Boxrec All-Time P4P

cowzerp · 15-05-2009 03:00PM

My all time list is ever changing as i dont like to get tied down to 1!
depends how im feeling and who is on my mind, i believe there could be loads of debateable top 10's with loads of differences..

1. Ali, The Greatest
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. George Foreman
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Manny pacquio
8. Chavez
9. Tommy Hearns
10. Roberto Duran

Now thats a solid top 10, Mayweather might replace Duran! we'll see..

mikethemouth · 15-05-2009 03:19PM

walshb wrote: »

My top ten all time p4p.

Ali....At peak and weighing 15 stone and being able to move and hit faster
than most welters or lightweight and with a steel chin, amazing stamina and courage and supreme mental strength who fought in the toughest era
of heavyweight fighting. It's a no brainer for me

Robbie. Outside of the heavies, he was the most complete all around fighter
I have ever seen. He had power and speed and inside and outside ability and an amzing chin; he fought many HOF fighters

Ray Leonard, all that Robbie had just a tad less. Supreme boxer/fighter
with a killer instinct and amazing speed and finishing ability. Career was amazing but short of Robbies.

Duran. What a menace and another all around great who showed his
genius by moving up to beat the great Ray. Would PBF or Whitaker or Chavez have been able to move to 147 lbs and beat a Ray Leonard. No way.

Eder Jofre. An amazing all around 118 lb fighter. Serious, see clips of this
guy who had such perfect punching technique and a great chin and stamina.
Boxed and bat the boxers and outslugged the sluggers.

Rocky Marciano. Only unbeaten undisputed heavyweight great and gets my nod for reasons
given in previous post. Some may say he fought less than greats. Hey, outside the ring that's easier to say. He beat all that was in his era. Wicked hitter too.

George Foreman. For all he did in BOTH careers. Just think of what he achieved in winning the title back in 1994. IMO, the strongest physical man in boxing history with a helluva chin. Holyfield and other young men couldn't dent
a past it Foreman. Holyfield would not have withstood a 70s Foreman

Holyfield. What a fighter and career and considering he moved up and beat
some bigger and stronger men. He had such mental strength and was a beautiful combo hitter and so strong and tough.

Joe Louis. The finest and most beautiful hitter I have ever seen. His shots were so damaging and text book and aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
Hios short punches in bunches were breathtaking. Also, 25 defences, alltime
heavy record. Lot of less than great men, but some great men too.

JCC. He makes it for me. A superb pressure fighter with a chin and power and timing and stamina and footwork. Methodical and precise. Fought so many too and who can forget his destruction of
Haugen and Camacho and Rosario; and Taylor, in the last few seconds of their 1990 bout

Other close mentions include Pea Whitaker and Toney and Bob Foster and Moore and Griffith and Hagler and Sal Sanchez, and Pacman

Mike, your list is similar to mine and Tyson is a good choice who could make mine tomorrow.
See, these lists are so hard to really be definite on and tomorrow you
could take one out and insert a replacement.

Jones is a fantastic athlete and natural specimen, but he lacked the
intangibles that others on my list have. The real chin and heart for a war.
He had little inside ability and was a safety first fighter a lot of the time.
Hey, credit to him for his skill, but his leaping in style with no jab and
very unconventional shots didn't do it for me.

Monzon to me was so so so boring. I now he was damn tough and effective; but his
style was too hard to enjoy and I see Robbie and Jones and Toney beating
him at 160 lbs. Toney was at peak a marvel to watch. He had serious
skills and old school methods. His fight vs Barkley was one of the finest
displays of ring brilliance I have ever seen

some great choices there fella....only one i would disagree with is holyfield ...for me he does not get in top 10 ... a great fighter but as pound for pound in his prime i see a few people capable of beating him....ezzard charles springs to mind ....what a fight that would be at light heavy/cruiserweight !!!!

foreman is a very interesting choice and i can totally see your logic ...he was awesome in his prime .

disagree on monzon...agree about style but god had he some chin ...unbeaten for 81 fights and 13 yrs is unreal...He also beats legends like Rodrigo Valdes (twice), Emile Griffith (twice) and Jose Angel Napoles

for me hes argubaly the greatest middleweight to have lived ..conterversial i know ;-).....was thinking this morning ...imagine this fight ..roy jones jr v monzon at super middle ...omg imagine the technical ability on show !!

jofre and sanchez are also notable choices and easily could be in top 10 for me.

toney is a very interesting one and one i forgot but your right at his prime you would be hard to find a more skilful fighter who boxing brain was unreal.

what about armstrong dude ..surprised you did nt go for him ....

mikethemouth · 15-05-2009 03:27PM

cowzerp wrote: »

My all time list is ever changing as i dont like to get tied down to 1!
depends how im feeling and who is on my mind, i believe there could be loads of debateable top 10's with loads of differences..

1. Ali, The Greatest
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. George Foreman
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Manny pacquio
8. Chavez
9. Tommy Hearns
10. Roberto Duran

Now thats a solid top 10, Mayweather might replace Duran! we'll see..

can t argure with most ur picks mate.... pacquaio for me though is not top 10 yet ...of the current fighters i would even have mayweather further up the food chain with regard to this list.

Tommy Hearns...probably my favorite of all time ... i so wanted to put him in but when you look at it they were far more domineering champs in their prime that deserved to be ahead of him in my opinion. if it was a top 10 on ability the hitman cruises in.

dont agree with ur rankings though mate....ali ahead of robinson , pacquio and holyfields positions as well are well off.

dont get me wrong though this is just my subjective opinion.

cowzerp · 15-05-2009 03:50PM

mikethemouth wrote: »

dont agree with ur rankings though mate....ali ahead of robinson , pacquio and holyfields positions as well are well off.

dont get me wrong though this is just my subjective opinion

This has been done befor and my rankings where probably far differnent each time!

Ali for me is the most important figure in all sports and made sports world wide-in my opinion he's "The Greatest" and fought in the best heavyweight division ever and beat the best-Foreman, Frazier, etc.

Holyfield well off? you could move him up but if you mean down then no way, he was undisputed cruiserweight and the most succesful heavyweight of all time with ali.

Manny is in today and after beating the likes of De la hoya and Hatton easily, Barrera twice, Morales twice, Diaz, marquez to name a few-all Legends and at different weights.. A true great no matter what way you look at him.

But as i said, my lists tend to be straight off my head and could look different day to day.

walshb · 15-05-2009 03:53PM

I see myself and Paul have 7 men the same in our top ten.
Like I said, the list can change and Mike, your inclusion of Armstrong
is a great choice. He had a superb career and was the first real
multiple champ. He is a worthy sub for any top ten list.

There are simply so many greats, but the real few stand out for me, Ali
and Robbie and Leonard and Duran.

Aaron Pryor is another super fighter, but his era was not mazing and a move to 147 lbs sees him lose to either of the great welters like Ray and Hearns and Starling and Curry.

Alexis Arguello is another great multiple eight fighter as are Oscar and Shane and PBF!

walshb · 15-05-2009 04:34PM

Why I admire Toney so much is simple:

He has spanned so many weights and still looked good and was so
hard to beat. Never been ko'd and rarely hurt in over 75 fights.

Put it this way, of all the great fighters between welter and up to LH, Toney is the one I would pick whilst weighing up to 175, as a man who could hold his own and survive against any man in history. I am not saying he beats an Ali or Marciano or Dempsey, but I bet he'd survive and give a good account.
His style was so varied and his chin and defence and ability to make his man miss was special.

Hopkins is another who had that style and ability to move between the weights and be very good.

Jones moved up and beat Ruiz, big deal. I doubt Jones would last long
against Foreman or Ali or Liston had he moved up. I think a Toney would
last the distance

mikethemouth · 15-05-2009 04:36PM

cowzerp wrote: »

Ali for me is the most important figure in all sports and made sports world wide-in my opinion he's "The Greatest" and fought in the best heavyweight division ever and beat the best-Foreman, Frazier, etc..

i think though you have to look at it from a pound for pound point of view....i just think robinson is ahead of ali in this respect...they guy was so good journalists had to come up with the word "pound for pound" to describe him. as regards most important figure in sports ur right.

cowzerp wrote: »

Holyfield well off? you could move him up but if you mean down then no way, he was undisputed cruiserweight and the most succesful heavyweight of all time with ali..

i really dont see your holyfield argument . hes prob the one guy i dont think deserves to be in top 10 ...for me he unified a extremely poor cruiserweight devision at the time (historically a notoriously poor devision ...is that david haye i hear ;-)) ...lost to some very average fighters like moorer, bowe,byrd etc ...at end of day in his prime he is no where near the likes of dempsey,tyson,louis,marciano,foreman and ali for me. in fairness to you, alot of people think the same of holyfield so i am in the minority ... i just think his legacy is over rated.....the guy was a great warrior etc but lacked technical ability,speed and power that the above guys had ..thats for sure.

cowzerp wrote: »

Manny is in today and after beating the likes of De la hoya and Hatton easily, Barrera twice, Morales twice, Diaz, marquez to name a few-all Legends and at different weights.. A true great no matter what way you look at him. ..

i think we need to put mannys achievements in perspective ....first of all let me say i thiink the guy is a true great as well. lets look at his two biggest fights ...were they a true measure of his ability .... De la hoya ...clearly had serious issues cutting weight ...has never really performed on big stage and was an aged fighter in decline no doubt . Regarding hatton ...how legitimate of a challenge was this ...a fighter in decline and most certainly over rated . i still think he needs a few more victories before we put him in with these esteemed guys ...personally i d have mayweather ahead of pacquio as i think hes more gifted but thats a separate argument....

cowzerp wrote: »

But as i said, my lists tend to be straight off my head and could look different day to day..

its so hard i agree

mikethemouth · 15-05-2009 04:49PM

walshb wrote: »

I see myself and Paul have 7 men the same in our top ten.
Like I said, the list can change and Mike, your inclusion of Armstrong
is a great choice. He had a superb career and was the first real
multiple champ. He is a worthy sub for any top ten list.

There are simply so many greats, but the real few stand out for me, Ali
and Robbie and Leonard and Duran.

Aaron Pryor is another super fighter, but his era was not mazing and a move to 147 lbs sees him lose to either of the great welters like Ray and Hearns and Starling and Curry.

Alexis Arguello is another great multiple eight fighter as are Oscar and Shane and PBF!

for me armstong is an automatic pick for this list ...i dont think anyone can argue theres been a better welterweight ....

pryor is a great candiadate also but just misses out for me ... definetly on the sub bench. i would also put willie pep on the subs bench

to be honest i think the list is better served with one fighter from the duran/leonard/haggler/hearns era

mikethemouth · 15-05-2009 04:52PM

walshb wrote: »

Why I admire Toney so much is simple:

He has spanned so many weights and still looked good and was so
hard to beat. Never been ko'd and rarely hurt in over 75 fights.

Put it this way, of all the great fighters between welter and up to LH, Toney is the one I would pick whilst weighing up to 175, as a man who could hold his own and survive against any man in history. I am not saying he beats an Ali or Marciano or Dempsey, but I bet he'd survive and give a good account.
His style was so varied and his chin and defence and ability to make his man miss was special.

Hopkins is another who had that style and ability to move between the weights and be very good.

Jones moved up and beat Ruiz, big deal. I doubt Jones would last long
against Foreman or Ali or Liston had he moved up. I think a Toney would
last the distance

in fairness i agree with all your toney points but one has to measure this from the point of view of a fighter been at his peak ..... and at his peak no one touched roy jones jr in the 90s

cowzerp · 15-05-2009 04:53PM

mikethemouth wrote: »

to be honest i think the list is better served with one fighter from the duran/leonard/haggler/hearns era

I understand that but its the reason why there all thought of so highly, it was just so competitive and probably the best era of any division.. and its hard to seperate them all for different reasons, SRL was the main man for me though,,

mikethemouth · 15-05-2009 04:59PM

cowzerp wrote: »

I understand that but its the reason why there all thought of so highly, it was just so competitive and probably the best era of any division.. and its hard to seperate them all for different reasons, SRL was the main man for me though,,

yeh ur right dude ....its near impossile to separate them and completely understand why they are there.... i actually got a headache last night trying to separate them ;-)

colly10 · 16-05-2009 07:48PM

mikethemouth wrote: »

..... and at his peak no one touched roy jones jr in the 90s

+1 - For me RJJ should make top 10 before either mayweather jr or pacman, he was unbelievable -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDWnMXzgeZo

eagle eye · 17-05-2009 12:19AM

I was a huge RJJ fan and he was imo the best pound for pound I'd ever seen in my adult life until Pretty Boy came along. For me its very tight between them but I think Floyd would get my vote.

joepenguin · 17-05-2009 01:23AM

mikethemouth wrote: »

Regarding hatton ...how legitimate of a challenge was this ...a fighter in decline and most certainly over rated

I dont think Hatton is over rated. Majorly hyped / overly hyped maybe, but i dont think anyone over rates any of his attributes.

Pryor for me is one that could have made the list if his career / life didnt go the way it did. I know he beat Hearns in the amatures and Pryor reckons Hearns didnt want anything to do with him as a pro. He surely would have upset a few parties in his time.

If Manny beats Mayweather or Cotto then he definitly sits high on the list. Same if he beats Mosely but Im sure if it happened and Manny won the age thing would come up. Theres nobody on his level at 135 or 140 apart from Marquez.

megadodge · 20-05-2009 09:51PM

Interesting debate which will almost always end up with serious arguments - hopefully not this time !

Boxrec have a computerised system for their rankings. I'm not sure exactly how it works but they're never taken seriously as it's more or less a numbers game and all the intangibles aren't measured.

As more than one poster has mentioned it's almost impossible to come up with the same 10 any time you do it, but here's my current Top 10.

1. Roy Jones Jnr. - astonishingly gifted fighter. Never looked remotely close to losing in his prime and made some great and excellent fighters look like bums. And that was and is still the main problem with people's perception of him. He made his opponents look so ordinary, the lazy analysis was to say "but sure what's he up against" rather than research how good the opponent actually was - up til that point. The other more cynical analysis was (used by only a few to be fair) to suddenly decide after FIFTEEN F*CKING YEARS as a pro that when he's finally past his best and fighting three weights above the one he turned pro at and he eventually gets KO'd - he has no chin !!!! If that was true how did it take FIFTEEN F*CKING YEARS for everyone to notice. It didn't even take 15 fights for Amir Khan's very dodgy chin to be exposed and people say with a serious face that Jones could get away with it for FIFTEEN F*CKING YEARS !!!!

2. Sugar Ray Robinson - beautiful offensive fighter and what a puncher. However I have to say that he certainly got hit a hell of a lot more than I would expect the greatest ever to be. It's fair to say though that that could be simply because he was so offensively minded that he was going to get hit that bit more often than if he danced more. His record in his prime (welter, not middle) is stunning and no right-minded person uses the past-his-prime years against him, unlike my no. 1 on the list.

3. Roberto Duran - amazingly there are still people out there who refer to him as a 'slugger'. What an injustice. He is definitively the best defensive aggressive fighter of all time. His consistent ferociousness often blinded people to his all-round skills. Won his last world title 17 years after his first. Says it all.

4. Sugar Ray Leonard - Despite the fact that every time he fought I wanted him to lose, the man was class. Luckily for him he had tremendous competition around him as his career was quite short, which is why the boxrec ratings have him so low. Unfairly labelled a 'media creation' for much of his career his victories over other all-time greats proved him in most people's eyes.

5. Muammad Ali - Definitely the best heavy ever. Beat such a high level of competition, especially in his 'second' career when past his best that there can be no doubts about his greatness. My reasoning for not having him higher is that IMO heavyweights are p4p the worst fighters, the least disciplined and the least skilled, so on the law of averages heavies don't have to beat as consistently high a quality opponent as the lower weights.

6. Ezzard Charles - people forget this man as a natural MIDDLEWEIGHT who was shamelessly avoided there. He then went to light-heavy where he was shamelessly avoided also as he defeated every great fighter there who didn't hold the title at the time. Went to heavy and won the undisputed title in the awkward period staight after the legendary Joe Louis retired. Was already past his best when he did this, so...

7. Pernell Whitaker - Anybody talking about great defensive fighters who doesn't have him in their top 2 or 3 is a nutcase. Like SRL I couldn't stand him when he was fighting, but he defeated so many excellent fighters at his ease I couldn't ignore his greatness - and this was with no punch worth talking about !!

8. Joe Louis - The most picture perfect textbook puncher I ever saw. Every punch was beautifully delivered. Extraordinary longevity was helped by some very, very ordinary opposition, but IMO he's the second best heavy ever. Chin wasn't the greatest, but he always got up to win, which proved his mental toughness.

9. Archie Moore - Again like Ezzard Charles (who he could never beat) he was a natural middle who was ridiculously avoided. Eventually moved up to light-heavy and only given a shot when in his mid/late 30's and they thought he was past his best. He was, but was still too good and reigned for 8/9 years into his 40's. Still holds the record for the most KO's ever in one career.

10 Jimmy Wilde - I've often said how unimpressed I was when I saw the real old-time boxers. This fella was the outstanding exception. Ruled the flyweights when often weighing up to a stone lighter than his opponent. That's 1/7th of his bodyweight !! He still had a huge KO ratio and from what i've seen of him had outstanding stamina, chin and for a fighter of his time was very skilful.

That's it. Let the arguing begin !

cowzerp · 20-05-2009 09:56PM

Fair play on the analysis and its an interesting top 10-very good.

eagle eye · 20-05-2009 10:08PM

I'd be in agreement with a lot of that top 10 but no sign of Floyd Mayweather jnr is shocking imo. I'd have him ahead of Roy Jones Jnr.

I do think that on balance from all I've read that Sugar Ray Robinson was the best ever.

Edit: Actually whats also shocking in that list is no Marvin Hagler. He has to be up there with Duran and Leonard.

mark renton · 20-05-2009 10:24PM

Ok so I'm not sure but is this unclusive of all boxers, retired and current?

If so I cannot see how PacMan can be omitted from any mans top ten as lb 4 lb surely considers cross weight categories and world titles from 112lb to 140lb and possibly rising!!

PacMan v Klitschko ?? :eek:

walshb · 21-05-2009 12:02PM

"Muammad Ali - Definitely the best heavy ever. Beat such a high level of competition, especially in his 'second' career when past his best that there can be no doubts about his greatness. My reasoning for not having him higher is that IMO heavyweights are p4p the worst fighters, the least disciplined and the least skilled, so on the law of averages heavies don't have to beat as consistently high a quality opponent as the lower weights."

Well, in Clay/Ali's era I think it's okay to assume that he met some major great fighters. It was the toughest era the division has ever seen.

Also, in defence of the big men, they have to meet ANY man, or be prepared
to meet any man on the planet. Take Hags or Leonard or Hearns or Robbie; these guys had to meet men who HAD to make a certain weight, as they did!

Ray as a welter met welters, Hags as a middle met middles. There were
restrictons. There are none at heavyweight and this has to be
considered.

Ali had to meet any man on the planet and met some of the best
fighters ever, over two careers. To watch a peak 15 stone Clay/Ali move faster and hit faster than most fighters in history is worthy of the number
1 choice, not to mention the amazing chin, stamia and courage.

He had it all

Also, p4p pits two guys against each other if weight was not an issue.
I ask anyone who at 185-190 lbs would ave beaten
Marciano?

Rocky was a small heavyweight really. I see
no man in history beating the Rock over 15 whilst
weighing up to 190 lbs.

Dempsey too was a smallish heavyweight. He's just outside
my top ten!

megadodge · 21-05-2009 07:20PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd be in agreement with a lot of that top 10 but no sign of Floyd Mayweather jnr is shocking imo. I'd have him ahead of Roy Jones Jnr.

I do think that on balance from all I've read that Sugar Ray Robinson was the best ever.

Edit: Actually whats also shocking in that list is no Marvin Hagler. He has to be up there with Duran and Leonard.

IMO there is nothing that Mayweather could do that Jones couldn't, whereas the same can't be said the other way round.

My major problem with Mayweather is that while his super-feather career was as good as any in history (excellent competition defeated very decisively) everything above that is decidedly average and to be brutally honest I really think he has avoided quite a few fighters. Above super-feather he was beaten in my mind and many others against Castillo, won the rematch very unimpressively and barely squeaked past a way-past it De La Hoya. He ended up defeating Hatton with an excellent finish, but was so shamelessly aided by the referee while doing a ridiculous ammount of fouling I regard that win as a very tarnished one. If he was so much better, why did it take him 6 rounds to actually try boxing and 10 to finish it ?

That just about sums up Mayweather's career. Three quality fighters since his super-feather days (please don't mention Gatti), none of whom was dominated and no Cotto, Williams, Tszyu, Margarito (all of whom were tougher opponents) - it's not as if he was short of options, but he took none of them.

On the point of the Marvelous One, when I was in school we all had to stand up in front of class and make a prepared speech. Mine was on Hagler! So it's not like I don't like him or anything. I loved the guy, but I always try to be objective when rating fighters and while I feel he was the best middle champ ever (SRR was an outstanding welter, not middle and Monzon would have been outworked) Duran gave him 15 hard rounds when he was really an old fat lightweight. Imagine him at his peak and if they were actually the same natural weight! Irrespective of what you thought of the decision (I disagreed but it was very close) SRL was able to come out of an effective 5 year retirement and match him for much of the fight. Again imagine at their peaks and at the same natural weight. He's close but not in my top 10.

mikethemouth · 22-05-2009 04:52PM

"He ended up defeating Hatton with an excellent finish, but was so shamelessly aided by the referee while doing a ridiculous ammount of fouling I regard that win as a very tarnished one. If he was so much better, why did it take him 6 rounds to actually try boxing and 10 to finish it ? "

disagree massively . this is boxing not soccer. hatton should have had the ability to adapt to the ref 's conditions. mayweather took hatton to school and then finished it in style. i dont think it was in anyway tarnished . a very good performance imo.

Daroxtar · 22-05-2009 05:12PM

Has nobody thought about the greatest "little man" who ever set foot in the ring? As its pound for pound I'd like to mention one of my all time favourite fighters ever who beat everyone that was put in front of him, unified titles at 2 weights and retired undefeated.

Step forward Ricardo Lopez

Edit: , sorry, didnt beat everybody but one draw in 52 is close enough for me

megadodge · 22-05-2009 11:20PM

disagree massively . this is boxing not soccer. hatton should have had the ability to adapt to the ref 's conditions. mayweather took hatton to school and then finished it in style. i dont think it was in anyway tarnished . a very good performance imo.

Well if you think holding on for dear life for 5 1/2 rounds is impressive, you're more easily impressed than me.

Henry Akinwande was disqualified for far less holding against Lennox Lewis a number of years ago, but then again he wasn't a big name American was he ?

megadodge · 22-05-2009 11:38PM

walshb wrote: »

Ray as a welter met welters, Hags as a middle met middles. There were
restrictons. There are none at heavyweight and this has to be
considered.

This is my whole point. They don't have to make the sacrifices that lower weight fighters have to in (often barely) making weight and then having to fight 12 faster paced rounds than the eat-as-much-as-they-want heavies ever fight. I don't think anyone will deny that heavyweights skill levels are the worst of any weight. Way too much emphasis on strength and power, which is one of the reasons why a fast skilful heavy like Ali had such success. The skill level of his opponents wouldn't come close to the skill level that the boys above him on my list faced.

Also, p4p pits two guys against each other if weight was not an issue.
I ask anyone who at 185-190 lbs would ave beaten
Marciano?

Rocky was a small heavyweight really. I see
no man in history beating the Rock over 15 whilst
weighing up to 190 lbs.

Holyfield. And quite clearly too. Taller, faster, stronger, much more skilful, better defence, no worries about his ability to take Rock's big punches. How exactly does Rocky beat him ?

I know we've had this discussion before but Rocky's standard of opposition was below average to say the least. No matter what mood I'm in he'd never come remotely close to my p4p top 10.

eagle eye · 23-05-2009 12:03AM

megadodge wrote: »

I know we've had this discussion before but Rocky's standard of opposition was below average to say the least. No matter what mood I'm in he'd never come remotely close to my p4p top 10.

He beat three guys off your list. But of course now you say they were past it and all of that when he beat them.

Some guys can't win with some people.

The guy was a winner all through his career and got it done against eveybody he ever met. We don't know that Holyfield could have taken Rocky's shots either, the Suzi-Q was a very unique punch.

mikethemouth · 23-05-2009 04:05AM

no chance holyfield takes rocky . not a hope . holyfield is made for marciano.

walshb · 23-05-2009 11:39AM

megadodge wrote: »

This is my whole point. They don't have to make the sacrifices that lower weight fighters have to in (often barely) making weight and then having to fight 12 faster paced rounds than the eat-as-much-as-they-want heavies ever fight. I don't think anyone will deny that heavyweights skill levels are the worst of any weight. Way too much emphasis on strength and power, which is one of the reasons why a fast skilful heavy like Ali had such success. The skill level of his opponents wouldn't come close to the skill level that the boys above him on my list faced.

Holyfield. And quite clearly too. Taller, faster, stronger, much more skilful, better defence, no worries about his ability to take Rock's big punches. How exactly does Rocky beat him ?

I know we've had this discussion before but Rocky's standard of opposition was below average to say the least. No matter what mood I'm in he'd never come remotely close to my p4p top 10.

A 200+ Holy has a chance to beat Rocky, but a 185-190 lb Holy loses by mid to late KO. Rocky would be too hard hitting and rough and tough for a cruiserweight Holyfield. The guy that beat Qawi twice and DeLeon doesn't beat Rocky Marciano. No way!

Eh, of course the heavies do not have to make weight. They are heavies, so why to try to penalise men just because NATURE created them as bigger than others? They don't have to make weight!

Ali and all the other great heavies were the kings of the ring and no men below could touch them.

I also forgot anothe great little man, Orlando CANIZALES

cowzerp · 23-05-2009 02:31PM

walshb wrote: »

A 200+ Holy has a chance to beat Rocky, but a 185-190 lb Holy loses by mid to late KO. Rocky would be too hard hitting and rough and tough for a cruiserweight Holyfield. The guy that beat Qawi twice and DeLeon doesn't beat Rocky Marciano. No way!

Evander at cruiser would bully and beat Rocky no problem-i dont see this been competitive at all-even then he was bigger than rocky and had more skills and 1 thing about evander is he wont be bullied by anyone..

Evander by late stoppage or major decision win..

colly10 · 23-05-2009 08:41PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I was a huge RJJ fan and he was imo the best pound for pound I'd ever seen in my adult life until Pretty Boy came along. For me its very tight between them but I think Floyd would get my vote.

For me the only top 10 FMJ would make is a top 10 for dodging fights, he annoys me, he seems to care far more about money than his legacy. He has stated JMM is a bigger opponent than Mosley, who's he trying to kid.
I hope pacman knocks him out

eagle eye · 23-05-2009 09:00PM

colly10 wrote: »

For me the only top 10 FMJ would make is a top 10 for dodging fights, he annoys me, he seems to care far more about money than his legacy. He has stated JMM is a bigger opponent than Mosley, who's he trying to kid.
I hope pacman knocks him out

What about the fights between JMM and Pacman, did you think Manny had cakewalks in both fights or something? Do you actually think he clearly won either fight? I don't think he won either fight, I personally believe that Marquez beat him and maybe twice.

On Mayweather, its always the same with unbeaten fighters. Guys say they fought nobody or they only fought them when they were past it.
While they are unstoppable in the ring, they just can't win with some people outside the ring.
You get it with Calzaghe, he only beat them past their best and he fought nobody. Marciano the same.

I have a thorough dislike for the Mayweather as a person but as a fighter he was imperious imo.

Boxrec All-Time P4P

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