DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

04-05-2009 01:03PM

Elmo wrote: »

Should a public body lose money for purely altruistic needs?

It's allowed.
Think HSE..

Elmo · 04-05-2009 01:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's allowed.
Think HSE..

Oh and here was me think that the Ideological view of Minister Harney was that of Public-Private Partnership. I guess the public side is the only altruistic part of that partnership, the private part just makes sure its shareholders and banks are happy.

Also it is wrong to even consider the communications sector like the Health sector.

04-05-2009 02:34PM

it's public.

Elmo · 04-05-2009 02:41PM

Deleted User wrote: »

it's public.

Yes but you can't and shouldn't compare the Health system in any country to other forms of industry. Health is a different animal and often what has happened right across the world has been the insistence of people to place commercial economic into health services, it hasn't worked in any country. The pay off for a healthy work force/public is far greater then a commercial businesses access to DTT. (Lets not take this down a different topic)

RTÉ are also a commercial entity just in the same way as the ESB are a commercial entity, the ESB aren't going to go and invest money in their International business unless it shows some form of potential. RTÉ CEL are in the same position.

04-05-2009 05:29PM

HSE charge VHI/Quinn/aviva for beds.
Thats commercial.

Elmo · 04-05-2009 06:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

HSE charge VHI/Quinn/aviva for beds.
Thats commercial.

The HSE have to be paid for beds, the also get money from the government for private beds just as private schools get money from the government.

VHI are a public body should they be treated differently to Quinn or Hibernian? Should they take the risk of older people and older customers? VHI and RTÉ might have more of a relationship then RTÉ and the HSE.

04-05-2009 09:43PM

So RTÉ should lose money for altruistic reasons then in your view?

I'd agree with Watty-One vision will give up after a while.
All that will be wasted there is more time.

Sometimes I wish I was dictator and then I'd impose the psb service with the UK 5 added on courtesy of a transparent cumpulsary fiver or tenner added on to the licence fee.

T'wud put an end to all the unnecessary nonsense.

Mind you...theres civil service quango jobs to be justified...they'd be needing reams of paperwork to get through and the like to justify their presence.. :rolleyes:

Elmo · 04-05-2009 10:29PM

Deleted User wrote: »

So RTÉ should lose money for altruistic reasons then in your view?

No unlike you I do not believe that RTÉ should lose money for altruistic reasons in the same way I do not believe the VHI (a public health insurance company) should lose money for altruistic reason.

However the HSE should balance its books to insure it can afford to continue with the services it provides, just in the same way government should balance their books. HSE is a public body not a semi state company.

Sometimes I wish I was dictator and then I'd impose the psb service with the UK 5 added on courtesy of a transparent cumpulsary fiver or tenner added on to the licence fee.

If I was dictator I would go to the Freeview service providers and ask them to provide the 4 Irish channels on Freeview in NI in return for providing the 4 NI channels in ROI. i.e. BBC 1, 2, UTV and Channel 4. I really wouldn't see the need for another TV3 from five (a commercial service) what a waste of space. No increase required for the license fee which won't be increase due to the decrease in funding for TG4 this year. Also this would come under the Good Friday Agreement. I would also issue new license for new services (all must carries) coming from Ireland, so that Ireland can have some kind of TV competition. Of course by talking to people and creating competition makes me less of a dictator.

five I would rather Sky Three! absolutely no need for that service.

Capt'n Midnight · 04-05-2009 10:35PM

Deleted User wrote:

Sometimes I wish I was dictator and then I'd impose the psb service with the UK 5 added on courtesy of a transparent cumpulsary fiver or tenner added on to the licence fee.

T'wud put an end to all the unnecessary nonsense.

actually how much would that cost, especially since the rights holders have already been paid by the UK ?

and would SKY / UPC pass on the reduced cost ?

Then again top up TV starts at £7 per month, call it a tenner in older money so FTA satellite isn't that much more expensive after a year. http://www.topuptv.com/buynow/

Elmo · 04-05-2009 10:50PM

To make it transparent you could always have encrypted services with the licence fee provided on a FTV card with the 4 NI channels and perhaps S4C lol. I wait the back lash. hehehehe.

Oh! and to make it totally transparent you would need at least 2 Government Inter-party committees, one looking into the filth coming from BBC 2 and C4 while the other discusses the idea of getting rid of the license fee altogether. And then a quango to over see the the full implementation of the NI service across the 26 counties. I suppose I would have to charge a fiver for that.

05-05-2009 12:12AM

Five I reckon would be quite popular as part of a 10 channel DTT line up with the fiver or tenner added on to the licence to cover the cost.

Regarding RTE losing money,I didn't express a view that it should.
It should work within budget.
It usually does actually doesn't it.
Last years loss took it kind of by surprise much like the causes of it took us all by surprise to be honest.

To be fair to RTE,it's costs are pretty much committed in such a way as to have made it impossible for it not to have shown the bad effects of the unexpected rapid economic downturn.
Hindsight is unfair to it in that respect.

However,I do think,it was either deliberately being obtrusive in persisting with the €20 mill demand for the DTT tx deposit or silly.
That might have been a reasonable request had the negotiations been done in 2006 but way ott for the reality of late '08 and 09.

It would have been more pragmatic to include a clause in the rent to secure a relative increase in future profits should the economy turn around.
But then maybe RTE wanted to steer us into they being the operator and not anyone else.
Frankly if the government had any sense,they'd have steered the whole thing that way anyway.

Instead what we got was this farce of a process under the lunatic premise of [D4 accent] " oh my gawd but we must have a tender for this..."[/D4].

Wooly attitudes and lack of common sense mess up a lot of things effeciency wise in this country unfortunately and this is no different.

Elmo · 05-05-2009 09:10AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Five I reckon would be quite popular as part of a 10 channel DTT line up with the fiver or tenner added on to the licence to cover the cost.

Sure someone could set up a similar Irish station, let an Irish service take the advertising revenue which could employee people, even if it is only in sales.

There are plenty of similar channels that would just be as popular as FIVE coming from the England I don't see the reasoning behind providing one commercial English service over another or even supporting a home grown service.

Last years loss took it kind of by surprise much like the causes of it took us all by surprise to be honest.

They haven't announced a loss for 2008 they have forecast a loss or losses in Advertising Revenue for 2009. But their annual report for 2008 could show losses.

Instead what we got was this farce of a process under the lunatic premise of [D4 accent] " oh my gawd but we must have a tender for this..."[/D4].

Possible said in French since I am sure the EU have rules about these things. Deregulation and all that. We do have to run a country. Perhaps OfCom should take over the process because they got it so right in the past. (and yet we want to copy them!!!!!) Did any country get it right? Oh! Sweden, who used a semi-state body to role out their DTT and then just switched off Analogue forcing people to sign up for BOXER, no wonder they gained an audience in the last 3 years, and the swedes weren't happy I suppose you can't please everyone no matter what you do.

Mossy Monk · 05-05-2009 10:28AM

Elmo wrote: »

five I would rather Sky Three! absolutely no need for that service.

five is quite popular in my house. They show some fine programming.

Elmo · 05-05-2009 10:51AM

Mossy Monk wrote: »

five is quite popular in my house. They show some fine programming.

What CSI, CSI NY, CSI Miami, Neighbours, Home and Away, etc etc all of which are available on Irish channels or other English channels already. Oh I suppose they have the some soccer matches.

What is different about Five?

Tonight on Five, Living, RTÉ TWO, 3E

18:00 Home and Away (Soap) RTÉ TWO

18:30 Zoo Days (Documentary)

18:55 Party Election Broadcast (Political)

19:00 Five News at 7 (News) (Sky News)

19:30 Highland Emergency (Documentary)

20:00 Revealed (History Documentary)

21:00 CSI: Crime Scene Investigation (Drama) (RTÉ TWO, LIVING, 3E)

22:00 CSI: Miami (Drama) (RTÉ TWO, LIVING, 3E)

23:00 CSI: New York (Drama) (RTÉ TWO, LIVING, 3E)

Mossy Monk · 05-05-2009 11:33AM

Other English channels yes if you have pay tv. 3e is also not a free channel. Why show anything on any channel that is shown elsewhere on free tv or subscription tv

Elmo · 05-05-2009 11:54AM

Mossy Monk wrote: »

Other English channels yes if you have pay tv. 3e is also not a free channel. Why show anything on any channel that is shown elsewhere on free tv or subscription tv

DAVE would actually give more choice since RTÉ TWO and TV3 provide most of the shows that FIVE provide. I was suggesting that they provide 3e FTA as part of that extra fiver

The Cush · 09-05-2009 07:42AM

From todays Irish Independent

One Vision tipped to win licence for latest paid-for TV

By Laura Noonan
Saturday May 09 2009

THE broadcasting regulator is expected to formally award the licence for the next generation of paid-for TV to the One Vision consortium early next week.

The development will come as a major relief to the regulator, which was severely wrong-footed by Boxer DTT's recent decision to walk away from the project it pledged to invest €165m in last summer.

Next week's anticipated announcement follows a meeting between all four parties in the One Vision consortium and Broadcasting Commission of Ireland (BCI) bosses on Tuesday.

At the meeting, TV3, Setanta, Eircom and UK broadcasting company Arqiva all told the BCI they remained willing and able to role out the new technology.

Notes on the meeting have now been sent to the BCI's directors ahead of their regular board meeting on Monday morning.

Negotiations

Barring any objections from board members, the commission is expected to formally award the contract to One Vision late on Monday or early on Tuesday and begin detailed negotiations. The contract will give One Vision control of the commercial side of the new Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) platform, which will eventually replace terrestrial television.

State broadcaster RTE is in charge of the public service part of DTT, and its networks arm RTENL will look after the technology. Difficulties in agreeing terms with RTENL were cited as a reason for Boxer DTT's withdrawal from the project, coupled with the changed "economic circumstances".

Monday's BCI board meeting is also scheduled to revisit the "ownership and control" of Denis O'Brien's radio group Communicorp.

Last July, the BCI concluded that Mr O'Brien's then stake of 25pc in Independent News & Media (IN&M) coupled with his radio interests did not present any cross-media ownership issues. At the time, Mr O'Brien who now owns 26.1pc in IN&M, had no influence on the board of INM.

Three new directors have since been appointed to the board prompting the BCI to revisit the issue.

watty · 09-05-2009 10:11AM

Getting awarded doesn't mean they will sign or rollout or ever make a profit.

There are strategic Corporate advantages to getting awarded such a contract but later finding a reason to not go ahead. (But we have seen that last year).

09-05-2009 10:12AM

If that goes ahead... "fools and their money..." etc.
I suppose the BCI don't care as long as the cheque for their dtt commission licence fee doesn't bounce...
There is one isn't there? That can be the only logic right?
BCI must at least break even right?

Elmo · 09-05-2009 10:58AM

Deleted User wrote: »

If that goes ahead... "fools and their money..." etc.
I suppose the BCI don't care as long as the cheque for their dtt commission licence fee doesn't bounce...
There is one isn't there? That can be the only logic right?
BCI must at least break even right?

How much will One Vision Pay for the license?

watty · 09-05-2009 11:07AM

Example
Comreg are a Regulator. So logically they should not be a tax gatherer or make a profit. Taxes should be gathered by The Revenue Commissioners.
Comreg forwards about €70M++ to the Finance Dept, I think.

BCI License? I don't know. It's the least of Onevision's problems.
No Doubt the Government see BCI also as a Tax Gatherer rather than regulating for the good of the Consumer and the State.

Onevision Costs:

License (BCI)
Call Centre new Sales only (inc office space and gear)
Call Centre (Post sales Subscription/card support, inc office space + gear)
Free phone charges by eircom or other.
Advertising
Subsidy of boxes/cams/install
Cost of encryption licence per channel (Better encryption = higher cost)
Cost of Viewing Cards
Royalties to FTA channel providers (BBC, ITV etc)
Subscriber quantity + fixed charge p.a. based rights payments (Sky Sports, Discovery etc).
PPV charges (based on number of sales)
Staff, Managers etc
Once off Content capture / re-encoding CAPEX costs (if any)
Head end/encoder rental
Distribution costs to Transmitter Sites
Rental of Transmitter sites and Mast space.
Rental or lease of feed cables, aerials, transmitters
Electricity bills for all the megawatts of power. (not related directly to aerial EIRP).
Servers, Software licenses etc for Card Services, Customer Databases etc.

It's likely at least 20Million a year just for Items 14 to 18. Using RTENL is a lot cheaper for them than the interest on CapEx of doing it themselves.

3. Advertising needs to be Millions.

Pay TV components:
2, 5, 6, 8 is very expensive. maybe over 10M, depending on how big a Call center and how many DECENT payTV channels there are.

Sales, Staff and Management inc Office accommodation and wages/taxes is about 10 Million P.A.

If I was RTENL, I'd stick to wanting a €20M deposit. At least that way when it goes bust owing money to everyone above they'll have been paid for the 1st year.

Onevision Revenue:

Basic Card (no monthly subscription) for channels that are free on Satellite. Breaks Even or makes a loss as loss leader to get boxes with CAMs in the market
Subscription: See costs of Premium channels.
PPV: Small profit as Sky etc take most of the money.

Market:

800,000+ households that already have Multichannel TV (Sky, UPC, Casey, Freesat/FTA/non-sub-Sky and some Freeview)
Less than 250,000 households most of whom don't want payTV ever, or they would have it already.

Profit before Tax
Assume 100,000 subscribers at 20 Eur per month = 24 Million Euro
Assume costs of that is 20 + 10 +10 as above. Neglect Advertising, License cost and other costs not estimated: = 40 Million Euro
Profit = - 16 Million. i.e. a LOSS

Note that costs rise as customers added. About €35M worth p.a. fixed overhead.
I think about 75 million revenue / 320 K customers (actual real subscribers, not just people pay annual charge for the FTV channels that are free altogether on Satellite) is needed to break even.

I can't see how the limited proposition of pay DTT can get over 50,000 customers, never mind over 300,000. (Real customers, not the annual card charge FTV scam fake subscribers to make the takeup look good and ensure the majority of boxes/TVs have CAMs)

If it goes ahead they will give it two years and then close with about 25M to 50M loss.

Elmo · 09-05-2009 11:46AM

watty wrote: »

Comreg are a Regulator. So logically they should not be a tax gatherer or make a profit. Taxes should be gathered by Inland revenue.

Comreg forwards about €70M++ to the Finance Dept, I think.

No Doubt the Government see BCI also as a Tax Gatherer rather than regulating for the good of the Consumer and the State.

I assume you mean The Revenue Commissioners

Comreg aren't regulating this they regulate BCI to carry out the work, the BCI (a regulator) is regulated by ComReg and in turn the BCI regulate RTENL and OneVision. Thanks for the breakdown. (I am being backward on purpose).

But I was asking how much will OneVision pay for the License not the costs involved.

Onevision Costs:

What an awful lot of waste

nothing new, why not just set up a new cable company and run it off UPCs cable/mmds network?

givecredit · 09-05-2009 11:52AM

A lot of very negative posting going on here..Lets look at the positives if any.

Call Centre, Managers Staff etc are already in place. Im sure Setanta call centre staff could manage the extra work load. And probably delighted to get the work..

Recessionary times have some positives for pay tv. Many more people staying at home in the evenings instead of going out. Like sky say

"Stay at home and go to the movies"

watty · 09-05-2009 11:59AM

Those would be the Onevison costs. Existing Setanta Staff and Call centre isn't relevent and doesn't save them money. If Setanta was used they would charge Onevison.

NDS and Sky have same owners. But Sky's profits are less the cost of paying NDS for encryption.

In the case of Tara TV (part owned by RTE), RTE insisted on pulling the plug as Tara had not paid full amount for content to RTE.

This is the way the Corporate world works. It doesn't matter who the owners of Onevision are, all the resources will be charged and go through the books. It will be a separate legal entity. Given that a significant amount of charges/costs may indeed be to companies owned by the owners of Onevison you can see why outsiders like RTENL want deposits.

Elmo · 09-05-2009 04:29PM

givecredit wrote: »

Recessionary times have some positives for pay tv. Many more people staying at home in the evenings instead of going out. Like sky say

"Stay at home and go to the movies"

Or as the BBC put it "Staying in is the new Going out" get a Satellite

a bientot · 09-05-2009 05:30PM

Koloman wrote: »

It seems that some people are upset over the decision of Boxer to pull out.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/boxers-knockout-blow-leaves-digital-tv-on-the-ropes-1720326.html

The Sunday Independent (26 April 09) seems to have removed this article.....

It should be a lesson to us .. always download because it may not be there 'tomorrow'........

watty · 09-05-2009 06:48PM

There is always the Wayback machine at www.archive.org

Folks that REALLY are trying to not just download the whole internet but multiple copies too

It was a very poor inaccurate article. You didn't miss much.

The Cush · 09-05-2009 10:35PM

Elmo wrote: »

How much will One Vision Pay for the license?

The Annual Licence Fee per multiplex issued by ComReg to RTÉ and the BCI for the 12 year duration is

Annual licence fees with phased implementation in the start up phase of DTT, including a 50% discount in the early years of the DTT licences, with the following structure:-

Initial annual licence fees of €57,000 in the period from the award of the DTT licences up to 1 July 2012;

Thereafter, an annual licence fee of €114,000 indexed to inflation, using CPI, for the remainder of the licence period;

The first indexation will take place with effect from 1 July 2013 based on the increase, if any, in CPI in the period 1 July 2012 to 30 June 2013.

Elmo wrote: »

Comreg aren't regulating this they regulate BCI to carry out the work, the BCI (a regulator) is regulated by ComReg and in turn the BCI regulate RTENL and OneVision. Thanks for the breakdown. (I am being backward on purpose).

The Broadcasting (Amendment) Act 2007 tasks ComReg with issuing multiplex licences to RTÉ and the BCI and to charge the licensees a fee. The BCI then issue their licences for a period of up to 12 years.

Elmo · 10-05-2009 10:15AM

The Cush wrote: »

The Licence Fee per multiplex issued by ComReg to RTÉ and the BCI for the 12 year duration is

The Broadcasting (Amendment) Act 2007 tasks ComReg with issuing multiplex licences to RTÉ and the BCI and to charge the licensees a fee. The BCI then issue their licences for a period of up to 12 years.

The license is nothing. A one off payment, it should be yearly and put into the BCI's broadcasting fund.

I was being backward. :rolleyes:

The Cush · 10-05-2009 06:10PM

Elmo wrote: »

The license is nothing. A one off payment, it should be yearly and put into the BCI's broadcasting fund.

I was being backward. :rolleyes:

Sorry I wasn't clear, its an annual licence fee but still pretty small.

DTT Commercial Multiplexes (was OneVision, Boxer etc...)

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