Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

TequilaMockingBird · 27-05-2009 09:22PM

Jakkass wrote: »

You are making idle assumptions about all priests and all nuns in Ireland, I would like you to substantiate your reasoning..

I would like you to explain why the nuns and priests who were not carrying out abuse towards these children - did not and have not spoken out about it.

Jakkass wrote: »

I consider it absolutely ridiculous to assume that all priests and all nuns were involved in this yes. I find it as ridiculous to assume that all Germans participated in Nazi activity during the 1930s and the 1940's..

I'll keep out of the Nazi part of it thanks.

As for the rest of your comment, my question above applies.

Jakkass wrote: »

It's ridiculous yes. I'm not even a Roman Catholic and I never have been so you can regard my views as an outsider to the Catholic Church.

I dunno, sounds like you'd fit right in. Far right much?

philologos · 27-05-2009 09:34PM

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

I would like you to explain why the nuns and priests who were not carrying out abuse towards these children - did not and have not spoken out about it.

You will find priests in the Roman Catholic Church who have spoken about about abuses in the past and who have condemned them. Actually I think the Church has condemned it several times. Most recently by the Archbishop of Dublin who has himself condemned it several times:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16114
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090525/ap_on_re_eu/eu_ireland_catholic_abuse_3

The Pope in 2006 specifically referring to Ireland:
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-10017002.html

Priest slams abuse deal:
http://www.carlow-nationalist.ie/tabId/511/itemId/2985/Ovation-for-priest-who-slams-sex-abuse-deal.aspx

Bishops tell orders to pay more over abuse:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0526/1224247405119.html?via=mr

Now, you're clearly talking nonsense if you are saying that there hasn't been condemnation now and in the past by Catholic bishops and priests when revelations have come to light. So yes, I'm going to call you out when you say that all priests and nuns were involved and supported this because it's wrong, plain wrong.

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

I dunno, sounds like you'd fit right in. Far right much?

I don't think I'm extreme in any respect. I think points of views like yours are actually more unreasonable and extreme. I'm not going to jump on the anti-Catholic bandwagon, but rather I will give criticism where it is truly due to the priests who perpetrated these acts and to anyone who facilitated them, and they and they alone should be the ones receiving jailtime over this but the State unfortunately gave indemnity.

I disagree with Catholic theology, so I'm not likely to be joining the Church any time soon, but I won't be giving undue criticism to anyone without researching it more.

TequilaMockingBird · 27-05-2009 09:37PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity without the Bible? Is that even possible? This teaching of no sex before marriage is a part of genuine and uncorrupted Christianity. It's no doubt an unpopular teaching, but it's one that I would advocate and encoruage. This has been taught since the first teachers of the Gospel in Europe and in Asia Minor, and infact it was taught by the Jewish prophets before Jesus came on the scene.

I apologise, as I said I don't read your posts due to your sig - tbh honest I find that type of religious fervour irritating. But, I have just read the post above from earlier today, and I now realise that I would consider your opinions completely barking and I should not have entered into a discussion with you.

philologos · 27-05-2009 09:46PM

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

I apologise, as I said I don't read your posts due to your sig - tbh honest I find that type of religious fervour irritating.

I would see that as more your issue more than mine. To live in a peaceable society tolerating people for believing different things to you is a positive aspect of mature life.

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

But, I have just read the post above from earlier today, and I now realise that I would consider your opinions completely barking and I should not have entered into a discussion with you.

Yes, because it's barking to refuse to criticise people unfairly, and to view the situation from a more objective view than most would? As I say I'm an outsider on the issue, I see what the orders did in those industrial schools as outright appalling and sickening, but I appreciate the efforts that Archbishop Diarmuid Martin and others are doing to genuinely renew the church and to sort out the issue as effectively as possible.

The bishops when they met in Maynooth last week or this week insisted that the religious orders pay more to provide for the victims. They have since refused.

I oppose both the orders who are being so stubborn, and I oppose the State for not insisting a renegotiation. I don't however feel the need to insist hatred towards those who are Catholics, or their church.

lickarse2 · 27-05-2009 10:06PM

galwayrush wrote: »

I doubt if it's on line yet, looks like quite a large report.

It'll be a big download; 5000 pages or thereabouts

Biggins · 27-05-2009 10:48PM

lickarse2 wrote: »

It'll be a big download; 5000 pages or thereabouts

Total full report in PDF format is 111 mb in size.
Downloaded it myself.

Terrifying, shocking read. Awful stuff done that you'd expect from scum from the worst of torture chambers of the world.
Really evil episodes.

CICA-VOL3-08 PDF - Section 8 - subsection 10:

Many witnesses described the overwhelming nature of the childcare
task, including eight witnesses who described having to assist toddlers with rectal prolapse.
I distinctly remember the babies would be on potties for a long time and sometimes the
older children would lift them up and with a cloth push this thing ...(rectal prolapse).... I
didn’t know what was going on at the time.

Some young children were TIED to the potties so long that the internals actually fell out and others had the job of shoving it all back in.

What the fcuk day and age are we living in that we are letting these still alive scumbags that brought about this, away with it???
SERIOUSLY!

Some never saw food for days!

A small number of witnesses stated that they were so hungry that they helped themselves to food provided for the
babies, replacing milk with water in the babies’ bottles.

...and just in case the inspectors turned up!

Section 8:50

In the period prior to 1970 toilet paper and toiletries such as soap and toothbrushes were
provided for the duration of inspections in most Schools:
We were told to be on our best behaviour, we were all lined up, I’d be dying to say
something but knew I would get into trouble. The floors were polished, new towels and
bars of soap would be put out, but you couldn’t touch them. When they left everything
was put back.
In addition to the physical preparations, 62 witnesses reported being coached and warned about
how to behave and what to say to the inspectors’ and that staff were present for the duration of
the inspection. ‘We were all done afraid to blink an eye, we were schooled in what to say,
you knew you’d get punished.’

towel401 · 27-05-2009 11:01PM

I am not bothered by this at all and don't think the church should have to pay anything. stop dredging up the past and move on

towel401 · 27-05-2009 11:01PM

Biggins wrote: »

Total full report in PDF format is 111 mb in size.
Downloaded it myself.

Terrifying, shocking read. Awful stuff done that you'd expect from scum from the worst of torture chambers of the world.
Really evil episodes.

how long did it take you to read?

Biggins · 27-05-2009 11:14PM

towel401 wrote: »

how long did it take you to read?

I have not read it all yet - on purpose.
There is only some much I can read and stomach per day while trying to control my absolute seething anger!

Wibbs · 27-05-2009 11:32PM

Its an awful situation. Truly awful. These people should get compensation, but TBH why the hell am I and everyone else going to pay for it? Why the hell am I and everyone else going to pay a red cent for a previous governments suck on the church teat? Lets not forget the church got paid to look after these children, in good faith or not. Well enough paid too. Half the average industrial wage a year IIRC.

They should foot the bill entirely. If I pay a babysitter to look after a kid and they break stuf in the house and injure my kid, who do I hit for compensation? The neighbours? Enough is fúcking enough. Cop on people, we're not the ones with Raphaels and Titians on the marbled walls in headquarters and the silk robes and the numerous banks and the billions locked up in property and investments while the poor of the world, their own Catholic poor, starve in ditches all over that world. I say again fúck that.

What is the truth in all this? I look to a maybe strange source for some. Machiavelli and his take on effectual truth. The truth as put forward by the church is that they are the conduit for the person they claim as their God and their reason to be. The effectual truth is that for the vast majority of it's history it has been a purely political/economic force. End of. Oh sure a great many of it's genuine adherents were and are looking to a higher truth for themselves. All good, but as I say look at the reality.

We have bailed out the banks and likely made our grandkids broke on the back of it. If they think I'll pay to bail out an institution that has already gotten enough from this state and it's people, I say again they can fúck right off(IMHO a fair amount of the proposed property tax will be píssed away on this).

This is not a religious thing anymore, but trust me they will make it one, to protect and cover their own rotten arses. Let's see it for what it is and treat it for what it is. Personally if they didn't cover the entire cost of the reparations to these victims, yes I would freeze and sell off their assets. Sadly too few would have the stomach for it, which makes me even sadder.

The comparison to the oul Nazis is an interesting one. Like those involved in the Nazi lark, people knew this was going on and were (naturally) afraid to speak out, or too ignorant to dare question. The pain of these times is written in many hands and not just the hands that abused. They knew or turned a blind eye, lay and clergy, yet it went on and continued until remarkably recently. Most of those are now dead, but the organisation and it's well oiled mechanism that protected them and did so until incredibly recently is still there and they should pay.

To those devout Catholics, I say my best wishes to you and long may you find comfort in your faith and do the good works that you do, but you don't need an invented hierarchy, especially a top down endemically corrupt one, a corrupt one based on power and control, that has ignored the cries of its children for too long to profess your faith. The very person you worship didn't have to and indeed fought against such things, so why should you and why should you pay now or feel guilty for the sins of the past? It was their past, their organisation, their denial, their head turning and they should damn well pay every cent for it. If you don't make them pay and pay hard, then you may end up makings someone elses child pay for it in the future.

End rant.

deadhead13 · 27-05-2009 11:33PM

Stephen wrote: »
Anyone with a blog or a facebook page or whatever should repost this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

Here's the embed code:
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9jHqndf9Kx4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9jHqndf9Kx4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Don't let the bastards bury this or forget about it.

towel401 wrote: »

I am not bothered by this at all and don't think the church should have to pay anything. stop dredging up the past and move on

I'm sure Micheal O'Brien would like to forget the past and "move on " - but he can't.

mloc · 27-05-2009 11:42PM

towel401 wrote: »

I am not bothered by this at all and don't think the church should have to pay anything. stop dredging up the past and move on

Are you

a) Trolling

b) Afflicted with a mental disability and unable to understand the situation

c) A fanatical religious apologetic

d) Painfully ignorant of the importance of the situation and for some reason self-obfuscating the depth and severity of the implications this has for Ireland?

I'm curious. Sort of.

tommyboy2222 · 27-05-2009 11:46PM

This has been common knowledge for years.

Biggins · 28-05-2009 12:12AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Its an awful situation.... etc

Well said. Thank you.

the_dark_side · 28-05-2009 12:18AM

Oh Lord wont you send me a Mercedes Benz.... and a time machine and an AK47 while your at it

WindSock · 28-05-2009 09:53AM

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

Yes they are guilty.

Unfortunately it is not so easy to ignore authority when your brain is telling you otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk

Wibbs · 28-05-2009 10:00AM

True then again I was always very very dubious of "authority". Dunno why, but the second I feel it's pressure I willfully push back.

TequilaMockingBird · 28-05-2009 10:20AM

WindSock wrote: »

Unfortunately it is not so easy to ignore authority when your brain is telling you otherwise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcvSNg0HZwk

Do you not think that the people involved in that test, given say... thirty years to think about it, might feel a little ashamed of how they acted?

Morlar · 28-05-2009 10:29AM

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

Do you not think that the people involved in that test, given say... thirty years to think about it, might feel a little ashamed of how they acted?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-makes-plea-to-witnesses-of-institutional-child-abuse-412642.html

28/05/2009 - 10:53:28
Justice Minister Dermot Ahern today urged anybody who witnessed institutional child sex abuse to come forward with evidence that could help secure criminal prosecutions.

Victims and those who have any information on the catalogue of sexual, physical and emotional brutality dealt out to thousands of children for decades at so-called industrial and reformatory schools should contact the Gardaí, he insisted.

Mr Ahern, speaking after President Mary McAleese called for the criminal prosecution of the perpetrators detailed in last week’s Ryan report, said the help of witnesses could be critical to charges being brought.

“I would urge as many people as possible to co-operate in helping convict perpetrators who have yet to face justice to come forward,” he said.

“I know it is very difficult for them but the Gardaí are there to help and build evidence for future prosecutions.

“There are some who witnessed evil being done and who may have vital information to offer. Their help even at this late stage could prove pivotal in grounding future prosecutions.”

Mr Ahern said the abuse crimes, mainly carried out by members of religious orders who ran schools for the state, are so enormous that they can’t be swept under the carpet.

“I fully agree with what President McAleese said in relation to those responsible facing justice,” he said.

“As a nation we must try and come to terms with it but from a legal point of view there are procedures and there’s a court system.”

Mr Ahern briefed the Cabinet this week about ongoing investigations into institutional child abuse and what successful prosecutions have already taken place.

In a number of cases prosecutions were not possible because the perpetrators were dead.

But despite the fact that many surviving perpetrators are now elderly, Mr Ahern insisted there is no statue of limitations on such criminal offences.

“We are not precluded from opening criminal investigations that stretch back in time,” he said.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-makes-plea-to-witnesses-of-institutional-child-abuse-412642.html#ixzz0GnP5TgGx&B

WindSock · 28-05-2009 12:16PM

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

Do you not think that the people involved in that test, given say... thirty years to think about it, might feel a little ashamed of how they acted?

Yes, definately. Even the people in the experiment showed remorse when they found out it was all acted. I posted that experiment to show that it is not so easy for many to disobey authority at the time something is happening.

Nodin · 28-05-2009 12:49PM

TequilaMockingBird wrote: »

Do you not think that the people involved in that test, given say... thirty years to think about it, might feel a little ashamed of how they acted?

The ones who were cowed, yes. The ones doing the cowing may be a different story.

Mind you, theres no guarantee it couldn't happen again. Certainly theres been scandals involving other Religons along the same lines...Quite recently Orthodox Jews in New York, for instance.

Morlar · 28-05-2009 01:07PM

Nodin wrote: »

Certainly theres been scandals involving other Religons along the same lines...Quite recently Orthodox Jews in New York, for instance.

There was also at the Tara one (Protestant- Kincora boys home Belfast).

El Siglo · 28-05-2009 01:20PM

towel401 wrote: »

I am not bothered by this at all and don't think the church should have to pay anything. stop dredging up the past and move on

What is your problem? Are you sick or something, I tell you what, you might feel a little different about the situation if it was you or some one in your family who was being raped, buggered, beaten and god knows what else. Get off this thread, it's people like you that allow these bastards to run around abusing children. Don't even try to retort I don't want to hear rubbish from some idiot who has neither the knowledge nor experience of child abuse and you're not worth getting banned over, you cretin.
This kind of thing sickens me so it does, it really vexes me, this person is the exact kind of person who harbours these paedo bastards, and prevents them from being prosecuted, and that's from personal experience of dealing with scum who abuse children.
"Stop dredging up the past", f*ck off and die!

Morlar · 28-05-2009 01:26PM

El Siglo wrote: »

What is your problem? Are you sick or something, I tell you what, you might feel a little different about the situation if it was you or some one in your family who was being raped, buggered, beaten and god knows what else. Get off this thread, it's people like you that allow these bastards to run around abusing children. Don't even try to retort I don't want to hear rubbish from some idiot who has neither the knowledge nor experience of child abuse and you're not worth getting banned over, you cretin.
This kind of thing sickens me so it does, it really vexes me, this person is the exact kind of person who harbours these paedo bastards, and prevents them from being prosecuted, and that's from personal experience of dealing with scum who abuse children.
"Stop dredging up the past", f*ck off and die!

Not everyone will be in agreement on how this issue should be handled (or whether anything should be done at all) and you dont really get to say who can post in this thread by telling them to '**** off and die' if you dont agree with them. ((& yes I think that guy was way wrong.))

Actually I take that all back - I just read one of that guys other posts so fire away !!

javaboy · 28-05-2009 01:49PM

El Siglo banned for personal abuse. towel401 if you're trolling stop. If you're not think very carefully about how you frame your comments in such a sensitive thread.

Please PM me if you have any comments/queries about this ban.

gazzer · 28-05-2009 01:58PM

Has anybody been listening to Joe Duffy today? Some of the stories of abuse are horrific. I feel ill after listening to what those animals did to those poor kids

Drummerboy2 · 28-05-2009 02:30PM

I too was listening to Joe Duffy. Horrific. Like I said in a previous thread, I think their money and lands should be confiscated and they should be a proscribed organisation.

carlybabe1 · 28-05-2009 03:22PM

Did anybody see Song for a raggy boy?? Good jesus I cried the whole way through it and then for a week after seeing it, cause only at the end did it say it was based on a true story. I couldnt belive that another human could be so horrendous to a young boy, it made me truly sad

Dyr · 28-05-2009 03:36PM

carlybabe1 wrote: »

Did anybody see Song for a raggy boy?? Good jesus I cried the whole way through it and then for a week after seeing it, cause only at the end did it say it was based on a true story. I couldnt belive that another human could be so horrendous to a young boy, it made me truly sad

you do realise that "based on a true story" actually means "total and utter bull****"???

carlybabe1 · 28-05-2009 05:28PM

Bambi wrote: »

you do realise that "based on a true story" actually means "total and utter bull****"???

Well cause I dont work in the movie business I wouldnt know about that in general, however in this case it was in reference to the murder of the boy, for legal reasons they had to say that so they couldnt be sued.

Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

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