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Poker Boards Discussion thread... (BBV thread)

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24567…16

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    #32
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    lafortezza wrote: »
    That's the admins choice ofc, and I'm trying not to sound like a broken record here, but those people who were responsible for abuse/trolling were listed by Gordon in the reported posts thread in the mod forum. Everyone in the poker forum suffers when they could be disciplined instead?
    I still don't understand why this has to be the case.

    It's like the whole poker forum is being labelled as troublemakers and generally a nasty bunch. There's alot of innocent posters who enjoy boards.ie being punished when there's a much fairer solution available.
    From my POV lafortezza (and bear in mind that I've only been dipping in and out of this over the weekend, I wasn't involved in the dicussion leading to the binning), there was little "innocence" in that thread; not a single person reported the thread. Despite the fact that plenty of lurkers and other people not involved in trolling TCN saw what was going on, they implicitly joined in the craic or otherwise turned a blind eye to it. It wasn't until a TCN (and perhaps poker?) regular brought it to our attention that anyone was aware of what was going on.

    When I see that kind of behaviour, any claims of, "But it was just a few, it wasn't everyone", doesn't really cut it with me personally. Many communties claim innocence and immunity on account of it being the "bad apples" that cause hassle, but the fact of the matter is that when the rest of community turns a blind eye to it, they are equally culpable as the offenders.

    To jump into analogy-time now, it's obvious to everyone that boards is well beyond the "single community" ethos now, and many forums represent a community of their own. There was a time where you could draw a pub analogy with boards, where the site was a pub, with the admins behind the bar and each forum resprenting a different table (or room) with a discussion going on. But it's moved beyond that. Now you have a small city, where the admins are the governors and each forum represents its own pub, with the mods behind the bar and the regulars discussing their topics.

    With that in mind, it's clear that the moderators probably need to take more of an "admin" stance within their own forums, and feel quite free to impose rules and ettiquete which suits the community, but also within the overall site rules/ethos. Except within the case of an individual causing hassle, I don't think it's fair to require the admins to wade in every time a forum collectively creates hassle for the rest of the site, rather it seems appropriate that the individual community is sanctioned and spends their time policing their own problems.

    This is musing off the top of my head btw, and not any kind of "directive" - it's something which needs dialogue across the site.

    One thing that strikes me is that Poker, of all forums, is aware of the "community" aspect of it and how actions by Poker regulars, in the name of the Poker forum, will reflect on the boards.ie Poker community as a whole.
    This is probably something which needs to be made clear to all communities across the site.


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    #33
    Macspower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭Macspower


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    You will not be getting your old thread back.
    DeV has started a new one and you can use that.
    Be aware the if this happens again, you run the risk of not having one at all.
    I suggest you all take that on board for next time so you do not stand by and allow a few people ruin your forum.

    the very first I heard of the problem was whent he BBV was removed and at least 50% of my posts are in there.. It is not up tp us to police our own forums it is up to the mods... if they are not doing their job ( they do a great job btw) then let the admins deal with it..

    No way the whole community should suffer... Dev never said we are not getting the old one back and I await his decision on it... in fact I look forward to debating the issue with him if he will come on and defend his actions as we were told he would if the discussion was kept to this thread


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    #34
    dannydiamond
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭dannydiamond


    BuffyBot wrote: »
    The community has to take some responsibility too - reporting problem posts, telling people to cop on. It's not too much to ask :)

    Didn't all this happen at like 12/1 o'clock in the morning?


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    #35
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    dannydiamond wrote: »
    Nonsense.


    Are you sure!! ;)


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    #36
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    dannydiamond wrote: »
    Didn't all this happen at like 12/1 o'clock in the morning?
    Peak time for people to be online playing and discussing poker, I would have thought :)


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    #37
    El Stuntman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭El Stuntman


    Macspower wrote: »
    the very first I heard of the problem was whent he BBV was removed and at least 50% of my posts are in there.. It is not up tp us to police our own forums it is up to the mods... if they are not doing their job ( they do a great job btw) then let the admins deal with it..

    No way the whole community should suffer... Dev never said we are not getting the old one back and I await his decision on it... in fact I look forward to debating the issue with him if he will come on and defend his actions as we were told he would if the discussion was kept to this thread

    this is utterly correct in my view, if people from the poker forum (or elsewhere) were acting the bollocks, then punish them in the normal manner and move on. A reprisal against the entire poker community just hurts the 99% of posters who had nothing to do with this messing.

    That old thread is the DNA of the poker forum and has some amazing content on every subject under the sun - this collective punishment is both arbitrary and unfair. I would certainly review my opinion and membership of boards.ie if it were not reinstated.


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    #38
    Macspower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭Macspower


    lafortezza wrote: »
    From this poker mods point of view, the only thing I am really concerned about is the fact that every single poker forum poster is getting disciplined for the actions of a few. It's nothing to do with me what happens individually to the posters who invaded TCN in terms of sitebans/bans.

    It's not as if the attack on TCN was covertly organised and can't be traced back to individuals. Yet everyone on poker is punished. Doesn't make sense at all and it is pretty damaging to the community.


    These four points are essentially what it boils down to.

    Personally I'd like to have the old BBV back, but if it is not returned in place of the new BBV then so be it, the poker forum will carry on.
    The danger to the poker forum and its community is that many many members feel that this whole situation has been dealt with very unfairly and without transparency, and that all members are being punished for the f-ups of a few.

    well spoken Laf... the only thing I don't agree with is the highlighted part... I really don't believe the poker forum will continue unless this is sorted.. well definately not on boards.ie and if it does it will not be to the same level as it ever was before as the disrespect shown to some of us ordinary decent posters by mods/admins outside the forum this weekend has been nothing short of insulting..


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    #39
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,156 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    I've resigned as mod of the poker forum.


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    #40
    Lafortezza
    Registered Users Posts: 8,806 ✭✭✭Lafortezza


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    ofc?
    = of course, meaning while I disagree with the admins treatment of this situation, I obviously understand that they are the owners/chief people in charge and their decisions are law.
    seamus wrote:
    From my POV lafortezza (and bear in mind that I've only been dipping in and out of this over the weekend, I wasn't involved in the dicussion leading to the binning), there was little "innocence" in that thread; not a single person reported the thread. Despite the fact that plenty of lurkers and other people not involved in trolling TCN saw what was going on, they implicitly joined in the craic or otherwise turned a blind eye to it. It wasn't until a TCN (and perhaps poker?) regular brought it to our attention that anyone was aware of what was going on.
    I get what you're saying seamus and I can see the admin's side of it. Personally I think there was less turning of a blind eye by lurkers/normal posters, and more insular thinking of "those guys are trolling somewhere else, nothing to do with me discussing poker". The poker mods either skimmed/missed the posts re trolling in the BBV, and Kev gave his explanation in the poker mods thread where a couple of admins read and responded.


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    #41
    Macspower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭Macspower


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I've resigned as mod of the poker forum.

    fair play to you Lloyd... prepared to stand up for what you believe in


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    #42
    RoundTower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭RoundTower


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I've resigned as mod of the poker forum.

    thanks for all your hard work Lloyd, I don't think any of this reflects badly on you


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    #43
    fatguy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭fatguy


    seamus wrote: »
    When I see that kind of behaviour, any claims of, "But it was just a few, it wasn't everyone", doesn't really cut it with me personally. Many communties claim innocence and immunity on account of it being the "bad apples" that cause hassle, but the fact of the matter is that when the rest of community turns a blind eye to it, they are equally culpable as the offenders.
    I completely and utterly disagree. Let me make it clear, I had 800-odd posts on this forum, and 59 of them are in the broadband forum 5 years ago. All of the rest are in Poker. I couldn't give a flying **** about any other forum so why would I bother reporting people for messing with other forums? Why would I report a mod for encouraging it (or failing to stop it)? It doesn't affect me in any way, so I don't care. In your stated opinion, the fact that I'm not an armchair moderator makes me a bad apple and someone you don't want posting to your site. Don't you see why that is bollox, as Killme00 so eloquently put it?
    One thing that strikes me is that Poker, of all forums, is aware of the "community" aspect of it and how actions by Poker regulars, in the name of the Poker forum, will reflect on the boards.ie Poker community as a whole.
    This is probably something which needs to be made clear to all communities across the site.
    Human nature makes this unavoidably true, but I still cannot abide being punished for something someone else did. If the regulars at TCN see that specific Poker forum posters were punished, it will have exactly the same effect as them seeing that the Poker community was punished. The two options have the same end result, but one of them ****s over the innocent and one of them doesn't.


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    #44
    Killme00
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Killme00


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Don't post in this thread again if you have nothing useful or helpful to say.

    It is bollocks. The entire poker forum has been held to account for actions of a few.


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    #45
    Icarus152
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Icarus152


    lafortezza wrote: »
    .... those people who were responsible for abuse/trolling were listed by Gordon in the reported posts thread in the mod forum. Everyone in the poker forum suffers when they could be disciplined instead?
    I still don't understand why this has to be the case.

    It's like the whole poker forum is being labelled as troublemakers and generally a nasty bunch. There's alot of innocent posters who enjoy boards.ie being punished when there's a much fairer solution available.

    This.
    seamus wrote: »
    When I see that kind of behaviour, any claims of, "But it was just a few, it wasn't everyone", doesn't really cut it with me personally. Many communties claim innocence and immunity on account of it being the "bad apples" that cause hassle, but the fact of the matter is that when the rest of community turns a blind eye to it, they are equally culpable as the offenders.

    To jump into analogy-time now, it's obvious to everyone that boards is well beyond the "single community" ethos now, and many forums represent a community of their own. There was a time where you could draw a pub analogy with boards, where the site was a pub, with the admins behind the bar and each forum resprenting a different table (or room) with a discussion going on. But it's moved beyond that. Now you have a small city, where the admins are the governors and each forum represents its own pub, with the mods behind the bar and the regulars discussing their topics.


    To use another analogy,imagine a minority group in ireland (e.g. non-nationals or the travelling community) caused trouble in a local nightclub one night.Innocent customers got hurt as a result.

    The Gardai respond by rounding up all members of the community and punishing them.The Guards excuse? well,they're a tightly knit community and as such they should have been able to police themselves.Or,well,the same thing happened a few weeks ago in another nightclub,time to punish the entire group.

    Unfair?


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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    As someone who has no interest in the poker forum, I feel that it's unfair to kill the thread because of the actions of a few.

    There are other ways to deal with this.


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    #47
    lee_arama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭lee_arama


    What bothers me most about it is that the BBV thread was killed on the grounds that Dev didn't like XYZ being said on it. I've yet to hear what the tone of what was being said was...

    Can I ask if people were organising 133t haxx0r moments or something in order to 'attack' other forums?

    I'm not looking to drag everything up again but I feel that the majority of information as to what really happened was the pervue of a select few, being those who were online around the time of the thread kill.

    Glad to see BBV back but not happy to have lost posts.


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    #48
    KevIRL
    Registered Users Posts: 39,501 ✭✭✭✭KevIRL


    I'm resigning as Poker Mod also.

    This new direction that the Poker forum is going to be forced to take does not sit well with me. Nor do the reasons for it. I mean this with the best of intentions but it does seem as if the poker community does not fit in well with the way the boards community sees itself anymore. Perhaps a parting of the ways is best for both communites.


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    #49
    Macspower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭Macspower


    Killme00 wrote: »
    It is bollocks. The entire poker forum has been held to account for actions of a few.

    while I totally agree with your sentiments and I understand your frustration, but as I requested in my OP , a civil logial argument is called for...


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    #50
    Icarus152
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Icarus152


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I've resigned as mod of the poker forum.
    KevIRL wrote: »
    I'm resigning as Poker Mod also.

    This new direction that the Poker forum is going to be forced to take does not sit well with me. Nor do the reasons for it. I mean this with the best of intentions but it does seem as if the poker community does not fit in well with the way the boards community sees itself anymore. Perhaps a parting of the ways is best for both communites.

    wow.


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    #51
    Macspower
    Registered Users Posts: 3,191 ✭✭✭Macspower


    KevIRL wrote: »
    I'm resigning as Poker Mod also.

    This new direction that the Poker forum is going to be forced to take does not sit well with me. Nor do the reasons for it. I mean this with the best of intentions but it does seem as if the poker community does not fit in well with the way the boards community sees itself anymore. Perhaps a parting of the ways is best for both communites.

    Kev and Lloyd,

    thanks for your hard work in the poker community


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    #52
    lee_arama
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭lee_arama


    KevIRL wrote: »
    I'm resigning as Poker Mod also.

    Shouldn't Cricket Forum Mods be called Umpires?

    GG, TID, etc etc.

    It's both heartening and sad that the poker mods are making a point of principle over this. I feel it highlights the injustice that has been wrought upon the community.


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    #53
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    fatguy wrote: »
    I completely and utterly disagree. Let me make it clear, I had 800-odd posts on this forum, and 59 of them are in the broadband forum 5 years ago. All of the rest are in Poker. I couldn't give a flying **** about any other forum so why would I bother reporting people for messing with other forums? Why would I report a mod for encouraging it (or failing to stop it)? It doesn't affect me in any way, so I don't care. In your stated opinion, the fact that I'm not an armchair moderator makes me a bad apple and someone you don't want posting to your site. Don't you see why that is bollox, as Killme00 so eloquently put it?
    So if you don't care, it's not your problem? I'm sorry, but that indeed is complete bollox. "It's not my problem" is the weakest excuse for allowing "bad things" to happen and is no defence.
    Icarus152 wrote: »
    To use another analogy,imagine a minority group in ireland (e.g. non-nationals or the travelling community) caused trouble in a local nightclub one night.Innocent customers got hurt as a result.

    The Gardai respond by rounding up all members of the community and punishing them.The Guards excuse? well,they're a tightly knit community and as such they should have been able to police themselves.Or,well,the same thing happened a few weeks ago in another nightclub,time to punish the entire group.
    Your analogy is flawed. Imagine a pub with a whole pile of regulars. At one side of the pub, a number of regulars plan out the robbery of a local shop. The rest of the locals and the barmen see this going on but say nothing. When the shop gets robbed, the Gardai storm in, arrest everyone and shut down the pub, even though a number of regulars saw nor heard nothing. Sounds reasonable to me.


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    #54
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,067 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    wow, what a clusterfuck. I never posted in BBV but I did read through it alot, it always seemed respectable etc

    Mods stepping down over this, can't be good for boards' image at all.


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    #55
    FullOf..IT
    Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭FullOf..IT


    KevIRL wrote: »
    I'm resigning as Poker Mod also.

    This new direction that the Poker forum is going to be forced to take does not sit well with me. Nor do the reasons for it. I mean this with the best of intentions but it does seem as if the poker community does not fit in well with the way the boards community sees itself anymore. Perhaps a parting of the ways is best for both communites.


    This is just shocking and a really poor reflection of the standard of modding of this issue. The fact that 2 excellent mods feel the need to do this should be all the evidence needed to see how badly this has been handled.


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    #56
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    Could everyone please get off their dramallama's for a moment.

    A couple of points.

    1. The thread was removed because it was being used to coordinate a bunch of messing on a different forum, ironically to attack another big-thread in another forum.

    2. It wont be starting up again. We may put it back but:

    3. Actually moving such a big thread is extremely bad for the site because the post table has no forum id so for every post in the thread a write to the database has to happen.

    4. The BBV has had a new start which I hope will remind people that using it to have a go isnt on.

    5. The rest of this is storm in a teacup time.

    DeV.


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    #57
    Icarus152
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Icarus152


    seamus wrote: »
    Your analogy is flawed. Imagine a pub with a whole pile of regulars. At one side of the pub, a number of regulars plan out the robbery of a local shop. The rest of the locals and the barmen see this going on but say nothing. When the shop gets robbed, the Gardai storm in, arrest everyone and shut down the pub, even though a number of regulars saw nor heard nothing. Sounds reasonable to me.

    What would the charge be against the entire pub and on what evidence?


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    #58
    5starpool
    Subscribers Posts: 32,849 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    To be honest, I don't liike some of the insinuations against the poker mods specifically that have been made lately in various threads.

    - Admins are not the only people who invest their time and effort into this site.
    - The poker forum is not the same as the rest of boards. You can try and make it the same but people that currently post there won't have it.
    - The amount of stuff I have gone through in the last 31 months modding that site to make it into an effective community, especially on the tournament forum side is not insignificant.
    - I cannot moderate poker as others moderate their forums.
    - Therefore I can't continue moderating.

    This really pains me to write by the way, but I cannot in good conscience be a party to it, and before accusations fly that I was a party to the incident the other night, I was away for the weekend. What I would have done if I saw it at the time is delete the posts in the bbv and tell people to cop on. any punishment they got from tcn or sitewide as a result would have been their issue. However, this style of moderation is not liked by a lot it seems so you can find others who do moderate like that. I personally will be surprised if they are poker forum regulars, but if they are good luck to them. It seems that at least 2 other poker moderaters think the same as me over this issue.

    I have nothing against DeV. I have known him for years, and we have never exchanged cross words as far as I can recall, and I hope/presume that this asp[ect will not change when next we meet. I know the admins are doing what they think is right and proper, but I feel strongly enough about this to take the actions I am taking.


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    #59
    Icarus152
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Icarus152


    DeVore wrote: »
    Could everyone please get off their dramallama's for a moment.

    A couple of points.

    1. The thread was removed because it was being used to coordinate a bunch of messing on a different forum, ironically to attack another big-thread in another forum.

    With respect Dev,this is not what the forum was being used for.


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    #60
    Killme00
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Killme00


    DeVore wrote: »
    1. The thread was removed because it was being used to coordinate a bunch of messing on a different forum, ironically to attack another big-thread in another forum.

    How is that ironic?


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    #61
    Ste05
    Registered Users Posts: 7,537 ✭✭✭Ste05


    As much as it hurts, I'm resigning as a Poker mod too... I want to write more about my decision, but for now I'll just say it's not an easy decision, but I really don't see an alternative at this stage.


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