Call to legalese brothels in Ireland.

Run_to_da_hills

A leading academic today called for prostitution to be decriminalised to protect women forced to work in the sex industry.

I think that this would be a great idea, it would give the Government the much needed extra revenue and would also take heaps of sluts off the live register.

http://breakingnews.iol.ie/news/ireland/call-to-decriminalise-prostitution-in-ireland-415356.html

brummytom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wny_0pi4hR4

Aidric

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

would also take heaps of sluts off the live register.

It wouldn't really though.

Crumble Froo

i think it's a great idea.

can't picture ireland doing it any time soon though.

Gone Drinking

Crumble Froo wrote: »

i think it's a great idea.

can't picture ireland doing it any time soon though.

You seem genuinely upset that brazzers aren't legal.. weird

Crumble Froo

Gone Drinking wrote: »

You seem genuinely upset that brazzers aren't legal.. weird

for the protection of the women, decriminalising prostitution is a fantastic idea.

i have a personal interest in this and this kind of issue is closely related to my work.

M5

Crumble Froo wrote: »

for the protection of the women, decriminalising prostitution is a fantastic idea.

i have a personal interest in this and this kind of issue is closely related to my work.

Pimp or whore? :-P

Crumble Froo

M5 wrote: »

Pimp or whore? :-P

i work in an organisation dedicated to harm reduction.

Gone Drinking

Everyone knows, if they legalised brazzers in this country.. no one would follow the Irish football team abroad.

Which takes me to my next point.. the AIDS epidemic we're going to encounter if Ireland make it through to the world cup in South Africa.

M5

Crumble Froo wrote: »

i work in an organisation dedicated to harm reduction.

lol, i figured that, but this is after hours...

partyguinness

Lets look at it this way...

The Gov is very quick to suggest that we need a more "continental" approach in Ireland re drinking, health care etc...Holland and Germany are held up as role models..so there is no reason why we cant adopt their models in legalising prostitution.

There already is a sex industry in Ireland which the authorities are more than happy to turn a blind eye to.

partyguinness

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Everyone knows, if they legalised brazzers in this country.. no one would follow the Irish football team abroad.

Which takes me to my next point.. the AIDS epidemic we're going to encounter if Ireland make it through to the world cup in South Africa.[/quote]

Please continue and flesh out this rather bizarre point...

BraziliaNZ

In NZ and Oz they have them legalised, i don't see the problem with it. But then again we don't seem to have issues with street hookers here anyway, there's only a handful of them out there, used to live on Blackhall Place and see the odd manky looking prostitute out on the streets, i doubt a knocking shop would employ them anyway. Even knocking shops have standards. All the hookers in Ireland work out of apartments and advertise on the internet, so i can't see the need for brothels here.

Gurgle

Crumble Froo wrote: »

for the protection of the women, decriminalising prostitution is a fantastic idea.

As far as I understand it, prostitution is legal in Ireland.

Whats illegal is soliciting - i.e. a Pimp or customer can't make arrangements, but once the prostitute herself makes the arrangements its all ok.

Brothels therefore are illegal because the Madame is selling the services of others. I have to agree with this situation, as to legalize pimping will lead to exploitation.

The major change I would think to improve the situation of prostitutes would be to legalise advertising and provide a 'safe' place to carry out business. Not a brothel run by a Madame, but maybe a place where the girls can rent rooms and security / protection is available to them in case they need it.

GlindaGale

Ah balls, does this mean I'll have to start payin tax?

Degsy

If brothels were regulated and controlled with regular screening for the girls it would reduce the risk of STIs amongst the punters and the girls.
Obviously,if atoothless,AIDS riddled smackhead showed up looking for a job she'd be told to sling her hook and if it was legalised she'd be less likely to get clients down the canal and give them christ knows what.

philologos

partyguinness wrote: »

The Gov is very quick to suggest that we need a more "continental" approach in Ireland re drinking, health care etc...Holland and Germany are held up as role models..so there is no reason why we cant adopt their models in legalising prostitution.

There already is a sex industry in Ireland which the authorities are more than happy to turn a blind eye to.

Drinking and exploiting women are two different things however . There's no reason why we can't adopt their models on prostitution, but there is every reason why we shouldn't.

Gone Drinking

partyguinness wrote: »

Please continue and flesh out this rather bizarre point...

Letting loose a few thousand drunk Irish to ride brazzers in a country where AIDS affects 20% of adults..

generalmiaow

We really ought to figure out whether is prostitution is legal in this thread before you go arguing whether it should be or not. I think the situation Gurgle refers to is true in the UK, but I don't know about Ireland.

generalmiaow

So far I've got
Towns Improvement (Ireland) Act, 1845

In section 72 the words "Every common Prostitute or Nightwalker loitering and importuning Passengers for the Purpose of Prostitution, or being otherwise offensive, shall be liable to a fine not exceeding Forty Shillings:".

40 shillings is 2 quid decimal, right?

FreeOSCAR

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Letting loose a few thousand drunk Irish to ride brazzers in a country where AIDS affects 20% of adults..

They can do what they like to them once they use protection correctly.
I have a feeling there will be a strong condom campaign going on outside pubs and stadiums next year. FIFA know this is a sensitive issue and they will be wise to try a solution.

generalmiaow

I think Gurgle is right.

(2) In this Act a person solicits or importunes for the purposes of prostitution where the person—

( a ) offers his or her services as a prostitute to another person,

( b ) solicits or importunes another person for the purpose of obtaining that other person's services as a prostitute, or

( c ) solicits or importunes another person on behalf of a person for the purposes of prostitution.

Pimping

9.—A person who for gain—

( a ) controls or directs the activities of a prostitute in respect of prostitution,

( b ) organises prostitution by controlling or directing the activities of more than one prostitute for that purpose, or

( c ) compels or coerces a person to be a prostitute, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable—

(i) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000 or to imprisonment for a term not. exceeding 6 months or to both, or

(ii) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £10,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to both.

Brothels

Prohibition of advertising of brothels and prostitution.

23.—(1) A person who publishes or causes to be published or distributes or causes to be distributed an advertisement which advertises a brothel or the services of a prostitute in the State or any premises or service in the State in terms, circumstances or manner which gives rise to the reasonable inference that the premises is a brothel or that the service is one of prostitution shall be guilty of an offence.
[GA]
(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under subsection (1) shall be liable—
[GA]
( a ) on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,000,
[GA]
( b ) on conviction on indictment to a fine not exceeding £10,000.
[GA]
(3) In any proceedings for an offence under subsection (1) it shall be a defence for the accused to show that he is a person whose business it is to publish or distribute or to arrange for the publication or distribution of advertisements and that he received the advertisement in question for publication or distribution in the ordinary course of business and did not know and had no reason to suspect that the advertisement related to a brothel or to the services of a prostitute.
[GA]
(4) Where an offence under subsection (1) is committed by a body corporate or by a person purporting to act on behalf of a body corporate or an unincorporated body of persons and is proved to have been committed with the consent or approval of, or to have been attributable to any neglect on the part of, any person who, when the offence was committed, was a director, member of the committee of management or other controlling authority of the body concerned, or the manager, secretary or other officer of the body, or who was purporting to act in any such capacity, that person, as well as the body, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable to be proceeded against and punished as if that person were guilty of the first-mentioned offence.

There's no specific offence for being a prostitute in the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act, 1993 which repeals the 1845 one etc. Maybe you can also have a brothel and not advertise it. (edit: sec. 11 forbids managing a brothel)

Degsy

FreeOSCAR wrote: »

They can do what they like to them once they use protection correctly.
I have a feeling there will be a strong condom campaign going on outside pubs and stadiums next year. FIFA know this is a sensitive issue and they will be wise to try a solution.

FFS,football fans are the most idiotic people on earth..what makes you think after a day or a week's solid drinking they'll remember to put on a condom when they've picked up some skank for 5 dollars?
Do people in ireland all wear condoms when riding skanks?The number of skanks pushing buggies would tend to indicate otherwise.

BraziliaNZ

Degsy wrote: »

FFS,football fans are the most idiotic people on earth..what makes you think after a day or a week's solid drinking they'll remember to put on a condom when they've picked up some skank for 5 dollars?
Do people in ireland all wear condoms when riding skanks?The number of skanks pushing buggies would tend to indicate otherwise.

I'm a football fan, we're not all idiots, and if we do qualify and i go down there, of course I'd use protection if I'm humping local skanks.

FreeOSCAR

Degsy wrote: »

FFS,football fans are the most idiotic people on earth..what makes you think after a day or a week's solid drinking they'll remember to put on a condom when they've picked up some skank for 5 dollars?
Do people in ireland all wear condoms when riding skanks?The number of skanks pushing buggies would tend to indicate otherwise.

Not all of them are not going to not remember to put a condom on, most CSW's will use protection aswell.

And while theres definitely a risk associated with all this, HIV is much harder to catch than people believe. I dont think infection will spread at such a high rate as people think during the world cup.

nxbyveromdwjpg

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Everyone knows, if they legalised brazzers in this country.. no one would follow the Irish football team abroad.

Which takes me to my next point.. the AIDS epidemic we're going to encounter if Ireland make it through to the world cup in South Africa.

Hahaha

biko

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I'm a football fan, we're not all idiots, and if we do qualify and i go down there, of course I'd use protection if I'm humping local skanks.

Just don't go male bonding with the locals

generalmiaow

It'd be worth legalising prostitution, while keeping "pimping" illegal or at least extremely formalised because nobody should be forced to remain in such a lifestyle. I don't know about the cases where people are from eastern europe as I don't know whether these sex workers are trafficked or come of their own accord. I'm sure someone in this thread can enlighten me.

RHunce

GlindaGale wrote: »

Ah balls, does this mean I'll have to start payin tax?

you need a pimp?

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Drinking and exploiting women are two different things however . There's no reason why we can't adopt their models on prostitution, but there is every reason why we shouldn't.

Such as..........


Please name me a problem that is not caused by it being illegal, such as trafficking, and could not be eliminated or at least reduced by legalising and regulating it. Preferably I'd like you to name a problem that would get worse if it was made legal.

For example, currently many women are being exploited but if it was legal, a regulatory body could ensure that everyone in the industry was there of their own free will. That's one problem out of the way. So what would get worse by legalising it?

partyguinness

Jakkass wrote: »

Drinking and exploiting women are two different things however . There's no reason why we can't adopt their models on prostitution, but there is every reason why we shouldn't.

Basically you are assuming that all women in the sex industry are being exploited. That is nonsense.

Just like saying that all Lapdancers and Page 3 girls are being exploited. They make conscience decisions to use the body they were given and in fact most enjoy the fact they make a good living from it.

In fact, they would be better placed to protect themselves and work for themselves.

dr.bollocko

Degsy wrote: »

FFS,football fans are the most idiotic people on earth..

Please lay off the generalisations in future.

panda100

Yes I definatly think it should be legalised. The grey area around escorting in Ireland means that many women are put at risk on a daily basis beacuse the law cannot protect them.

If a prostiute is in trouble with a client ,where they are being physically threatening or abusive, then there first port of call should be the police. Most escorts in Ireland at the moment wouldnt feel safe calling the police as there is no real law to protect them.

Also, regular std screening etc should be mandatory and medical examinations undertaken regularly. There should be a state agency regulating this sort of thing. Also,the state agency can inform prositutes of bad and dangerous clients.

Like it or lump it,prostiution exists in Ireland but it remains a dangerous,seedy underworld. Proper enforced legislation surrounding it would mean more saftey for both the client and the escort.

philologos

panda100 wrote: »

Yes I definatly think it should be legalised. The grey area around escorting in Ireland means that many women are put at risk on a daily basis beacuse the law cannot protect them.

Why should the law protect people carrying out illegal activity?

panda100 wrote: »

If a prostiute is in trouble with a client ,where they are being physically threatening or abusive, then there first port of call should be the police. Most escorts in Ireland at the moment wouldnt feel safe calling the police as there is no real law to protect them.

The question is should a prostitute be with a client anyway? Should it be happening if it is illegal?

panda100 wrote: »

Also, regular std screening etc should be mandatory and medical examinations undertaken regularly. There should be a state agency regulating this sort of thing. Also,the state agency can inform prositutes of bad and dangerous clients.

Sure STD screening and medical examinations are all well and good apart from the fact that in Amsterdam there is still a huge gang grip on prositution and a lot are illegally trafficked even where it is legal. It's just easier money for the gangs. They had to take a bit of effort beforehand, now they don't have to.

panda100 wrote: »

Like it or lump it,prostiution exists in Ireland but it remains a dangerous,seedy underworld. Proper enforced legislation surrounding it would mean more saftey for both the client and the escort.

Considering that the clamp down on street prostitution in Swedish cities has been a huge success by police force, I assume the same could be done in Ireland. You're right prostitution will always exist, but we can minimise it significantly. Women shouldn't have to feel that the only way they can make money is through degrading themselves.

Pop's Diner

dr.bollocko wrote: »

Please lay off the generalisations in future.

Agree! You should have said (nearly all) football fans are the most idiotic people on earth.

Back on topic however I sometimes wonder why prostitution is illegial in the first place? The only conclusion I can come to is that the government want to encourage coupling and the nuclear family as much as possible but they know that if a man was given a choice between paying a few quid for a ride or sacrafise months and years of his life suffering nagging and compromising he'd probably choose the former.

The Walsho

Jakkass wrote: »

Why should the law protect people carrying out illegal activity?


The question is should a prostitute be with a client anyway? Should it be happening if it is illegal?

This is why we're saying legalise it. So women will be more protected by the law. Legal or not, there's gonna be prostitution. Legalise it and you can control it and protect the women involved. It'd benefit all parties involved.

Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't legalise it because it's illegal.

philologos

The Walsho wrote: »

This is why we're saying legalise it. So women will be more protected by the law. Legal or not, there's gonna be prostitution. Legalise it and you can control it and protect the women involved. It'd benefit all parties involved.

Your argument seems to be that we shouldn't legalise it because it's illegal.

If one legalises something, more women will be used as prostitutes most likely. Whereas if you put a relatively strict police effort on it you can minimise it. Just because something exists doesn't mean it should be legal. Murder exists, rape exists, theft exists, yet nobody in their right mind would legalise any of these things. Legalising something doesn't remove the connection with criminality or with human trafficking as we've seen in the Dutch case.

partyguinness

Jakkass wrote: »

Why should the law protect people carrying out illegal activity?



The question is should a prostitute be with a client anyway? Should it be happening if it is illegal?



Sure STD screening and medical examinations are all well and good apart from the fact that in Amsterdam there is still a huge gang grip on prositution and a lot are illegally trafficked even where it is legal. It's just easier money for the gangs. They had to take a bit of effort beforehand, now they don't have to.



Considering that the clamp down on street prostitution in Swedish cities has been a huge success by police force, I assume the same could be done in Ireland. You're right prostitution will always exist, but we can minimise it significantly. Women shouldn't have to feel that the only way they can make money is through degrading themselves.

And what about the women who would actually like to work as prostitutes/escorts and see it as a decent wage..not all of them are downdrodden and exploited.

I honestly know a women (friend) who would like to work as an escort..she has a proper job but she says getting paid for someting she likes and enjoys..;)

panda100

Jakkass wrote: »

You're right prostitution will always exist, but we can minimise it significantly. Women shouldn't have to feel that the only way they can make money is through degrading themselves.

Sorry I should have made myself clearer. I don't believe prostitution will always exist and I do completley agree with your last statement.

Prostitution will only exist in a society where money is vital to survive and not only that but a patriachal society where womens bodies have become,and always have been, mere cheap commoditys.

The main reason why anyone goes into prostitution is for money. Despite programmes such as 'Confession of a call girl' that try and glamourise it and make it seem like an independent career choice for an independent women,the reality of life as an escort is not nice.
I find it very hard to believe that a women could 'choose' this career for anything other than financial reasons. Check out any of the escort websites in Ireland to just see what escorts have to deal with and what a degrading job it is. Having to deal with foot fetishes,golden showers etc from men you would never be turned on by in a million years. Also the health and security risks are immense.

There are many articles popping up in magazines of late of true life storys from women saying how they turned to prostiution to pay off their debts in recessionary times.
There was a very positive article in 'Now' magazine this week painting the life of an escort as a glamorous life of expensive underwear and luxorious apartments,making thousands of euro a night. From what I know of escorts in Ireland, this is far from the case!

philologos

partyguinness wrote: »

And what about the women who would actually like to work as prostitutes/escorts and see it as a decent wage..not all of them are downdrodden and exploited.

I honestly know a women (friend) who would like to work as an escort..she has a proper job but she says getting paid for someting she likes and enjoys..;)

If you are to promote this as being legal you need to show me how you intend to minimize the risk of abuse, or women coming to be prostitutes as a last resort. If you cannot, I personally can't support it because there is no way of ensuring that this horrible act doesn't happen to any woman. No woman deserves to be treated only as a sexual object.

partyguinness

Jakkass wrote: »

If one legalises something, more women will be used as prostitutes most likely. Whereas if you put a relatively strict police effort on it you can minimise it. Just because something exists doesn't mean it should be legal. Murder exists, rape exists, theft exists, yet nobody in their right mind would legalise any of these things. Legalising something doesn't remove the connection with criminality or with human trafficking as we've seen in the Dutch case.

How can you equate murder and rape with a decision to provide sexual services?

You are missing the point to an extent. It works in other countries, other cultures and socities like ours, so no reason why it cant work here. And if more women became prostitues, then so what? A free market etc.

I am sure people who clean our toilets feel exploited and downtrodden but they need the money..is that any different in your eyes from a prostitute?

Yes it prob will not remove links with criminals but criminals are connected in every walk of life. They will only move onto to something else. Its more about providing a safer environment, healthy conditions and respectability.

philologos

partyguinness wrote: »

Basically you are assuming that all women in the sex industry are being exploited. That is nonsense.

Considering that most in Holland are of foreign origin it seems to suggest that many become prostitutes due to not being able to get work due to lack of command of the language amongst other reasons. Hence why they see prostitution as a last resort.

partyguinness wrote: »

Just like saying that all Lapdancers and Page 3 girls are being exploited. They make conscience decisions to use the body they were given and in fact most enjoy the fact they make a good living from it.

Do most? Financially they are being exploited, but at least they don't actually have to bear through the process of having a stranger having sex with them.

I find it funny that people in the West think that a woman covered up in a headscarf is disrespectful to women but yet are quite happy with the notion of women wearing absolutely nothing or nearly nothing. It's a strange phenomenon isn't it?

partyguinness wrote: »

In fact, they would be better placed to protect themselves and work for themselves.

Better protected against what? It's very difficult to tell the difference between rape and hired work when dealing with prostitutes.

partyguinness

Jakkass wrote: »

If you are to promote this as being legal you need to show me how you intend to minimize the risk of abuse, or women coming to be prostitutes as a last resort. If you cannot, I personally can't support it because there is no way of ensuring that this horrible act doesn't happen to any woman. No woman deserves to be treated only as a sexual object.

What "horrible act"? You should give women more credit. Are you this offended by pornography?

It seems to me that you have a deep and irrational objection and you are not prepared to listen to any pro arguments no matter what.

Are your issues based on religion?

philologos

partyguinness wrote: »

What "horrible act"? You should give women more credit. Are you this offended by pornography?

I think that there could be abuse involved in pornography also. I would also consider that the objectification of people for purely sexual purposes.

partyguinness wrote: »

It seems to me that you have a deep and irrational objection and you are not prepared to listen to any pro arguments no matter what.

It's not irrational to respect women as being more than sexual objects. I am listening to pro arguments, but that doesn't mean I have to:

a) buy into them.
b) hold them as valid.

partyguinness wrote: »

Are your issues based on religion?

I haven't mentioned religion in this argument so far. I think even if you are not religious you can find something in you that would encourage you to respect women as being more than sexual objects.

partyguinness

Jakkass wrote: »

Considering that most in Holland are of foreign origin it seems to suggest that many become prostitutes due to not being able to get work due to lack of command of the language amongst other reasons. Hence why they see prostitution as a last resort.



Do most? Financially they are being exploited, but at least they don't actually have to bear through the process of having a stranger having sex with them.

I find it funny that people in the West think that a woman covered up in a headscarf is disrespectful to women but yet are quite happy with the notion of women wearing absolutely nothing or nearly nothing. It's a strange phenomenon isn't it?



Better protected against what? It's very difficult to tell the difference between rape and hired work when dealing with prostitutes.

#

Mate, its about choice.

Some people find that not giving a women a choice re education, work and being forced to wear a headscarf is wrong because it is imposing somebody elses will. It doesnt give them a choice. If they want to wear a head scarf then so what? but if they dont have a choice, then that is wrong.

Women should have a choice. If they want to work as prostitutes/escorts then let them at it.

How are Page 3 girls/lapdancers being exploited? For working? Sure we are all being exploited by our employers if that is your logic.

No doubt, there are women who go into prostitution out of desperation in Holland...but they have a choice and at least it is better than being down some dark alley way last at night. There is always a choice.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Why should the law protect people carrying out illegal activity?

The question is should a prostitute be with a client anyway? Should it be happening if it is illegal?

Something should be illegal if it is wrong. Being illegal doesn't automatically make something wrong. It used to be illegal for women to vote for example

Jakkass wrote: »

Sure STD screening and medical examinations are all well and good apart from the fact that in Amsterdam there is still a huge gang grip on prositution and a lot are illegally trafficked even where it is legal. It's just easier money for the gangs. They had to take a bit of effort beforehand, now they don't have to.

Link?

And that's an argument for better regulation, not for no regulation. Trafficking is made worse by making it illegal.

Jakkass wrote: »

Considering that the clamp down on street prostitution in Swedish cities has been a huge success by police force, I assume the same could be done in Ireland. You're right prostitution will always exist, but we can minimise it significantly. Women shouldn't have to feel that the only way they can make money is through degrading themselves.

I remember the article you linked to quoting that. You ignored the bit where the prostitutes themselves said it had just gone underground. Not visible=/= not there

Jakkass wrote: »

If one legalises something, more women will be used as prostitutes most likely. Whereas if you put a relatively strict police effort on it you can minimise it. Just because something exists doesn't mean it should be legal. Murder exists, rape exists, theft exists, yet nobody in their right mind would legalise any of these things. Legalising something doesn't remove the connection with criminality or with human trafficking as we've seen in the Dutch case.

Murder is illegal because you're killing someone, rape is illegal because you are violating someone who is unwilling, theft is illegal because you are depriving someone of their property. Whereas prostitution is illegal because it's possible that some of the women might be trafficked, a problem which is exacerbated by it being illegal. There was a foreign guy working in a restaurant in Dublin a few years who was effectively a slave, only getting food and unable to escape because he had no money. Should we make working in restaurants illegal or regulate it to make sure that doesn't happen?

Something should not be legal just because it exists, no, but it should be legal if proper controls can allow it to happen without anyone being harmed. For example, driving kills over 300 people every year and yet it's legal with certain restrictions such as requiring a licence and imposing speed limits etc. The only outcome of making prostitution illegal is to dramatically increase all of the problems that can possibly be associated with it.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

I think that there could be abuse involved in pornography also. I would also consider that the objectification of people for purely sexual purposes.

What exactly is wrong with objectifying someone for sexual purposes if they are willing and eager to be objectified?

partyguinness

Jakkass wrote: »

I think that there could be abuse involved in pornography also. I would also consider that the objectification of people for purely sexual purposes.



It's not irrational to respect women as being more than sexual objects. I am listening to pro arguments, but that doesn't mean I have to:

a) buy into them.
b) hold them as valid.



I haven't mentioned religion in this argument so far. I think even if you are not religious you can find something in you that would encourage you to respect women as being more than sexual objects.

But you need to give men, some more credit.

Women are of course more than just sexual objects. Nobody wld dispute that for a second. But it must be accepted that

a, There is a sex industry
b. There has always been and always will be a sex industry
c. Putting safe and legal controls can only be a good thing even if you abhorr the whole idea

Do you accept that some women make deliberate and conscience decisions to work as escorts etc because:

a. The money is good, no qualifications needed, flexible hours etc.
b. They perhaps enjoy it
c. They just see it as a job and nothing else

For example, I do not agree with abortion but that doesnt mean I think it should be illegal.

Abortions will be carried out no matter what and I would prefer to see them being carried out in hospitals under medical supervision rather than down some back alley by some randon person with a clothes hanger.

Do you see my point? I do not expect you to agree with prostitution but to accept some realities.

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Something should be illegal if it is wrong. Being illegal doesn't automatically make something wrong.

Right. I agree with this much.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Link?

Since then, a significant number of brothels and "windows" have been closed because of supected criminal activity. In 2009 the The Dutch justice ministry announced plans to close 320 prostitution "windows" from Amsterdam.

At the end of 2008, mayor Job Cohen announced plans to close half of the city’s 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

And that's an argument for better regulation, not for no regulation. Trafficking is made worse by making it illegal, not better

You need to substantiate this. You'd also need to give reasons as to how you could regulate it instead of just saying it needs "better regulation".

The mere number of prostitutes compared to the UK also shows that the number of prostitutes is not higher when it is illegal. I personally would prefer minimalisation instead of exascerbation.

. In 2003 it was estimated that in Amsterdam, one woman in 35 was working as prostitute, compared to one in 300 in London

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I remember the article you linked to quoting that. You ignored the bit where the prostitutes themselves said it had just gone underground. Not visible=/= not there

I said in the post you are quoting that open prostitution decreased. Which is true, it decreased very very radically. You would need to demonstrably show me that prostitution online was to the same volume as street prostitution. I somehow doubt this but I will wait for you to do some research.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Murder is illegal because you're killing someone, rape is illegal because you are violating someone who is unwilling, theft is illegal because you are depriving someone of their property. Whereas prostitution is illegal because it's possible that some of the women might be trafficked, a problem which is exacerbated by it being illegal.

It could be argued that if there is financial coercion the sex between a prostitute doing it out of desperation is not consensual but coerced. I would argue that that is also rape.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Something should not be legal just because it exists, no, but it should be legal if proper controls can allow it to happen without anyone being harmed. For example, driving kills over 300 people every year and yet its legal with certain restrictions such as requiring a licence and imposing speed limits etc. The only outcome of making prostitution illegal is to dramatically increase all of the problems that can possibly be associated with it.

I totally disagree with you here. I have shown you the difference in prostitution between Amsterdam and London. It is far far more widespread in Amsterdam than it is in London. Minimising by police activity is far better if you want to limit how widespread prostitution is. If you want to increase prostitution and regard it as acceptable that's when legalising kicks in.

Sam Vimes

partyguinness wrote: »

For example, I do not agree with abortion but that doesnt mean I think it should be illegal.

Abortions will be carried out no matter what and I would prefer to see them being carried out in hospitals under medical supervision rather than down some back alley by some randon person with a clothes hanger.

Do you see my point? I do not expect you to agree with prostitution but to accept some realities.

I wouldn't bring abortion into it. For people who are against it, legalising it is exactly the same as legalising murder. You might not agree with that but a person who is against abortion thinks that argument is as ridiculous as:

"Murder will be carried out no matter what and I would prefer to see them being carried out in safe place rather than down some back alley."

Quint

Jakkass wrote: »

Women shouldn't have to feel that the only way they can make money is through degrading themselves.

First of all, I don't think women will think it's the only way to make money. Second of all, who are you to say what jobs are degrading or not? You seem to think sex is dirty. Personally, I think working 40 hours a week behind a desk in a job you hate for a pittance is more degrading. If someone wants to become a prostitute they should be.
And as mentioned before, it's already legal, just very strict rules about it which forces it underground