Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Institutional abuse was "endemic".. - MERGED

Options
1…910121415…17

Comments

  • Options
    #332
    ball ox
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ball ox


    The Catholic Church should pay every penny, GTFO and close the door behind them. I would then welcome them back into the country in a couple of years to start again from scratch. Although, since the country is a lot more eduacted now than it was when they first arrived I would imagine they would end up on Abbey St. with the Scientologists.


  • Options
    #333
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    Other than those who brutalised and tortured children - who should be prosecuted and jailed - it's not a question of individuals.

    It's a question of the institution of the Catholic Church. Not just in Ireland either; the cover-up went right up to the Vatican.

    The orders should be forced to pay, obviously. Anyone who was involved in the cover-up should be named and prosecuted and jailed.

    But the entire power system of the Church colluded in the cover-up. As an institution, it is morally destroyed.


  • Options
    #334
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    After watching in disbelief, the clip on questions and answers where Noel Dempsey if floored by a member of the audience's account of when he was raped by the Christian Brothers,
    http://blather.net/zeitgeist/archives/2009/05/irish_sex_abuse_scandal_video.html

    I have 2 questions... and Im not sure if they will ever be answered...

    1. Was there an underground network of sexual deviants, molesters and abusers in Ireland, who spread the word that there was an organisation called the Christian Brothers you could join to gain access to hundreds of defenceless children? And you could practically do what you liked with them, and the church and the state would protect you.

    2. Why the hell arent these animals answering for their shocking crimes now? And HOW are people still going to mass?

    I just cant imagine the fear in those poor children


  • Options
    #335
    Soby
    Registered Users Posts: 5,977 ✭✭✭Soby


    Thread on this


  • Options
    #336
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    The Roman Catholic Church found the perfect formula for "evil". Part of the formula: take men, remove marriage, remove women from any decision making, create a global hierarchy controlled by a state within a state (thus immune from any law).

    Begin by annihilating millions of competing "heathens," aka European women, and practice that age old creed: kill one and the world weeps, kill millions and it barely notices.

    And make sure to insist there is only one way to salvation...their way. Add immense guilt, bordering itself on child abuse, to assure compliance.

    Convert by force, subject governments to influence of the papacy. Infuse police forces, unions, and any other social mechanisms with your followers.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #337
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    the_dark_side wrote: »
    After watching in disbelief, the clip on questions and answers where Noel Dempsey if floored by a member of the audience's account of when he was raped by the Christian Brothers,
    http://blather.net/zeitgeist/archives/2009/05/irish_sex_abuse_scandal_video.html

    I have 2 questions... and Im not sure if they will ever be answered...

    1. Was there an underground network of sexual deviants, molesters and abusers in Ireland, who spread the word that there was an organisation called the Christian Brothers you could join to gain access to hundreds of defenceless children? And you could practically do what you liked with them, and the church and the state would protect you.

    2. Why the hell arent these animals answering for their shocking crimes now? And HOW are people still going to mass?

    I just cant imagine the fear in those poor children

    Because not every priest and religious leader is a child abuser? Seriously the media makes anyone believe anything. Lets say Ireland has 2000 priests(I dont know how many there are) and 100 are child abusers, does this mean they all should be tarred by the same brush?

    These animals and yes they are animals should be treated as criminals of a secular nature, they abused their position of trust and have absolutely NO hint of christianity in them.

    Blame the person, not the religion.


  • Options
    #338
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    the_dark_side wrote: »
    The Roman Catholic Church found the perfect formula for "evil". Part of the formula: take men, remove marriage, remove women from any decision making, create a global hierarchy controlled by a state within a state (thus immune from any law).

    Begin by annihilating millions of competing "heathens," aka European women, and practice that age old creed: kill one and the world weeps, kill millions and it barely notices.

    And make sure to insist there is only one way to salvation...their way. Add immense guilt, bordering itself on child abuse, to assure compliance.

    Convert by force, subject governments to influence of the papacy. Infuse police forces, unions, and any other social mechanisms with your followers.

    SSSSSSSSSSSSCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMM


    Lets not get carried away here. . .. .


  • Options
    #339
    TheZohanS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,582 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Because not every priest and religious leader is a child abuser? Seriously the media makes anyone believe anything. Lets say Ireland has 2000 priests(I dont know how many there are) and 100 are child abusers, does this mean they all should be tarred by the same brush?

    These animals and yes they are animals should be treated as criminals of a secular nature, they abused their position of trust and have absolutely NO hint of christianity in them.

    Blame the person, not the religion.

    For a man with only one shoe you make a lot of sense. :)


  • Options
    #340
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    The State's Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse has failed to name the abusers in the institutions of the State. There is a deafening lack of demand that this situation be rectified. Everyone is quite rightly slagging the Orders and saying that they must pay.

    But really more than this has to happen to even begin to approach making a reparation for all this suffering and misery. The perpetrators must be brought through the courts and State must disentangle itself from the RC Church.

    The people who did this horror are still in charge of over 90% of Irish schools. People should be demanding some justice from our TD's, not just because the whole world is looking at us and judging us, but because it's the only right course of action.


  • Options
    #341
    Robbo
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,560 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    The Christian Brothers just need a snazzy new logo and an esoteric namechange.

    Something like Intersalvation or fraternisCorp would do the trick.

    I'm sure there's thousands of unemployed marketing wonks who would jump at the chance to reform them now that they can't sell any more "exclusive developments in advancement of modern urban living".


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #342
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    The people who did this horror are still in charge of over 90% of Irish schools.

    If you mean the actual perpetrators I doubt it
    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    People should be demanding some justice from our TD's, not just because the whole world is looking at us and judging us, but because it's the only right course of action.

    Who gives a **** what the 'whole world' thinks - that is irrelevant - we dont need their approval. For our OWN benefit I would like to see every one of those rapists tracked down and put in prison for a very long time.

    I would also like to know why the likes of RTE, Irish Times and the major long standing media in Ireland failed to report this down through the years. They must have known. Also the Guards - there must have been countless allegations made down through the years, complaints which were shuffled under the carpet. I think it would be good to know that nothing like this could ever happen again and that those directly and indirectly responsible are made to answer for themselves.

    I can see this damaging Fianna Fail more than most other issues at the moment and rightly so. They should never have negotiated that deal in the first place. Also they were the primary party in power throughout the duration of this scandal. They did not have the people of Ireland in mind when they negotiated that deal they did it it was in order to facilitate a handful of religious orders and is a disgrace.


  • Options
    #343
    Aidric
    Registered Users Posts: 13,589 ✭✭✭✭Aidric


    Robbo wrote: »
    I'm sure there's thousands of unemployed marketing wonks who would jump at the chance to reform them now that they can't sell any more "exclusive developments in advancement of modern urban living".
    Well actually....The Christian Brothers may have to sell off their remaining assets so the marketers may be selling off developments after all. I'd like to see what slogan they might come up with to sell off former centres of rampant child abuse.


  • Options
    #344
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Because not every priest and religious leader is a child abuser? Seriously the media makes anyone believe anything. Lets say Ireland has 2000 priests(I dont know how many there are) and 100 are child abusers, does this mean they all should be tarred by the same brush?

    No, but the reaction of the churches/orders as a whole seems to be to cover up + cover their own backsides and be damned if they'll hand over a penny. They don't have to be guilty of the act itself to still be very much at fault and in the wrong.


  • Options
    #345
    PeakOutput
    Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    the_dark_side wrote: »
    1. Was there an underground network of sexual deviants, molesters and abusers in Ireland, who spread the word that there was an organisation called the Christian Brothers you could join to gain access to hundreds of defenceless children? And you could practically do what you liked with them, and the church and the state would protect you.

    to an extent probably and it was more than just the christian brothers your own clip is not about the christian brothers as far as i know
    2. Why the hell arent these animals answering for their shocking crimes now? And HOW are people still going to mass?

    they are not answering because people are hiding their identities and the church has been given a certain amount of indemnity

    im an atheist, and therefore dont go to mass, but even i can see that the church is not the same as it was then it still needs masses of reform but these are organisations who work for the church they are not the church themselves

    half the problem is our laws allow them to get away with stuff no other group could

    there are hundreds of threads and articles on the net on this subject in the last few weeks do a bit of reading as you dont seem to know alot about it


  • Options
    #346
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    bluewolf wrote: »
    No, but the reaction of the churches/orders as a whole seems to be to cover up + cover their own backsides and be damned if they'll hand over a penny. They don't have to be guilty of the act itself to still be very much at fault and in the wrong.

    Ok, this cover-up was organised in the past by corrupted people not adhering to the basic views of the organisation they are in.

    Who is at fault here? The organisation or its corrupt leadership?


  • Options
    #347
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Ok, this cover-up was organised in the past by corrupted people not adhering to the basic views of the organisation they are in.

    Who is at fault here? The organisation or its corrupt leadership?

    It's not even that, it's one maybe two people at most speaking out and the majority of the church in the media seems to be "getting legal advice" and hurling solicitors and barristers at the abuse victims, etc.
    It's just an organisation - I'm sure if they wanted to speak out about how their own order should be paying more they could... for an issue as grave as this, anyway.


  • Options
    #348
    ball ox
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ball ox


    partyatmygaff wrote: »

    Who is at fault here? The organisation or its corrupt leadership?

    The leaders of any organisation controll & represent it. Both the Organisation & its leaders are at fault.


  • Options
    #349
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    ball ox wrote: »
    The leaders of any organisation controll & represent it. Both the Organisation & its leaders are at fault.
    They control it, thats fine ok.

    The basis of this organisation (I.e. Biblical teaching) does not endorse but it prohibits this type of abuse. The leaders changed it and corrupted it, the organisation itself has more than likely a majority of good people in it and in any large organisation there are the corrupt and evil.


  • Options
    #350
    ball ox
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭ball ox


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    They control it, thats fine ok.

    The basis of this organisation (I.e. Biblical teaching) does not endorse but it prohibits this type of abuse. The leaders changed it and corrupted it, the organisation itself has more than likely a majority of good people in it and in any large organisation there are the corrupt and evil.

    I'm sure the majority of Catholics are good but thats not the point. The catholic church, its Pope and it's leaders must be accountable for what goes on within the Organizsation they are running. Without them the Organisation would not exist. Theyare one and the same thing.


  • Options
    #351
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    The basis of this organisation (I.e. Biblical teaching) does not endorse but it prohibits this type of abuse. The leaders changed it and corrupted it, the organisation itself has more than likely a majority of good people in it and in any large organisation there are the corrupt and evil.

    A lot of people will not want to hear this though. People want to find an excuse to promote an anti-religion agenda and I must say, they have a pretty good excuse. All believers will be able to do is show people the real Jesus, not the Jesus that has been twisted and battered by the minority who abused these children.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #352
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    mloc wrote: »
    Is a guard at Auschwitz innocent just because he didn't personally put the gas in the chamber or torture the prisoners? No. By empowering the church and through complacency or otherwise, any member of the church who was aware of the abuse and yet remained a part of it is guilty.
    I think that's terribly unfair. Of course such a guard isn't guilty. How do you propose he would have got out of there? One man against the might of the Third Reich? Be realistic. Ditto those who weren't abusers but remained working in these institutions - firstly there were those who tried to alert the authorities to what was happening but they weren't listened to, secondly there were those who chose to stay to do their best to protect the children... even just saying a few kind words to them, whatever they could.
    It's ironic how people are so quick to condemn every member of the clergy while at the same time acknowledging the state was happy to prop up the church's regime. So let's face it - attempts to dismantle what was going on in these monstrous places from the inside... would have been futile.
    And there were members of the laeity who were also abusers - should all those who were state-employed care workers at the time be blanketly condemned?
    The abusers were guilty, the church powers that be who turned a blind eye/covered things up... were guilty, the top/middle state bureaucrats were guilty... the genuinely christian members of the clergy/state employees who went to work in these organisations to make a difference/were forced into the clergy only to find themselves in the middle of such horror... were not guilty.


  • Options
    #353
    Ann22
    Registered Users Posts: 8,004 ✭✭✭Ann22


    What about the Jersey care home? I don't think it was run by a religious order. I wonder were there many places across the world that weren't run by the church that had a lot of abuse cases? Was this sort of stuff going on in many places, not only church run institutions? Remember the film Sleepers, it was meant to've been loosely based on a true story. That place was called the Wilksinson's home for boys (though I doubt that was the real name of the place), the priest in that was the good guy.


  • Options
    #354
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    Morlar wrote: »
    Lets not get carried away here. . .. .

    Ok... I did get a bit carried away... I'll edit it


  • Options
    #355
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    the_dark_side wrote: »
    The Roman Catholic Church found the perfect formula for "evil". Part of the formula: take men, remove marriage, remove women from any decision making, create a global hierarchy controlled by a state within a state (thus immune from any law).

    Begin by annihilating millions of competing "heathens," aka European women, and practice that age old creed: kill one and the world weeps, kill millions and it barely notices.

    And make sure to insist there is only one way to salvation...their way. Add immense guilt, bordering itself on child abuse, to assure compliance.

    Convert by force, subject governments to influence of the papacy. Infuse police forces, unions, and any other social mechanisms with your followers.

    Newly edited post, re-posted

    Anyone have any thoughts on this statement by the way?


  • Options
    #356
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    They control it, thats fine ok.

    The basis of this organisation (I.e. Biblical teaching) does not endorse but it prohibits this type of abuse. The leaders changed it and corrupted it, the organisation itself has more than likely a majority of good people in it and in any large organisation there are the corrupt and evil.

    What better way to protest the leaders than to stop going to mass for a while (which involves throwing money at the leaders) then?


  • Options
    #357
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Ann22 wrote: »
    What about the Jersey care home?
    /shudder
    :(


  • Options
    #358
    the_dark_side
    Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    when loyalty is placed as the highest moral good, then anything can be done in its name... The trouble the church is that it insists on unthinking, uncritical subservience..... blind loyalty

    "There is the story of the politician who accused a follower of never being loyal. The follower was nonplussed. 'But I always support you when I think you're right,' he said. 'Anyone can do that,' said the politician. 'I want people who support me when I'm wrong.'"


  • Options
    #359
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    * Try to imagine an organisation that staffs itself knowingly with people accused of rape, abusers, staff that has no sympathy for the public its supposed to be serving.
    * Try to imagine an organisation that smuggles its numbers around the country and out of it, in order to cover-up the few publicly reported cases of their vile actions.
    * Imagine an organisation that when caught knowing of such abuses, tries and in some cases successfully does hide the facts, names and further details from the legal authorities.
    * Imagine an organisation that is found responsible for decades of the above and when held to account basically says "here is a miserable few quid, now go away and let the taxpayers of the country pay for our crimes".
    * Imagine an organisation that literally has billions of Euro in money, stock (shares), other investments, property, art works, gold and valuables such as jewellery and other building and personal adornments. Then think of that organisation saying to the government and the people it further abused saying "we sinned, we know it, we know you know it but by god, we are not going to pay for our actions. What is more we will continue to stall, non-report firstly any other mis-deeds to the Gardi but instead keep the reports in-house"

    ...now finally imagine such an organisation existing 18 different times, in different forms within our borders.

    ...and they still think they can get away with it!!!

    I am absolutely disgusted, astounded, enraged with anger that such scumbags can treat us, the rest of the country with such vile contempt.
    Not only did such organisations treat for generations, the people of Ireland extremely badly hidden behind closed doors, they continue with their pig-headed effrontery and adopted self-righteousness to think they are better than the rest of us!

    If these 18 organisations were listed as criminal organisations previously, they would now be further banned completely under the eyes of the law for their latest exposed actions.
    I can't see much of a difference right now to be honest!


  • Options
    #360
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Biggins wrote: »
    ...and they still think they can get away with it!
    ... but they can. And there are people who will STILL support this organisation.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #361
    TequilaMockingBird
    Registered Users Posts: 4,392 ✭✭✭TequilaMockingBird


    Dudess wrote: »
    Indeed. It's one thing to have been unable to be heard while the system was in place... but not coming forward in the last 20 years, as you say, when the church's power diminished so dramatically? Pretty unforgivable really...
    Dudess wrote: »
    I think that's terribly unfair. Of course such a guard isn't guilty. How do you propose he would have got out of there? One man against the might of the Third Reich? Be realistic. Ditto those who weren't abusers but remained working in these institutions - firstly there were those who tried to alert the authorities to what was happening but they weren't listened to, secondly there were those who chose to stay to do their best to protect the children... even just saying a few kind words to them, whatever they could.
    It's ironic how people are so quick to condemn every member of the clergy while at the same time acknowledging the state was happy to prop up the church's regime. So let's face it - attempts to dismantle what was going on in these monstrous places from the inside... would have been futile.
    And there were members of the laeity who were also abusers - should all those who were state-employed care workers at the time be blanketly condemned?
    The abusers were guilty, the church powers that be who turned a blind eye/covered things up... were guilty, the top/middle state bureaucrats were guilty... the genuinely christian members of the clergy/state employees who went to work in these organisations to make a difference/were forced into the clergy only to find themselves in the middle of such horror... were not guilty.


    Yes they are guilty.


Advertisement