Poker Boards Discussion thread... (BBV thread)

Hyzepher · 15-06-2009 12:04pm

janeybabe wrote: »

Tbh the poker posters are coming across as being self-righteous and insular and utterly uninterested in the wellbeing of boards as a whole. I mean this has always been obvious to most but the level of vitriol in this thread is astounding.

I feel that you have no idea what you are talking about - but continue to make a fool of yourself regardless

Jazzy · 15-06-2009 12:04pm

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Reading this thread, I'm extremely dissapointed.

Now, I'm not a poker player, never posted on that forum, but certainly knew about the massive community that the forum was. I've been following the going-ons since the thread was originally binned, and I thought to myself, will these poker lads ever stop moaning? You did something naughty, and now you're talking a time out. Just calm down and your thread shall be restored soon. I've laughed at a lot of the stuff being said, yeah, other mods are jealous of the BBV thread, take some more happy pills why don't you? A load of nonsense.

But after reading this, I'm actually more than a little shocked at some of the rhetoric coming from the admins on this one. Do you honestly believe that someone who wasn't online at the time of the incident, was equally as culpable as one of the few persons who actually engaged in the actions? Because by punishing the entire forum, that's exactly what you're saying, and that's something that I cannot get my head around, it's absurd. I'll say it right here in the open for users and admins alike, I'd be very concerned that boards is dangerously close to cutting off it's own nose to spite it's face on this one.

Boards is it's users as much as anything, so don't take them for granted.

gotta love the posts where you can just say "pretty much that"

tylerdurden94 · 15-06-2009 12:05pm

Boourns

I would also like to express my thanks to LuckyLloyd/KevIRL/5Starpool/Ste05 for everything they have done for poker. I was only chatting with Lloyd last week in the SE and we were talking about the BBV and he said it was the best thread around and something i seconded.

Wow what a sad sad day if the original BBV cant be brought back to life, talking to some of the lads last night who post but dont really read or get what the BBV is/was about, they cant seem to understand that the poker forum has changed and evolved to soemthing more than it, they just want it to "serious internet business"

I cant really say much more than what has been said 50 times already, but where am i gonna learn about politics, the economy, all the hot wimmins that arent on my radar yet, the randomness of chats that i dont have a clue about that i still read thou and lastly El Stuntman predicting the future and Kayroo being the akinator (http://en.akinator.com/)

seamus · 15-06-2009 12:10pm

kpnuts wrote: »

Seamus, can you not see it's YOUR analogy that is flawed?

With admin punishing the whole poker community for the idiotic actions of a small few, the equivalent in your analogy above is the Gardai arresting and convicting every past, present and future regular of the pub, including all those who weren't anywhere near the pub on the night the shop heist was planned and executed.

Actually, it would be like using the incident to have the pub's licence revoked. Which wouldn't result in "punishment" for its locals, though they would certainly be inconvenienced.

Karl Hungus wrote: »

But after reading this, I'm actually more than a little shocked at some of the rhetoric coming from the admins on this one. Do you honestly believe that someone who wasn't online at the time of the incident, was equally as culpable as one of the few persons who actually engaged in the actions? Because by punishing the entire forum, that's exactly what you're saying, and that's something that I cannot get my head around, it's absurd. I'll say it right here in the open for users and admins alike, I'd be very concerned that boards is dangerously close to cutting off it's own nose to spite it's face on this one.

I actually don't see how removing the thread is punishment, I don't understand the fuss about it at all. It's an off-topic thread. Meaning that it's disposable - the posts are there for real-time (ish) chat and craic, not as a lockbox of information. The thread is not the community, the community make the thread. It shouldn't make a difference whether it's the old thread or the new one.

I'm just utterly baffled about the massive overreaction - especially considering that the thread has been restarted. Little or nothing has been lost - the community still has their offtopic thread.

But then I don't understand the appeal of off-topic threads at all.

ocallagh · 15-06-2009 12:11pm

Again, would like to say thanks to LuckyLloyd/KevIRL/5Starpool/Ste05 for all the work they put into the forum.

janeybabe wrote: »

IMO the poker posters are coming across as being self-righteous and insular and utterly uninterested in the wellbeing of boards as a whole. I mean this has always been obvious to me but the level of vitriol in this thread is astounding.

FYP and IMO I don't think you understand the situation. We're trying to protect something that we built up over 4 years. I see no wrong in that. In stark contrast I see plenty wrong in your post. It's not far off a trolling comment and is hardly going to help matters. Please don't post again if it's going to be along the same lines as above.

Macspower · 15-06-2009 12:13pm

seamus wrote: »

Actually, it would be like using the incident to have the pub's licence revoked. Which wouldn't result in "punishment" for its locals, though they would certainly be inconvenienced.
I actually don't see how removing the thread is punishment, I don't understand the fuss about it at all. It's an off-topic thread. Meaning that it's disposable - the posts are there for real-time (ish) chat and craic, not as a lockbox of information. The thread is not the community, the community make the thread. It shouldn't make a difference whether it's the old thread or the new one.

I'm just utterly baffled about the massive overreaction - especially considering that the thread has been restarted. Little or nothing has been lost - the community still has their offtopic thread.

But then I don't understand the appeal of off-topic threads at all.

this is the whole point of the argument Seamus.. with no disrespect to you or any of the other mods/admins.. but you really don't understand

You would have to be part of the community to realise how big a deal it actually is..

why won't you listen to us genuine decent people and react accordingly.. we are not kids... treat us with the respect we deserve please

Jazzy · 15-06-2009 12:14pm

seamus wrote: »

I actually don't see how removing the thread is punishment, I don't understand the fuss about it at all. It's an off-topic thread. Meaning that it's disposable

you dont get it. simple as that

seamus · 15-06-2009 12:14pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

This is simply incorrect, it is not my job as a poster to report others for misbehaving,

I disagree. As a member of a community, your interest should be in maintaining and contributing to the community. Reporting posts falls under these headings IMO.

opr · 15-06-2009 12:17pm

seamus wrote: »

I disagree. As a member of a community, your interest should be in maintaining and contributing to the community. Reporting posts falls under these headings IMO.

Maybe you have answered this but why was the thread not closed/locked as apposed to moving it to the RB ?

Edit - The admins have shown themselves to be a guiding lights on how to act in situations of this nature.

Opr

Karl Hungus · 15-06-2009 12:17pm

seamus wrote: »

Actually, it would be like using the incident to have the pub's licence revoked. Which wouldn't result in "punishment" for its locals, though they would certainly be inconvenienced.
I actually don't see how removing the thread is punishment, I don't understand the fuss about it at all. It's an off-topic thread. Meaning that it's disposable - the posts are there for real-time (ish) chat and craic, not as a lockbox of information. The thread is not the community, the community make the thread. It shouldn't make a difference whether it's the old thread or the new one.

I'd agree with you, it's just a thread, it is replaceable and the thread itself isn't the community, but... As I understand the situation, something's happened to the thread now that's kinda ****ed it up. Fair enough, things like that can happen and mistakes can be made. But instead of making amends, you're pointing the finger at every single user of the forum, and saying you're responsible for this.

I don't really think the thread itself is that much of an issue, but rather that the way the admins have responded to the users is the issue.

zuroph · 15-06-2009 12:18pm

seamus wrote: »

Actually, it would be like using the incident to have the pub's licence revoked. Which wouldn't result in "punishment" for its locals, though they would certainly be inconvenienced.

boards isnt the law in this analogy, its the pub owner. and a pub owner wouldnt send away good customers.

Goodluck2me · 15-06-2009 12:19pm

seamus wrote: »

I actually don't see how removing the thread is punishment, I don't understand the fuss about it at all. It's an off-topic thread. Meaning that it's disposable - the posts are there for real-time (ish) chat and craic, not as a lockbox of information. The thread is not the community, the community make the thread. It shouldn't make a difference whether it's the old thread or the new one.

I'm just utterly baffled about the massive overreaction - especially considering that the thread has been restarted. Little or nothing has been lost - the community still has their offtopic thread.

But then I don't understand the appeal of off-topic threads at all.

When you say little or nothing has been lost, this is where the part about not understanding the fuss comes in. There is so much information in that thread, it rivaled google for finding things, there was always someone with an answer.
Its basically a photobook of any event poker related from the last five years. Its growth itself was a representation of the poker community in Ireland, in that as poker became more popular, so too, naturally did the BBV. A lot of people first learned how the poker forum worked as part of reading that thread, and countless people from all across boards lurked in it, as it was genuinely funny at times, and often very though provoking.

pgodkin · 15-06-2009 12:19pm

Hi all i've been offline all weekend so what gardai station do i have to turn myself into??? Cant belive that everyone suffers! Have to say didnt think G Bush got a job running boards, Fkc it Obsma brought down the towers so lets bomb the sh@t out of his country, who cares about the 1000's of normal people killed or injured over it.

PS poker mods you are not allowed to leave.

tylerdurden94 · 15-06-2009 12:20pm

seamus wrote: »

I disagree. As a member of a community, your interest should be in maintaining and contributing to the community. Reporting posts falls under these headings IMO.

I have never felt it my duty to report post's, i have on a couple of occasions reported stuff but in general the modding is that good in the forum that stuff is removed and cleaned up that quick that we dont get the chance.

BigCityBanker · 15-06-2009 12:23pm

Horseman, pass by!

KevIRL · 15-06-2009 12:27pm

RoundTower wrote: »

I nominate GuanYin

bops wrote: »

dev - you're some tosser

Bops/RT - These comments really dont help matters. We do appreciate the support but its best for all concerned if we approcach this responsibly

Ollieboy · 15-06-2009 12:29pm

WOW.

I'm really amazed out this instant as totally got out of hand. For mods to feel they have to resigned and post it on a thread instead of a PM makes me wonder about the lack of communication between the SMods etc. There really seems to be a lack of judgement involved in this whole instance.

Maybe what some people have realise is how the poker community has outgrown boards and needs its own site. Something similiar to Blonde-poker or 2+2 etc were podcasts and special rake deals and be obtain for its members has a community, this is something that boards as always failed to achieve and deliver.

I miss the total incident that everyone is discussing and I was never a fan of the BBV thread has it seem to move to fast or had muliple discussion ongoing over a long period of time. But it was popular and loved by lots.

Dev has given a lot to the Irish poker community and he was one that created this site, I think he should be given the time and respect to reflect on a few decisions here. He is also a poker fan.

Maybe Dev could give this community a few options:

1. Help it set up its own community and home with the BBV thread re-instated.
2. BBV thread re-instated in its current form on boards and we continue.
3. Wish this community the best of luck and let them find a new home.
4. Stick to his guns and remove something that a lot of members had contribute too.

Personally I would perfer option one with a new team involve that could manage the forum like a business and let it grow at a faster pace and give something back to its members along with a home.

Finally some of the comments post by non-poker people in this thread indicate the dislike they seem to have for the poker community.

5starpool · 15-06-2009 12:30pm

The fact that with almost no exceptions, EVERY poker forum poster thinks the same way on this issue, must mean something? People say they "don't get it". Fine. However, this is not just about the thread, although that is the poster boy issue. This is about admins not being happy eith general moderation of the poker forum, alluding to this, but not saying it, and then using the issue at hand to have a reason to try and clamp down on the overriding ethos of the poker forum. Someone above said that it is not the community, it is only a thread. This is totally incorrect, and shows how it is not understood by people that are not regular posters/readers.

The issue with 'big threads' though is a red herring I'm fairly sure. In the past there were threads locked in the soccer forum when they got to a certain post because apparantly they break boards. If this is the case why is there a thread with nearly 140k posts, onewith nearly 100k posts, and several 60kish threads? If moving big threads breaks the Db, why did it not break the other night? Why was none of this mentioned as a reason for not restoring the old thread until people started showing how much this really is a deal breaker?

If by punishing the majority for the actions of a few you (admins) think you are better than the few who made fun of the thread in TCN, then I respectfully disagree.

oleras · 15-06-2009 12:30pm

seamus wrote: »

I actually don't see how removing the thread is punishment, I don't understand the fuss about it at all. It's an off-topic thread. Meaning that it's disposable - the posts are there for real-time (ish) chat and craic, not as a lockbox of information. The thread is not the community, the community make the thread. It shouldn't make a difference whether it's the old thread or the new one.

Its about principles Seamus, you may think the thread is disposable, but to the people that volunteered hours and hours of time to both reading it and contributing in it it is not disposable, it is the central focus area of the poker forum, as i am sure you can understand now by the reactions of the community over the weekend and the Mods today. Just because you don't get it does not make it wrong.

As Dev has said, "storm in a teacup", Yes, very much so, but if swifter and more thoughtful actions were taken at the time, eg, pm the mods, tell them sort their forum out or you , as an admin may have to step up and take charge yourself, not delete the whole thread from the whole community, as i said earlier, tres unfair for the others that use it.

Would it honestly be so hard to say, OK, maybe we overreacted, we are but human after all, it was late on a Friday night, maybe we were tired and emotional ? But to dig ones heals in and say stuff like " its never coming back", not you, another admin here, is childish and a small bit insulting to the users and subscribers to Boards.

This could easily be sorted and you would have 4/5 fine and upstanding moderators back and a group of users who feel like they are a community again and not treated like little children when the decisions are made by the adults.

Ponster · 15-06-2009 12:31pm

So if I understand properly the problem is that the thread was moved rather than locked and now we're unable to retrieve it even to leave as a read-only link?

While it may look like it I'm very sure that DeV is discussing with others (hopefully other admins + the poker mods) and I'd expect a resolution to come about pretty soon.

Karl Hungus · 15-06-2009 12:32pm

seamus wrote: »

I disagree. As a member of a community, your interest should be in maintaining and contributing to the community. Reporting posts falls under these headings IMO.

That's something I don't really agree with either. It can be helpful when a post is reported, but there's no rules to say that a user is even obliged to report a post, there's nothing to say that they should when they sign up. To my knowledge it is not now, nor has it ever been a user's duty to report a post. The admins have never taken issue with people who don't report spammers, nobody has been told off for failing to report something.

And that's what I disagree with, this finger-pointing to the community, beyond those who were genuinely culpable. You're taking issue with something you've never taken issue with before, and this is setting a ridiculous and very dangerous precedent. It's toeing the line of black & white, with us or against us thinking.

mewso · 15-06-2009 12:39pm

I have to say I'm very dissappointed to see this but not to waste any time I'll say that I believe the admins have overreacted here. Everything else has been a logical response to that overreaction.

A few posters on the poker forum did something bad. This is something that posters on boards do quite a lot and they get punished for it. To counter this fly buzzing around somebody grabbed a flamethrower.

I really hope the admins acknowledge the ott response here. The poker mods who have the respect of the poker community have stood up over this. Most mods are mods because they are respected, reliable etc. You have to take a step back admins and ask yourselves if 4 poker mods have resigned then they must feel strongly about it so maybe, just maybe the wrong action has been agreed upon by you guys.

It would be a pity to see the poker forum collapse over this and as a forum close to my heart I would be the first to volunteer to create an alternative elsewhere. If and only if it became necessary.

YULETIRED · 15-06-2009 12:40pm

To Seamus.
It's an offtopic thread not a wastebin. The thread has many gems in it that we like to read agian and quote from time to time to show people were talking muck/sense etc. The reason people are protesting is becuase the content therein is quality, quite a lot of the contributors are highly intellectual people and some of their words/predictions/analysis have been very incisive/perceptive, throw in the many hilarious debates and you have a thread that has become highly addictive to many many repected people and boards contributers. You can't simply dismiss this thread with some hogwash about the disposability of the posts therein due to the passing of time, The BBV is basically a microcosm for boards.ie with all the extra crap taken out of it, unfortuantely one or two posts do remain similar to the main forum that need to be acted on, usually it happens.
If you can't understand the over reaction, I reckon it's becuase you aren't bothered to try. I have no problem with all of my posts being deleted but there are many MANY other posts I can use as a reference. I'd like to thank the lads in the thread fo bringing me up to speed on the many issues I had merely a passing interest on. From reading Seamous
Posts it looks like the argument will go around in circles. Why don't you say ONCE and FOR ALL if the thread can be resurrected. Final Word? My stagecoach awaits.

Rb · 15-06-2009 12:41pm

This whole fiasco is absolutely ridiculous.

DeV, for someone so "community" orientated, you've managed to enrage one of the most important sub-communities on the entire site in taking probably the worst action possible against them. You, as a poker player and poker forum contributor should be more than aware of the significance of that thread to the community. It has been through the growth of the poker forum, the poker community and has been there throughout the good and bad times of the poker economy (Pre-UIGEA Party, UIGEA, etc) and now it is gone thanks to what I can only call completely over the top, and reckless moderation.

However, this moderation action wasn't by the fine community made moderators Lloyd, Ste, Star or Laf, but an outsider to the community.The very same community has accomplished many a good things for real life, offline communities, such as the scouts as of late.

I'd imagine the poker forum alone has generated an enormous amount of advertising revenue/ad clicks/ etc etc and yet, surely you're aware such reckless moderation will jeopardise these things? There has been a lot of drama on the poker forum, yet this single act may be what finishes it and moves the poker community and its traffic elsewhere.

The posters and the moderators are saying bring back the old thread and punish those involved as they would be anywhere else on the site, temp site-bans, whatever is necessary without punishing the entire community, yet yourself and the other admins aren't listening.

You said recently that you have relatively little power here, that the communities, moderators etc are those who truly run the site etc etc etc and yet when push comes to shove, the real power has certainly shown its head and all this "community power" becomes more or less nullified.

It's extremely inconsistent and if anything, only shows how out of touch or distant you've become with this particularly sub-community.

The action taken against the forum alone is inconsistent with the moderation anywhere else on the site and I am not surprised to see it was taken by an "outsider", yet am disappointed to see it backed by yourself and certainly do not blame RoundTower and others for believing that this didn't come merely as a result of the hijinx that happened the other night.

To be honest I am absolutely disgusted at the treatment of the poker forum and its community over the past few days and applaud the moderators who've stepped down over this. We have stood by and watched people try to discuss the matter on feedback, only to have the thread locked and the posters told that it was being discussed by the admins and mods. The community then tried to discuss it in their own forum, only to have the threads locked.

Finally, last night the "new" BBV thread appeared and people tried to discuss what was going on. It was a completely calm and fair conversation and yet Kinetic came and pruned the thread as he saw fit and told people that it was being discussed and to wait for DeVore to reply today.

What the **** is this? Kinetic has nothing to do with the poker community and yet he arrived into the poker forum and took over the moderation, despite the poker mods themselves being active.

Yet more reckless, inconsiderate moderation...yet the poker community are the only ones to be punished? Well, that's pretty consistent with what I've been saying regarding the moderation here (yet shunned when I say it) over the past while.

This incident, if nothing else, has shown the inherent flaws in your "benevolent dictatorship". Sub-communities have grown and are flourishing here, yet a few at the top believe they know best about everything, that they know the workings of every community and that their actions are the fairest and most rational. Those the community have put forward to represent them, the poker forum moderators in this case, have been ignored and overpowered merely because others can do so. These are the people who know the community, know what is and isn't important and who have done a fantastic job of governing the community for quite some time now. The Cmods themselves cannot even keep up with the sub-communities in their categories.

Yet, their opinions in this seemingly do not matter and those outside the forum know "best", as usual.

DeV, as someone who tallies about the word "community" so much, I would hope you'll do what is best for the "community" and listen to its members and now resigned moderators. The possible loss as a result of this should surely outweigh the benefit you, and the other admins, must see in this over the top, extreme punishment of the entire community.

seamus · 15-06-2009 12:50pm

opr wrote: »

Maybe you have answered this but why was the thread not closed/locked as apposed to moving it to the RB ?

I can't answer that because I wasn't involved.

zuroph wrote: »

boards isnt the law in this analogy, its the pub owner. and a pub owner wouldnt send away good customers.

Well, I'm actually referring to my original analogy in this, where the BBV thread is "the pub".

oleras wrote: »

Its about principles Seamus, you may think the thread is disposable, but to the people that volunteered hours and hours of time to both reading it and contributing in it it is not disposable, it is the central focus area of the poker forum, as i am sure you can understand now by the reactions of the community over the weekend and the Mods today. Just because you don't get it does not make it wrong.

Agreed; However from the (scant) views I've ever had in that thread it just seemed like "general chat". Which to me isn't worthy of "saving" - that is the hours spent on/in that thread by various users are for their enjoyment at that time, and not necessarily in the interests of pursuing any one particular goal or topic, if that makes sense. Clearly I'm mistaken though, given the importance many posters seem to have placed on the thread - it's a community issue and one that's difficult to make a call on without knowing the community. I'm commentating purely as an impartial outsider here.

Karl Hungus wrote: »

That's something I don't really agree with either. It can be helpful when a post is reported, but there's no rules to say that a user is even obliged to report a post, there's nothing to say that they should when they sign up. To my knowledge it is not now, nor has it ever been a user's duty to report a post. The admins have never taken issue with people who don't report spammers, nobody has been told off for failing to report something.

And that's what I disagree with, this finger-pointing to the community, beyond those who were genuinely culpable. You're taking issue with something you've never taken issue with before, and this is setting a ridiculous and very dangerous precedent. It's toeing the line of black & white, with us or against us thinking.

OK, I probably misworded what I was saying. While we don't require people to report posts, it would seem that in the interests of their community, people should report posts. And failure to report a post is a tacit implication that you either agree with what's happening or you don't care that it's happening. Either case is damaging to one's community.
There have been warnings given to entire forums for failing to report/halt almost identical behaviour in the past.

YULETIRED wrote: »

If you can't understand the over reaction, I reckon it's becuase you aren't bothered to try.

Yes, reading a few hundred thousand posts on a thread to bring myself up to speed was precisely what was on my agenda for today.
If I don't understand, educate me, like the rest of the people have done. Accusing me of being lazy & dismissive is not only offensive, but it diminishes any point you were attempting to make.

YULETIRED · 15-06-2009 12:53pm

seamus wrote: »

Yes, reading a few hundred thousand posts on a thread to bring myself up to speed was precisely what was on my agenda for today.
If I don't understand, educate me, like the rest of the people have done. Accusing me of being lazy & dismissive is not only offensive, but it diminishes any point you were attempting to make.

ok, you are not lazy, you simply didn't even read thet top half of my post. (never mind the bleedin BBV) :rolleyes: It's basically in a nutshell what the thread is IMO.

Nevyn · 15-06-2009 12:57pm

Rb wrote: »

What the **** is this? Kinetic has nothing to do with the poker community and yet he arrived into the poker forum and took over the moderation, despite the poker mods themselves being active.

Kinetic^ is the Games Cat Mod, poker falls under that Cat if there are issues with a forum in his cat and with the mods of one of those forums then he's more then entitled to get invovled.

Hyzepher · 15-06-2009 12:58pm

seamus wrote: »

OK, I probably misworded what I was saying. While we don't require people to report posts, it would seem that in the interests of their community, people should report posts. And failure to report a post is a tacit implication that you either agree with what's happening or you don't care that it's happening. Either case is damaging to one's community.
There have been warnings given to entire forums for failing to report/halt almost identical behaviour in the past.

Can I ask over what time period these posts occurred. I assume it was over a few days so that ALL of the poker community would have had a chance to see/read them and then make a decision to either agree or don't care about them.

You guys need to take a step back and understand what it is that you are saying/doing. Why should I been held accountable for something I neither read or was complicit in.

Why bin a thread that had contributions from many members and not just those from the wrong-doers. I could understand if the thread was solely for the purpose of distrupting the counting thread but it was much more than that.

I can understand if binning the BBV was a mistake or an over-reaction but to continuously come on an post trying to justify it just makes me more annoyed.

ocallagh · 15-06-2009 12:59pm

As RT pointed out earlier, the reasons behind the removal of the BBV were more than likely not confined to the million post. And the reasons behind this thread are not confined to the removal of the BBV. Relations between mods/admins and regular lurkers/posters is the issue and needs to be addressed. The whole system is interesting, I'm amazed it has lasted 10 years without some major blowups and credit has to be paid to Dev and the admins/mods. Saying all that, I think you've all become a bit lazy with the modding. It seems easier to just lock stuff and ban people rather than actually take the time to investigate the issues. The "problems again in the bvv, ffs ok lets just scrap it" attitude is not going to gain you any more customers. Yes there were problems but your solution was just lazy. The protection of moderators is another hot topic. I've seen dozens of perfectly rational arguments put forward by regular posters only to be locked/deleted because they disagreed with a moderator. Again, easier to just delete/ignore/ban than to investigate...

Karl Hungus · 15-06-2009 1:00pm

seamus wrote: »

And failure to report a post is a tacit implication that you either agree with what's happening or you don't care that it's happening.

That's shockingly presumptuous, you simply can't claim to know what a person's intentions were by not reporting something.

Hell, I think it would be even more logical to presume that a lot of people saw what was going on and objected to it, but did nothing because they thought someone else would've reported the post. That would have far more grounding in reality than saying they agree with/don't care what's happening - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect - Maybe that is, or is not what happened, but either way, you cannot point the finger as broadly as you are doing and make sweeping statements as to what people were thinking and what their intentions where.

Hitman Actual · 15-06-2009 1:02pm

janeybabe wrote: »

Tbh the poker posters are coming across as being self-righteous and insular and utterly uninterested in the wellbeing of boards as a whole. I mean this has always been obvious to most but the level of vitriol in this thread is astounding.

Your comments only reinforce the feeling that there may be some resentment towards what is indeed an insular forum, but also a very popular, community-oriented one. I'm not saying that such a resentment exists in general- I would hope that people aren't that petty- but your comments certainly don't help, especially when emotions are running a tad high.

Ollieboy makes a good point- maybe it is time for the poker forum to move on so that it can offer more direct benefits to the Irish poker player. While I'm not a regular poster in Poker anymore, I was heavily involved in it for 4 out of its 5 years, and saw it go from strength to strength while several other Irish Poker forums crashed and burned. It's not an exaggeration to say that the forum here has made a monumental input to Irish Poker. [As a slight aside, a lot of newer posters don't realise that DeVore was also a big contributor in the early days of the forum, so maybe it would be an idea to cut him some slack while he sorts out this mess.]

As for the mods resigning- it's a shame to see four of the best mods on the entire site feeling they have to take such action. Some people have said that the poker forum regulars are over-reacting about the BBV thread destruction, but the fact that four level-headed, rational mods have taken such an action should give an indication of how big an issue this is.

As already said by several posters, thanks to Dom, Ste05, Lloyd and KevIRL for their outstanding modding.

Rb · 15-06-2009 1:05pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Kinetic^ is the Games Cat Mod, poker falls under that Cat if there are issues with a forum in his cat and with the mods of one of those forums then he's more then entitled to get invovled.

There is no issue with the poker forum moderators, they're considered some of the best on the entire site and have ran the forum perfectly.

An issue arises when someone with little or no idea what they're doing or the consequences involved comes along and overrules said peoples actions due to thinking they know "best" and merely because they have the literal power to do so.

CMods should be there to clean up spam or respond to reported posts when the other mods don't get to it, along with moderating their own respective forums, they should not have the freedom to interfere with communities and fora that they have no interest in merely because they don't think the mods there are doing it properly.

At the very least they should bring the issue up with the moderators (unless it is obvious such as spam or a reported post) and see what happens, they should not come in firing at the hip and hoping to do a good job and Kinetic has failed in this regard.

ocallagh · 15-06-2009 1:05pm

Wow ignore my post above, Rb for president

brianmc · 15-06-2009 1:08pm

Karl Hungus wrote: »

That's shockingly presumptuous, you simply can't claim to know what a person's intentions were by not reporting something.

Hell, I think it would be even more logical to presume that a lot of people saw what was going on and objected to it, but did nothing because they thought someone else would've reported the post. That would have far more grounding in reality than saying they agree with/don't care what's happening - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect - Maybe that is, or is not what happened, but either way, you cannot point the finger as broadly as you are doing and make sweeping statements as to what people were thinking and what their intentions where.

Observations of a bystander:

This has to be combined with the nature of the thread that got "attacked". I agree whole heartedly having now stopped to think about it that the thread should not have been attacked. The purpose of The Cuckoos Nest is to facilitate threads of an odd nature and as such, threads of an odd nature confined to the cuckoos nest have the same standing as any other threads.

However, if I saw a bunch of people standing on Grafton Street trying to count to a million by taking it in turns to shout out numbers, I would see less guilt in people trying to throw them off and mislead them. They would be more prepared to handle the hassle (it has to be expected) and I would have less of an "issue" with people dishing out the hassle.

The difference in context is subtle. The subtlety of the difference is the reason that I didn't spot the need to report any posts.

15-06-2009 1:12pm

seamus wrote: »

There have been warnings given to entire forums for failing to report/halt almost identical behaviour in the past.

Why wasn't this precedent applied then? Why was this unique punishment used?

seamus · 15-06-2009 1:17pm

Hyzepher wrote: »

Can I ask over what time period these posts occurred. I assume it was over a few days so that ALL of the poker community would have had a chance to see/read them and then make a decision to either agree or don't care about them.

Actually, I never implied that the entire poker community saw the thread, but certainly a good deal of people did, and this is backed up by a number of assertions that some people, "don't care" or otherwise feel like it's none of their business to report posts.
I think the posts took place over a couple of hours.

to continuously come on an post trying to justify it just makes me more annoyed.

That's actually not what I'm trying to do. What I'm trying to illustrate is the reasoning behind what sequence of events, I'm not trying to justify nor explain away the actions which were taken.

Karl Hungus wrote: »

Hell, I think it would be even more logical to presume that a lot of people saw what was going on and objected to it, but did nothing because they thought someone else would've reported the post. That would have far more grounding in reality than saying they agree with/don't care what's happening - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect - Maybe that is, or is not what happened, but either way, you cannot point the finger as broadly as you are doing and make sweeping statements as to what people were thinking and what their intentions where.

To be fair Karl, it was only when a couple of people offered that they "don't care" about other forums or didn't feel like they could be arsed reporting posts because, "that's not my job", that (to me) they illustrated the kind of mindset which allowed the incident to take place. If they're representative of the community's mindset, then we have a problem and I'm going to point out that problem.
I disagree that the bystander effect is relevant in the case of reporting posts, but that's a discussion for a different thread

I would agree with you, if the entire forum was shut down - which would be a punishment for the entire community. It was a single thread which was effectively closed and as such, no-one was punished. However, by all accounts, for many posters, closing the BBV thread is as good as shutting down the whole forum, creating a new blank one and saying "Start Again". That's why off-topic threads are "bad" as a rule, but we won't go down that road either.

mdwexford · 15-06-2009 1:20pm

Some Mods are really talking rubbish on this thread.

It shouldnt be up to any of you lot to determine whether the thread is worth "saving", its our thread, our posts and our forum. Just put it back and stop being immature and trying to make out you're right by making awful points like "if your not part of the solution you're part of the problem" lmao.

If that thread doesnt go back you have no mods and more than likely a hell of a lot less regular posters, i will be making no posts in this crappy new bbv crap.

Why is there a need for a "new start" Dev, just make your point or rule changes or whatever you want to do and put the thread back, the way you are going your just alienating all the poker forum regulars for no good reason.

Boston · 15-06-2009 1:22pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I've resigned as mod of the poker forum.

KevIRL wrote: »

I'm resigning as Poker Mod also.

Ste05 wrote: »

As much as it hurts, I'm resigning as a Poker mod too

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out lads. If anyone is to blame it's you useless excuses for moderators. Especially KevIRL. I read your post saying it was ok to troll TCN. You're not fit to mod any forum on boards.ie.

5starpool wrote: »

To be honest, I don't liike some of the insinuations against the poker mods specifically that have been made lately in various threads.

- Admins are not the only people who invest their time and effort into this site.
- The poker forum is not the same as the rest of boards. You can try and make it the same but people that currently post there won't have it.
- The amount of stuff I have gone through in the last 31 months modding that site to make it into an effective community, especially on the tournament forum side is not insignificant.
- I cannot moderate poker as others moderate their forums.
- Therefore I can't continue moderating.

This really pains me to write by the way, but I cannot in good conscience be a party to it, and before accusations fly that I was a party to the incident the other night, I was away for the weekend. What I would have done if I saw it at the time is delete the posts in the bbv and tell people to cop on. any punishment they got from tcn or sitewide as a result would have been their issue. However, this style of moderation is not liked by a lot it seems so you can find others who do moderate like that. I personally will be surprised if they are poker forum regulars, but if they are good luck to them. It seems that at least 2 other poker moderaters think the same as me over this issue.

I have nothing against DeV. I have known him for years, and we have never exchanged cross words as far as I can recall, and I hope/presume that this asp[ect will not change when next we meet. I know the admins are doing what they think is right and proper, but I feel strongly enough about this to take the actions I am taking.

This is not Devores fault, it's the "bad apples" and the moderators who allow it to happen. This victimisation bint you're on isn't winning anyone over. Why don't you do like you comrades did and fall on your own sword, at least that would show you taking some responsibility.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Gordon's decision to move the thread to the dustbin while being fully aware of how difficult it would be to move it back was reckless in the extreme. Shocking lack of judgment on the part of an SMod.

Ironic considering the lack of judgement from the poker forum mods.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

So, in your opinion, it is just to punish many for the crimes of a few? And that we have no genuine case to be answered?

Or, is it just that you haven't really read everything, haven't a ****ing breeze what you're on about - but decided to come in and spread some bile yourself?

"Vitriol in this thread". Yummy. The ironing is delicious.

Nah, I recon all the mods should be demodded, the thread restored and the trolling users site banned.

Hank Scorpio · 15-06-2009 1:23pm

I dont post alot in the poker forum and have only met a couple of the regular posters IRL once or twice. I do however lurk and read the BBV thread more than any other thread.

I found the mods there extremly friendly and helpful, and were actually part of the irish poker community, unlike alot of forums where the mods dont exactly know the posters well.

Killing that thread was just a serious blunder, your saying whats the big deal you`ve got a new one, well you`ve just killed a big chunk of Irish poker history be deleting it.

I surf 2+2 a little but no where near as much as the poker forum but i think thats gona change, i feel the reg posters have lost the trust of boards by now and wont be surprised to see them moving to a new site rather soon

Added to this is the total disaster of the soccer forum decisions a few weeks ago where regular respected posters were banned.

More and more i see this over used moderating power on boards and now i have to re think every post i make just to be sure im not breaking any "rules"

Dev i thought you were alright but you screwed up big time, worse still is that you actually posted in the poker forum alot

Fair play to the MODs who resigned

Nevyn · 15-06-2009 1:23pm

Rb wrote: »

There is no issue with the poker forum moderators, they're considered some of the best on the entire site and have ran the forum perfectly.

That's your opinion.

Rb wrote: »

An issue arises when someone with little or no idea what they're doing or the consequences involved comes along and overrules said peoples actions due to thinking they know "best" and merely because they have the literal power to do so.

The cat mod was following the instructions of the admin that's how things work.

Rb wrote: »

CMods should be there to clean up spam or respond to reported posts when the other mods don't get to it, along with moderating their own respective forums, they should not have the freedom to interfere with communities and fora that they have no interest in merely because they don't think the mods there are doing it properly.

There is a chain of command if I do something I should not as a mod in any of the forums I mod then I expect to hear from my cat mods about it.

Rb wrote: »

At the very least they should bring the issue up with the moderators (unless it is obvious such as spam or a reported post) and see what happens, they should not come in firing at the hip and hoping to do a good job and Kinetic has failed in this regard.

What makes you think this didn't happen?
Kinetic^ was not acting outside his remit, infact he was stepping up as cat mods are expected to do.

nuxxx wrote: »

Killing that thread was just a serious blunder, your saying whats the big deal you`ve got a new one, well you`ve just killed a big chunk of Irish poker history be deleting it.

The thread hasn't been deleted it has just been locked and moved it can still be read, referenced, quoted and linked to.

RoundTower · 15-06-2009 1:24pm

Boston wrote: »

This is not Devores fault, it's the "bad apples" and the moderators who allow it to happen. This victimisation bint you're on isn't winning anyone over. Why don't you do like you comrades did and fall on your own sword, at least that would show you taking some responsibility.

so I take it you read the post you quoted

Gillybean72 · 15-06-2009 1:24pm

I have to say.. for the person who suggested that all us poker readers are guilty of the crime because we never reported the posts and to state that we are all up at 1.00am is just stupid.

For a start, many play live poker at the weekends and would have been away at that time. Others, like myself might have been *gasp* SLEEPING and not even aware of anything till they checked in on the forum in the morning.

We are not ALL up at all ungodly hours grinding away, no matter what you might think.

I would like to thank the Poker Mods Ste05, KevIRL, LuckyLloyd and 5Starpool for all their time and support of a forum which was the nicest place to hang out these last two years.

It truly is such a sad day for the poker forum and the community which we have all became part of. You all know from Flushdraw's post of the other day how much the forum meant to the both of us!

I really think the Admins have made a HUGE mistake here. I don't think the poker forum will ever be the same after this.

cardshark202 · 15-06-2009 1:26pm

Boston wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out lads.

What door?

Gillybean72 · 15-06-2009 1:27pm

Boston wrote: »

Nah, I recon all the mods should be demodded, the thread restored and the trolling users site banned.

And replace them with who??? who is going to want to Mod the place after this?

FullOf..IT · 15-06-2009 1:27pm

Boston wrote: »

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out lads.

Brilliant, very constructive, this is gonna get sloppy pretty quick with this sort of Cxxx

Nevyn · 15-06-2009 1:28pm

seamus wrote: »

To be fair Karl, it was only when a couple of people offered that they "don't care" about other forums or didn't feel like they could be arsed reporting posts because, "that's not my job", that (to me) they illustrated the kind of mindset which allowed the incident to take place. If they're representative of the community's mindset, then we have a problem and I'm going to point out that problem.

Well said.

Gary ITR · 15-06-2009 1:29pm

Rb wrote: »

There is no issue with the poker forum moderators, they're considered some of the best on the entire site

By who? I would say allowing a raid on another forum was pretty bad on the part of the mods tbh. I know if I tried something like that in say the noc forum my ass would be booted out of there quicker than I could blink.

Rb wrote: »

An issue arises when someone with little or no idea what they're doing or the consequences involved comes along and overrules said peoples actions due to thinking they know "best" and merely because they have the literal power to do so.

CMods should be there to clean up spam or respond to reported posts when the other mods don't get to it, along with moderating their own respective forums, they should not have the freedom to interfere with communities and fora that they have no interest in merely because they don't think the mods there are doing it properly.

At the very least they should bring the issue up with the moderators (unless it is obvious such as spam or a reported post) and see what happens, they should not come in firing at the hip and hoping to do a good job and Kinetic has failed in this regard.

Kinetic was backing up what had already been stated by the poker mods. I didn't see any poker mods online or taking action when Kinetic carried out his duty. And how do you know that posts were not reported?
I don't think that Kinetic just decided to throw himself in there and throw his weight around

edit: this thread is moving fast. That'll learn me to go to the jacks while typing a reply

Otis Driftwood · 15-06-2009 1:30pm

I never add anything to these types of threads but am compelled to in this case.

Ive never posted in the poker forum including the BBV thread but am a regular lurker.It was one of the most consistently informative and interesting threads that I have ever read on ANY website and to see it closed because a couple of people chose to act the bollix in another thread is pretty sad.

For what its worth I would ask the Admins that have decided to lock it down to reconsider the decision in a few days after the dust has settled and peoples backs arent up as much.

If its a case its gone for good,then boards in general will be a much duller place without it.

Thanks for the memories.

Boston · 15-06-2009 1:31pm

RoundTower wrote: »

so I take it you read the post you quoted

I read it. He only hints at stepping down.

I love the may you guys constantly accuse the Admins of making a mistake without recognising the ones committed by the poker forum regulars and the mods. I don't post in poker, so why should I care more about the poker forum then TCN? Why is the the poker forum's community more important then the one that exists there? Both communities where initially seeded by DeVore, and I sure there are plenty who poored alot of themselves into the TCN. You guys just don't recognises how truely reprehensibly your actions where. There's enought people on the outside of boards trying to rip it apart without those supposedly at the core trying as well. Somewhere along the lines you forgot you were part of a larger community, you stopped giving a ****e about that community, and now we're deaf to you and your needs, just like you were to us.

Rb · 15-06-2009 1:32pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

That's your opinion.
The cat mod was following the instructions of the admin that's how things work.
There is a chain of command if I do something I should not as a mod in any of the forums I mod then I expect to hear from my cat mods about it.
What makes you think this didn't happen?
Kinetic^ was not acting outside his remit, infact he was stepping up as cat mods are expected to do.

Brainwashed much?

It would be appreciated if a poker mod could clarify as to whether Kinetic consulted with them before entering the poker forum last night and pruning a load of reasonable posts on the matter.

The poker mods did not do something they should not have, so going by what you said there was no need for Kinetic, or any other outside party, to step in.

The Poker Forum was the winner of "Best Forum 08" and by extension of that, the poker mods must do one hell of a job, so it is not only my opinion that their standard of moderation was well above a lot of others on the site.

If CMods are expected to enter forums they have no interest in and interfere with communities they have no knowledge of,no interest in and who have probably never heard of them, despite there being community leaders (moderators) present and active in said forum, then there is something very, very, very wrong with the "system" and is in dire need of review, as this behaviour will stunt the growth of any sub-community here.

Poker Boards Discussion thread... (BBV thread)

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