Ric Flair WILL CONTAIN RAW SPOILERS

Tricity Bendix · 03-06-2009 10:44PM

ShawnRaven wrote: »

The 80s AWA/NWA era? Probably the most famous part of his career overall? A few youtube matches won't bring you the storylines that made people HATE Flair & The Horsemen, and in turn elevated them to top heel status.

Ok, so I wasn't around to see him week in and week out, but I think at this stage I've seen more than half of his greatest matches. Or, at least enough of his stuff to have a fair idea about what he did down through the years. Its because I did see him when I was a wee chap that makes me not want to see him now. I remember when he was a big deal. I remember when he brought his title with him to the WWF. I think he is a shadow of his former self, not just in the ring but on the mic. I found it painful to watch him limp through that retirement angle. The only decent match during that phase was the one against Michaels. I dont think I'm being out of order when I say that there is nothing he can bring to the table now that I haven't already seen, and as such he won't entertain me.

ShawnRaven · 03-06-2009 10:48PM

Now THAT! That's an answer i can buy for a buck.

And i'd agree with you too. However the fact remains that Ric Flair still draws by his name alone. If he's there, people will show.

Smart business really.

Machismo Fan · 03-06-2009 10:49PM

As controversial as this may be, I've never really liked Flair. He's a great talker but I've always thought most of his matches were a little anti-climatic.

flahavaj · 03-06-2009 10:52PM

Machismo Fan wrote: »

As controversial as this may be, I've never really liked Flair. He's a great talker but I've always thought most of his matches were a little anti-climatic.

Please expand.

Machismo Fan · 03-06-2009 10:55PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Please expand.

It's just they never really seemed to build to a big finish like you'd expect. Even in his trilogy with Steamboat. It might just be me.

flahavaj · 03-06-2009 11:09PM

Machismo Fan wrote: »

It's just they never really seemed to build to a big finish like you'd expect. Even in his trilogy with Steamboat. It might just be me.

Compared to whom?

Machismo Fan · 03-06-2009 11:13PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Compared to whom?

The likes of Michaels, HHH (I know slightly different era) or even Hogan.

flahavaj · 03-06-2009 11:19PM

Machismo Fan wrote: »

The likes of Michaels, HHH (I know slightly different era) or even Hogan.

I can honestly say thats something I've never noticed. But each to their own.:D

ShawnRaven · 03-06-2009 11:19PM

Machismo Fan wrote: »

The likes of Michaels, HHH (I know slightly different era) or even Hogan.

Hogan with a big ending? Hogan's match endings were exactly the same! You knew who was going to win before the match began.

Hogan was a selfish sh*t who put nobody over during the golden age, Flair on the other hand, made a career of helping prepare the next batch of stars for the next step. And having awesome matches with them while they were at it.

Flair got Steamboat on a main event plain, he also got Sting and Lex Luger at main event level too. All in a two year period between 1988-1990. All of that was more than Hogan put over in his entire second run with WWE between 1984-1992!

Machismo Fan · 03-06-2009 11:54PM

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Hogan with a big ending? Hogan's match endings were exactly the same! You knew who was going to win before the match began.

But I think he built to that finish like very few others.

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 12:05AM

Machismo Fan wrote: »

But I think he built to that finish like very few others.

Wasn't much of a build there with 3 punches and a big boot. Test did the same before a pump handle slam, but that wasn't a buildup.

Savage's elbow had a build up, Bret's sharpshooter had a buildup, Shawn's superkick had a buildup. But Hogan?

I don't see where you're coming from there. I really don't. Also buildup for a finisher isn't a requirement. That was one of the beauty things of DDP's Diamond Cutter, the fact that it can be put on anywhere and at any time. And Flair's leglock was the same, it just went on whenever he got the opportunity to put it on, and the crowd went batsh*t for it every time.

Tricity Bendix · 04-06-2009 12:10AM

From the moment Hogan started shaking his head he was building up for the finisher. The crowd would go nuts for the whole sequence.

Whatever about the figure four, I don't think you can take from the excitment Hogan could drum up for the leg drop.

Machismo Fan · 04-06-2009 12:11AM

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Wasn't much of a build there with 3 punches and a big boot.

I meant the entire match, not just his finisher. I just never thought Flair could build his matches to a fever pitch which, in my opinion, main events should do.

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 12:19AM

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

Whatever about the figure four, I don't think you can take from the excitment Hogan could drum up for the leg drop.

Problem was, people eventually got sick of the seizure prior to the punches, boot and leglock, and if you don't believe me, listen to the cheers when Hogan gets eliminated from the 1992 Rumble, and the boos Hogan gets when he pulls Sid out.

Personal preference is one thing, but people were bored stiff of Hogan by the time 1992 rolled around, that excitement wasn't always there. Hogan/Flair did house show main events in December 91 and Jan 92 as a test run for Mania, and people were walking before the match had finished. By the time the last few matches took place in Boston and MSG, Vince knew it wasn't going to sway the interest at the time and changed the whole thing around. If you can find Hogan/Flair matches from MSG and Boston from 24/7, i'd advise you to watch.

WWE did miss the boat with those two, but they needed to put Flair against Hogan immediately, but instead they put Flair v Piper in his debut feud while Hogan feuded with Undertaker in a program that went nowhere.

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 12:20AM

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I meant the entire match, not just his finisher. I just never thought Flair could build his matches to a fever pitch which, in my opinion, main events should do.

Have you seen Flair/Funk? Flair/Sting (any match but the last Nitro one)?, even as recent as Flair/HHH?

flahavaj · 04-06-2009 12:30AM

Hell, Flair /Foley had an amazing finish and that was Flair a couple of decades after his prime!

Caretaker · 04-06-2009 01:17AM

i read that flair threatened vince that if he didnt let him come back to WWE he wud join TNA? if thats true ive lsot all repsect for Naitch.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Tricity Bendix · 04-06-2009 01:21AM

Caretaker wrote: »

i read that flair threatened vince that if he didnt let him come back to WWE he wud join TNA? if thats true ive lsot all repsect for Naitch.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Not sure I believe that, but why would it bother you?

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 08:52AM

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

Not sure I believe that, but why would it bother you?

You might be a while waiting on a response. Guy got sitebanned after 3 posts.

AlphaMale 3OO · 04-06-2009 09:16AM

Shawn I have to admire your tenacity in defending Flair but his returning is a disgrace. By the time of his "retirement", Flair had outstayed his welcome for in excess of a decade and after the most elaborate and drawn out wrestler retirement in the history of pro wrestling, he pissess all over his legacy one last time, presumably to make sure it is dead and buried for good this time. Anyone who argues that most wrestlers come out retirement either way, fails to acknowledge the fact that most wrestlers do not get the send off Flair got - and it wasn't scripted because I was in the stadium with 74,000 other people and there was real genuine emotion and acknowledegement that this was our last sighting in the ring of a legend. I include myself in that.

Now he's returned and he looks laughable, he has no physique to speak of and he's an embarassment to wrestling fans. No wonder we get laughed at for following this phony sport whose one real moment of genuine heartfelt drama came as a result of the fake retirement of it's greatest ever worker. Business or not, WWE and Flair have cheated the fans.

D.Q · 04-06-2009 09:30AM

It doesnt even make sense business wise in my opinion Shawn.

WWE are meant to be aiming at a younger audience now? But its only really older people who will truly remember Flair when he was great. Maybe its a way of appeasing that sector of the audience, with weak handouts of nostalgia, but Im not buying it. Its inconsistent on WWEs behalf in alot of ways.

Its actually offending people across the board. On one hand you have the people who care about Flair, and have seen his greatest Matches etc, who are offended after seeing his "genuine" retirement last year be spat in their face.

On the other hand you have people who dont particularly care about him, and havent seen his greatest matches/him in his prime. All we see is a weak old man making an already stagnant main event scene worse.

Now Im aware that I am displaying ignorance in that I havent gone and looked at his matches. But I dont think I should have to research someone that WWE are trying to push.

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 09:30AM

Flair never had that much of a physique anyway, let's be honest here. But this isn't a conversation you and I haven't had before at all.

But people really need to get over the coming out of retirement hump. Most people knew that was over once he started working for ROH and that it was only going to be a matter of time before he'd be back in the ring.

As for cheating the fans? Bullsh*t, you watch the amount of people who will turn up to see him come back in the ring again... just watch. For those who are outraged by this, there'll be more who'll pay to see him.

Machismo Fan · 04-06-2009 09:54AM

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Have you seen Flair/Funk? Flair/Sting (any match but the last Nitro one)?

Flair/Funk has been on my to watch list for quite some time but I have seen some Flair/Sting and while I'll admit it was an improvement drama wise (I'm talking his 45 minute draw from '88), it's still not what I would have expected from a main event match (and I rate Sting very highly). I agree that Hogan was near worthless as a face going into the early '90's but in the eighties no man could work a crowd up to a frenzy as well as he could.

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 09:58AM

DieselQueen wrote: »

WWE are meant to be aiming at a younger audience now? But its only really older people who will truly remember Flair when he was great. Maybe its a way of appeasing that sector of the audience, with weak handouts of nostalgia, but Im not buying it. Its inconsistent on WWEs behalf in alot of ways.

Hold on, do you seriously think Orton and his recent programs are targeted for a younger audience?

Seriously?

Think about that one for a second...

Its actually offending people across the board. On one hand you have the people who care about Flair, and have seen his greatest Matches etc, who are offended after seeing his "genuine" retirement last year be spat in their face.

It's a WORKED environment! It was an impressive "send off", but can you honestly say this surprises you? People need to stop comparing it to the retirement of a boxer or a footballer and try to remember that IT IS NOT REAL!

On the other hand you have people who dont particularly care about him, and havent seen his greatest matches/him in his prime. All we see is a weak old man making an already stagnant main event scene worse.

AKA the ones who think they have a genuine right to be pissed off about the whole thing when they haven't even seen a third of his work except what WWE want them to see with their DVD releases and a few crappy quality youtube matches with no buildup.

Now Im aware that I am displaying ignorance in that I havent gone and looked at his matches. But I dont think I should have to research someone that WWE are trying to push.

No, that's a fair point. I didn't give a rats ass about Flair in 1991 when he first came over because i hadn't seen his WCW work prior. Unfortunately i wasn't the only one which is another reason why i don't think his house show program with Hogan was such a huge success. Because as big as a name as he was, a lot of the WWE audience (who back then was still very kiddie orientated too) saw little of him too. It was only after his match with Savage at Mania in 1992 which is why i got a hold of prior footage.

But yeah, i agree, we shouldn't have to research anyone WWE are trying to push, whch is why i don't give a f*ck about Evan Bourne or Jack Swagger, or CM Punk. :P

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 10:01AM

Machismo Fan wrote: »

Flair/Funk has been on my to watch list for quite some time but I have seen some Flair/Sting and while I'll admit it was an improvement drama wise (I'm talking his 45 minute draw from '88), it's still not what I would have expected from a main event match (and I rate Sting very highly). I agree that Hogan was near worthless as a face going into the early '90's but in the eighties no man could work a crowd up to a frenzy as well as he could.

You also have to remember, the NWA and the WWE were two different beasts. The NWA concentrated on pure wrestling while WWE concentrated on the showbiz end of it. So if you have a preference towards one, you're going to have a slight difficulty understanding or accepting the other. I know I did when I was 13 when i saw NWA stuff for the first time in a dimly lit arena with announcers with zero charisma (sorry, but Ross in 1988 was boring compared to Jesse Ventura).

It's stuff i love now and would watch it over anything WWE shoves down my throat today though.

grames_bond · 04-06-2009 10:57AM

ShawnRaven wrote: »

....try to remember that IT IS NOT REAL!

It's still real to me damnit!! :mad:

(sorry i couldnt help it!

)

D-FENS · 04-06-2009 11:34AM

I don’t have a problem with Flair going back on his word, as SR says, it’s almost in a wrestler’s DNA profile to do so in relation to retirement (Hell, I was over the moon was Hot Rod did it in ’89, although granted he was a younger man than Flair at the time). And although it does disrespect HBK slightly, and even makes HHH & others look a bit foolish for spearheading that send off, no fan would have thought any less of the Warrior’s win at WM7 on Savage that “retired” him only for Savage to return to the ring afterwards. Yes, I know that was completed scripted and Savage always intended on returning, but from the viewpoint of the storyline, it’s the same thing and doesn’t diminish HBK in any way.
I just feel sorry for Flair tbh, whether he’s coming back for financial reasons or doesn’t know what to do with himself in normal society, it’s really a sad state of affairs because I don’t think he’s needed and I’d actually question just how strong his drawing power is these days in the current generation of the WWE “Universe”, I guess time and ratings will tell that tale if he does don the tights again. Maybe they should have used him as JBL’s desperate employee rather than Shawn, certainly would have had more realism to it. But actually now that I think of it, he’s in such a pitiful state at the moment, he would have just reminded me of “Two Cents” Volkoff, and I’ve spent a long time trying to forget that one…

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 11:53AM

D-FENS wrote: »

I don’t have a problem with Flair going back on his word, as SR says, it’s almost in a wrestler’s DNA profile to do so in relation to retirement (Hell, I was over the moon was Hot Rod did it in ’89, although granted he was a younger man than Flair at the time). And although it does disrespect HBK slightly, and even makes HHH & others look a bit foolish for spearheading that send off, no fan would have thought any less of the Warrior’s win at WM7 on Savage that “retired” him only for Savage to return to the ring afterwards. Yes, I know that was completed scripted and Savage always intended on returning, but from the viewpoint of the storyline, it’s the same thing and doesn’t diminish HBK in any way.

I couldn't agree more here. And Warrior really could have capitalised on that too had he not held Vince up for money five months later.

I just feel sorry for Flair tbh, whether he’s coming back for financial reasons or doesn’t know what to do with himself in normal society, it’s really a sad state of affairs because I don’t think he’s needed and I’d actually question just how strong his drawing power is these days in the current generation of the WWE “Universe”, I guess time and ratings will tell that tale if he does don the tights again. Maybe they should have used him as JBL’s desperate employee rather than Shawn, certainly would have had more realism to it. But actually now that I think of it, he’s in such a pitiful state at the moment, he would have just reminded me of “Two Cents” Volkoff, and I’ve spent a long time trying to forget that one…

Flair's life was completely different a year ago, I think he did plan on settling down, but then the divorce was filed and he was left with too much free time on his hands. And Flair usually steps it up in street fight atmosphere matches too, his match with Vince at the 2002 Royal Rumble is a testament to that.

I'm gonna at least wait for the match to happen first before i start crapping on Flair anyway.

AlphaMale 3OO · 04-06-2009 04:45PM

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Flair never had that much of a physique anyway, let's be honest here. But this isn't a conversation you and I haven't had before at all.

You're misunderstanding me. He looks decrepid. He looks like he couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag and it's taking from the realism of his matches and the credibility of his opponants. He looks every bit his 60 years and who knows, he may be even older but has concealed it over the years. I don't even know who won the match because I've switched off WWE through sheer frustration, but to have him be competitive with Orton is an insult to Orton and the fans intelligence.

ShawnRaven wrote: »

But people really need to get over the coming out of retirement hump. Most people knew that was over once he started working for ROH and that it was only going to be a matter of time before he'd be back in the ring.

As for cheating the fans? Bullsh*t, you watch the amount of people who will turn up to see him come back in the ring again... just watch. For those who are outraged by this, there'll be more who'll pay to see him.

I know from past experience, if you have an opinion, no amount of valid reasoning (sorry!) can sway you so we'll agree to disagree on this one but Flair was past it years ago. And just so you know, I'm actually a Flair fan, I loved his heel persona and have both his DVDs, but enough is enough.

ShawnRaven · 04-06-2009 05:00PM

AlphaMale 3OO wrote: »

You're misunderstanding me. He looks decrepid. He looks like he couldn't fight his way out of a wet paper bag and it's taking from the realism of his matches and the credibility of his opponants. He looks every bit his 60 years and who knows, he may be even older but has concealed it over the years. I don't even know who won the match because I've switched off WWE through sheer frustration, but to have him be competitive with Orton is and insult to Orton and the fans intelligence.

It makes perfect sense given their past together with Evolution, who Flair would have served as a mentor & guide to Orton. Forget how he looks, or how long he's been in the ring or if he looks if he can take Orton. WWE have been storyline based for years, and that's it. And this is coming from someone who shares your frustration with the WWE product.

I know from past experience, if you have an opinion, no amount of valid reasoning (sorry!) can sway you so we'll agree to disagree on this one but Flair was past it years ago. And just so you know, I'm actually a Flair fan, I loved his heel persona and have both his DVDs, but enough is enough.

I see what you did there. :P
I'm not digging my heels in, trying to sway anyone else, or trying to be swayed. But the fact of the matter is, the two have a history, it makes sense to have them work together, regardless of how Flair might look, and regardless of anyone's opinion. It will draw fans to the arena on PPV night, and people will still watch it, despite their bitching and outrage.

And Vince knows it, which is exactly why it's taking place.

Ric Flair *WILL CONTAIN RAW SPOILERS*

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Ric Flair WILL CONTAIN RAW SPOILERS