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Call to legalese brothels in Ireland.

124678

Comments

  • #92
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You are also throwing in your fair share of ad-hominems too. Let's be mature and calm?

    I am calm. What you're misconstruing as anger or whatever is simply just the way I talk, I'm quite blunt. No fault to either party.
    It will only improve certain things, it will also exacerbate some things also. I just think that getting the prostitution business down as small as possible would mean that less women would be affected by this. Whereas where it is legal more women are involved in the trade and more women will be affected by factors such as financial coercion leading them into prostitution against their will. Policing allows the Government to control how small the prostitution business is given how much support is left aside for it. I just think it's more effective than legalisation. I don't think it's one bit hypocritical to ensure that as few women as possible manage to get roped into this business so that they will have no risk at all of the abuse, and the financial coercion that other women are under. Minimising is much much more effective than maximising.

    Look, I see where you are coming from, but I cannot possibly agree with it given what reasoning I have on how best we can deal with the issue.

    Sam covered that bit so I won't bother replying to it as I agree. Only thing I take issue with is your reasoning, because I haven't seen any of your reasoning yet, I've just seen a total lack of understanding of the industry and what prohibition does.
    I disagree, I've got a rather robust backing compared to some of the proponents on this thread. Minimising makes more sense to me than maximising. Maximising means the threat is more possible and more real, and that people who cannot find another way of life are more likely to think that prostitution is a last resort, but at least is avaliable to me. This raises big exclamation marks over genuine consent in the prostitution business for me.

    I don't think that I have lost credibility for bringing real world examples into the discussion to demonstrate my points.

    What real-world examples have you referenced? I must have skipped over them.
    I haven't pushed my opinion at all. You effectively posted to me, that you'll have no problem with me if I see things your way and agree with you. How immature is that? I personally don't care if people agree or disagree with me, and I don't care if I convince anyone, I just want to bring a few points to the table and think a bit about the issue. As such, leave the frustration and the anger elsewhere and just calm down :)

    No, I didn't tell you to accept my opinion. I told you to accept reality. Like if you said the sky was purple and I said it was blue and you needed to accept it. It's just how it is. Hardly immature when correcting someone who does not have a grasp on the reality of the subject matter, is it?

    I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything but the truth and the facts. Opinion does not factor in, is what I'm trying to tell you.

    And again, there is no frustration or anger, I just have a very blunt manner of speaking.


  • #93
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    partyguinness wrote: »
    But Jackass, do you think:

    a. That prostitution is not all bad; and
    b. Legalisied prostitution may bring benefits that might reduce the exploitation gangs etc involvement which is already there
    c. Some women make a career choice to become escorts for money, to pay for college and it is just a job?

    a. I disagree with this notion, but this isn't relevant to why I think prostitution should remain illegal. The notion that all prostitution is bad would however motivate me not to seek out one.

    b. It may improve some elements, but I believe it will exascerbate others. Limiting how many women will be effected by this would work better than legalising it and allowing much more women to be involved in this risk. Limiting the risk is better than maximising it.

    c. All prostitutes regard it as just a job. However, I don't think the majority would pick it over another job if they were offered it. I don't think when we are dealing with prostitution we should be looking at some. As when we look at some we ignore the rest. We have to take a full and complete picture of this. The complete picture suggests that there are problems with prostitution even in countries where it is legal. Hence why I support minimising the prostitution industry so small that it will affect far less people than it would if it were fully legal.

    Less people involved, less of a problem. More people involved, more of a problem.
    partyguinness wrote: »
    If there is a chance that legalised prost would reduce exploitation etc that it is a chance worth taking? (Note: I use the word "reduce" not eradicate)

    It's a chance worth taking, but we should take the path that is likely to be most effective. That path for me is keeping it legalised and policing it tightly.
    partyguinness wrote: »
    A little story, I used to live in Stoneybatter. As ye may or may not know there are a good few street prostitutes in the area. When I moved out one evening, I had a load of condoms in my bedroom. I put them in a bag and handed them to one of the regular girls I used to see in the area. I told her that she needed them more than I did. TBH I felt good about myself afterwards as my good deed for the decade.

    That is a good deed. It would have been a better deed if someone came up to one of them and offered them a stable job and prospects for the future without having to have sex with strangers.


  • #94
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    shqipshume wrote: »
    Why was my post deleted?I told the truth they would rob your teeth from your head and stab you in back as quick as look at you.

    I didn't insult any member here and now i am not allowed to tell the truth about prostitutes.
    How many of you people actually ever knew one in the sense of everyday life? :rolleyes:

    Unless you said it a few times it wasn't deleted:
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60777039&postcount=86

    And if they were working in a legitimate business that problem would be pretty much eliminated. As it stands men who are robbed can't go to the gardai because they'd be arrested themselves


  • #95
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Jakkass wrote: »
    b. It may improve some elements, but I believe it will exascerbate others. Limiting how many women will be effected by this would work better than legalising it and allowing much more women to be involved in this risk. Limiting the risk is better than maximising it.

    Which is a better situation:

    1. 10000 women being exposed to a 5% risk
    2. 1000 women being exposed to a 95% risk?

    Limiting the number of people exposed to a risk is not the same as limiting the risk. You'd be far better of addressing the factors that cause the risk no? The main one being that it's illegal

    Say for example you run an airline and you know one of your planes has an intermittent fault. Is it better to only allow it to fly 10% of its normal amount or to fix the fault?

    And of course the above assumes that the number of prostitutes would increase ten fold which is not necessarily the case


  • #96
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Unless you said it a few times it wasn't deleted:
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=60777039&postcount=86

    And if they were working in a legitimate business that problem would be pretty much eliminated. As it stands men who are robbed can't go to the gardai because they'd be arrested themselves

    Thanks thats odd i cant see it:confused:

    It doesn't get eliminated as there is always going to be business for trafficking women no matter what they do.You know in Amsterdam they have legalised but still has the illegal prostitution there because they don't want to pay taxes neither the prostitutes or they the gang members.

    So that's their problem they shouldn't be going there in first place any woman who sells herself for sex in first place is going to as i said rob your teeth from your head anyway.You go with the risks involved cry about it but don't expect sympathy for it.
    Sorry i think lowest form of women are in that work.You can not eradicate it by making it legal.There will always be illegal and then to see them popping up around the place.Just opens more avenues and ways for criminals to expand their business.Its also immoral and disgusting.

    God the answer with some people legalise it and then you control it lol wait lets see legalise paedophilia there you go what next:rolleyes:


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  • #97
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    How can you honestly feel good about equating taking advantage of a young, innocent child and giving it severe psychological damage for the rest of its poor little life to the business dealings of two consenting adults?

    What the hell, dude?!


  • #98
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I never said it would stop it, in fact I said the exact opposite several times :rolleyes:

    What I'm talking about is minimising the risks and legalisation and regulation is the best way to make sure these problems don't happen whereas prohibition has proven to be ineffective. Basically you're saying "legaisation can't 100% guarantee eliminating the problems so let's continue with the system that has allowed the problems to continue for thousands of years and hope that this year is the lucky one"

    No i say leave them in the back alleys and let them choose that dirty life if they want to.Majority of them women is there own fault they are in that in first place and i have not a single bit of sympathy for them.Only reason government don't like it is because they don't get any money out of it.Other wise not a one of them would care less if they were there or not.
    You can not wipe out or control prostitution ever,And i for one don't want my sons and daughters growing up in a country were morals have gone out the window to satisfy a few people who think should be legalised and a government who would only be doing it for the money and not for good of the country.
    Only way to keep it under control is to keep it as dirty and shaming for anyone who goes these places or who work in it or own it.Thats how you control it keep it dirty.You pull it out of there and pretty soon it wil be on every fecking corner legal or not its still disgusting.


  • #99
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    shqipshume wrote: »
    It doesn't get eliminated as there is always going to be business for trafficking women no matter what they do.You know in Amsterdam they have legalised but still has the illegal prostitution there because they don't want to pay taxes neither the prostitutes or they the gang members.

    So that's their problem they shouldn't be going there in first place any woman who sells herself for sex in first place is going to as i said rob your teeth from your head anyway.You go with the risks involved cry about it but don't expect sympathy for it.
    In Amsterdam say 10% of the prostitution is illegal because they want to evade tax and because of this you want a situation where 100% is illegal and none of them pay tax :confused: Again, I'm talking about reducing the problem, not eliminating it.

    What kind of a woman robs someone when he knows her name and where she works and he is likely to go to the police because he's done nothing illegal? She'd want to be pretty thick no?
    shqipshume wrote: »
    Sorry i think lowest form of women are in that work.You can not eradicate it by making it legal.There will always be illegal and then to see them popping up around the place.Just opens more avenues and ways for criminals to expand their business.Its also immoral and disgusting.
    There is a huge black market for counterfeit DVD's. Should we therefore ban DVD's?
    shqipshume wrote: »
    God the answer with some people legalise it and then you control it lol wait lets see legalise paedophilia there you go what next:rolleyes:
    Where exactly is the victim in a business transaction between two consenting adults?


  • #100
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    shqipshume wrote: »
    You can not wipe out or control prostitution ever
    I think the Dutch, German and several other governments would disagree there because they've done just that
    shqipshume wrote: »
    Only way to keep it under control is to keep it as dirty and shaming for anyone who goes these places or who work in it or own it.Thats how you control it keep it dirty.You pull it out of there and pretty soon it wil be on every fecking corner legal or not its still disgusting.

    I think thousands of years of history would disagree with you there. Also, good old catholic guilt. I'm very glad people of your mentality are no longer in charge of this country


  • #101
    Gone Drinking
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,814 ✭✭✭Gone Drinking


    Reading this thread has made me horny!


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  • #102
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    liah wrote: »
    How can you honestly feel good about equating taking advantage of a young, innocent child and giving it severe psychological damage for the rest of its poor little life to the business dealings of two consenting adults?

    What the hell, dude?!

    I didnt but thats how it will head next dont you see.Accept one thing and more and more come.

    Have you ever met a prostitute or been friends with one? Come on tell me how this business should be in anyway accepted or allowed into a community? You think those women would stay working in a business where they have to pay taxes? they would just go under ground and be doing it anyway.And the pimps will never go away they would still have seedy behind scenes stuff.


  • #103
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    shqipshume wrote: »
    I didnt but thats how it will head next dont you see.Accept one thing and more and more come.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

    In debate or rhetoric, a slippery slope (also the thin edge of the wedge or the camel's nose) is a classical informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B.

    edit: A fallacy is an argument which provides poor reasoning in support of its conclusion by the way


  • #104
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I think the Dutch, German and several other governments would disagree there because they've done just that



    I think thousands of years of history would disagree with you there. Also, good old catholic guilt. I'm very glad people of your mentality are no longer in charge of this country

    And you are so wrong,You would easily know you don't know anyone amongst the criminal world ;) And you have no clue of what truly goes on!

    I am very proud to think like that thank you very much,Nasty immoral and disgusting those women are.They are a scar on face of society and you don't know them at all!
    I am asking you again ever had a friend who is a prostitute? :rolleyes:


  • #105
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    shqipshume wrote: »
    I didnt but thats how it will head next dont you see.Accept one thing and more and more come.

    Uh, no. No, no, no, and NO. That is the most ignorant thing I've read on boards in some time.

    There is NO correlation between TWO CONSENTING ADULTS AGREEING TO ANYTHING (regardless of whether or not you feel it to be immoral) and a CHILD being FORCED into something as absolutely horrible and psychologically damaging as pedophilia.

    You have NO right to go there. Nobody does. Don't you dare attempt to justify what you said, there is no justification. It will never, ever, EVER head that way. Pedophilia will NEVER be right, ever.


  • #106
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    shqipshume wrote: »
    And you are so wrong,You would easily know you don't know anyone amongst the criminal world ;) And you have no clue of what truly goes on!
    ummmmm, they both have large, regulated and controlled industries. There are still people doing it illegally of course but most of the industry is controlled. So I'm afraid it's you that's wrong.
    shqipshume wrote: »
    I am very proud to think like that thank you very much,Nasty immoral and disgusting those women are.They are a scar on face of society and you don't know them at all!
    I am asking you again ever had a friend who is a prostitute? :rolleyes:

    No I haven't. Do you personally know every prostitute on the planet or are you making an assumption based on a few you have come across?

    And do you not think that a legalised prostitution industry might attract a different kind of person to an illegal one?


  • #107
    Quint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Quint


    shqipshume wrote: »
    And you are so wrong,You would easily know you don't know anyone amongst the criminal world ;) And you have no clue of what truly goes on!

    I am very proud to think like that thank you very much,Nasty immoral and disgusting those women are.They are a scar on face of society and you don't know them at all!
    I am asking you again ever had a friend who is a prostitute? :rolleyes:
    Your experience with your 2 "friends" are meaningless. I have 2 friends that worked in the business of fixing wheelchairs and they stole thousands from their company and completely ripped everyone off, complete scum.
    Do I think everyone in this business is scum and it should be banned? No. Use some common sense


  • #108
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    shqipshume: I would not refer to these women as disgusting. If you don't have work and if you have no other choice prostitution is going to look like a pretty good option. However, do most really want to do it or is it sex out of coercion (rape)?


  • #109
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Jakkass wrote: »
    shqipshume: I would not refer to these women as disgusting. If you don't have work and if you have no other choice prostitution is going to look like a pretty good option. However, do most really want to do it or is it sex out of coercion (rape)?

    I didn't want to come to work today but I was coerced by money. It could be argued that work out of coercion is slavery no?


  • #110
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    ummmmm, they both have large, regulated and controlled industries. There are still people doing it illegally of course but most of the industry is controlled. So I'm afraid it's you that's wrong.



    No I haven't. Do you personally know every prostitute on the planet or are you making an assumption based on a few you have come across?

    And do you not think that a legalised prostitution industry might attract a different kind of person to an illegal one?

    No again i am afraid you are wrong.I know people from ansterdam and it is still very very much underground ones going on.Do you always listen to what governments say lol oh boy you would be very wrong to do that.
    There will always be a trade underground and probably even more so if they legalise it.
    Oh wait go to college get a degree in selling yourself for money bravo to your daughter.
    And men cant even talk decent about a woman who has sex on first date,and they want to legalise this lol
    oh give me a break :rolleyes:

    Its called opening something up that should never be opened for the jolies of men again.:rolleyes:


  • #111
    Quint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Quint


    Jakkass wrote: »
    shqipshume: I would not refer to these women as disgusting. If you don't have work and if you have no other choice prostitution is going to look like a pretty good option. However, do most really want to do it or is it sex out of coercion (rape)?

    Some people might think working for a gambling company is immoral. Or cleaning toilets or scrubbing floors is disgusting or degrading.
    What percentage of people have a job cos they love it? Or cos it's their only option of making money? I don't think if you asked a class of kids what they wanted to do many would say working in a call centre or working in tesco


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  • #112
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    Quint wrote: »
    Your experience with your 2 "friends" are meaningless. I have 2 friends that worked in the business of fixing wheelchairs and they stole thousands from their company and completely ripped everyone off, complete scum.
    Do I think everyone in this business is scum and it should be banned? No. Use some common sense


    Yeah two friends and heard what they get up to.;)


  • #113
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    shqipshume wrote: »
    No again i am afraid you are wrong.I know people from ansterdam and it is still very very much underground ones going on.Do you always listen to what governments say lol oh boy you would be very wrong to do that.
    You are not paying attention to what I am saying. 90% controlled is still controlling prostitution. Even 10% controlled is still controlling it. What is not controlling it is making it illegal, ie 0% controlled.
    shqipshume wrote: »
    There will always be a trade underground and probably even more so if they legalise it.
    Oh wait go to college get a degree in selling yourself for money bravo to your daughter.
    And men cant even talk decent about a woman who has sex on first date,and they want to legalise this lol
    oh give me a break :rolleyes:

    Its called opening something up that should never be opened for the jolies of men again.:rolleyes:

    So it's your moral opinion. Personally I am glad that I live in a society where your moral opinions cannot be forced on me. I follow the rule of "do unto other as you would have them do unto you". Prostitution has no effect on anyone except consenting adults, therefore there is no reason for it to be illegal. No one's asking you or your family to become prostitutes so it boils down to: it's none of your business


  • #114
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    Jakkass wrote: »
    shqipshume: I would not refer to these women as disgusting. If you don't have work and if you have no other choice prostitution is going to look like a pretty good option. However, do most really want to do it or is it sex out of coercion (rape)?

    They are seriously are that's my opinion and i am sticking with it.
    I did say in my other post except the ones who are forced into it;) Have met a few of them also with the work i do.
    I would crawl to my death and starve before i would do that.They have got many a choice.And it definitely would not be most thats are forced into it by rape them girls i feel sorry for.Still legalising does not protect them either cause that will always go on even with legalisation.


  • #115
    Irishcrx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx


    Just because it's illegal doesn't mean that it is wrong, there are plenty of laws I disagree with and plenty in the past that have been down right absurd and stayed as law for years, and it also doesn't mean that these girls are bad people or don't deserve more protection in what is at present a dangerous industry, the guards are happy enough to turn a blind eye to the business but what if one of them girls is raped, robbed or murdered does it make it any less wrong because she is a sex worker? I think not. I am totally for legalisation, alot of these escorts don't just hang aroudn the streets, they are smart intelligent girls who made this as a choice.


  • #116
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    ;)
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    You are not paying attention to what I am saying. 90% controlled is still controlling prostitution. Even 10% controlled is still controlling it. What is not controlling it is making it illegal, ie 0% controlled.



    So it's your moral opinion. Personally I am glad that I live in a society where your moral opinions cannot be forced on me. I follow the rule of "do unto other as you would have them do unto you". Prostitution has no effect on anyone except consenting adults, therefore there is no reason for it to be illegal. No one's asking you or your family to become prostitutes so it boils down to: it's none of your business

    And what right have you to decide or make a judgment that my children should grow up in a country where sex with women for money should be legalised.I dont want my kids as i am sure majority of women dont want their kids growing up in society were its accepted.

    So when your daughter decides she want to be prostitute is that ok?;)


  • #117
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    shqipshume wrote: »
    ;)

    And what right have you to decide or make a judgment that my children should grow up in a country where sex with women for money should be legalised.I dont want my kids as i am sure majority of women dont want their kids growing up in society were its accepted.

    So when your daughter decides she want to be prostitute is that ok?;)

    And what right do YOU have to decide or make a judgement what other people do with their lives and bodies, exactly?


  • #118
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    shqipshume wrote: »
    ;)

    And what right have you to decide or make a judgment that my children should grow up in a country where sex with women for money should be legalised.I dont want my kids as i am sure majority of women dont want their kids growing up in society were its accepted.
    Being in the same country while it's happening is not the same as it effecting you. There are lots of things I would rather I didn't have to put up with such as the tv show big brother and people who force their moral opinions on others but unfortunately we live in a free country
    shqipshume wrote: »
    So when your daughter decides she want to be prostitute is that ok?;)
    I'd rather she didn't but if it's her choice as a mature, responsible adult then that's her choice. If I find out that she's doing it for the wrong reasons I will try to convince her to stop but she should not be legally forced to stop doing something that harms no one


  • #119
    shqipshume
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭shqipshume


    Funny men who cant respect the normal every day girl who sleeps with a guy on a one night stand,and gets called a slut and disrespects women,all of a sudden think legalising sex for money is a good thing lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll


  • #120
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    shqipshume wrote: »
    Funny men who cant respect the normal every day girl who sleeps with a guy on a one night stand,and gets called a slut and disrespects women,all of a sudden think legalising sex for money is a good thing lolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

    I'm not one of those people. And why is that funny? Just because I might not approve of something doesn't mean it should be illegal surely?


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  • #121
    Quint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Quint


    shqipshume wrote: »
    Yeah two friends and heard what they get up to.;)
    You're right, I wouldn't call them "friends", they were asshóles. I'd call them co-workers. Where did I say "heard" what they did? I saw it with my own eyes.
    Pretend it didn't happen if you like, it's not like it helps your argument either way.
    I also know 2 people called "Keith" and they're pricks, therefore all people called Keith can't be trusted. They both drive Ford Fiesta's, so anyone who drives one of them is a prick. See where this is going?


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