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Garda gets €15k over stress of tackling naked woman!

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Comments

  • #122
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 99,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Why did they need to wait 3 months ?

    Couldn't they have tested the woman, is she had neither virus then happy days. And if she was positive then slap a load of anti-virals into him.


  • #123
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    Even if the woman was infected, and even if she did chomp down and bite him without his being aware of it, and even if she was bleeding orally when she did so; then the chances of him becoming infected were still infinitely small for the simple reason that cuts bleed out and not in.

    What I'd like to know is where the feck were any decent medical professionals in all of this?


  • #124
    dsmythy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,594 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    Bloody hell. I guess we can give Gardai actual kiddie gloves to avoid getting cuts on their hands. A face guard as well to protect against spitting. A crotch guard too incase they are hit down below and lose the ability to have children.

    :rolleyes: is all i've got to say on this case.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Why did they need to wait 3 months ?

    Couldn't they have tested the woman, is she had neither virus then happy days. And if she was positive then slap a load of anti-virals into him.

    But what about her RIGHTS!

    /cries with blood seeping from his heart


  • #125
    meathstevie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    If you compare this Garda with for example a builder taking a tumble down a properly put up scaffold through no particular fault or negligence on his behalf would anyone still consider some compensation as extraordinary ?

    Just like the builder having a Safe Pass and being trained in the use of scaffolding that particular Garda would have been trained in restraining techniques and the use of batons and cuffs but that still doesn't mean mishaps are eliminated.


  • #126
    meathstevie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    dsmythy wrote: »
    Bloody hell. I guess we can give Gardai actual kiddie gloves to avoid getting cuts on their hands. A face guard as well to protect against spitting. A crotch guard too incase they are hit down below and lose the ability to have children.

    :rolleyes: is all i've got to say on this case.



    But what about her RIGHTS!

    /cries with blood seeping from his heart

    Yes you could do that; it's called public order dress/uniform. Problem is you can't always plan for these incidents.


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  • #127
    deadwood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    Naos wrote: »
    Now the main question I put to you regarding this is: When you sign up to be a Garda, are you not aware of the potenial dangers involved with the job and if so why should this Garda be compensated?

    As mentioned earlier in the thread, it's like a Fireman getting compensated for smoke inhalation.
    We sign up to uphold the law. Of course there are risks, as there are in stepping out your front door every morning. If a person gets injured in a traffic accident, are they not meant to claim because there's an acceptable risk factor in driving on Irish roads? Whatever the merits of this case are, the guard went into work that morning in good health and went home having potentially contracting a life-changing illness.

    The fireman would rightly sue for smoke inhalation if he wasn't given the proper equipment and training and was still compelled to do his job.

    This article has concentrated on the naked nigerian woman and HIV to make a headline. In reality, Hep B holds more fear for Emergency Service personell, and i'm guessing, for this guard but this isn't as newsworthy.

    People have remarked that she should have been tested, hand-cuffed etc. but she does not give up her human rights to dignity even though she's being put on a plane.

    Imagine the oiutrage if a guard was leading a woman through the airport in cuffs?
    Naos wrote: »
    Are the Gardai CU rates the same as a normal CU?
    At the risk of drifting off topic, I presume you mean interest rates? I don't know, to be straight, but if a credit union decides to charge 1% on a car loan, isn't that up to them as long as they meet the terms of the financial regulators? It is a normal Credit Union. No perks in that!


  • #128
    meathstevie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,778 ✭✭✭meathstevie


    Deadwood, I don't really want to contradict you but after she possibly assaulted a Garda and definitely resisted the execution of a deportion order I can't see any problem with her being handcuffed on her way to the airport as a precaution. Once she's on the plane it's up to the senior pilot to decide what to do in relation to safety issues and possibly restraining passengers.


  • #129
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    Even if the woman was infected, and even if she did chomp down and bite him without his being aware of it, and even if she was bleeding orally when she did so; then the chances of him becoming infected were still infinitely small for the simple reason that cuts bleed out and not in.

    Can you please explain how rabies is so easily transmissible by biting then?


  • #130
    deadwood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    meathstevie wrote: »
    Deadwood, I don't really want to contradict you but after she possibly assaulted a Garda and definitely resisted the execution of a deportion order I can't see any problem with her being handcuffed on her way to the airport as a precaution. Once she's on the plane it's up to the senior pilot to decide what to do in relation to safety issues and possibly restraining passengers.
    Personally, I agree. I was on about public and media reaction really.


  • #131
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    javaboy wrote: »
    Can you please explain how rabies is so easily transmissible by biting then?

    Rabies is an entirely different virus to HIV, it is carried in the saliva and permeates cell membranes directly by adsorption, and has evolved to be transmitted in this manner. Hope that clears that one up :)


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  • #132
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    Then yes why not. I've lived for years in a place where HIV infection runs around 38%. I'm 100% certainI've snogged womens with the virus. Don't have HIV though.
    Are you positive?
    brayblue24 wrote: »
    We buy our own lunches. Any insurance is obtained and maintained privately as is our medical care.

    My other question was "Who takes care of them?"- any answers.

    Gotta love your naivete though!
    Really, if a guard gets injured on duty the state won't pay a penny for your hospital and medical expenses?


  • #133
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    Rabies is an entirely different virus to HIV, it is carried in the saliva and permeates cell membranes directly by adsorption, and has evolved to be transmitted in this manner. Hope that clears that one up :)

    Yep it has the absorption advantage over HIV but the saliva vs blood thing isn't an issue in your example because you said she had been bleeding orally and clamped down on him. So there would be time for the blood to mix and get into the wound.

    Hardly an "infinitely small" likelihood of infection is it?


  • #134
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Are you positive?

    lol I so very nearly posted that I was before I copped on what I was saying. But yeah I'm positive I'm not positive.


  • #135
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    lol I so very nearly posted that I was before I copped on what I was saying. But yeah I'm positive I'm not positive.
    lol, I'm surprised nobody else said it. I couldn't leave you hanging like that. :D


  • #136
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    javaboy wrote: »
    Yep it has the absorption advantage over HIV but the saliva vs blood thing isn't an issue in your example because you said she had been bleeding orally and clamped down on him. So there would be time for the blood to mix and get into the wound.

    Hardly an "infinitely small" likelihood of infection is it?

    How will it be transported inwards through tiny capillaries when blood is flowing out through them under pressure? The blood in the capillary can only travel in single file so to speak, and is squeezed and deformed as it passes through due to average capillary size being slighter smaller than average red blood cell size. Even without the issue of outflow pressure it would be nigh on impossible for the HIV virus to find room to get past them. There are millions of people with HIV and not one recorded case in the literature of somebody having contracted it by being bitten.


  • #137
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    How will it be transported inwards through tiny capillaries when blood is flowing out through them under pressure? The blood in the capillary can only travel in single file so to speak, and is squeezed and deformed as it passes through due to average capillary size being slighter smaller than average red blood cell size. Even without the issue of outflow pressure it would be nigh on impossible for the HIV virus to find room to get past them. There are millions of people with HIV and not one recorded case in the literature of somebody having contracted it by being bitten.

    http://www.aegis.org/conferences/IASHIVPT/2005/MoPe10-1P10.html
    http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102217664.html
    http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102218646.html

    That's three cases in the first 5 Google results for hiv transmission by bite.

    I appreciate the theory behind your argument. And in general I'm sure the pressure and the other factors you mention will for the most part prevent infection. But surely you must concede that there is some small possibility for bite infection when the biter is bleeding orally? And not an infinitely small one either.


  • #138
    O'Coonassa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,318 ✭✭✭O'Coonassa


    javaboy wrote: »
    http://www.aegis.org/conferences/IASHIVPT/2005/MoPe10-1P10.html
    http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102217664.html
    http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/MeetingAbstracts/ma?f=102218646.html

    That's three cases in the first 5 Google results for hiv transmission by bite.

    I appreciate the theory behind your argument. And in general I'm sure the pressure and the other factors you mention will for the most part prevent infection. But surely you must concede that there is some small possibility for bite infection when the biter is bleeding orally? And not an infinitely small one either.

    :o Dagnabit they didn't show up on the medline search that I did. You've found most of the only few cases. Using google I can find four cases in the years 1996, 1997 and 2005 and two of those aren't 100% certain.

    To put this in perspective in 2007 around 30,000,000 people had the virus and 25,000,000 had died from it since 1981. The chances of being infected by bite, if not infinitely small, are really so small as to be insignificant.

    Those few rare cases do indeed show that the transmission of HIV through human bites is biologically possible, but they also indicate how highly unlikely and epidemiologically insignificant it is.

    Any medical professional worth their salt would have told the guard not to be worrying. They'd have explained that the chances of the woman being a carrier were only around 3% at most, that the woman would have had to have been bleeding, that a bite would have left teeth marks etc. Really his mind should have been put at ease and I find it suspicously odd that this didn't happen.

    No matter how I try I really cannot see that €15,000 worth of suffering has gone on.


  • #139
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    O'Coonassa wrote: »
    Those few rare cases do indeed show that the transmission of HIV through human bites is biologically possible, but they also indicate how highly unlikely and epidemiologically insignificant it is.

    Depends on how many human on human bites there are in total though doesn't it? The chances of a HIV positive person having been infected by the bite of a HIV positive person is tiny but the chances of a person bitten by a HIV positive person becoming HIV positive may be significant enough to cause worry.

    As for the compensation thing, personally I think it's excessive and probably could have been avoided if the statistics and so on were explained clearly at the earliest opportunity to put his mind at ease.

    I do know of a guy who was robbed at syringe point at an ATM. He got such a fright when the thief tapped him on the shoulder that he turned around and the syringe stuck in him by accident. The scumbag robbing him was obviously not intending on using the needle as his face went white as soon as it happened. He didn't even bother to actually rob him. He just said "I haven't got AIDS or anything" and then ran off.

    Still the guy's life was ****ed up for the next 6 months or so. He couldn't have sex with his girlfriend and was constantly thinking about the results and got steadily more and more depressed. Thankfully he got the all clear in the end but it messed him up for a while. Maybe not €15,000 messed up but still it can have a serious impact.


  • #140
    Naos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭Naos


    deadwood wrote: »
    We sign up to uphold the law. Of course there are risks, as there are in stepping out your front door every morning. If a person gets injured in a traffic accident, are they not meant to claim because there's an acceptable risk factor in driving on Irish roads? Whatever the merits of this case are, the guard went into work that morning in good health and went home having potentially contracting a life-changing illness.

    They would claim off the persons insurance and the insurance company can then chase the person if they so wish, not the government.
    The fireman would rightly sue for smoke inhalation if he wasn't given the proper equipment and training and was still compelled to do his job.

    You want the Garda to walk around in a bullet proof suit?
    This article has concentrated on the naked nigerian woman and HIV to make a headline. In reality, Hep B holds more fear for Emergency Service personell, and i'm guessing, for this guard but this isn't as newsworthy.

    Agreed
    People have remarked that she should have been tested, hand-cuffed etc. but she does not give up her human rights to dignity even though she's being put on a plane.

    Imagine the oiutrage if a guard was leading a woman through the airport in cuffs?

    Why should it matter if it is a woman or man? If a foreigner commits a crime over here they should be kicked out of the country after the jail sentence.
    At the risk of drifting off topic, I presume you mean interest rates? I don't know, to be straight, but if a credit union decides to charge 1% on a car loan, isn't that up to them as long as they meet the terms of the financial regulators? It is a normal Credit Union. No perks in that!

    Well I was of the understanding the Garda CU offered cheaper + bigger loans - if someone could clarify this for me that'd be great. If this is true then it's a massive perk because who pays for it? The taxpayers.


  • #141
    bnagrrl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 996 ✭✭✭bnagrrl


    Naos wrote: »
    Well I was of the understanding the Garda CU offered cheaper + bigger loans - if someone could clarify this for me that'd be great. If this is true then it's a massive perk because who pays for it? The taxpayers.

    I think the Garda pays the money back themselves, same way any other credit union or bank loan works. :confused:

    Am I missing something here? English is not my first language. :)


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  • #142
    deadwood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    Naos wrote: »
    .. If this is true then it's a massive perk because who pays for it? The taxpayers.
    How do the taxpayers pay for this?
    Oh, I get it. The taxpayer pays the guards salary, so pays his loans back too?

    Will you hurry up with my mortgage payment so, the levy is putting me in a pinch!


  • #143
    brayblue24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭brayblue24


    Naos wrote: »
    Look Bray, let's be honest, members of the Gardai do have a lot of privileges, from cheaper pizzas in certain pizza shops (I know because I've worked in them) to the Gardai Credit Union. Don't say the job does not come without the perks.

    Now the main question I put to you regarding this is: When you sign up to be a Garda, are you not aware of the potenial dangers involved with the job and if so why should this Garda be compensated?

    As mentioned earlier in the thread, it's like a Fireman getting compensated for smoke inhalation.

    I'll start by saying we're bound to end up agreeing to disagree. I have no problem with that, it's healthy discussion and I respect what you have to say and where you're coming from.

    I have never received free or cheap food in 20 years-anywhere. It's been offered, granted, but always politely refused.
    There are two Garda credit unions, both formed by the guards or retired guards. They are funded by their membership and are bound by the same regulations as any other credit union. Because they are both well run does not make them a perk. If I take out a loan I pay interest.

    To answer your second question I see where you're coming from but the compensation act in question here was established in around 1945 so yeah, I did know what I was signing up for but remember people have successful claims when they are injured in, for example, traffic accidents that are not their fault but when they took out insurance that's what they signed up for too.

    It's not the same as a fireman getting compo for smoke inhalation. I have taken kicks, punches and spits etc. as an occupational hazard and just got on with it as I will continue to do but you must remember that firstly to suffer from PTSD you must be diagnosed by a trained professional, you can't just go in there and decide it yourself. Secondly, this man did not decide what his claim was worth, that was decided by an independent judge, a person above reproach in the eyes of the law.


  • #144
    brayblue24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭brayblue24


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Are you positive?

    Really, if a guard gets injured on duty the state won't pay a penny for your hospital and medical expenses?

    You'll pay your own bills and then do what this claimant did and end up in court trying to get them back. That's another point how much of this award was the recovery of his medical expenses?


  • #145
    SoWatchaWant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭SoWatchaWant


    javaboy wrote: »
    Depends on how many human on human bites there are in total though doesn't it? The chances of a HIV positive person having been infected by the bite of a HIV positive person is tiny but the chances of a person bitten by a HIV positive person becoming HIV positive may be significant enough to cause worry.

    As for the compensation thing, personally I think it's excessive and probably could have been avoided if the statistics and so on were explained clearly at the earliest opportunity to put his mind at ease.

    I do know of a guy who was robbed at syringe point at an ATM. He got such a fright when the thief tapped him on the shoulder that he turned around and the syringe stuck in him by accident. The scumbag robbing him was obviously not intending on using the needle as his face went white as soon as it happened. He didn't even bother to actually rob him. He just said "I haven't got AIDS or anything" and then ran off.

    Still the guy's life was ****ed up for the next 6 months or so. He couldn't have sex with his girlfriend and was constantly thinking about the results and got steadily more and more depressed. Thankfully he got the all clear in the end but it messed him up for a while. Maybe not €15,000 messed up but still it can have a serious impact.

    I know of a lad who got mugged and syringed by a junkie. Up till he got stabbed, he was scared and compliant. But when he got stabbed, he had nothing to lose, so he beat the **** out of the cúnt.


  • #146
    javaboy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    SoWatchaWant wrote: »
    I know of a lad who got mugged and syringed by a junkie. Up till he got stabbed, he was scared and compliant. But when he got stabbed, he had nothing to lose, so he beat the **** out of the cúnt.

    Nice! That's probably why the scumbag ran away in the case I talked about. He'd lost the only advantage he had.


  • #147
    Naos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭Naos


    bnagrrl wrote: »
    I think the Garda pays the money back themselves, same way any other credit union or bank loan works. :confused:

    Am I missing something here? English is not my first language. :)
    deadwood wrote: »
    How do the taxpayers pay for this?
    Oh, I get it. The taxpayer pays the guards salary, so pays his loans back too?

    Will you hurry up with my mortgage payment so, the levy is putting me in a pinch!

    I withdraw the taxpayer comment due to a bit of a brain hiccup (And dead, no I didn't mean the taxpayers pay the gardai's salary):pac:

    Basically I meant that having an instition like that is a massive perk - again I'm under the impression the interest ratre on a loan is lower than normal and it's also a lot easier to get a loan, but someone one need to verify/deny this for me. If true, then this is a perk. I'd consider it a perk if I had something like this in the company I work for.


  • #148
    Naos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,740 ✭✭✭Naos


    brayblue24 wrote: »
    I'll start by saying we're bound to end up agreeing to disagree. I have no problem with that, it's healthy discussion and I respect what you have to say and where you're coming from.

    I have never received free or cheap food in 20 years-anywhere. It's been offered, granted, but always politely refused.
    There are two Garda credit unions, both formed by the guards or retired guards. They are funded by their membership and are bound by the same regulations as any other credit union. Because they are both well run does not make them a perk. If I take out a loan I pay interest.

    Is the interest rate lower than a normal CU? If the company I work in had something like this I'd consider it to be a perk, regardless of whom it was set up by, thats what I'm getting at. We get our health insurance paid for us, that to me is a perk of the job.
    To answer your second question I see where you're coming from but the compensation act in question here was established in around 1945 so yeah, I did know what I was signing up for but remember people have successful claims when they are injured in, for example, traffic accidents that are not their fault but when they took out insurance that's what they signed up for too.

    It's not the same as a fireman getting compo for smoke inhalation. I have taken kicks, punches and spits etc. as an occupational hazard and just got on with it as I will continue to do but you must remember that firstly to suffer from PTSD you must be diagnosed by a trained professional, you can't just go in there and decide it yourself. Secondly, this man did not decide what his claim was worth, that was decided by an independent judge, a person above reproach in the eyes of the law.

    And as Wibbs touched on earlier - where are all the real men gone? You didn't go and get tested when you were spat upon for aids did you, then claim compensation? This is what people are getting at.

    And fair play to you for turning down the free food and putting up with the kicks, punches and spits over the years. A lot of people give the Gardai abuse, even in this thread some people calling them pigs, but I'm sure they'd have no hesistation in calling them should their car be stolen / house burgled.

    I have a lot of respect for the Gardai and it is an honourable job, but something like this just puts those values in jeopardy and may lead to more Gardai claiming compensation / refusing to do certain elements of their job because of the risk factor (which they signed up to) involved.


  • #149
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    brayblue24 wrote: »
    You'll pay your own bills and then do what this claimant did and end up in court trying to get them back. That's another point how much of this award was the recovery of his medical expenses?
    Well I'm pretty shocked, I was full sure Guards would have medical insurance supplied or at least have any hospital expenses paid if they got injured in the line of duty.

    If indeed Guards are abandoned when their injured while on duty then I wouldn't mind them suing for costs. He still got way over the odds for an exam and don't think the stress thing holds up but I've no problem with him trying now that I've heard that. Now I blame the judge for being too generous.


  • #150
    Degsy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,397 ✭✭✭✭Degsy


    See the way bogus asylum seekers are costing us money,even as they're getting kicked out?
    Far better if we'd never let the woman into the country in the first place.


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  • #151
    kmick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,375 ✭✭✭kmick


    Why do the Gardai not have a procedure for deportation where they deported are cuffed hands and feet. Sounds like typical "woud you get of the van there luv". This person was obviously able to take her clothes off and run away easily. Its all a bit Irish.

    Jesus if you owed a credit union 100 euro youd be trussed up and fired in jail faster than you could say "bank bailout".


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