Boxrec All-Time P4P

f1dan · 09-05-2009 09:30PM #1

http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?country=&sex=m&division=P4P&status=E&SUBMIT=Go&pageID=1

mark renton · 09-05-2009 09:43PM

First look asks the question "why so many americans in top 20?" looks a bit iffy :cool:

Second question - i have been studying and may have been staring at the screen for too long but "wheres pacman?" I cant see him in top 50 :eek:

f1dan · 09-05-2009 10:10PM

It only includes retired fighters or fighters that have been inactive for over a year, hence why you see Mayweather and De La Hoya in the top 20.

adamburke83 · 09-05-2009 10:22PM

john47832 wrote: »

First look asks the question "why so many americans in top 20?" looks a bit iffy :cool:

Second question - i have been studying and may have been staring at the screen for too long but "wheres pacman?" I cant see him in top 50 :eek:

Firstly, on the american score, i wouldnt mind that, boxrec aint up to scratch on that score, like they have one of the klitchkos in as from california usa for example,

"pacman" "Hatton" or "Barrera" aint in the top 100 let alone 50 for some reason which i find had to understand, seen they have naseem hamed, kostya tszyu, erik morales, oscar de la hoya, all of which have been beaten by the 3 that aint there

sligobhoy67 · 09-05-2009 10:30PM

adamburke83 wrote: »

Firstly, on the american score, i wouldnt mind that, boxrec aint up to scratch on that score, like they have one of the klitchkos in as from california usa for example,

"pacman" "Hatton" or "Barrera" aint in the top 100 let alone 50 for some reason which i find had to understand, seen they have naseem hamed, kostya tszyu, erik morales, oscar de la hoya, all of which have been beaten by the 3 that aint there

isnt Vitali based in LA?

adamburke83 · 09-05-2009 10:32PM

adamburke83 wrote: »

Firstly, on the american score, i wouldnt mind that, boxrec aint up to scratch on that score, like they have one of the klitchkos in as from california usa for example,

"pacman" "Hatton" or "Barrera" aint in the top 100 let alone 50 for some reason which i find had to understand, seen they have naseem hamed, kostya tszyu, erik morales, oscar de la hoya, all of which have been beaten by the 3 that aint there

I retract my previous statment, that is the all time list for non active fighters, if you go to the same list but click it for the active list
http://www.boxrec.com/ratings.php?country=&sex=m&division=P4P&status=A&SUBMIT=Go&pageID=1
"pacman" is there at #2 with Hatton at #33 and David Haye at #48

adamburke83 · 09-05-2009 10:35PM

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

isnt Vitali based in LA?

Still dont mean he is american,
i see your point though, cos they have andy lee in with an irish flag but from detroit ha ha

dlofnep · 09-05-2009 10:44PM

Gene Tunney should be much higher.

mark renton · 09-05-2009 10:57PM

Carl Froch at 19 ?? :eek:

sligobhoy67 · 09-05-2009 11:00PM

adamburke83 wrote: »

Still dont mean he is american,
i see your point though, cos they have andy lee in with an irish flag but from detroit ha ha

its doesnt say he is american - it says thats the country that they are ranking him in - just like Dean Byrne

adamburke83 · 10-05-2009 12:35AM

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

its doesnt say he is american - it says thats the country that they are ranking him in - just like Dean Byrne

my mistake,
just a tad confusing:D

horsebox09 · 10-05-2009 02:06AM

no jack dempsey or henry armstrong in the top 100??? disgraceful!

joepenguin · 10-05-2009 06:45AM

De La Hoya at 11

When he announced his retirment I was probably first to say he had a great career, but in the sense that he fought at the top, had ups and downs, the gold medal etc etc. Maybe top ten of this era argueably but not of all time. Maybe its because of the different weights he fought in he got more boxrec points or something.

How do they allocate them anyway?

sligobhoy67 · 10-05-2009 10:36AM

adamburke83 wrote: »

my mistake,
just a tad confusing:D

thats ok, you know I make allowances for you Adam cos yer a but slow!

thegoth · 11-05-2009 02:01PM

Tyson at 75 ? Come on. He was unstoppable in his hayday

walshb · 11-05-2009 02:17PM

Archie Moore ahead of Ali?:rolleyes:

Ray Leonard behind Hearns?:rolleyes:

Foreman at 100, yet Frazier much higher?:rolleyes:

Oscar ahead of Duran?:rolleyes:

cowzerp · 11-05-2009 02:24PM

Basically like most things boxrec, its a load of arse!!

Daroxtar · 12-05-2009 10:02PM

Was going to ask where is roy jones but i see the bit about being retired. he'll surely have to make quite a high entry

eagle eye · 12-05-2009 11:53PM

walshb wrote: »

Archie Moore ahead of Ali?:rolleyes:

Ray Leonard behind Hearns?:rolleyes:

Foreman at 100, yet Frazier much higher?:rolleyes:

Oscar ahead of Duran?:rolleyes:

Agree fully with this, I only looked at the first page and no sign of Sugar Ray Leonard and Hagler, Duran and Hearns all on that page. I'm not getting into a Hagler vs Leonard but they should be side by side in the top ten either way.

Floyd Mayweather should be a lot higher up that list too. Archie Moore at no.1 is a joke. Ali is too high imo, a great heavyweight but as a pound for pound he doesn't rank with a lot of those names. I don't see RJJ on the first page either.
I wouldn't argue with Sugar Ray Robinson at no.1, but Archie Moore? I know he was a great but hardly the best all time. If you are gonna have so many heavyweights ranked then Rocky Marciano has to be ranked near the top, the man was unbeaten and took out Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott.

Then there are the obvious ones like Morales miles down the list and no sing at all of Henry Armstrong.

The biggest laugh of all in Hamed at 55. Comedy Gold imo. :pac:

walshb · 13-05-2009 06:52AM

eagle eye wrote: »

I wouldn't argue with Sugar Ray Robinson at no.1, but Archie Moore? I know he was a great but hardly the best all time. If you are gonna have so many heavyweights ranked then Rocky Marciano has to be ranked near the top, the man was unbeaten and took out Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott.

The biggest laugh of all in Hamed at 55. Comedy Gold imo. :pac:

Well, the peak 60's Clay/Ali is IMO number 1. Remember, he was 15 stone and moving and punching faster than welters. That says it all for me, plus his comp level was
this the best the division has ever seen! Also, he as the heavyweight has to face all comers!

Hamed on that list is bad enough, but in place of fighters like Armstrong and Sal Sanchez and Azumah Nelson; this is a joke.

colly10 · 13-05-2009 11:17AM

thegoth wrote: »

Tyson at 75 ? Come on. He was unstoppable in his hayday

Lol, thats totally taking the piss, so that clown prince naseem is placed around 50 and Tyson ends up at 75

mark renton · 13-05-2009 11:37AM

colly10 wrote: »

Lol, thats totally taking the piss, so that clown prince naseem is placed around 50 and Tyson ends up at 75

Actually I would say thats about fair for Prince Naseem - I really hated the dude when he was fighting but there were few at the time that could put it up to him

Brian? · 13-05-2009 01:09PM

thegoth wrote: »

Tyson at 75 ? Come on. He was unstoppable in his hayday

His rating would have been lowered by being beaten so many times at the end of his career though

colly10 · 13-05-2009 01:45PM

briankeating wrote: »

His rating would have been lowered by being beaten so many times at the end of his career though

I don't think this should make a difference, in that case a boxer would be higher rated if he left in his prime. Take RJJ for example, I don't think loosing to Calzaghe should have any affect on how he's rated (or Calzaghe is rated), he's finished and if he chooses to fight on it doesn't take away from how great he was

walshb · 13-05-2009 01:52PM

To be honest, it has nothing to do with it. This list is a p4p list, not a greatest career list.
It's mythical and fantasy and pure and utter speculation. A career list would be better, then, the likes of Hamed would definitely not get a sniff!

So, it should be pitting each fighter at peak and trying to argue who would be
the best of them all over a tournament. Tyson ranks damn high with
this criteria

mikethemouth · 13-05-2009 05:37PM

lads agree with everyones views on this list

its a complete joke ... complete nonsense..whoever compiled was clearly hammered or is completely cluless on boxing history !

another thing to add to the list of glaring position ommisions is robinson at 3 !!!!! pound for pound no one touches the guy. i meaan tyson and dempsey were at their peak p4p kings for years. i mean are these guys for real !!

ali,leonard,tyson,louis and countless others have all said there was " robinson and then the rest"

the list is just a complete piss take

Johnduddy · 15-05-2009 01:29AM

This thread has caused a lot of debate. I didnt agree with most of the ratings on it, some were more ridiculous than others (Moore, DLH, Frazier etc. etc)

The one that stood out most was Marciano. Any Heavyweight in any Era that fought 49 times and retired an undefeated champion deserves to be in the top 20 (at worst) of any all time list.

A lot of you disagree with most of it But whats your ALL TIME IN THEIR PRIME - Post war top TEN.

Dunno where they come up with a top 100 but my top 10 would be something like:

Robinson, Ali, Pacquiao, Marciano, Leonard, Tyson, Louis, Hagler,
Mayweather

I know Ive left out Moore and Napoles but dont know these well enough to rate them.

mikethemouth · 15-05-2009 02:48AM

ok so i did the top ten (post war) list john also.

the top 5 picks itself but after that i really stuggled ...my head went back and forth constantly changing....eg i did nt particularly like chavez but if we are looking from pound for pound view he kinda has to be considered in the top 10 for me. its such a hard list to compile and totally subjective....i mean look at marciano ...heavyweight devision was very poor while he reigned..his most notable wins were a retirement fight against the great joe louis and against a very old jersey joe...i have included him though as he beat whatever there was in the devision for a long stretch and was by a mile the best heavyweight in this period...only making this rambling point to emphasise the subjectiveness of this list. i would love to do a top 10 in terms of ability (that would be fun)

in no particular order if we are looking purely for p4p i would have :

sugar ray robinson, henry armstrong, joe louis, muhammed ali, rocky marciano, julia ceaser chavez, carlos manzon, mike tyson, roy jones jr,

hagler/ leonard/ duran ....i cannot pick my last choice here. my head goes back and forth constantly ...actually giving me a headache ;-) ....peronally i am hearns fan but the reality is either of these 3 or possibly all 3 can get in the top 10 imo although i think only 1 should be included as there all from the same era and between a certain weight range. seriously guys i just cant feel comfortable with my pick on these 3 class acts ... i leave it up to the forum. ;-)

johnduddy.....for me there are far more deserving fighters ahead of pacman at this point in time....for me pacman needs to do alot more to be in the top ten of all time.
also not sure on mayweather ...i can see your logic but for me hes just outside top 10 for me ....a win against pacquaio will cement his top 10 legacy for me. but thats just my opinion on a very subjective topic ;-)

walshb · 15-05-2009 12:33PM

Rocky deserves a much higher ranking and he did beat some great fighters like
Walcott and Charles and beat an aged Louis. But, it was his style and tenacity and power and will to win. Rocky could look crued to the
untrained eye, but he employed some beautiful moves and threw brilliant shots. He could hook beautifully with both hands and had a wicked uppercut.

He dipped so low which took amazing coordination and leg strength. He hit you everywhere and from all angles. Rocky's style I liked. He was a brawler with exceptional rugged and adapting skill. Check this caption out. Look how low he gets and watch his hooking and power punching and dipping, amazing.

At just past 7 mins into the clip!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVMLesBGMAM&feature=related

mikethemouth · 15-05-2009 01:27PM

agreed about marciano and his ranking position but made a point about the devision at the time which i feel is very important.

jersey joe was actually 4 yrs older than joe louis when they fought marciano so one cant put out too much weight behind that victory . his defeat of ezzard charles was the highlight of his career imo. shame he never came out of retirement to fight johnason and patterson..he was certainly young enough at 35/36.

that video is great to show you fighters especially when he dips as you say. a very young tyson used to do something similar but not as sweet and efficiet as rocky imo.

what would top 10 p4p list be dude ? what do you make of my list and johnduddy etc ?

walshb · 15-05-2009 02:18PM

My top ten all time p4p.

Ali....At peak and weighing 15 stone and being able to move and hit faster
than most welters or lightweight and with a steel chin, amazing stamina and
courage and supreme mental strength who fought in the toughest era
of heavyweight fighting. It's a no brainer for me

Robbie. Outside of the heavies, he was the most complete all around fighter
I have ever seen. He had power and speed and inside and outside ability and an amzing chin; he fought many HOF fighters

Ray Leonard, all that Robbie had just a tad less. Supreme boxer/fighter
with a killer instinct and amazing speed and finishing ability. Career was amazing but short of Robbies.

Duran. What a menace and another all around great who showed his
genius by moving up to beat the great Ray. Would PBF or Whitaker or Chavez have been able to move to 147 lbs and beat a Ray Leonard. No way.

Eder Jofre. An amazing all around 118 lb fighter. Serious, see clips of this
guy who had such perfect punching technique and a great chin and stamina.
Boxed and beat the boxers and outslugged the sluggers.

Rocky Marciano. Only unbeaten undisputed heavyweight great and gets my nod for reasons
given in previous post. Some may say he fought less than greats. Hey, outside the ring that's easier to say. He beat all that was in his era. Wicked hitter too.

George Foreman. For all he did in BOTH careers. Just think of what he achieved in winning the title back in 1994. IMO, the strongest physical man in boxing history with a helluva chin. Holyfield and other young men couldn't dent
a past it Foreman. Holyfield would not have withstood a 70s Foreman

Holyfield. What a fighter and career and considering he moved up and beat
some bigger and stronger men. He had such mental strength and was a beautiful combo hitter and so strong and tough.

Joe Louis. The finest and most beautiful hitter I have ever seen. His shots were so damaging and text book and aesthetically pleasing to the eye.
Hios short punches in bunches were breathtaking. Also, 25 defences, alltime
heavy record. Lot of less than great men, but some great men too.

JCC. He makes it for me. A superb pressure fighter with a chin and power and timing and stamina and footwork. Methodical and precise. Fought so many too and who can forget his destruction of
Haugen and Camacho and Rosario; and Taylor, in the last few seconds of their 1990 bout

Other close mentions include Pea Whitaker and Toney and Bob Foster and Moore and Griffith and Hagler and Sal Sanchez, and Pacman

Mike, your list is similar to mine and Tyson is a good choice who could make mine tomorrow.
See, these lists are so hard to really be definite on and tomorrow you
could take one out and insert a replacement.

Jones is a fantastic athlete and natural specimen, but he lacked the
intangibles that others on my list have. The real chin and heart for a war.
He had little inside ability and was a safety first fighter a lot of the time.
Hey, credit to him for his skill, but his leaping in style with no jab and
very unconventional shots didn't do it for me.

Monzon to me was so so so boring. I now he was damn tough and effective; but his
style was too hard to enjoy and I see Robbie and Jones and Toney beating
him at 160 lbs. Toney was at peak a marvel to watch. He had serious
skills and old school methods. His fight vs Barkley was one of the finest
displays of ring brilliance I have ever seen

Boxrec All-Time P4P

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