Boxrec All-Time P4P

f1dan

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?country=&sex=m&division=P4P&status=E&SUBMIT=Go&pageID=1

mark renton

First look asks the question "why so many americans in top 20?" looks a bit iffy :cool:

Second question - i have been studying and may have been staring at the screen for too long but "wheres pacman?" I cant see him in top 50 :eek:

f1dan

It only includes retired fighters or fighters that have been inactive for over a year, hence why you see Mayweather and De La Hoya in the top 20.

adamburke83

john47832 wrote: »

First look asks the question "why so many americans in top 20?" looks a bit iffy :cool:

Second question - i have been studying and may have been staring at the screen for too long but "wheres pacman?" I cant see him in top 50 :eek:

Firstly, on the american score, i wouldnt mind that, boxrec aint up to scratch on that score, like they have one of the klitchkos in as from california usa for example,

"pacman" "Hatton" or "Barrera" aint in the top 100 let alone 50 for some reason which i find had to understand, seen they have naseem hamed, kostya tszyu, erik morales, oscar de la hoya, all of which have been beaten by the 3 that aint there

sligobhoy67

adamburke83 wrote: »

Firstly, on the american score, i wouldnt mind that, boxrec aint up to scratch on that score, like they have one of the klitchkos in as from california usa for example,

"pacman" "Hatton" or "Barrera" aint in the top 100 let alone 50 for some reason which i find had to understand, seen they have naseem hamed, kostya tszyu, erik morales, oscar de la hoya, all of which have been beaten by the 3 that aint there

isnt Vitali based in LA?

adamburke83

adamburke83 wrote: »

Firstly, on the american score, i wouldnt mind that, boxrec aint up to scratch on that score, like they have one of the klitchkos in as from california usa for example,

"pacman" "Hatton" or "Barrera" aint in the top 100 let alone 50 for some reason which i find had to understand, seen they have naseem hamed, kostya tszyu, erik morales, oscar de la hoya, all of which have been beaten by the 3 that aint there

I retract my previous statment, that is the all time list for non active fighters, if you go to the same list but click it for the active list
http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?country=&sex=m&division=P4P&status=A&SUBMIT=Go&pageID=1
"pacman" is there at #2 with Hatton at #33 and David Haye at #48

adamburke83

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

isnt Vitali based in LA?

Still dont mean he is american,
i see your point though, cos they have andy lee in with an irish flag but from detroit ha ha

dlofnep

Gene Tunney should be much higher.

mark renton

Carl Froch at 19 ?? :eek:

sligobhoy67

adamburke83 wrote: »

Still dont mean he is american,
i see your point though, cos they have andy lee in with an irish flag but from detroit ha ha

its doesnt say he is american - it says thats the country that they are ranking him in - just like Dean Byrne

adamburke83

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

its doesnt say he is american - it says thats the country that they are ranking him in - just like Dean Byrne

my mistake,
just a tad confusing:D

horsebox09

no jack dempsey or henry armstrong in the top 100??? disgraceful!

joepenguin

De La Hoya at 11 When he announced his retirment I was probably first to say he had a great career, but in the sense that he fought at the top, had ups and downs, the gold medal etc etc. Maybe top ten of this era argueably but not of all time. Maybe its because of the different weights he fought in he got more boxrec points or something.

How do they allocate them anyway?

sligobhoy67

adamburke83 wrote: »

my mistake,
just a tad confusing:D

thats ok, you know I make allowances for you Adam cos yer a but slow!

thegoth

Tyson at 75 ? Come on. He was unstoppable in his hayday

walshb

Archie Moore ahead of Ali?:rolleyes:

Ray Leonard behind Hearns?:rolleyes:

Foreman at 100, yet Frazier much higher?:rolleyes:

Oscar ahead of Duran?:rolleyes:

cowzerp

Basically like most things boxrec, its a load of arse!!

Daroxtar

Was going to ask where is roy jones but i see the bit about being retired. he'll surely have to make quite a high entry

eagle eye

walshb wrote: »

Archie Moore ahead of Ali?:rolleyes:

Ray Leonard behind Hearns?:rolleyes:

Foreman at 100, yet Frazier much higher?:rolleyes:

Oscar ahead of Duran?:rolleyes:

Agree fully with this, I only looked at the first page and no sign of Sugar Ray Leonard and Hagler, Duran and Hearns all on that page. I'm not getting into a Hagler vs Leonard but they should be side by side in the top ten either way.

Floyd Mayweather should be a lot higher up that list too. Archie Moore at no.1 is a joke. Ali is too high imo, a great heavyweight but as a pound for pound he doesn't rank with a lot of those names. I don't see RJJ on the first page either.
I wouldn't argue with Sugar Ray Robinson at no.1, but Archie Moore? I know he was a great but hardly the best all time. If you are gonna have so many heavyweights ranked then Rocky Marciano has to be ranked near the top, the man was unbeaten and took out Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott.

Then there are the obvious ones like Morales miles down the list and no sing at all of Henry Armstrong.

The biggest laugh of all in Hamed at 55. Comedy Gold imo. :pac:

walshb

eagle eye wrote: »

I wouldn't argue with Sugar Ray Robinson at no.1, but Archie Moore? I know he was a great but hardly the best all time. If you are gonna have so many heavyweights ranked then Rocky Marciano has to be ranked near the top, the man was unbeaten and took out Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott.



The biggest laugh of all in Hamed at 55. Comedy Gold imo. :pac:

Well, the peak 60's Clay/Ali is IMO number 1. Remember, he was 15 stone and moving and punching faster than welters. That says it all for me, plus his comp level was
this the best the division has ever seen! Also, he as the heavyweight has to face all comers!

Hamed on that list is bad enough, but in place of fighters like Armstrong and Sal Sanchez and Azumah Nelson; this is a joke.

colly10

thegoth wrote: »

Tyson at 75 ? Come on. He was unstoppable in his hayday

Lol, thats totally taking the piss, so that clown prince naseem is placed around 50 and Tyson ends up at 75

mark renton

colly10 wrote: »

Lol, thats totally taking the piss, so that clown prince naseem is placed around 50 and Tyson ends up at 75

Actually I would say thats about fair for Prince Naseem - I really hated the dude when he was fighting but there were few at the time that could put it up to him

Brian?

thegoth wrote: »

Tyson at 75 ? Come on. He was unstoppable in his hayday

His rating would have been lowered by being beaten so many times at the end of his career though

colly10

briankeating wrote: »

His rating would have been lowered by being beaten so many times at the end of his career though

I don't think this should make a difference, in that case a boxer would be higher rated if he left in his prime. Take RJJ for example, I don't think loosing to Calzaghe should have any affect on how he's rated (or Calzaghe is rated), he's finished and if he chooses to fight on it doesn't take away from how great he was

walshb

To be honest, it has nothing to do with it. This list is a p4p list, not a greatest career list.
It's mythical and fantasy and pure and utter speculation. A career list would be better, then, the likes of Hamed would definitely not get a sniff!

So, it should be pitting each fighter at peak and trying to argue who would be
the best of them all over a tournament. Tyson ranks damn high with
this criteria

mikethemouth

lads agree with everyones views on this list

its a complete joke ... complete nonsense..whoever compiled was clearly hammered or is completely cluless on boxing history !

another thing to add to the list of glaring position ommisions is robinson at 3 !!!!! pound for pound no one touches the guy. i meaan tyson and dempsey were at their peak p4p kings for years. i mean are these guys for real !!

ali,leonard,tyson,louis and countless others have all said there was " robinson and then the rest"

the list is just a complete piss take

Johnduddy

This thread has caused a lot of debate. I didnt agree with most of the ratings on it, some were more ridiculous than others (Moore, DLH, Frazier etc. etc)

The one that stood out most was Marciano. Any Heavyweight in any Era that fought 49 times and retired an undefeated champion deserves to be in the top 20 (at worst) of any all time list.

A lot of you disagree with most of it But whats your ALL TIME IN THEIR PRIME - Post war top TEN.

Dunno where they come up with a top 100 but my top 10 would be something like:

Robinson, Ali, Pacquiao, Marciano, Leonard, Tyson, Louis, Hagler,
Mayweather

I know Ive left out Moore and Napoles but dont know these well enough to rate them.

mikethemouth

ok so i did the top ten (post war) list john also.

the top 5 picks itself but after that i really stuggled ...my head went back and forth constantly changing....eg i did nt particularly like chavez but if we are looking from pound for pound view he kinda has to be considered in the top 10 for me. its such a hard list to compile and totally subjective....i mean look at marciano ...heavyweight devision was very poor while he reigned..his most notable wins were a retirement fight against the great joe louis and against a very old jersey joe...i have included him though as he beat whatever there was in the devision for a long stretch and was by a mile the best heavyweight in this period...only making this rambling point to emphasise the subjectiveness of this list. i would love to do a top 10 in terms of ability (that would be fun)

in no particular order if we are looking purely for p4p i would have :

sugar ray robinson, henry armstrong, joe louis, muhammed ali, rocky marciano, julia ceaser chavez, carlos manzon, mike tyson, roy jones jr,

hagler/ leonard/ duran ....i cannot pick my last choice here. my head goes back and forth constantly ...actually giving me a headache ;-) ....peronally i am hearns fan but the reality is either of these 3 or possibly all 3 can get in the top 10 imo although i think only 1 should be included as there all from the same era and between a certain weight range. seriously guys i just cant feel comfortable with my pick on these 3 class acts ... i leave it up to the forum. ;-)

johnduddy.....for me there are far more deserving fighters ahead of pacman at this point in time....for me pacman needs to do alot more to be in the top ten of all time.
also not sure on mayweather ...i can see your logic but for me hes just outside top 10 for me ....a win against pacquaio will cement his top 10 legacy for me. but thats just my opinion on a very subjective topic ;-)

walshb

Rocky deserves a much higher ranking and he did beat some great fighters like
Walcott and Charles and beat an aged Louis. But, it was his style and tenacity and power and will to win. Rocky could look crued to the
untrained eye, but he employed some beautiful moves and threw brilliant shots. He could hook beautifully with both hands and had a wicked uppercut.

He dipped so low which took amazing coordination and leg strength. He hit you everywhere and from all angles. Rocky's style I liked. He was a brawler with exceptional rugged and adapting skill. Check this caption out. Look how low he gets and watch his hooking and power punching and dipping, amazing.

At just past 7 mins into the clip!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVMLesBGMAM&feature=related

mikethemouth

agreed about marciano and his ranking position but made a point about the devision at the time which i feel is very important.

jersey joe was actually 4 yrs older than joe louis when they fought marciano so one cant put out too much weight behind that victory . his defeat of ezzard charles was the highlight of his career imo. shame he never came out of retirement to fight johnason and patterson..he was certainly young enough at 35/36.

that video is great to show you fighters especially when he dips as you say. a very young tyson used to do something similar but not as sweet and efficiet as rocky imo.

what would top 10 p4p list be dude ? what do you make of my list and johnduddy etc ?

walshb

My top ten all time p4p.

Ali....At peak and weighing 15 stone and being able to move and hit faster
than most welters or lightweight and with a steel chin, amazing stamina and
courage and supreme mental strength who fought in the toughest era
of heavyweight fighting. It's a no brainer for me

Robbie. Outside of the heavies, he was the most complete all around fighter
I have ever seen. He had power and speed and inside and outside ability and an amzing chin; he fought many HOF fighters

Ray Leonard, all that Robbie had just a tad less. Supreme boxer/fighter
with a killer instinct and amazing speed and finishing ability. Career was amazing but short of Robbies.

Duran. What a menace and another all around great who showed his
genius by moving up to beat the great Ray. Would PBF or Whitaker or Chavez have been able to move to 147 lbs and beat a Ray Leonard. No way.

Eder Jofre. An amazing all around 118 lb fighter. Serious, see clips of this
guy who had such perfect punching technique and a great chin and stamina.
Boxed and beat the boxers and outslugged the sluggers.

Rocky Marciano. Only unbeaten undisputed heavyweight great and gets my nod for reasons
given in previous post. Some may say he fought less than greats. Hey, outside the ring that's easier to say. He beat all that was in his era. Wicked hitter too.

George Foreman. For all he did in BOTH careers. Just think of what he achieved in winning the title back in 1994. IMO, the strongest physical man in boxing history with a helluva chin. Holyfield and other young men couldn't dent
a past it Foreman. Holyfield would not have withstood a 70s Foreman

Holyfield. What a fighter and career and considering he moved up and beat
some bigger and stronger men. He had such mental strength and was a beautiful combo hitter and so strong and tough.

Joe Louis. The finest and most beautiful hitter I have ever seen. His shots were so damaging and text book and aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
Hios short punches in bunches were breathtaking. Also, 25 defences, alltime
heavy record. Lot of less than great men, but some great men too.

JCC. He makes it for me. A superb pressure fighter with a chin and power and timing and stamina and footwork. Methodical and precise. Fought so many too and who can forget his destruction of
Haugen and Camacho and Rosario; and Taylor, in the last few seconds of their 1990 bout

Other close mentions include Pea Whitaker and Toney and Bob Foster and Moore and Griffith and Hagler and Sal Sanchez, and Pacman

Mike, your list is similar to mine and Tyson is a good choice who could make mine tomorrow.
See, these lists are so hard to really be definite on and tomorrow you
could take one out and insert a replacement.

Jones is a fantastic athlete and natural specimen, but he lacked the
intangibles that others on my list have. The real chin and heart for a war.
He had little inside ability and was a safety first fighter a lot of the time.
Hey, credit to him for his skill, but his leaping in style with no jab and
very unconventional shots didn't do it for me.

Monzon to me was so so so boring. I now he was damn tough and effective; but his
style was too hard to enjoy and I see Robbie and Jones and Toney beating
him at 160 lbs. Toney was at peak a marvel to watch. He had serious
skills and old school methods. His fight vs Barkley was one of the finest
displays of ring brilliance I have ever seen

cowzerp

My all time list is ever changing as i dont like to get tied down to 1!
depends how im feeling and who is on my mind, i believe there could be loads of debateable top 10's with loads of differences..

1. Ali, The Greatest
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. George Foreman
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Manny pacquio
8. Chavez
9. Tommy Hearns
10. Roberto Duran

Now thats a solid top 10, Mayweather might replace Duran! we'll see..

mikethemouth

walshb wrote: »

My top ten all time p4p.

Ali....At peak and weighing 15 stone and being able to move and hit faster
than most welters or lightweight and with a steel chin, amazing stamina and courage and supreme mental strength who fought in the toughest era
of heavyweight fighting. It's a no brainer for me

Robbie. Outside of the heavies, he was the most complete all around fighter
I have ever seen. He had power and speed and inside and outside ability and an amzing chin; he fought many HOF fighters

Ray Leonard, all that Robbie had just a tad less. Supreme boxer/fighter
with a killer instinct and amazing speed and finishing ability. Career was amazing but short of Robbies.

Duran. What a menace and another all around great who showed his
genius by moving up to beat the great Ray. Would PBF or Whitaker or Chavez have been able to move to 147 lbs and beat a Ray Leonard. No way.

Eder Jofre. An amazing all around 118 lb fighter. Serious, see clips of this
guy who had such perfect punching technique and a great chin and stamina.
Boxed and bat the boxers and outslugged the sluggers.

Rocky Marciano. Only unbeaten undisputed heavyweight great and gets my nod for reasons
given in previous post. Some may say he fought less than greats. Hey, outside the ring that's easier to say. He beat all that was in his era. Wicked hitter too.

George Foreman. For all he did in BOTH careers. Just think of what he achieved in winning the title back in 1994. IMO, the strongest physical man in boxing history with a helluva chin. Holyfield and other young men couldn't dent
a past it Foreman. Holyfield would not have withstood a 70s Foreman

Holyfield. What a fighter and career and considering he moved up and beat
some bigger and stronger men. He had such mental strength and was a beautiful combo hitter and so strong and tough.

Joe Louis. The finest and most beautiful hitter I have ever seen. His shots were so damaging and text book and aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
Hios short punches in bunches were breathtaking. Also, 25 defences, alltime
heavy record. Lot of less than great men, but some great men too.

JCC. He makes it for me. A superb pressure fighter with a chin and power and timing and stamina and footwork. Methodical and precise. Fought so many too and who can forget his destruction of
Haugen and Camacho and Rosario; and Taylor, in the last few seconds of their 1990 bout

Other close mentions include Pea Whitaker and Toney and Bob Foster and Moore and Griffith and Hagler and Sal Sanchez, and Pacman

Mike, your list is similar to mine and Tyson is a good choice who could make mine tomorrow.
See, these lists are so hard to really be definite on and tomorrow you
could take one out and insert a replacement.

Jones is a fantastic athlete and natural specimen, but he lacked the
intangibles that others on my list have. The real chin and heart for a war.
He had little inside ability and was a safety first fighter a lot of the time.
Hey, credit to him for his skill, but his leaping in style with no jab and
very unconventional shots didn't do it for me.

Monzon to me was so so so boring. I now he was damn tough and effective; but his
style was too hard to enjoy and I see Robbie and Jones and Toney beating
him at 160 lbs. Toney was at peak a marvel to watch. He had serious
skills and old school methods. His fight vs Barkley was one of the finest
displays of ring brilliance I have ever seen

some great choices there fella....only one i would disagree with is holyfield ...for me he does not get in top 10 ... a great fighter but as pound for pound in his prime i see a few people capable of beating him....ezzard charles springs to mind ....what a fight that would be at light heavy/cruiserweight !!!!

foreman is a very interesting choice and i can totally see your logic ...he was awesome in his prime .

disagree on monzon...agree about style but god had he some chin ...unbeaten for 81 fights and 13 yrs is unreal...He also beats legends like Rodrigo Valdes (twice), Emile Griffith (twice) and Jose Angel Napoles

for me hes argubaly the greatest middleweight to have lived ..conterversial i know ;-).....was thinking this morning ...imagine this fight ..roy jones jr v monzon at super middle ...omg imagine the technical ability on show !!

jofre and sanchez are also notable choices and easily could be in top 10 for me.

toney is a very interesting one and one i forgot but your right at his prime you would be hard to find a more skilful fighter who boxing brain was unreal.

what about armstrong dude ..surprised you did nt go for him ....

mikethemouth

cowzerp wrote: »

My all time list is ever changing as i dont like to get tied down to 1!
depends how im feeling and who is on my mind, i believe there could be loads of debateable top 10's with loads of differences..

1. Ali, The Greatest
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
4. George Foreman
5. Marvin Hagler
6. Evander Holyfield
7. Manny pacquio
8. Chavez
9. Tommy Hearns
10. Roberto Duran

Now thats a solid top 10, Mayweather might replace Duran! we'll see..

can t argure with most ur picks mate.... pacquaio for me though is not top 10 yet ...of the current fighters i would even have mayweather further up the food chain with regard to this list.

Tommy Hearns...probably my favorite of all time ... i so wanted to put him in but when you look at it they were far more domineering champs in their prime that deserved to be ahead of him in my opinion. if it was a top 10 on ability the hitman cruises in.

dont agree with ur rankings though mate....ali ahead of robinson , pacquio and holyfields positions as well are well off.

dont get me wrong though this is just my subjective opinion.

cowzerp

mikethemouth wrote: »

dont agree with ur rankings though mate....ali ahead of robinson , pacquio and holyfields positions as well are well off.

dont get me wrong though this is just my subjective opinion

This has been done befor and my rankings where probably far differnent each time!

Ali for me is the most important figure in all sports and made sports world wide-in my opinion he's "The Greatest" and fought in the best heavyweight division ever and beat the best-Foreman, Frazier, etc.

Holyfield well off? you could move him up but if you mean down then no way, he was undisputed cruiserweight and the most succesful heavyweight of all time with ali.

Manny is in today and after beating the likes of De la hoya and Hatton easily, Barrera twice, Morales twice, Diaz, marquez to name a few-all Legends and at different weights.. A true great no matter what way you look at him.

But as i said, my lists tend to be straight off my head and could look different day to day.

walshb

I see myself and Paul have 7 men the same in our top ten.
Like I said, the list can change and Mike, your inclusion of Armstrong
is a great choice. He had a superb career and was the first real
multiple champ. He is a worthy sub for any top ten list.

There are simply so many greats, but the real few stand out for me, Ali
and Robbie and Leonard and Duran.

Aaron Pryor is another super fighter, but his era was not mazing and a move to 147 lbs sees him lose to either of the great welters like Ray and Hearns and Starling and Curry.

Alexis Arguello is another great multiple eight fighter as are Oscar and Shane and PBF!

walshb

Why I admire Toney so much is simple:

He has spanned so many weights and still looked good and was so
hard to beat. Never been ko'd and rarely hurt in over 75 fights.

Put it this way, of all the great fighters between welter and up to LH, Toney is the one I would pick whilst weighing up to 175, as a man who could hold his own and survive against any man in history. I am not saying he beats an Ali or Marciano or Dempsey, but I bet he'd survive and give a good account.
His style was so varied and his chin and defence and ability to make his man miss was special.

Hopkins is another who had that style and ability to move between the weights and be very good.

Jones moved up and beat Ruiz, big deal. I doubt Jones would last long
against Foreman or Ali or Liston had he moved up. I think a Toney would
last the distance

mikethemouth

cowzerp wrote: »

Ali for me is the most important figure in all sports and made sports world wide-in my opinion he's "The Greatest" and fought in the best heavyweight division ever and beat the best-Foreman, Frazier, etc..

i think though you have to look at it from a pound for pound point of view....i just think robinson is ahead of ali in this respect...they guy was so good journalists had to come up with the word "pound for pound" to describe him. as regards most important figure in sports ur right.

cowzerp wrote: »

Holyfield well off? you could move him up but if you mean down then no way, he was undisputed cruiserweight and the most succesful heavyweight of all time with ali..

i really dont see your holyfield argument . hes prob the one guy i dont think deserves to be in top 10 ...for me he unified a extremely poor cruiserweight devision at the time (historically a notoriously poor devision ...is that david haye i hear ;-)) ...lost to some very average fighters like moorer, bowe,byrd etc ...at end of day in his prime he is no where near the likes of dempsey,tyson,louis,marciano,foreman and ali for me. in fairness to you, alot of people think the same of holyfield so i am in the minority ... i just think his legacy is over rated.....the guy was a great warrior etc but lacked technical ability,speed and power that the above guys had ..thats for sure.

cowzerp wrote: »

Manny is in today and after beating the likes of De la hoya and Hatton easily, Barrera twice, Morales twice, Diaz, marquez to name a few-all Legends and at different weights.. A true great no matter what way you look at him. ..

i think we need to put mannys achievements in perspective ....first of all let me say i thiink the guy is a true great as well. lets look at his two biggest fights ...were they a true measure of his ability .... De la hoya ...clearly had serious issues cutting weight ...has never really performed on big stage and was an aged fighter in decline no doubt . Regarding hatton ...how legitimate of a challenge was this ...a fighter in decline and most certainly over rated . i still think he needs a few more victories before we put him in with these esteemed guys ...personally i d have mayweather ahead of pacquio as i think hes more gifted but thats a separate argument....

cowzerp wrote: »

But as i said, my lists tend to be straight off my head and could look different day to day..

its so hard i agree

mikethemouth

walshb wrote: »

I see myself and Paul have 7 men the same in our top ten.
Like I said, the list can change and Mike, your inclusion of Armstrong
is a great choice. He had a superb career and was the first real
multiple champ. He is a worthy sub for any top ten list.

There are simply so many greats, but the real few stand out for me, Ali
and Robbie and Leonard and Duran.

Aaron Pryor is another super fighter, but his era was not mazing and a move to 147 lbs sees him lose to either of the great welters like Ray and Hearns and Starling and Curry.

Alexis Arguello is another great multiple eight fighter as are Oscar and Shane and PBF!

for me armstong is an automatic pick for this list ...i dont think anyone can argue theres been a better welterweight ....

pryor is a great candiadate also but just misses out for me ... definetly on the sub bench. i would also put willie pep on the subs bench

to be honest i think the list is better served with one fighter from the duran/leonard/haggler/hearns era

mikethemouth

walshb wrote: »

Why I admire Toney so much is simple:

He has spanned so many weights and still looked good and was so
hard to beat. Never been ko'd and rarely hurt in over 75 fights.

Put it this way, of all the great fighters between welter and up to LH, Toney is the one I would pick whilst weighing up to 175, as a man who could hold his own and survive against any man in history. I am not saying he beats an Ali or Marciano or Dempsey, but I bet he'd survive and give a good account.
His style was so varied and his chin and defence and ability to make his man miss was special.

Hopkins is another who had that style and ability to move between the weights and be very good.

Jones moved up and beat Ruiz, big deal. I doubt Jones would last long
against Foreman or Ali or Liston had he moved up. I think a Toney would
last the distance

in fairness i agree with all your toney points but one has to measure this from the point of view of a fighter been at his peak ..... and at his peak no one touched roy jones jr in the 90s

cowzerp

mikethemouth wrote: »

to be honest i think the list is better served with one fighter from the duran/leonard/haggler/hearns era

I understand that but its the reason why there all thought of so highly, it was just so competitive and probably the best era of any division.. and its hard to seperate them all for different reasons, SRL was the main man for me though,,

mikethemouth

cowzerp wrote: »

I understand that but its the reason why there all thought of so highly, it was just so competitive and probably the best era of any division.. and its hard to seperate them all for different reasons, SRL was the main man for me though,,

yeh ur right dude ....its near impossile to separate them and completely understand why they are there.... i actually got a headache last night trying to separate them ;-)

colly10

mikethemouth wrote: »

..... and at his peak no one touched roy jones jr in the 90s

+1 - For me RJJ should make top 10 before either mayweather jr or pacman, he was unbelievable -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDWnMXzgeZo

eagle eye

I was a huge RJJ fan and he was imo the best pound for pound I'd ever seen in my adult life until Pretty Boy came along. For me its very tight between them but I think Floyd would get my vote.

joepenguin

mikethemouth wrote: »

Regarding hatton ...how legitimate of a challenge was this ...a fighter in decline and most certainly over rated

I dont think Hatton is over rated. Majorly hyped / overly hyped maybe, but i dont think anyone over rates any of his attributes.

Pryor for me is one that could have made the list if his career / life didnt go the way it did. I know he beat Hearns in the amatures and Pryor reckons Hearns didnt want anything to do with him as a pro. He surely would have upset a few parties in his time.

If Manny beats Mayweather or Cotto then he definitly sits high on the list. Same if he beats Mosely but Im sure if it happened and Manny won the age thing would come up. Theres nobody on his level at 135 or 140 apart from Marquez.

megadodge

Interesting debate which will almost always end up with serious arguments - hopefully not this time !

Boxrec have a computerised system for their rankings. I'm not sure exactly how it works but they're never taken seriously as it's more or less a numbers game and all the intangibles aren't measured.

As more than one poster has mentioned it's almost impossible to come up with the same 10 any time you do it, but here's my current Top 10.

1. Roy Jones Jnr. - astonishingly gifted fighter. Never looked remotely close to losing in his prime and made some great and excellent fighters look like bums. And that was and is still the main problem with people's perception of him. He made his opponents look so ordinary, the lazy analysis was to say "but sure what's he up against" rather than research how good the opponent actually was - up til that point. The other more cynical analysis was (used by only a few to be fair) to suddenly decide after FIFTEEN F*CKING YEARS as a pro that when he's finally past his best and fighting three weights above the one he turned pro at and he eventually gets KO'd - he has no chin !!!! If that was true how did it take FIFTEEN F*CKING YEARS for everyone to notice. It didn't even take 15 fights for Amir Khan's very dodgy chin to be exposed and people say with a serious face that Jones could get away with it for FIFTEEN F*CKING YEARS !!!!

2. Sugar Ray Robinson - beautiful offensive fighter and what a puncher. However I have to say that he certainly got hit a hell of a lot more than I would expect the greatest ever to be. It's fair to say though that that could be simply because he was so offensively minded that he was going to get hit that bit more often than if he danced more. His record in his prime (welter, not middle) is stunning and no right-minded person uses the past-his-prime years against him, unlike my no. 1 on the list.

3. Roberto Duran - amazingly there are still people out there who refer to him as a 'slugger'. What an injustice. He is definitively the best defensive aggressive fighter of all time. His consistent ferociousness often blinded people to his all-round skills. Won his last world title 17 years after his first. Says it all.

4. Sugar Ray Leonard - Despite the fact that every time he fought I wanted him to lose, the man was class. Luckily for him he had tremendous competition around him as his career was quite short, which is why the boxrec ratings have him so low. Unfairly labelled a 'media creation' for much of his career his victories over other all-time greats proved him in most people's eyes.

5. Muammad Ali - Definitely the best heavy ever. Beat such a high level of competition, especially in his 'second' career when past his best that there can be no doubts about his greatness. My reasoning for not having him higher is that IMO heavyweights are p4p the worst fighters, the least disciplined and the least skilled, so on the law of averages heavies don't have to beat as consistently high a quality opponent as the lower weights.

6. Ezzard Charles - people forget this man as a natural MIDDLEWEIGHT who was shamelessly avoided there. He then went to light-heavy where he was shamelessly avoided also as he defeated every great fighter there who didn't hold the title at the time. Went to heavy and won the undisputed title in the awkward period staight after the legendary Joe Louis retired. Was already past his best when he did this, so...

7. Pernell Whitaker - Anybody talking about great defensive fighters who doesn't have him in their top 2 or 3 is a nutcase. Like SRL I couldn't stand him when he was fighting, but he defeated so many excellent fighters at his ease I couldn't ignore his greatness - and this was with no punch worth talking about !!

8. Joe Louis - The most picture perfect textbook puncher I ever saw. Every punch was beautifully delivered. Extraordinary longevity was helped by some very, very ordinary opposition, but IMO he's the second best heavy ever. Chin wasn't the greatest, but he always got up to win, which proved his mental toughness.

9. Archie Moore - Again like Ezzard Charles (who he could never beat) he was a natural middle who was ridiculously avoided. Eventually moved up to light-heavy and only given a shot when in his mid/late 30's and they thought he was past his best. He was, but was still too good and reigned for 8/9 years into his 40's. Still holds the record for the most KO's ever in one career.

10 Jimmy Wilde - I've often said how unimpressed I was when I saw the real old-time boxers. This fella was the outstanding exception. Ruled the flyweights when often weighing up to a stone lighter than his opponent. That's 1/7th of his bodyweight !! He still had a huge KO ratio and from what i've seen of him had outstanding stamina, chin and for a fighter of his time was very skilful.

That's it. Let the arguing begin !

cowzerp

Fair play on the analysis and its an interesting top 10-very good.

eagle eye

I'd be in agreement with a lot of that top 10 but no sign of Floyd Mayweather jnr is shocking imo. I'd have him ahead of Roy Jones Jnr.

I do think that on balance from all I've read that Sugar Ray Robinson was the best ever.

Edit: Actually whats also shocking in that list is no Marvin Hagler. He has to be up there with Duran and Leonard.

mark renton

Ok so I'm not sure but is this unclusive of all boxers, retired and current?

If so I cannot see how PacMan can be omitted from any mans top ten as lb 4 lb surely considers cross weight categories and world titles from 112lb to 140lb and possibly rising!!

PacMan v Klitschko ?? :eek:

walshb

"Muammad Ali - Definitely the best heavy ever. Beat such a high level of competition, especially in his 'second' career when past his best that there can be no doubts about his greatness. My reasoning for not having him higher is that IMO heavyweights are p4p the worst fighters, the least disciplined and the least skilled, so on the law of averages heavies don't have to beat as consistently high a quality opponent as the lower weights."

Well, in Clay/Ali's era I think it's okay to assume that he met some major great fighters. It was the toughest era the division has ever seen.

Also, in defence of the big men, they have to meet ANY man, or be prepared
to meet any man on the planet. Take Hags or Leonard or Hearns or Robbie; these guys had to meet men who HAD to make a certain weight, as they did!

Ray as a welter met welters, Hags as a middle met middles. There were
restrictons. There are none at heavyweight and this has to be
considered.

Ali had to meet any man on the planet and met some of the best
fighters ever, over two careers. To watch a peak 15 stone Clay/Ali move faster and hit faster than most fighters in history is worthy of the number
1 choice, not to mention the amazing chin, stamia and courage.

He had it all

Also, p4p pits two guys against each other if weight was not an issue.
I ask anyone who at 185-190 lbs would ave beaten
Marciano?

Rocky was a small heavyweight really. I see
no man in history beating the Rock over 15 whilst
weighing up to 190 lbs.

Dempsey too was a smallish heavyweight. He's just outside
my top ten!

megadodge

eagle eye wrote: »

I'd be in agreement with a lot of that top 10 but no sign of Floyd Mayweather jnr is shocking imo. I'd have him ahead of Roy Jones Jnr.

I do think that on balance from all I've read that Sugar Ray Robinson was the best ever.

Edit: Actually whats also shocking in that list is no Marvin Hagler. He has to be up there with Duran and Leonard.

IMO there is nothing that Mayweather could do that Jones couldn't, whereas the same can't be said the other way round.

My major problem with Mayweather is that while his super-feather career was as good as any in history (excellent competition defeated very decisively) everything above that is decidedly average and to be brutally honest I really think he has avoided quite a few fighters. Above super-feather he was beaten in my mind and many others against Castillo, won the rematch very unimpressively and barely squeaked past a way-past it De La Hoya. He ended up defeating Hatton with an excellent finish, but was so shamelessly aided by the referee while doing a ridiculous ammount of fouling I regard that win as a very tarnished one. If he was so much better, why did it take him 6 rounds to actually try boxing and 10 to finish it ?

That just about sums up Mayweather's career. Three quality fighters since his super-feather days (please don't mention Gatti), none of whom was dominated and no Cotto, Williams, Tszyu, Margarito (all of whom were tougher opponents) - it's not as if he was short of options, but he took none of them.

On the point of the Marvelous One, when I was in school we all had to stand up in front of class and make a prepared speech. Mine was on Hagler! So it's not like I don't like him or anything. I loved the guy, but I always try to be objective when rating fighters and while I feel he was the best middle champ ever (SRR was an outstanding welter, not middle and Monzon would have been outworked) Duran gave him 15 hard rounds when he was really an old fat lightweight. Imagine him at his peak and if they were actually the same natural weight! Irrespective of what you thought of the decision (I disagreed but it was very close) SRL was able to come out of an effective 5 year retirement and match him for much of the fight. Again imagine at their peaks and at the same natural weight. He's close but not in my top 10.