · 26-06-2009 2:38pm

happy days!

AnonoBoy · 26-06-2009 2:44pm

I too mistook this for an Arthur Fonzarelli thread.

markopantelic · 26-06-2009 2:46pm

dissapointing or should i say 'tá dioma orm'

Pop's Diner · 26-06-2009 2:49pm

Sunday, Monday, Happy Days.
Tuesday, Wednesday, Happy Days.
Thursday, Friday, Redundant.

Banter Joe · 26-06-2009 3:46pm

Riamfada · 26-06-2009 3:50pm

Well if they tried to appeal to the English speakers of the world to buy their Irish product then they might stay in business.

jdivision · 26-06-2009 4:24pm

Another example of why the Irish language is just an industry reliant on grants

upmeath · 26-06-2009 5:21pm

jdivision wrote: »

Another example of why the Irish language is just an industry reliant on grants

I can see where you're coming from, but it's not just the fragility of the language that's exposed. The print media is in turmoil all over the world at the minute.
Here in Ireland, the industry is sound enough. The papers charge €1.80 on weekdays, €2 on weekends (can't wait for somebody to correct me and tell me the Star is a paper :rolleyes:) and many have websites which are updated in real time and carry banner ads, clean as a whistle and financially robust.
In the US you get your daily newspaper from a box on the side of the street for a mere 25 cents (less than 20 eurocent). So where do the journalists get their salaries from? Advertising. And with a large number of companies who could previously shell out huge sums on ads struggling to balance books at the minute, the papers are being cut off from their main source of income. Some papers have gone out of business as a result, others have been subsumed into media conglomerates, and the smart ones have turned to the internet, where raw materials (paper and toner) aren't needed and advertising still brings in the bucks.
Poor old Foinse catered to a niche market, granted, but the argument that Irish language media outlets need care and nurturing won't stand alone - TG4 has been a successful venture, and some of the country's most celebrated media personalities are known for broadcasting as Gaeilge - Hector Ó hEochagáin and Daithi Ó Sé are just two examples. The Irish language has gained popularity and become somewhat trendy over the last decade or so, the mechanisms for teaching it have changed, Peig Sayers is no longer the be all and end all of Irish literature, and it's a lot more fun than it used to be. Print media, on the other hand, is stuggling, and I'd be inclined to think Foinse bit that bullet.

TheZohanS · 26-06-2009 5:36pm

jdivision wrote: »

Another example of why the Irish language is just an industry reliant on grants

Like this one?

Delta Kilo · 26-06-2009 5:36pm

upmeath wrote: »

the argument that Irish language media outlets need care and nurturing won't stand alone - TG4 has been a successful venture,

Eh no. TG4 is not successful. Last year they were forced into revealing their accounts by TV3 who sued them in the EU courts. It revealed that they took in €25m in grants from the government and made, under their own steam, the massive sum of €3m. So that is essentially a loss of €22m.

Now if that is what you call care and nurturing then maybe your argument holds water, however I would disagree. To hell with the Irish Language, there is only 10,000 speaking it...it is costing a fortune, everything has to be translated, official documents, luas announcements, train announcements, bus notices... It is a waste.

It is time we stopped flogging this dead horse!

upmeath · 26-06-2009 6:03pm

Delta Kilo wrote: »

Eh no. TG4 is not successful. Last year they were forced into revealing their accounts by TV3 who sued them in the EU courts. It revealed that they took in €25m in grants from the government and made, under their own steam, the massive sum of €3m. So that is essentially a loss of €22m.

Forgive me, I wasn't aware of the account deficit. But despite financial troubles it's been a cultural success, the Irish language is there and holding its own on the airwaves, whatever about the newstands.

Delta Kilo wrote:

To hell with the Irish Language, there is only 10,000 speaking it...it is costing a fortune, everything has to be translated...
...It is a waste

Where did you pull that figure out of? About 3% of the population uses Irish everyday, and countless more use it occasionally. Dozens of Gaelscoileanna have opened in the last ten years and the language has gained special status in the EU in the last few years.
If you think the Irish language has a cushy ride then look at the German-speaking community of Belgium, they number less than 80,000 (or 0.75% of the Belgian population) they have regional autonomy, and state publications have to be printed in Dutch/Flemish, French and German as a result. And did I mention they have their own MEP? I know German isn't a minority language, it's spoken by 80 million people next door to Belgium, but the German speaking community in Belgium cost a lot more to the taxpayers of Flanders and Wallonia than the Irish speaking community do to the Irish taxpayer. And the language is spread evenly throughout the country, Meath and Waterford have as many Irish speakers as Mayo or Donegal do.

banquo · 26-06-2009 6:07pm

Or just started taking seriously how we teach it to kids and not the joke of an education i went through.

Purple Gorilla · 26-06-2009 6:08pm

Sad

It was a great tool for LC Irish!

My name is URL · 26-06-2009 6:11pm

The language will have disappeared within 25 years.

I know not many people agree with this but its not a bad thing. Its progress and social evolution.

It's good to hold onto traditional values, but only for tradition's sake.

big b · 26-06-2009 6:18pm

My name is URL wrote: »

The language will have disappeared within 25 years.

I know not many people agree with this but its not a bad thing. Its progress and social evolution.

It's good to hold onto traditional values, but only for tradition's sake.

They said the same in Scotland more than 25 years ago. It's still going alright & the first all Gaelic college just opened.
It's a pity a sh*tty education system turned so many people away from it. We're so proud of a lot of heritage, but diss our own language. A shame.

biko · 26-06-2009 6:20pm

Delta Kilo wrote: »

Now if that is what you call care and nurturing then maybe your argument holds water, however I would disagree. To hell with the Irish Language, there is only 10,000 speaking it...it is costing a fortune, everything has to be translated, official documents, luas announcements, train announcements, bus notices... It is a waste.

It is time we stopped flogging this dead horse!

I agree, the biggest language wins. No need for translations/mistakes.
The most common/biggest language in the European Union is German, followed by French. Which do you prefer?

rororoyourboat · 26-06-2009 6:24pm

Where's the evidence that the language will be dead in 25 years? To be honest, it's people that don't really know what they're talking about always spout statistics like this.

I have worked with the Irish language, in an all-Irish speaking envoirnment and the industry built up around the language is quite robust. There will be some casualties with the "R-word" all around and sadly, Foinse just couldn't cut it.

dlofnep · 26-06-2009 6:27pm

It's sad to see Foinse go. I must admit, I've only bought it 2 or 3 times in my life, and as a self-admitted language activist - I should have bought it more often. I would obviously like to see it supported, and it's sad to see people lose their jobs.. At the end of the day - I along with every other person who liked the language should have supported it by buying it.

I'd like to wave fingers, but I'm probably just as to blame as anyone else. In saying that - I don't tend to buy any newspapers at all. I read online - the likes of Nós and so on.

Still - I am a little saddened to see Foinse go - and further saddened for people to use it's demise as an excuse to bash the language.

As for those who say the language is dieing - where's the evidence? In the past 5 years, the language has seen a huge surge and I use it daily with many of my friends.

Tar.Aldarion · 26-06-2009 6:27pm

Magnus wrote: »

I agree, the biggest language wins. No need for translations/mistakes.
The most common/biggest language in the European Union is German, followed by French. Which do you prefer?

Ì'd love if everybody spoke the same language. Since I know French, lets pick that one. :pac:

Delta Kilo · 26-06-2009 6:33pm

upmeath wrote: »

Where did you pull that figure out of? About 3% of the population uses Irish everyday, and countless more use it occasionally. Dozens of Gaelscoileanna have opened in the last ten years and the language has gained special status in the EU in the last few years.

Article in the Sunday Independent Life section, I think it was last weeks edition. That was based on CSO figures from the last census.

It also highlighted that virtually nobody in Dingle agreed with Eamonn Ó Cúiv's decision to change the name to Daingean because they feared the tourists would not recognise it. They felt as if it was like Coca Cola changing their name! Just highlights how much of a money-spinner this whole Irish "culture" is.

The Gaeilscoileanna are nothing only evidence of the middle-class snobbery rampant in Ireland. They send the kids their because of the perceived higher standard of teaching and also, as much as I hate to say it, because of the lack of foreign nationals and lower class children present in such schools.

Don't get me wrong, I like Irish. I have just completed the Irish School System and enjoyed learning Irish, paper 1 anyways. Why, oh why do students have to learn about how Máirtín Ó Direáin wishes to die, or what Cathal O Searcaigh thinks about in his spare time? It turns SO many people off Irish and tbh I don't blame them.

I just think that it is unsustainable in its current form. Radical changes need to take place in the classroom for any hope of it to succeed.

big b · 26-06-2009 7:05pm

The houses taking in summer students down here seem as busy as ever...

biko · 26-06-2009 7:28pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Ì'd love if everybody spoke the same language. Since I know French, lets pick that one. :pac:

The language of luuuurvv

D'accord.

Nolanger · 26-06-2009 7:46pm

They should have changed it to a Polish newspaper as there's more people in this country who can actually read that language.

ejmaztec · 26-06-2009 7:50pm

Nolanger wrote: »

They should have changed it to a Polish newspaper as there's more people in this country who can actually read that language.

That would be novel, all of the summer students heading off to the Poltacht areas to brush up on their language skills.

dlofnep · 26-06-2009 8:41pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

That would be novel, all of the summer students heading off to the Poltacht areas to brush up on their language skills.

lol @ poltacht

markopantelic · 26-06-2009 8:52pm

the thing is in ireland(and dublin) at least a rise in people speaking irish also indicates a better society..don't ask me why but i think people who learn irish particulary in school are always good at other languages as well like my cousin is fluent at irish, english, german french and spanish

JC 2K3 · 27-06-2009 1:19am

It was a pretty crap paper. Meh, tbh. I support the Irish language, but wouldn't revere something just because it's in Irish.

kwestfan08 · 27-06-2009 2:33am

I think a lot of people who want to keep irish alive are only doing so as to have a kind of safety blanket scenario, like irish is here phew, now i'll get on with not speaking it. Like irish is not even the second most spoken language in Ireland these days on a daily basis in peoples homes. The government should definatly scale back its commitment to Tg4 IMO. What has it given us except hector, who wasnt even speaking proper irish ("tá mé as mo bhosca lads!.....etc) and reruns of mtv shows. Some of that ?25 million could be spent more wisely

An Fear Aniar · 27-06-2009 3:01am

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Sad It was a great tool for LC Irish!

If they had stopped forcing it on people in schools it might have had some chance, but they fúcked it up completely by doing that. Passing the buck to the children. Disaster.

The parents on the Aran islands speak Irish to the kids and the kids reply in English so.... guthanna in éag.

.

thebiggestjim · 27-06-2009 3:21am

My name is Mud wrote: »

I read this as Fonzie goes out of business.

AAAYYYYYYYYYYY

Me too

Run_to_da_hills · 27-06-2009 9:37am

Take Irish out of the school curriculum and get the EU Parliament to ban it and it will soon flourish.

muckwarrior · 27-06-2009 9:46am

To me language is like currency. The less there are the better.

amacachi · 27-06-2009 9:51am

ejmaztec wrote: »

Ten full-time journalists are set to lose their jobs following a decision to close down Ireland's only Irish-language newspaper.

I can't believe it took 10 journalists working full time to put it together.

Riamfada · 27-06-2009 10:29am

I honestly believe that in the past 10 years speaking of Irish has developed into a very middle class phenomenon. The rural answer to naming your children "Saibh" or "Oisin" and living in Blackrock.

It is however a cultural money drain. If something is not commonly accepted by the majority of the population as part of their culture then its obviously not that countries culture. Should we stop flogging a dead horse on this one? Most certainly

On a side not there are alot more Polish speakers in Ireland than Irish speakers. Id much prefer my children learned that!

delta_bravo · 27-06-2009 1:17pm

Delta Kilo wrote: »

Eh no. TG4 is not successful. Last year they were forced into revealing their accounts by TV3 who sued them in the EU courts. It revealed that they took in €25m in grants from the government and made, under their own steam, the massive sum of €3m. So that is essentially a loss of €22m.

It is time we stopped flogging this dead horse!

Didnt RTÉ lose €160 m last year? TV stations rarely make money, especially government funded ones. The standard of programming on TG4 is very good, especially their documentary and historical programming which easily outclass any similar recent attempts by RTE

upmeath · 27-06-2009 1:22pm

Grimes wrote: »

I honestly believe that in the past 10 years speaking of Irish has developed into a very middle class phenomenon. The rural answer to naming your children "Saibh" or "Oisin" and living in Blackrock.

I definitely don't believe it's class specific or geographically limited. More kids are being called Irish names across the board, end of.

Grimes wrote:

On a side not there are alot more Polish speakers in Ireland than Irish speakers. Id much prefer my children learned that!

I learned both!

Poland will be the biggest construction market in Europe for the next 15-20 years when things pick up again, might as well mowie po Polsku! But I think our cultural identity, or if you don't identify with it then maybe our cultural heritage, should be preserved and promoted.

Riamfada · 27-06-2009 1:40pm

upmeath wrote: »

But I think our cultural identity, or if you don't identify with it then maybe our cultural heritage, should be preserved and promoted.

Yes but as an archaeologist may I point out that our cultural heritage is not shared by a large degree of our population and our modern cultural identity is even far less "traditional" irish. The "irish" heritage is that of white , middle class, suburban peoples . It strikes me the ignorance of almost all of my irish speaking friends (who speak irish on a daily basis irregardless of the presence of non-irish speakers) of any knoweldge of irish history or heritage other than the events on 1916 and the fact that Newgrage does something with the Sun. Of course im generalising from my own experience.

My personal experience with Irish speakers in UCD is that it is a very elitist preoccupation which has sadly done more damage to it for me than years of poor standard Dublin schooling. I would be more than happy to see the language decline to the remit of academics.

I agree that TG4 does have some very good historical programs but afaik are not the majority of these independent sound & vision productions? I may be wrong on that however.

edit: Ive also been told when asking about why people speak irish and are very miltant about its preservation is that alot of it harks back to anti-British sentiment despite having very limited knoweldge of irish history.

SarcasticFairy · 27-06-2009 2:13pm

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Sad It was a great tool for LC Irish!

I hadn't heard of Foinse before the start of sixth year. I bought it pretty much every week for the year, for the 'Foinse sa Rang' section. In the beginning I did try to read some of the other stuff, but it took far too long for me to decipher what they were talking about, so I had to stop.

It is kind of sad really though.

dlofnep · 27-06-2009 2:25pm

Grimes wrote: »

Yes but as an archaeologist may I point out that our cultural heritage is not shared by a large degree of our population and our modern cultural identity is even far less "traditional" irish. The "irish" heritage is that of white , middle class, suburban peoples . It strikes me the ignorance of almost all of my irish speaking friends (who speak irish on a daily basis irregardless of the presence of non-irish speakers) of any knoweldge of irish history or heritage other than the events on 1916 and the fact that Newgrage does something with the Sun. Of course im generalising from my own experience.

Poppycock! So people have to be educated in the intricacies of Irish history before they can speak the language? And if they speak Irish in the presence of non-Irish speakers, so what? If that was the case, Irish would never get spoken. If I speak Irish to a friend and someone doesn't understand, I'll give them a brief translation of what we're discussing so they don't feel left out, and I think most people do this and if they are not - then they should, unless the conversation has nothing to do with them or is private.

And what in the holy bat-cakes does Newgrange have to do with anything?

Grimes wrote: »

edit: Ive also been told when asking about why people speak irish and are very miltant about its preservation is that alot of it harks back to anti-British sentiment despite having very limited knoweldge of irish history.

Nonsense. I'm the only person in my conversational group that's anyway Republicanally minded, but my reasons for speaking the language transcend politics. Like any other language enthusiasts, people have different reasons for learning it. Some don't want to see a fundamental part of our culture disappear and actively promote it to ensure it's not lost. Others, especially in the North learn it to re-affirm their culture, and where opposition parties try to block and language act attempts and their culture is infringed upon - it further gives rise to the language movement. If you tell someone that they can't eat their own cake, they will eat their own cake whether you like it or not!

For someone who lambasts people as ignorant - you've demonstrated yourself to equally ignorant.

I suppose the Welsh language movement has no substance either, right? Those "militant" about it's use, despite the language being actively discouraged using humiliation as a tool to stop it's use in school via the Welsh Knot. No merit in their movement I suppose?

Similarly, Irish was removed from schooling curriculum and as a teaching medium upon introduction of the National Schools. Once again, seeing the language actively discouraged from being used. Combined with the death of the majority of the Irish speakers in the famine saw the transformation of a bilingual Ireland, into an English speaking country.

So - So what if people want to bring back our language to the forefront of modern day Ireland? Big whoop! So what if people want to speak the language?

Riamfada · 27-06-2009 2:31pm

Oh you are entirely right and honestly I am geralising as a result of the bad experience I have had with Irish and Irish speakers. I am also going on what I have been told by Irish speakers in my experience. I just find it very hypocritical of alot of people to promote the Irish language without any regard for other aspects of their culture. I have no problem with people speaking the language but I do have a problem about being attacked because I do not support it, a bit like your post above.

Regarding what you say about bringing your language to the forefront of modern day Ireland. It is exactly that, your language and a minority language. Its not my language nor a large part of my heritage and I was born here, I resent it being forced upon me or costing taxpayers money simple because it is Constitutionally protected as being the first language of the country. I have to say again I have no problem with anyone speaking it at all.

dlofnep · 27-06-2009 2:47pm

Grimes wrote: »

Oh you are entirely right and honestly I am geralising as a result of the bad experience I have had with Irish and Irish speakers. I am also going on what I have been told by Irish speakers in my experience. I just find it very hypocritical of alot of people to promote the Irish language without any regard for other aspects of their culture. I have no problem with people speaking the language but I do have a problem about being attacked because I do not support it, a bit like your post above.

What other aspects of their culture? Dance, music? I'm failing to see the logic why someone who studies the Irish language automatically must study every other aspect of Irish culture by default? Although personally, I am keen an all aspects of Irish culture and history.

Grimes wrote: »

Regarding what you say about bringing your language to the forefront of modern day Ireland. It is exactly that, your language and a minority language. Its not my language nor a large part of my heritage and I was born here, I resent it being forced upon me or costing taxpayers money simple because it is Constitutionally protected as being the first language of the country. I have to say again I have no problem with anyone speaking it at all.

That's fine. If you have an issue with it, take it up with your local TD (preferably a FG one as they are anti-Irish) and try and get a referendum pushed on the language, and we'll see what the people of Ireland want. I'm comfortable in knowing that the majority of the people support the language.

scop · 27-06-2009 3:11pm

I actually don't think Irish people care not for Irish so much as Irish people care little for other languages.

Teach your kids Polish? What like the way we can all speak French, German and Spanish? Purlease.

If you want to save Irish do what the Europeans do: textbooks in the native language only, emphasis on discussion, grammar as secondary to communication, and give Irish some damn context (a place to speak it for example).

ejmaztec · 27-06-2009 3:22pm

scop wrote: »

I actually don't think Irish people care not for Irish so much as Irish people care little for other languages.

Teach your kids Polish? What like the way we can all speak French, German and Spanish? Purlease.

If you want to save Irish do what the Europeans do: textbooks in the native language only, emphasis on discussion, grammar as secondary to communication, and give Irish some damn context (a place to speak it for example).

Pornographic novels in Irish only would be the clincher. The lads would get down and dirty with the Irish language, and be fluent in no time.

scop · 27-06-2009 3:26pm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Pornographic novels in Irish only would be the clincher. The lads would get down and dirty with the Irish language, and be fluent in no time.

Well if you told a class of guys that on Friday they get to speak Irish with the girls from the school across the road that might be incentive.

An Fear Aniar · 27-06-2009 3:49pm

scop wrote: »

If you want to save Irish do what the Europeans do: textbooks in the native language only, emphasis on discussion, grammar as secondary to communication, and give Irish some damn context (a place to speak it for example).

No. No teaching it in schools. It kils it stone dead.

TG4 is good, continue that.

.

dlofnep · 27-06-2009 3:58pm

An Fear Aniar wrote: »

No. No teaching it in schools. It kils it stone dead.

Disagree. The Gaelscoileanna have completely reinvigorated the language. If a subject was taught through Irish, along with conversational focused Irish classes - it would do quite the opposite.

Foinse goes out of business

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