Romanians being forced home yay or nay?

philologos · 26-06-2009 01:58PM

emma6606 wrote: »

The Roma Gypsies should all be quarantined before being allowed in here in the first place... dirty smelly gits - coming over here with their exotic diseases.

Yes, and the Jews deliberately gave us Europeans the Black Death, and ate our children.

Davei141 · 26-06-2009 02:01PM

Jakkass wrote: »

No there really isn't a difference. You are generalising people of minority group X, based on the behaviour of a portion of group X. I personally believe that people should be assessed as individuals in respect to their actions. It's the only way we can effectively decide on these things. It is also why our justice system is based on innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. If our judges were like you, if a Roma person was suspected of pick pocketing you'd have them accused guilty before hearing the evidence. Why can't we apply this innocent before proven guilty to our views of ethnic / racial minorities. That's what I really can't understand.

People go on life experiences, its that simple. If i get robbed by a Roma at an ATM what do i do next time i see a group of them at another ATM? Do i go straight up thinking ah sure that's not the same ones who robbed me last time or do i find another machine? What if its a Junkie who held a syringe to me because i had my phone out. Do i walk past another group of junkies next time having a good old text? You are being extremely naive, no matter how good you are trying to be.

You make it out as if every Roma steals for a living. To be honest with you when 75% of Roma live in poverty I'm quite frankly not surprised why they steal. If I were starving I would probably steal particularly if I was trying to provide for myself and my family.

Would you bring your babies out as distraction tools and in an effort to get somebody to hand over money? Make excuses all you like, they are just a nuisance.

In other countries in the Balkans the Roma have been put into prostitution out of desperation by higher gangs. I don't think we are being reasonable in understanding the situation that these people are in before we suddenly leap into judging them.

So put up with it because they get treated poorly elsewhere? Just because stuff like that happens in other countries it doesnt mean they can scam their way through life here and expect people to just go ah sure the poor divils need to scam.

I've encountered quite a few yes. I unlike you do not believe that I can base my view of 100% based on a group of individuals.

No but you believe you can make excuses for them. "75% in poverty, prostitution, i understand why they steal and scam."

Everyone is subject to the law, don't be so ridiculous. They have been given entry into Ireland for a reason, therefore I think they should have every right to settle here.

Everyone is subject to law. Apart from the kids they send in to rob stuff knowing that they cant get in trouble for being minors.

The real solution for the Roma problem would be if charitable projects could be set up to find housing and work for these people, giving them real opportunities. Perhaps also to disperse them around amongst other cultural groupings so as to challenge them to integrate and not to form ghettos. Why aren't we talking business if we truly want to solve the problem though?

A bit like giving travellers housing only for them to absolutely wreck the place. If they want to get work how about sending their kids to school instead of using them as pawns in their scams.

These people are all just like you and me when we get down to it, except they have had to endure much harder than you or me. As such I prefer to be a realist and think of solutions rather than take the far-right xenophobic (and that's exactly what it is) line of booting minorities out.

What about drug dealing scum from bad areas, should they get a free pass when they shoot a rival dealer in the head. After all, they had a harder life than us. Lets all get together and give them a great big hug.

I'm not particularly nationalistic. I feel that some people take a ethnic view of what Irishness is, it won't work in the future. Being Irish must be subject to change. I personally consider the Irish as the people who are currently living in Ireland. As the demographics change, so does what it means to be Irish. Personally I think the Roma, Romanians, Afghans or anyone else coming into this country are as entitled to it as I am if they have legal permission.

The roma are a parasite to ireland, they aren't irish.

markopantelic · 26-06-2009 02:03PM

Jakkas makes a good point, Roma have no 'homeland' anyway, so where do you send them? I think they originate from the Punjab region of India but ye they are humans I guess, the world is their home. Umm maby send them to Mars or something?

Nehaxak · 26-06-2009 02:03PM

As others have said, change the poll to what it should be "Roma gypsies" and NOT Romanians.

Then I'll vote on it.

Dyr · 26-06-2009 02:06PM

markopantelic wrote: »

I think they originate from the Punjab region of India but ye they are humans I guess, the world is their home

The world is their jacks more like.

dlofnep · 26-06-2009 02:07PM

The first thread where Jakkass is actually the voice of reason. What on earth has happened boards?

Whether you agree with Roma immigration or not, it does not justify the verbal and physical attacks against them. I'm glad you all take moral guidance from loyalist hoods - if it's not a catholic like Kevin McDaid - it's them "dirty m'grants". Not only have the Roma & Romanians being subject to attacks like this, but also the Polish, native Irish, and basically anyone who doesn't fit into the scheme of things with loyalism.

I'm disgusted to read some of the comments on here. Not one of you knew the families involved. You can stereotype all day if you want, but it just reveals your inherent bigotry.

markopantelic · 26-06-2009 02:08PM

not gonna disagree with that.

PaulieD · 26-06-2009 02:10PM

markopantelic wrote: »

What is it about those three words?

And don't worry about houses, we could house the entire roma population in europe with all the vacant estates around ireland at the moment.

And why the hell would we do that? There are 8 million Roma gypsies in Europe. Do you want to bring them all to Ireland?

They are not Irish and we owe them nothing.

markopantelic · 26-06-2009 02:10PM

dlofnep wrote: »

The first thread where Jakkass is actually the voice of reason. What on earth has happened boards?

Whether you agree with Roma immigration or not, it does not justify the verbal and physical attacks against them. I'm glad you all take moral guidance from loyalist hoods - if it's not a catholic like Kevin McDaid - it's them "dirty m'grants". Not only have the Roma & Romanians being subject to attacks like this, but also the Polish, native Irish, and basically anyone who doesn't fit into the scheme of things with loyalism.

I'm disgusted to read some of the comments on here. Not one of you knew the families involved. You can stereotype all day if you want, but it just reveals your inherent bigotry.

This is it for me, I'm not even able to say I find Roma immigration to have positive aspects because I just haven't seen any of it. From what I can see the Roma don't come here to better themselves or anything but violence used to move them? and people voting yes? are they taking the piss?

Davei141 · 26-06-2009 02:11PM

dlofnep wrote: »

The first thread where Jakkass is actually the voice of reason. What on earth has happened boards?

Whether you agree with Roma immigration or not, it does not justify the verbal and physical attacks against them. I'm glad you all take moral guidance from loyalist hoods - if it's not a catholic like Kevin McDaid - it's them "dirty m'grants". Not only have the Roma & Romanians being subject to attacks like this, but also the Polish, native Irish, and basically anyone who doesn't fit into the scheme of things with loyalism.

I'm disgusted to read some of the comments on here. Not one of you knew the families involved. You can stereotype all day if you want, but it just reveals your inherent bigotry.

Yeah we all have that opinion because we are loyalists. God save the queen.

philologos · 26-06-2009 02:11PM

Davei141 wrote: »

People go on life experiences, its that simple. If i get robbed by a Roma at an ATM what do i do next time i see a group of them at another ATM? Do i go straight up thinking ah sure that's not the same ones who robbed me last time or do i find another machine? What if its a Junkie who held a syringe to me because i had my phone out. Do i walk past another group of junkies next time having a good old text? You are being extremely naive, no matter how good you are trying to be.

You ring the authorities the first time, and cancel your ATM card like most normal people do. Then generally one could carry on as previous.

Let me ask you, if I get robbed by a Jew at an ATM, and if I see Jews at the ATM, let's say they are ultra-Orthodox and I can tell immediately that they are Jews. Do I act the same as I normally would? Of course! I can't assume that all Jews will act the same.

Davei141 wrote: »

Would you bring your babies out as distraction tools and in an effort to get somebody to hand over money? Make excuses all you like, they are just a nuisance.

I've experienced this before too. I managed to stop it with a few times of saying "No, thanks". The idea eventually sunk in. I saw the childs father across the other side of the road having clearly told him to do this. Personally, if I was in poverty, and I needed to get food for myself and my family I'd have given it a shot.

Davei141 wrote: »

So put up with it because they get treated poorly elsewhere? Just because stuff like that happens in other countries it doesnt mean they can scam their way through life here and expect people to just go ah sure the poor divils need to scam.

Perhaps we should be trying not to treat them as badly and to give them a real shot at living here in Ireland instead of bad mouthing them continually?

Davei141 wrote: »

No but you believe you can make excuses for them. "75% in poverty, prostitution, i understand why they steal and scam."

Man, I'm telling you. If I were in a poverty situation I probably would thieve and scam too if the livelihood of my family and I depended on it. It certainly wouldn't be right, but I can't assume that I would act any different if I were in that situation.

Davei141 wrote: »

Everyone is subject to law. Apart from the kids they send in to rob stuff knowing that they cant get in trouble for being minors.

Where did I say that they weren't? For goodness sakes. Look, if I stole to provide for my family, and then got put in jail, I'd know it was for a fair reason even though it was for a necessary purpose. What I'm saying is we should be trying to help the Roma get into stable homes, stable jobs so that these things won't happen in the future. Understand me?

Davei141 wrote: »

A bit like giving travellers housing only for them to absolutely wreck the place. If they want to get work how about sending their kids to school instead of using them as pawns in their scams.

Can they afford to bring their children to school in many cases? Things cost. Ireland's a capitalist economy.

Davei141 wrote: »

What about drug dealing scum from bad areas, should they get a free pass when they shoot a rival dealer in the head. After all, they had a harder life than us. Lets all get together and give them a great big hug.

No. Rehabilitation in prison should sort that out if convicted. Education should also be an option and of course receiving stable housing to be repaid when they get stable work.

Davei141 wrote: »

The roma are a parasite to ireland, they aren't irish.

What is Irish? All it means to me is that I was lucky to be born here instead of some other part of the world such as Botswana.

markopantelic · 26-06-2009 02:12PM

PaulieD wrote: »

And why the hell would we do that?

They are not Irish and we owe them nothing.

Yes Paulie I really believe Ireland would be able to house all the Roma in Europe.

dlofnep · 26-06-2009 02:13PM

Davei141 wrote: »

Yeah we all have that opinion because we are loyalists. God save the queen.

I never stated that you were. But the views on here share similar levels of bigotry. I suppose that new-born child deserved to be subjected to that harassment because it was a Roma baby?

K-9 · 26-06-2009 02:15PM

Irishcrx wrote: »

Actually no, I wasn't stereotyping I was giving my opinion on personal expieriences that I have had with them which have all been bad.

The 70 families?

OK, Everybody is going on about Roma.

Does anybody have some information that they are actually, you know, Roma?

Morlar · 26-06-2009 02:17PM

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

PaulieD · 26-06-2009 02:17PM

markopantelic wrote: »

Yes Paulie I really believe Ireland would be able to house all the Roma in Europe.

I have no problem with my taxes housing Irelands poor. Charity starts at home.

You though, Marco, are a hypocrit. You support Israel and want Israel to remain Jewish, yet you champion the rights of all and sundry to emigrate to Ireland. Why is that?

mick.fr · 26-06-2009 02:21PM

K-9 wrote: »

The 70 families?

OK, Everybody is going on about Roma.

Does anybody have some information that they are actually, you know, Roma?

They probably were not even Gypsies/Roma anyway since they said many of them were working.
And romanians and gypsies do not live next to each other.

markopantelic · 26-06-2009 02:21PM

I don't want Israel to remain Jewish AT ALL PaulieD. I'm completely against the 'right to return' policy. This is only an internet forum, as a sig I had/have 'Jewish' as its a little unique in Ireland. I don't care that I'm of Jewish(Latvian) descent at all really.

munchkin_utd · 26-06-2009 02:21PM

K-9 wrote: »

The 70 families?

OK, Everybody is going on about Roma.

Does anybody have some information that they are actually, you know, Roma?

Amnesty international is treating it as racism against Roma
I'd believe them

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/belfast-roma-attacks-highlight-european-racism-issue-20090617

PaulieD · 26-06-2009 02:23PM

markopantelic wrote: »

I don't want Israel to remain Jewish AT ALL PaulieD.

Thats not what you said last time I pulled you up on this. So you dont support Israels right to exist. Fair enough.

the_syco · 26-06-2009 02:25PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, and the Jews deliberately gave us Europeans the Black Death, and ate our children.

LOOK! Even the liberals are agreeing with us! Ship them off to Germany [/sarc]

=-=

Question: why did they settle in the most loylist part of NI, or were they put there by social welfare?

Elessar · 26-06-2009 02:25PM

I distinctly remember back when Bertie Ahern was in power, the Romanian foreign minister publicly telling Ahern the Roma were good for nothings and brought nothing but trouble - iirc she advised Ireland directly not to let them in.

Regardless, Northern Ireland isn't exactly the bastion of tolerance or acceptance now is it?

Morlar · 26-06-2009 02:26PM

markopantelic wrote: »

I don't want Israel to remain Jewish AT ALL PaulieD.

So you would support a mass migration of unskilled Roma into the streets of israel ? (in the knowledge that they have approx 90% unemployment and are prone to begging and frequent allegations of anti-social behaviour ?)

Most jewish people I have come across tend to encourage/support migration into europe but never once have I heard a jewish person encourage migration INTO israel (referring to Non-jewish migration here).

PaulieD · 26-06-2009 02:28PM

Morlar wrote: »

So you would support a mass migration of unskilled Roma into the streets of israel ? (in the knowledge that they have approx 90% unemployment and are prone to begging and frequent allegations of anti-social behaviour ?)

Most jewish people I have come across tend to encourage/support migration into europe but never once have I heard a jewish person encourage migration INTO israel (referring to Non-jewish migration here).

Do as I say not do as I do, it seems.

markopantelic · 26-06-2009 02:28PM

PaulieD wrote: »

Thats not what you said last time I pulled you up on this. So you dont support Israels right to exist. Fair enough.

LOL, I said to you that 'Israel should remain Jewish'. Please tell me when this was.

Borneo Fnctn · 26-06-2009 02:29PM

Get them OUT!

philologos · 26-06-2009 02:29PM

Morlar wrote: »

So you would support a mass migration of unskilled Roma into the streets of israel ? (in the knowledge that they have approx 90% unemployment and are prone to begging and frequent allegations of anti-social behaviour ?)

Considering Israel (including Occupied Territories) is only roughly 20,000 sq kilometres in size, and contains 11 million people. I doubt there is much more room. They have enough problems to deal with

Mind you Israel has been accomodating to Sudanese refugees even when Israel is currently has a status of "at war" with them.

Morlar wrote: »

Most jewish people I have come across tend to encourage/support migration into europe but never once have I heard a jewish person encourage immigration INTO israel (referring to Non-jewish immigration here).

Israel contains quite a diversity of people, Arabs, Jews and Europeans being the three most notable groups that come to mind. Although it is slightly off topic.

happyfriday · 26-06-2009 02:32PM

Dardania wrote: »

could you modify the poll to say:

Roma Gypsies
All Romanians
No

Thats the fair way to deal with peoples opinions...

It's the Roma Gypsies that are the problem, they'd take the sight and all out of your eye if they got half the chance. But I had to mark nay as I don't think it's fair to tar them all with the one brush, Romanians are not the problem, most of them can't stand the Gypsies either.

Davei141 · 26-06-2009 02:33PM

Jakkass wrote: »

You ring the authorities the first time, and cancel your ATM card like most normal people do. Then generally one could carry on as previous.

When i ring the authorities do i mention they are Roma's or do i proceed to describe them leaving out the most obvious detail? Oh yes carry on as previous, because being the victim of crime doesnt have any effect on you mentally.

Let me ask you, if I get robbed by a Jew at an ATM, and if I see Jews at the ATM, let's say they are ultra-Orthodox and I can tell immediately that they are Jews. Do I act the same as I normally would? Of course! I can't assume that all Jews will act the same.

If there was a problem in the city with thieving, scamming ultra orthodox jews who never worked a day in their life and every experience with such group had been a bad one, would you act normally then?

I've experienced this before too. I managed to stop it with a few times of saying "No, thanks". The idea eventually sunk in. I saw the childs father across the other side of the road having clearly told him to do this. Personally, if I was in poverty, and I needed to get food for myself and my family I'd have given it a shot.

We know you are talking crap when a "No thanks" gets rid of one. I don't know how often they have grabbed my arm. How do you know he was in poverty? More excuses.

Perhaps we should be trying not to treat them as badly and to give them a real shot at living here in Ireland instead of bad mouthing them continually?

Let them do something decent first?

Man, I'm telling you. If I were in a poverty situation I probably would thieve and scam too if the livelihood of my family and I depended on it. It certainly wouldn't be right, but I can't assume that I would act any different if I were in that situation.

How do you know? Is that your reason for them being a bunch of good for nothing thieves? That they have to do it? That's very convenient for them.

Where did I say that they weren't? For goodness sakes. Look, if I stole to provide for my family, and then got put in jail, I'd know it was for a fair reason even though it was for a necessary purpose. What I'm saying is we should be trying to help the Roma get into stable homes, stable jobs so that these things won't happen in the future. Understand me?

Travellers for years now have had homes given to them and loads of opportunities to go to school, get a job and do well in life yet how many travellers finished school? How many of them still act like scum thieving and scamming? And dont even try tell me they have to do that to survive. Its Deja vu, handing over houses and jobs and suddenly everything will change? It wont change.

Can they afford to bring their children to school in many cases? Things cost. Ireland's a capitalist economy.

You have every excuse covered don't you. Im sure they can stump up some of the scam money to give their child an education, if they WANTED to.

No. Rehabilitation in prison should sort that out if convicted. Education should also be an option and of course receiving stable housing to be repaid when they get stable work.

And a nice telly thrown in.

What is Irish? All it means to me is that I was lucky to be born here instead of some other part of the world such as Botswana.

If they consider themselves Irish, then they are Irish. If they don't, they ain't. I doubt the Roma's give a crap about nationality, once they can scam people they are happy.

PaulieD · 26-06-2009 02:33PM

markopantelic wrote: »

LOL, I said to you that 'Israel should remain Jewish'. Please tell me when this was.

You said you where very pro Israel, the foundation of the Israeli state was "a jewish state for jewish people". It is next to impossible for non Jews to immigrate to Israel. You said you support this. Thats fair enough, but why do you then support the rights of all and sundry to immigrate to Ireland?

When I called you up on the "Proud to be Jewish" signature you deleted it and claimed it was a "laugh". Sure it was. As I said, you are a hypocrite.

Romanians being forced home yay or nay?

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