Midlands International Airport: Good idea or not?

invincibleirish · 11-05-2009 01:28PM

A representative for this laughable idea was on the radio this morning hawking his wares. whilst he had some good PR bluster going on when it got to the nitty gritty he explained how this project, costed at €200m, is going to be funded. He stressed private investment was being sought but also mentioned potential investment from a national infrastructure fund.

This fits all the criteria gombeen FF have assembled over the years, it 'connects' the Midlands triangle under the discredited National Spatial Strategy, it 'integrates' with transport links (Galway-Dublin line is nearby) it fits all the criteria for our Irish version of regional development.

Pork Barrel.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/morningireland/

Gruffalo · 11-05-2009 04:46PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

A representative for this laughable idea was on the radio this morning hawking his wares. whilst he had some good PR bluster going on when it got to the nitty gritty he explained how this project, costed at €200m, is going to be funded. He stressed private investment was being sought but also mentioned potential investment from a national infrastructure fund.

This fits all the criteria gombeen FF have assembled over the years, it 'connects' the Midlands triangle under the discredited National Spatial Strategy, it 'integrates' with transport links (Galway-Dublin line is nearby) it fits all the criteria for our Irish version of regional development.

Pork Barrel.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/morningireland/

Yes and if you listed to the clip, he says that there are train links to Dublin which take 50 minutes. The nearest station will be Clara approx. 5 miles, and it takes a lot longer than 50 minutes to get to Dublin from Clara.

Sponge Bob · 12-05-2009 08:51AM

The state will gladly pay to twin track the line from Clara to Portarlington ...and straighten the bloody thing out too . They might as well throw in a spur out to the airport too....sure why not .

That then leaves you only with 70-75 miles From Clara to Heuston station and with 50 Minutes to get there

Legend . Waaaay faster than that yoke the Stansted Express which does c.30 miles in 40-45 minutes

****ing amazing what happens to the laws of physics in a bog wha ????

Boxcarwillie · 12-05-2009 02:05PM

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The state will gladly pay to twin track the line from Clara to Portarlington ...and straighten the bloody thing out too . They might as well throw in a spur out to the airport too....sure why not .

That then leaves you only with 70-75 miles From Clara to Heuston station and with 50 Minutes to get there

Legend . Waaaay faster than that yoke the Stansted Express which does c.30 miles in 40-45 minutes

****ing amazing what happens to the laws of physics in a bog wha ????

No more ridiculous than spending billions digging a burrow from the congested city center to an already crammed dublin airport. It's amazing what happens to the laws of economics in the city.

markpb · 12-05-2009 02:06PM

Boxcarwillie wrote: »

No more ridiculous than spending billions digging a burrow from the congested city center to an already crammed dublin airport. It's amazing what happens to the laws of economics in the city.

Did you type that with a straight face? :boggles:

Sponge Bob · 12-05-2009 02:22PM

Nothing short of a TGV would do in Offaly , rather obviously

50 minutes , ho ho ho .

fricatus · 12-05-2009 04:22PM

What will the airport code be?

I suggest "BFO"

G_R · 12-05-2009 04:49PM

fricatus wrote: »

I suggest "BFO"

perfect haha:pac:

Sponge Bob · 12-05-2009 05:31PM

fricatus wrote: »

What will the airport code be?

I suggest "BFO"

BFO is allocated ( rather aptly) to Zimbabwe and BIF to Texas and BFF to Nebraska

Fortunately LIE IS available ,

Leinster International Exoport anybody ???

Gruffalo · 12-05-2009 08:35PM

fricatus wrote: »

What will the airport code be?

I suggest "BFO"

Aren't you from Waterford? You are not really in a position to laugh at useless, pipedream airports.

Alfasud · 03-09-2009 01:07AM

The plans are still with An Bord Pleanala and no decision has been made. It looks like there are no investers either. The railway line from Athlone to Mullingar couldnt be opened so its unlikely that this will be built either. Its all gone very quiet.

Sponge Bob · 03-09-2009 07:13AM

They are advertising heavily for Investors out in that Bog

fuzzy dunlop · 10-09-2009 04:10AM

Gruffalo wrote: »

Aren't you from Waterford? You are not really in a position to laugh at useless, pipedream airports.

He is actually.Waterford airport was the only regional airport turning a profit in the 80's albeit a small one without a PSO grant. Yet we had every other regional airport reporting profits which included the PSO's in their financial statements.Remove the PSO's from all the airports and then see what happens.

spacetweek · 10-09-2009 05:55PM

Alfasud wrote: »

The plans are still with An Bord Pleanala and no decision has been made. It looks like there are no investers either. The railway line from Athlone to Mullingar couldnt be opened so its unlikely that this will be built either. Its all gone very quiet.

With Dublin's 50% capacity expansion by April 2010 and a downturn, is this airport ever going to be needed? It would need lots of infrastructure and we're investing billions in a Metro for Dublin's and hundreds of millions have already been spent on new gates etc. in the last few years. Better to consolidate air travel at the newly improved DUB than having to set up a whole new airport out in the sticks.

gunbarrel · 10-09-2009 07:19PM

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

He is actually.Waterford airport was the only regional airport turning a profit in the 80's albeit a small one without a PSO grant. Yet we had every other regional airport reporting profits which included the PSO's in their financial statements.Remove the PSO's from all the airports and then see what happens.

Turning a profit in the 80's is relevant today, why? Was all Government investment removed before calculating that profit?

Knock only started in the 80's and it is doing much better than Waterford so that does not really say a lot for Waterford. Waterford is stagnant.

Aer Arann has a high level of dependency on PSO's. Waterford is dependent on Aer Arann. Guess what happens when all the PSO's are pulled?

Waterford is a useless pipedream of an airport. The only difference between it and this midlands airport is that it managed to sneak into existence. Don't let that fool you into thinking it is worthwhile. It should be discarded and proper transport links provided to Dublin and Cork Airports

Judgement Day · 10-09-2009 07:28PM

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

He is actually.Waterford airport was the only regional airport turning a profit in the 80's albeit a small one without a PSO grant. Yet we had every other regional airport reporting profits which included the PSO's in their financial statements.Remove the PSO's from all the airports and then see what happens.

Isn't Waterford Airport the one that lost its only scheduled service just after Albert Reynolds (?) opened a new terminal building. Truth is in the last big recession I think only Shannon and Dublin were being considered for retention. There are far too many airports in Ireland already and the only reason that they are there at all is the attempt to ape everything the USA does be it road or airports.

Bodan · 10-09-2009 10:38PM

If this were to open, i think it will be Ryanairs new Dublin hub.

(apologies if this has been said already)

fuzzy dunlop · 13-09-2009 12:14AM

gunbarrel wrote: »

Turning a profit in the 80's is relevant today, why? Was all Government investment removed before calculating that profit?

Knock only started in the 80's and it is doing much better than Waterford so that does not really say a lot for Waterford. Waterford is stagnant.

Aer Arann has a high level of dependency on PSO's. Waterford is dependent on Aer Arann. Guess what happens when all the PSO's are pulled?

Waterford is a useless pipedream of an airport. The only difference between it and this midlands airport is that it managed to sneak into existence. Don't let that fool you into thinking it is worthwhile. It should be discarded and proper transport links provided to Dublin and Cork Airports

The only reason Knock is doing much better than Waterford is because of the Government subsidies it has received in one form or the other since its inception.It certainly isn't because it is more viable.The performance of the airport in the 80's is relevant because it had no central government funding.That was my point.The only reason the other regional airports were profitable was because of tyhe PSO scam which Waterford never qualified for under EU rules.Again the situation with Aer Arann is as it is now but may not have been the case but for the PSO's.The PSO's that Sligo,Knock,Kerry etc benefitted from were in effect anti-competitive. Other airlines used the airport without the PSO's and Ryanair managed to launch it's business out of there.

gunbarrel · 13-09-2009 01:42PM

fuzzy dunlop wrote: »

The only reason Knock is doing much better than Waterford is because of the Government subsidies it has received in one form or the other since its inception.

Are you honestly trying to suggest that Waterford airport has not received any form of funding from the Government?

It certainly isn't because it is more viable.

Define viable?

Ireland West Airport Knock's latest travel figures reveal that a total of 629,000 passengers used the airport in 2008, up 73,000, or 13%, on the previous year. This made 2008 the busiest year ever for the Co Mayo airport.

http://http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0105/knock.html

Waterford Airport has reported a 25% increase in the number of passengers that passed through its gates last year.

The airport says it facilitated a total of around 144,000 passengers during 2008.

http://http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2009/01/13/story394304.asp

That is almost 5 times as many passengers using Knock, that is more viable.

The performance of the airport in the 80's is relevant because it had no central government funding.

Waterford Crystal was doing alright during the 80's. Try telling those workers that that is relevant today.

That was my point.The only reason the other regional airports were profitable was because of tyhe PSO scam which Waterford never qualified for under EU rules.

Waterford did not qualify direclty but it does qualify indirectly. It is totally dependent on Aer Arann which is largely dependent on the PSO system. FYI Knock is not dependent on the PSO system, it only forms 2.5% of its business. For more of a response to your argument read the following:

http://http://www.irelandwestairport.com/utility/news_details.aspx?id=169

Again the situation with Aer Arann is as it is now but may not have been the case but for the PSO's.The PSO's that Sligo,Knock,Kerry etc benefitted from were in effect anti-competitive.

Now you are just having a pathetic whinge. The PSO's have played a large role in developing Aer Arann which is the only airline that can be bothered with Waterford Airport, so Waterford Airport has benefitted from the PSO's. No Aer Arann, No Waterford Airport.

You seem to want to overlook the reason why Waterford Airport cannot get PSO's i.e. it is near enough to Dublin and Cork not to need such a flight (though I dont believe that there should be such flights in Ireland), which means that it is near enough to use their airports. Waterford Airport is an unnecessary waste of space and money. It should be cut along with Sligo and Donegal and all necessary steps should be taken to ensure that the Midlands does not get an airport as it would be another giant waste of money.

Other airlines used the airport without the PSO's and Ryanair managed to launch it's business out of there.

And where are they now? It seems that these airlines find Waterford to be unviable, otherwise they would still be there.

veryangryman · 04-01-2010 10:52AM

O Leary was in touch with one of the local papers this week about the airports viability.

Mentioned that there is no population base there, pointing out that there are 10 million people in Bristol area.

Am i the only one who spotted the stupid figure in the article. Nothing sums up a lazy journalist like an figure like that going in there.

I dont think theres any harm having flights from the likes of Donegal/Waterford/Sligo/Kerry to Dublin. If i happened to live in such barren areas, i wouldnt fancy the long drive if needed to travel to the cap city

markpb · 04-01-2010 10:59AM

veryangryman wrote: »

I dont think theres any harm having flights from the likes of Donegal/Waterford/Sligo/Kerry to Dublin. If i happened to live in such barren areas, i wouldnt fancy the long drive if needed to travel to the cap city

The problem is that I doubt you'd be willing to pay the full economic cost of those short flights so the state would have to pay part of the cost of the building the airport, prop up the loss the airport would probably make (because of the limited number of flights, people would still have to use the others) and then discount the cost of your flights to get you to use them. Luckily, the EU would stop the government paying PSO levies for most of those flights because they're so short otherwise the parish pump politics would take over.

In fact, this country is so messed up, we pay Ryanair more (per passenger) to fly from Kerry to Dublin than we pay to Irish Rail to operate the same train service even though the train is more efficient, carries more people and is more environmentally friendly (which means less fines for breaching carbon limits).

L1011 · 04-01-2010 07:32PM

veryangryman wrote: »

I dont think theres any harm having flights from the likes of Donegal/Waterford/Sligo/Kerry to Dublin. If i happened to live in such barren areas, i wouldnt fancy the long drive if needed to travel to the cap city

It'd already be faster to drive from Waterford CC to Dublin CC than drive south to Waterford Airport, get a plane up, and get a bus/taxi in from Dublin Airport.

Add in the next 30mins saving on the M9 this year and the route becomes irrelevant.

Sligo is also a waste, even as it stands. The next planned improvement to that route will result in there being DC from Heuston to Carrick on Shannon...

Bards · 04-01-2010 07:35PM

MYOB wrote: »

It'd already be faster to drive from Waterford CC to Dublin CC than drive south to Waterford Airport, get a plane up, and get a bus/taxi in from Dublin Airport.

Add in the next 30mins saving on the M9 this year and the route becomes irrelevant.

Sligo is also a waste, even as it stands. The next planned improvement to that route will result in there being DC from Heuston to Carrick on Shannon...

There is no PSO or any route from Waterford to Dublin.

All Flights out of Waterford are International and do not carry a PSO subsidy

invincibleirish · 04-01-2010 08:12PM

veryangryman wrote: »

O Leary was in touch with one of the local papers this week about the airports viability.

Mentioned that there is no population base there, pointing out that there are 10 million people in Bristol area.

Am i the only one who spotted the stupid figure in the article. Nothing sums up a lazy journalist like an figure like that going in there.

South West England - 5m people
South Wales - 1.5m people (approx)
Southern end of the West Midlands - 2m people (approx)

He might be padding it out with the 10m qoute but there is zero comparison between the very rural Irish midlands and Bristol airports theoretical catchment area.

veryangryman wrote: »

I dont think theres any harm having flights from the likes of Donegal/Waterford/Sligo/Kerry to Dublin. If i happened to live in such barren areas, i wouldnt fancy the long drive if needed to travel to the cap city

Indeed, this is why i campaign for the establishment of a West Cork airport, i don't fancy the long drive to Dublin or Cork either, airports for all!. All i need is a sympathetic local TD to get into the DoT to get me a runway and a PSO and we're in business.

L1011 · 04-01-2010 08:39PM

Bards wrote: »

There is no PSO or any route from Waterford to Dublin.

All Flights out of Waterford are International and do not carry a PSO subsidy

Wasn't aware there was no Dublin route but, erm, Galway? International?

Baboushka · 05-01-2010 03:52PM

invincibleirish wrote: »

South West England - 5m people
South Wales - 1.5m people (approx)
Southern end of the West Midlands - 2m people (approx)

He might be padding it out with the 10m qoute but there is zero comparison between the very rural Irish midlands and Bristol airports theoretical catchment area.

Indeed, this is why i campaign for the establishment of a West Cork airport, i don't fancy the long drive to Dublin or Cork either, airports for all!. All i need is a sympathetic local TD to get into the DoT to get me a runway and a PSO and we're in business.

Dont give up on that dream, it may yet happen.

I agree with most of your point, but I have lived in Bristol and people from any part of the West Midlands are far more likely to use Birmingham as it has a much greater variety of flights. In fact people from Bristol have been known to use Birmingham as they couldn't get the necessary flights.

All in all, the realistic catchment area for Bristol is no higher than 2.5 million which still outweighs any potential Midlands airport by a considerable amount.

Midlands airport can be summed up by the famous old saying "If you build it, they wont come"

veryangryman · 05-01-2010 04:06PM

Baboushka wrote: »

Dont give up on that dream, it may yet happen.

I agree with most of your point, but I have lived in Bristol and people from any part of the West Midlands are far more likely to use Birmingham as it has a much greater variety of flights. In fact people from Bristol have been known to use Birmingham as they couldn't get the necessary flights.

All in all, the realistic catchment area for Bristol is no higher than 2.5 million which still outweighs any potential Midlands airport by a considerable amount.

Midlands airport can be summed up by the famous old saying "If you build it, they wont come"

Your point above assumes that this airport will also have feck all destinations. Consider the following: The costs of running an airport in the midlands would be much less than in Dublin, so the Ryanairs may very well call the airport "Dublin-Horseleap" or similar. It will also give them alot of negotiation power with the DAA now that there is competition in the marketplace. O Leary has said he wont touch such airport, but i find that inconsistent with his threats to move Shannon flights to Knock and Cork flights to Kerry.

Yes alot of stuff would have to happen for all this to work, but im just saying that its not a complete pipedream now that the midlands has some sort of infrastructure network

dowlingm · 05-01-2010 04:11PM

Airports require huge amounts of land and hundreds of millions of euro in both direct costs (terminals, runways, hangars, fuel stores) and indirect costs (roads to bring people to it). We have enough of them already. Why build more?

What the proponents of this plan have to show is what number of people is insufficiently served (and how "insufficiently served" is defined) either by existing airports or by refitting existing facilities in more convenient locations such as Baldonnel.

Baboushka · 05-01-2010 04:42PM

veryangryman wrote: »

Your point above assumes that this airport will also have feck all destinations.

Which, considering Ireland and Europe's biggest airline have said that they will have nothing to do with it, is a very realistic assumption on my part.

Consider the following: The costs of running an airport in the midlands would be much less than in Dublin, so the Ryanairs may very well call the airport "Dublin-Horseleap" or similar.

Ah yes, lets play that old game "lets pretend that Michael O'Leary, has not said what he has actually said". That's a great game.

O'Leary has made it clear that Ryanair has no interest in such an airport, accept it.

It will also give them alot of negotiation power with the DAA now that there is competition in the marketplace.

Dont you mean would? Or do you know something that the rest of us dont?

O Leary has said he wont touch such airport, but i find that inconsistent with his threats to move Shannon flights to Knock and Cork flights to Kerry.

So you know Michael better than Michael does? Have you informed him of this?

Yes alot of stuff would have to happen for all this to work, but im just saying that its not a complete pipedream now that the midlands has some sort of infrastructure network

If you are happy to believe that then fair play to you. I dont care as long as my country's money is not wasted on yet another pointless airport.

johnk1090 · 09-01-2010 01:07AM

this airport in midlands between tubber and horsleep . logical thinking best place for airoport of its size . it is centeral to every county .by chatting to landowner who knows more about it .it is more comercial than passenger .there is new motor way dub galway .new road proposed to replace n 52 ,there is planning permission for hotels got in kilbeggan,clara and tulamore ,pleanty green feilds to build neccessory warehouses ,etc

and not many houses in that area where airport proposed .

Midlands International Airport: Good idea or not?

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