Ric Flair *WILL CONTAIN RAW SPOILERS*

ShawnRaven

Decided to give this it's own thread, seeing as over the course of the last few weeks, people have been, um.. let's just say not impressed with the fact that Flair has been slowly making his way through the ropes.

OK it's Flair coming out of retirement once in WWE, are you that surprised?. Let's not get too hasty.

How many times has Terry Funk retired? That guy has come out of retirements more times than Tyson.

Guys, it's a TV show at the end of the day. I didn't hear anyone give out when he did the few other retirement angles in 95 and 99, but hey, it was Dubya See Dubya so it didn't count. Right?

Anyway, i figured this would be a good place to get some healthy rant and debate out.

Bubs101

Flair's retirement was different. It's the equivalent of Favre coming out of retirement last year, bigger perhaps

chopperbyrne

He didn't have a six month long send off storyline and entry in the Hall of Fame in WCW either.

This one was supposed to be different.

Machismo Fan

To me, it's not just that he's retired but rather the way the he was retired. He had a standout match at last years WrestleMania and then got the ultimate sendoff that no other wrestler has gotten to that extent on the Raw the night after and he's just going back on all that.

CommieBaz

What mainly ticks me off is how his statements went from "absolutely done with in-ring activity" to "I miss it so much, but I'm sticking to my word" to "only if Shawn could give me his blessing" to "look out anywhere-thats-not-the-US, here I come!".

Plus, I'm not exactly a close follower of ROH, but didn't he pretty much walk out on them to take this semi-active role in WWE? After they made him their "Ambassador"?

/rant

Bounty Hunter

I still dont think he will have another official in ring match in the WWE, but i just wish he was happy in a non active fighting role, manage, GM whatever just please stop fighting old man, dont tarnish one of the best wrestling careers there ever will be.

ShawnRaven

But this isn't Flair's first retirement, which is kinda my point. He's been "retired" before.
It's the first time he retired and got a major send off for it.

Or is it THAT which is the annoying itch that nobody can seem to scratch?
I thought people would have enjoyed seeing someone to stick it to Vinny Mac!

Jolt2007

The thing that's bugging me most is his promos attacking Randy for cheating to retain his title and calling him a coward. I mean of all people to do that!

I wouldn't mind him coming back too much if he still had it but it almost seems like to me that he's senile and crashing the show each week and they let him just to humour him. It all disturbs me slightly for some reason.

ShawnRaven

Jolt2007 wrote: »

The thing that's bugging me most is his promos attacking Randy for cheating to retain his title and calling him a coward. I mean of all people to do that!

The even more disturbing thing there, is the amount of times Flair cheated in the 80s and 90s to defend his title, including low blow ballshots and other horsemen interfering right in front of the referee too!

But hey, wrestling fans have goldfish memories, right?

Shaneomac

I see know reason why Ric cant just be a manager. The guy could really help the right wrestler get over like he did with Batista when he first came to Raw. I could see him being like Harley Race in WCW in the 90s. I thought he was a great manager at what he did.

ShawnRaven

Shaneomac wrote: »

I see know reason why Ric cant just be a manager. The guy could really help the right wrestler get over like he did with Batista when he first came to Raw.

That would have limited lasting power though. I remember literally wishing death on Ric Flair between 2003-2005 for the amount of wins he gave HHH due to interference. It was the same sh*t every match, and i'm sure I can't be the only one who thought that. I had pretty much given up on Flair until the end of 2005 when i saw the program he had with HHH that year.

I could see him being like Harley Race in WCW in the 90s. I thought he was a great manager at what he did.

I actually thought Race looked tragic as a manager, just looked so out of place. Of course, at that time, I knew no better, only that he was the former king of the WWE. I never got the whole "evil genius" managers that NWA/WCW tried to push. I was always more for the snidey, interfering ones like Heenan, Hart and Slick and Jim Cornetteused to be.

That's just my own personal preference. The likes of Heyman and Race were far ahead of their time though, unfortunately the wrestling world was not ready for them from 88-92.

grames_bond

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I actually thought Race looked tragic as a manager, just looked so out of place. Of course, at that time, I knew no better, only that he was the former king of the WWE. I never got the whole "evil genius" managers that NWA/WCW tried to push. I was always more for the snidey, interfering ones like Heenan, Hart and Slick and Jim Cornette used to be.

i really think flair could take on the bobby the brain persona brilliantly, i mean bobbys promos where what got some of the superstars over in a big way, and it would help the younger stars....AND we wouldnt have to see him activley in the ring again! its win win win!

ShawnRaven

I honestly don't think Flair and Heenan are on the same level, Flair has Heenan's quickness, but he doesn't have his wit.

grames_bond

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I honestly don't think Flair and Heenan are on the same level, Flair has Heenan's quickness, but he doesn't have his wit.

yeah but in the current wwe i dont think that will be an issue do you!?

ShawnRaven

grames_bond wrote: »

yeah but in the current wwe i dont think that will be an issue do you!?

In current WWE, managers don't mean jack sh*t, which in turn, would make Flair even more redundant.

grames_bond

ShawnRaven wrote: »

In current WWE, managers don't mean jack sh*t, which in turn, would make Flair even more redundant.

oooh yeah thats a very good point.....although they could use it as the turnaround.....oh wait its wwe, thats never gonna happen!

Rjd2

Machismo Fan wrote: »

To me, it's not just that he's retired but rather the way the he was retired. He had a standout match at last years WrestleMania and then got the ultimate sendoff that no other wrestler has gotten to that extent on the Raw the night after and he's just going back on all that.

True, but the nature boy needs the money to keep the ladies happy;)
I think Vince started using him because he knew that Batista vs Orton was boring as hell, and in the hope that Flair could bring some life to this incredibly dull feud. He got kicked in the head so I assume he will be out for a while selling the injuries. Once Hunter comes back, it will be Hunter v Orton and Flair will not be needed, so those who expect him to be wrestling weekly will have to move on.
It does prove though if he starts wrestling again, that Chris Jericho as usual was right to call him a hypocrite though.

ShawnRaven

How 'bout 'dat? I actually agree with Rjd2!
I think i need my medication upped...

flahavaj

The guy owes his ex-wives thousands of dollars. He stands the best chance of making the most money working matches for WWE. Good luck to the fella I say. Why would anyone in this day and age give a flying f*ck about a wrestling retirement not being adhered to? This is wrestling, no one ever retires for good, Flair is no different.

ShawnRaven

flahavaj wrote: »

The guy owes his ex-wives thousands of dollars. He stands the best chance of making the most money working matches for WWE. Good luck to the fella I say. Why would anyone in this day and age give a flying f*ck about a wrestling retirement not being adhered to? This is wrestling, no one ever retires for good, Flair is no different.

Gotta agree here, the only way you really retire from the business usually requires a dark hole that's about six foot deep and a lot of dirt. It's just a case of voluntary or involuntary, and i took heat for this comment before but i'll reiterate it, when you go into the business, knowing the pressure to get bigger and having to go on the road for silly amounts of time, it's all voluntary. Nobody chooses to die, but you do choose your lifestyle.

Sorry guys, didn't mean to go off on a tangent there.

EdK

Flair is the Ram!!

If flair was sticking in the business for his "love" of wrestling I don't think there would be any arguments from anyone, but truth is he's an old man who's made millions of dollars lived outside his means for a ****ing wrestling gimmick, he's never given himself any financial security and now has to whore himself out to the highest bidder because it's his only means of making a buck

What I want to know is why did they run the big retirement angle if neither the WWE or Flair were ready for it?

He walked out on them last year because he thought he could make more money on his own when he figured out there are only so many autographs you can sign so he came crawling back to WWE, if I was in charge I would have told him where to go, Fact is Flair doesn't live for wrestling he lives for money and he can't afford to ever retire from the business

Flair never had any time for fans either unless he was infront of a camera so I reckon it's killed him to sign autographs and take pictures with all wrestling fan types for the last year

I thought this wrestling retirement might be different maybe because it seemed the most real, but it turns out Ric needs the business alot more than it needs him these days

Ric Flair will turn out like that "glorified stuntman" in the end

ShawnRaven

It's not a case of Flair living for the money, but the guy just did not invest his money wisely over the years, and he knows this now. Marrying women nearly half his age only for them to divorce him and take half his estate doesn't help his case.

Unfortunate set of circumstances, but he brought them all on himself.

CommieBaz

Not to mention his Tax problems.....he's gonna be collecting paychecks to pay off the IRS for a long while to come. I believe thats why he started up his finance company....which went belly up quickly, too.

Degag

Rjd2 wrote: »

.
It does prove though if he starts wrestling again, that Chris Jericho as usual was right to call him a hypocrite though.

And to set up a Jericho Flair fued after he's done with Batista and Orton:)

flahavaj wrote: »

The guy owes his ex-wives thousands of dollars. He stands the best chance of making the most money working matches for WWE. Good luck to the fella I say. Why would anyone in this day and age give a flying f*ck about a wrestling retirement not being adhered to? This is wrestling, no one ever retires for good, Flair is no different.

To be fair, with that sort of opinion why should anyone give a crap abut wrestling in general? I know where you are coming from. But alot of people feel cheated by this angle. I'm sure some wrestlers do too because during his "retirement" on RAW the night after Mania, some of them were visiably in tears. Flairs retirement angle was supposed to be different but it appears that it wasn't.

EdK wrote: »

if I was in charge I would have told him where to go, Fact is Flair doesn't live for wrestling he lives for money and he can't afford to ever retire from the business

Flair never had any time for fans either unless he was infront of a camera so I reckon it's killed him to sign autographs and take pictures with all wrestling fan types for the last year

But you're not in charge and if Vince see's that he can make a buck out of something he'll jump at it and he wont remember that RAW after Mania last year, thats for sure. Thinking about it, Vince is probably just as bad as Flair in this situation.

dsmythy

Is he out of retirement or did they just use him to fuel the Batista-Orton feud? After all, he had a street fight and was punted presumably to be gone for weeks if he returns at all.

If he is back they could do their own take on "The Wrestler" movie with him.

D.Q

to be honest, I just f*cking HATE Ric Flair.

Only been watching wrestling sonce about...99-00. So I dont have any bias towards what he was.

What I do see is:

A very old man, who turns a frankly dangerous shade of purple if he opens his mouth.

I have no time for his promos, genuinely hate when he opens his mouth, he sounds like a lunatic. Just strange shouting, "PUNK PUNK PUNK".

I think he is FAR too old, and doesnt look good enough to be even allowed to SNIFF around the main event scene. I know his name is such, that anything else is impossible but still.

Basically my point is, his time has come, in fact it came last year, and even that was a bit late for my liking.

Tricity Bendix

OK, while I have enough respect for the industry not to claim to ****ing hate one of it's all-time stars, I do kind of agree with the above.

I don't care too much about some scripted storyline send off that isn't being honoured. I just don't want to see Flair anymore. He looks frail and old. And I've seen everything he has to offer.

EdK

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

OK, while I have enough respect for the industry not to claim to ****ing hate one of it's all-time stars, I do kind of agree with the above.

I don't care too much about some scripted storyline send off that isn't being honoured. I just don't want to see Flair anymore. He looks frail and old. And I've seen everything he has to offer.

Are you one of his former wives?

ShawnRaven

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

He looks frail and old. And I've seen everything he has to offer.

I'd place a safe bet that you haven't even seen a good half of his greatest matches, other than what WWE want you to see.

Tricity Bendix

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I'd place a safe bet that you haven't even seen a good half of his greatest matches, other than what WWE want you to see.

Don't know what you mean about what the WWE want me to see. I've watched wrestling since the early 90s, and I watched both WWF and WCW. I've also seen NWA matches over the Internet. What part of his career am I missing?

ShawnRaven

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

Don't know what you mean about what the WWE want me to see. I've watched wrestling since the early 90s, and I watched both WWF and WCW. I've also seen NWA matches over the Internet. What part of his career am I missing?

The 80s AWA/NWA era? Probably the most famous part of his career overall? A few youtube matches won't bring you the storylines that made people HATE Flair & The Horsemen, and in turn elevated them to top heel status.

Tricity Bendix

ShawnRaven wrote: »

The 80s AWA/NWA era? Probably the most famous part of his career overall? A few youtube matches won't bring you the storylines that made people HATE Flair & The Horsemen, and in turn elevated them to top heel status.

Ok, so I wasn't around to see him week in and week out, but I think at this stage I've seen more than half of his greatest matches. Or, at least enough of his stuff to have a fair idea about what he did down through the years. Its because I did see him when I was a wee chap that makes me not want to see him now. I remember when he was a big deal. I remember when he brought his title with him to the WWF. I think he is a shadow of his former self, not just in the ring but on the mic. I found it painful to watch him limp through that retirement angle. The only decent match during that phase was the one against Michaels. I dont think I'm being out of order when I say that there is nothing he can bring to the table now that I haven't already seen, and as such he won't entertain me.

ShawnRaven

Now THAT! That's an answer i can buy for a buck.
And i'd agree with you too. However the fact remains that Ric Flair still draws by his name alone. If he's there, people will show.

Smart business really.

Machismo Fan

As controversial as this may be, I've never really liked Flair. He's a great talker but I've always thought most of his matches were a little anti-climatic.

flahavaj

Machismo Fan wrote: »

As controversial as this may be, I've never really liked Flair. He's a great talker but I've always thought most of his matches were a little anti-climatic.

Please expand.

Machismo Fan

flahavaj wrote: »

Please expand.

It's just they never really seemed to build to a big finish like you'd expect. Even in his trilogy with Steamboat. It might just be me.

flahavaj

Machismo Fan wrote: »

It's just they never really seemed to build to a big finish like you'd expect. Even in his trilogy with Steamboat. It might just be me.

Compared to whom?

Machismo Fan

flahavaj wrote: »

Compared to whom?

The likes of Michaels, HHH (I know slightly different era) or even Hogan.

flahavaj

Machismo Fan wrote: »

The likes of Michaels, HHH (I know slightly different era) or even Hogan.

I can honestly say thats something I've never noticed. But each to their own.:D

ShawnRaven

Machismo Fan wrote: »

The likes of Michaels, HHH (I know slightly different era) or even Hogan.

Hogan with a big ending? Hogan's match endings were exactly the same! You knew who was going to win before the match began.

Hogan was a selfish sh*t who put nobody over during the golden age, Flair on the other hand, made a career of helping prepare the next batch of stars for the next step. And having awesome matches with them while they were at it.

Flair got Steamboat on a main event plain, he also got Sting and Lex Luger at main event level too. All in a two year period between 1988-1990. All of that was more than Hogan put over in his entire second run with WWE between 1984-1992!

Machismo Fan

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Hogan with a big ending? Hogan's match endings were exactly the same! You knew who was going to win before the match began.

But I think he built to that finish like very few others.

ShawnRaven

Machismo Fan wrote: »

But I think he built to that finish like very few others.

Wasn't much of a build there with 3 punches and a big boot. Test did the same before a pump handle slam, but that wasn't a buildup.

Savage's elbow had a build up, Bret's sharpshooter had a buildup, Shawn's superkick had a buildup. But Hogan?

I don't see where you're coming from there. I really don't. Also buildup for a finisher isn't a requirement. That was one of the beauty things of DDP's Diamond Cutter, the fact that it can be put on anywhere and at any time. And Flair's leglock was the same, it just went on whenever he got the opportunity to put it on, and the crowd went batsh*t for it every time.

Tricity Bendix

From the moment Hogan started shaking his head he was building up for the finisher. The crowd would go nuts for the whole sequence.

Whatever about the figure four, I don't think you can take from the excitment Hogan could drum up for the leg drop.

Machismo Fan

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Wasn't much of a build there with 3 punches and a big boot.

I meant the entire match, not just his finisher. I just never thought Flair could build his matches to a fever pitch which, in my opinion, main events should do.

ShawnRaven

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

Whatever about the figure four, I don't think you can take from the excitment Hogan could drum up for the leg drop.

Problem was, people eventually got sick of the seizure prior to the punches, boot and leglock, and if you don't believe me, listen to the cheers when Hogan gets eliminated from the 1992 Rumble, and the boos Hogan gets when he pulls Sid out.

Personal preference is one thing, but people were bored stiff of Hogan by the time 1992 rolled around, that excitement wasn't always there. Hogan/Flair did house show main events in December 91 and Jan 92 as a test run for Mania, and people were walking before the match had finished. By the time the last few matches took place in Boston and MSG, Vince knew it wasn't going to sway the interest at the time and changed the whole thing around. If you can find Hogan/Flair matches from MSG and Boston from 24/7, i'd advise you to watch.

WWE did miss the boat with those two, but they needed to put Flair against Hogan immediately, but instead they put Flair v Piper in his debut feud while Hogan feuded with Undertaker in a program that went nowhere.

ShawnRaven

Machismo Fan wrote: »

I meant the entire match, not just his finisher. I just never thought Flair could build his matches to a fever pitch which, in my opinion, main events should do.

Have you seen Flair/Funk? Flair/Sting (any match but the last Nitro one)?, even as recent as Flair/HHH?

flahavaj

Hell, Flair /Foley had an amazing finish and that was Flair a couple of decades after his prime!

Caretaker

i read that flair threatened vince that if he didnt let him come back to WWE he wud join TNA? if thats true ive lsot all repsect for Naitch.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Tricity Bendix

Caretaker wrote: »

i read that flair threatened vince that if he didnt let him come back to WWE he wud join TNA? if thats true ive lsot all repsect for Naitch.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Not sure I believe that, but why would it bother you?

ShawnRaven

Tricity Bendix wrote: »

Not sure I believe that, but why would it bother you?

You might be a while waiting on a response. Guy got sitebanned after 3 posts.

AlphaMale 3OO

Shawn I have to admire your tenacity in defending Flair but his returning is a disgrace. By the time of his "retirement", Flair had outstayed his welcome for in excess of a decade and after the most elaborate and drawn out wrestler retirement in the history of pro wrestling, he pissess all over his legacy one last time, presumably to make sure it is dead and buried for good this time. Anyone who argues that most wrestlers come out retirement either way, fails to acknowledge the fact that most wrestlers do not get the send off Flair got - and it wasn't scripted because I was in the stadium with 74,000 other people and there was real genuine emotion and acknowledegement that this was our last sighting in the ring of a legend. I include myself in that.

Now he's returned and he looks laughable, he has no physique to speak of and he's an embarassment to wrestling fans. No wonder we get laughed at for following this phony sport whose one real moment of genuine heartfelt drama came as a result of the fake retirement of it's greatest ever worker. Business or not, WWE and Flair have cheated the fans.