Caught between a rock and a hard place

LegacyUser · 04-05-2009 08:09PM #1

Me and my girlfriend are both ardent atheists, never having much time for religion and the like. This may have been strengthened by the fact that both our parents are extremely religious and so we had it rammed down our throat as children. We had our first child in December and thus far it has been going great, until recently. We had decided between ourselves well in advance that we would raise the child in a secular ethos and let her make her own decisions about religion when she reached adolescence. As such we have not, nor do we plan to baptize her.

As our parents, particularly our mothers are religious we tried to avoid telling them about this, but unfortunately my mother was around last week and asked us when we planned to baptize the child. We told her the truth and she was mortified, pretty much begging us to allow her to take the child to do it in the Church. We turned her down and explained our reasons, and when she got home she was straight on to my girlfriends mother about it, resulting in a constant barrage of emotional pleading from the two of them. It is really starting to put a strain on both our relationship to our mothers, and even our relationship with each other as my girlfriend has recently suggested that we let them do it. Her logic was that since we don't believe in it anyway, what harm could it be to allow the priest to splash a little water over her head for the sake of pleasing our mothers. For my part I am still not happy to do that, and the issue turned into a minor argument.

I'm starting to wonder whether I was wrong and maybe she has the right course of action. I do love my mother and am starting to feel that a baptism is a small price to pay for my daughter to have a normal relationship with her grandmother (something that is unlikely to happen if I don't let it happen if this week is anything to go by). Was looking for an outside opinion as to whether ye think I should relent for the sake of peace. Thanks for reading

SarahMc · 04-05-2009 08:58PM

Indecisive wrote: »

I do love my mother and am starting to feel that a baptism is a small price to pay for my daughter to have a normal relationship with her grandmother (something that is unlikely to happen if I don't let it happen if this week is anything to go by).

This is worrying. Normally it is just a weighing up how ardently atheist you are v keeping the peace - but what has your mother threatened to do/not do?

Is she is so entrenched that she is threatening not to continue to see her grandchild, or that her love will be somehow diminished by the fact the child will be unbaptised?

LegacyUser · 04-05-2009 09:06PM

Well on a purely pratical level it might be very helpful in getting into better schools if your child was baptized...

Final Approach · 04-05-2009 09:34PM

My personal opinion is no, I do not think that you should relent for the sake of peace.

Both my Girlfriend and I are atheists also and are planning to start a family within the next two years. I know that both our mothers will respect our decision to raise our child/children as you describe i.e. not have them baptized etc. as we have spoke about it and they are cool with it.

I think that it is your decision and yours alone, and to be quite honest I think it's somewhat disrespectful of both your parents to try and persaude you to baptise your child when you obviously dont believe in it. Bottom line is that a decision such as this lies with the parents, end of story.

O'Coonassa · 04-05-2009 09:38PM

Er..I'm not an atheist but I sure do being hate manipulated and socially engineered by teh womens. You should stand up for yourself and your kid and lay down the Law IMO.

aoibhebree · 04-05-2009 09:47PM

You know, it's done a lot these days, people just get their kids baptised for the sake of (a) their parents (b) getting into catholic schools (c) it's just what's "done", and it's a nice day out for all involved.

Personally I'd like to say, stick to your guns etc. But I will admit, I'm currently engaged and planning a Catholic wedding even though I haven't been to mass in years. And when we have children, they'll be baptised Catholics, it's just simpler that way. If we didn't, yes there would be hassle from families on both sides, and I'd just prefer to avoid that.

I think that to have faith is a great thing, and it makes life a lot easier - it makes the hard times easier to bear. I'd love my kids to grow up with that, and I'd feel bad if I denied them access to it. If you baptise your daughter, what harm is done - it doesn't mean you have to start believing, and you will still have control over how much the grandparents influence her religious education.

So for the sake of peace and family, I'd say to go and do it. But I know that won't be the popular or politically correct opinion.

djk1000 · 04-05-2009 09:55PM

I think that your attitude to religion (leaving it to your child to decide) is admirable, can I ask if you married in a church? Maybe it's just a bit of a shock to the grandmothers because they always just assumed. I'd suggest that you just set an age at which you feel your child will be old enough to decide and tell the grandmothers this. Maybe you could even explain your reasoning and your views to a modern priest and get him to have a chat with them on your behalf.

Agent J · 04-05-2009 10:00PM

A different tactic would be to ask you mother would she rathered that you disrepected her beliefs and her church by consenting to something in which you do not believe in?

Would she rather you lied with regard to baptism and to bring the child up in the faith in which you have no intention of doing?

Stara · 04-05-2009 10:31PM

I feel for you both on this one and agree with the poster who said that you shouldn't be manipulated by your parents (have they grown up yet into mature adults!!??) I'm a non-practicing but raised catholic and had my son 8 years ago, out of wedlock, on my own and had planned on just having a naming ceremony in my family home back garden. My mum was a bit upset (she's more Catholic than I obviously although she doesn't go to mass) and said why would I do that..it'll make him different to all the other children blah blah..so I relented(it was no real issue to me - I had ideas of how I would be raising him to be an independant thinker anyway). The parish priest was fine, he didn't know me from Adam and we had a nice family day, no big deal on my part at all. I just thought it would help to get him into a good local school when the time came. Eight years later my opinion hasn't changed, my son ended up in the best CoI school near mum's house which he loves and isn't bothered about making his communion as it clashed with his karate lessons. I'm teaching him about all the different types of religion as the questions arise and he learns about treating others as he wants to be treated...it's all worked out and nobody really says anything aobut it. You will probably have lots of issues raised with your mothers about how you raise your child. It sounds as if interfering is in their nature..so prepare for more situations to arise if you don't put your foot down on this issue. Not necessarily about the religious part but more about the fact that you are the parents and are responsible 24/7 for this child, not them. Perhaps they should go and spend some of that energy helping people who really need it and leave you both to do the good job you are capable of doing since they raised you properly. Best of luck..only 20-odd years to go!

04-05-2009 10:34PM

Ok.

Don't be so hard on your parents here folks.
They are fervent believers in this and ,it's not an understatement that see'ing their grand children not baptised will worry them.
It's actually capable of worrying them beyond a point that you two if you are as atheist as your op suggests will understand.

I know my own Mum would be in absolute pain if I had a kid who I did not baptise.
Your principles don't come into it at all.
It shouldn't matter to you as it's only a day out and a splash of water right?
Theres nothing in it at all,it's like Christmas holidays.
How many atheists tell their bosses that they are going into work on Xmas day on a point of principle? Not many I'd say.

So my advice is for the sake of your mums peace of mind-just do it.
You know in your own minds that it means nothing to you and essentially also it is you that is bringing your child up so it's effectively going to absorp your values before it decides at a later stage what it wants to do.

Agent J · 04-05-2009 10:54PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Your principles don't come into it at all.
.

Sorry what? Please tell me that is an over simplification.
How far does that strech with regard to the grandparents?

Should they have to approve the schools their children go to?
Or how about who they marry?
They are grandparents and not parents. Consult, seek advice but the final decision is with the parents until the child is of age.

There is a world of difference between going to a mass on christmas and agreeing for your child to undergo initation into a religion in which you do not believe.

The actual baptism cermony is the parents agreeing to raise the child in the Catholic tradition which they would be lying.

Are you telling me that is a good idea?

Toots · 04-05-2009 11:01PM

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Er..I'm not an atheist but I sure do being hate manipulated and socially engineered by teh womens. You should stand up for yourself and your kid and lay down the Law IMO.

Completely agree with this, although I'd probably replace the word 'womens' with 'religions'. You need to lay down the law with your mothers. This is your child and you will raise her as you see fit. Make it clear that you will not entertain any further 'input' from them on your child's faith. You and your partner both need to be on the same page here, you both made a decision not to baptise your child and you were both happy with it, this should be good enough for your mothers, TBH they're being very selfish here.

This is an issue which I'm likely to face myself when/if my OH and myself have kids (from my MIL not my own mother), and if this situation did arise, I'd have no qualms about saying quite bluntly that if they wish to be involved in their grandchild's life, they need to respect the way in which you choose to raise her and mind their own business. It might seem harsh, but you need to nip this in the bud, otherwise it'll continue for the child's whole life, or until they get their way and have the child baptised.

barongreen · 04-05-2009 11:04PM

my 2 cent is once you baptise your child you are on the path that leads to decisions down the road like communion and confirmation etc. So i d'ont think its right to splash a bit of water to placate the parents. Now your Girl friend wanting to keep the peace is a different thing, that puts you in a tricky postion. You d'ont want to be seen to entrenched or there could be age long scars opened. The other side of the coin could be telling little Johnny/ Mary they cant get there communion with the other kids because Daddy dose'nt like jesus.........
I have a simalar headace waiting around Christmas time as the missus is expecting, are there any out there that have dealt with this situation and have the benifit of hignsight?

Queen-Mise · 04-05-2009 11:26PM

My husband and i are both agnostics. We had the 'idealistic' notion that we weren't going to do the whole baptism etc etc.

And then we hit reality - it really wasn't worth the hassle of all the fighting with the parents. To be honest it really is easier to go with the flow in a far far too Catholic country.

And my second reason for doing it - and this is so awful - god forbid anything ever happening to either child - I wanted them to be with all the rest of past family. Now I know how irrational that is, especially when claiming agnosticism, but there is a comfort in it. I was trying to prevent any potential problems if they had arisen.

I don't mind now - son is in 2nd class, and learning all about the different religions, comes home and tells us that 'Jesus killed God' (don't ask, I didn't get an explanation either), and we give our approach/rearing at home also.

its a double standard I am happy to live with. most definitely the easier path.

Queen-Mise · 04-05-2009 11:28PM

Unregistered wrote: »

Well on a purely pratical level it might be very helpful in getting into better schools if your child was baptized...

Unfortunately this is very, very true. Good point

kraggy · 04-05-2009 11:33PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok.

Don't be so hard on your parents here folks.
They are fervent believers in this and ,it's not an understatement that see'ing their grand children not baptised will worry them.
It's actually capable of worrying them beyond a point that you two if you are as atheist as your op suggests will understand.

I know my own Mum would be in absolute pain if I had a kid who I did not baptise.
Your principles don't come into it at all.
It shouldn't matter to you as it's only a day out and a splash of water right?
Theres nothing in it at all,it's like Christmas holidays.
How many atheists tell their bosses that they are going into work on Xmas day on a point of principle? Not many I'd say.

So my advice is for the sake of your mums peace of mind-just do it.
You know in your own minds that it means nothing to you and essentially also it is you that is bringing your child up so it's effectively going to absorp your values before it decides at a later stage what it wants to do.

Completely disagree. It's the OP's child. Nobody's business but his and his missus'.

As another poster said, it sets a precedent for communion, confirmation etc.

I would not budge on this if I were you OP. It's your decision and yours only. They have no right to interfere.

Arcee · 04-05-2009 11:38PM

Op - It's slightly more than a splash of water involved in the ceremony. Before you make your decision, consider if you will be uncomfortable answering "yes" to the following questions (and others like them) in front of a priest and church full of people.

Do you believe that there is only one God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of all things and the Father of all men?

Do you renounce Satan and all his works?

Do you believe that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ, was made man, was conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into hell, and on the third day rose aain from the dead, ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, and from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead?

Do you believe in and openly profess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

bug · 05-05-2009 12:03AM

Personally, I didn't have catholism rammed down my throat, which is probably why I don't have the adversity to it that some people have.

Ardent atheist views about it make me cringe as much as the ardent ram it down your throat catholics.

To be honest I see it as impressing the views of the adult experiences on the child. Which isn't right either...

For me as a child the whole thing was a rather pleasant experience. Nice stories, all good, jesus only getting angry once, no fear etc.

I can't say today I'm big into the church as an entity itself for various reasons, but the religion isn't a bad one in comparison to what's out there purely from a child learning the difference between right and wrong from stories outide the home.

Anyhow the choice is yours i'm not sure that you even have to be there to be honest if you do decide to placate the mothers', let them find out for you.

If you decide against it, it's really your own choice, your child, and how you choose to raise the child.

LegacyUser · 05-05-2009 12:12AM

Arcee wrote: »

Op - It's slightly more than a splash of water involved in the ceremony. Before you make your decision, consider if you will be uncomfortable answering "yes" to the following questions (and others like them) in front of a priest and church full of people.

Do you believe that there is only one God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of all things and the Father of all men?

Do you renounce Satan and all his works?

Do you believe that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ, was made man, was conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into hell, and on the third day rose aain from the dead, ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, and from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead?

Do you believe in and openly profess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

OP here. You see that's my main sticking point, I would have huge hangups on saying those things, I just don't believe in any of them.

Is she is so entrenched that she is threatening not to continue to see her grandchild, or that her love will be somehow diminished by the fact the child will be unbaptised?

I should have explained, my mother will always love and be a part of her granddaughters life, but this is not an issue that will go away with time. You see in her logic, even when I became an Atheist (don't get me wrong, she was upset) I had been baptized, had my first communion and was confirmed - as far as she is concerned I'm catholic whether I want to be or not, and as long as that is the case there is hope. She would see these rights not just as a religious ceremony but as a parental duty. To her, not getting your child baptized would be akin to deciding not to educate her, and I'm afraid that this stigma might rub off on my daughter when she is old enough to register it.

I think some of the problem with this intrusiveness is a combination of our young age (I'm 19, she is 18. With that said, we live and support ourselves totally independently), and the fact that we are not now, nor plan to get married. Throughout the pregnancy both of our mothers made it clear that they saw this as a sign of immaturity particularly on my part, however the truth is we just don't feel the need to do it. We're in a long term, loving relationship and that is good enough for us.

Thanks for the responses so far

Overheal · 05-05-2009 12:21AM

I'd invite the two mothers and the parish priest down for lunch. Not to berade you, but so that hopefully the priest will talk some live and let live sense into the mammies.

Last thing you want is for the mammies to be minding your child then for you to come back one day and find out it was baptised.

Well on a purely pratical level it might be very helpful in getting into better schools if your child was baptized...

Oh lovely... :mad:

PK2008 · 05-05-2009 12:25AM

You might not believe in god but you should consider believing in the power to grow a pair of balls and stand up for yourself man. Its your kid- end of

Religious people can be accused of alot of things but at least they stand up for their beliefs, you atheists come across as a bit whiney tbh

jhegarty · 05-05-2009 12:29AM

If nothing else think about the school thing. Your principles won't be worth much in 4 years time when you can't get the child into a good school.

wolfpawnat · 05-05-2009 12:36AM

OP seriously, don't just do something to please the parents. 2 reasons I say this,

1. There is a lot involved in the religious upbringing of a child once they are baptised as other posters said, communion/conformation, etc.

2. If you give in to this demand, where will it stop? You wont be able to do anything concerning your daughters life that they disagree with.

Zaph · 05-05-2009 12:40AM

jhegarty wrote: »

If nothing else think about the school thing. Your principles won't be worth much in 4 years time when you can't get the child into a good school.

From what I've heard the Educate Together schools are actually very good

jhegarty · 05-05-2009 12:53AM

Zaph wrote: »

From what I've heard the Educate Together schools are actually very good

But there is very few of them.

Terodil · 05-05-2009 04:34AM

Your mothers have absolutely j* sh* to say about your kid. I would personally say that even YOU don't have j* sh* to say about the beliefs of your kid, but that's just me. The kid should decide in its own time what religion it wants to adhere to, if any, and not be tossed into the clutches of some religion because the (grand)parents find it appropriate. Honestly, for your own sake as well -- do not let yourself be pressurised/blackmailed into something you don't want to do. Your parents have accepted both of you to be secular, why would it be so difficult to do the same with your kids?

zootroid · 05-05-2009 05:13AM

I'd leave the child get baptised, if you don't believe in it then it is only water being splashed over the baby's head. I also think the point about getting into good schools is very relevant.

In my own case, I'm an aetheist. My mother is very religious, and my father sometimes used to bring us to mass when we were kids if we had something on in the morning. Yet when we decided we didn't believe in it and no longer wanted to go, my father not only stopped bringing us, but stopped going himself. Turned out he was only bringing us to keep my mother happy. I don't hold any resentment to how they tried bring me up, and am quiet happy now with my beliefs (or lack of). I think you need to choose your battles. You will be rearing them, so its not as if you'll be bringing them to mass every week. So the child being in a church to receive a sacrament 3 or 4 times during its life isn't that big a deal in my opinion.

Also, if the grandparents were under the impression you weren't raising your kid as they would like to see, they could start trying to teach your kid all about religion as he/she grows, which could lead to friction with yourselves. At least if you give the illusion you are raising your child within the teachings of the church, this might not happen. As I said, you have to pick your battles, you can't win every arguement.

GalwayGunner · 05-05-2009 05:48AM

I sympathise with you on this one. Thanks to the church having a social stranglehold lasting centuries on this country this is one of the unfortunate side effects of our country and society eventually 'growing up' and moving past this influence.

Its a horribly awkward situation but if you and your girlfriend have decided that this is the way you want to rear your child then both sets of grandparents should respect the decision.

Despite my feelings towards the church though I genuinely believe that a religious influence is not necessarily a bad thing for a child. Personally I think its a good thing for a child to have someone bigger to look up to than just his/her parents. It gives comfort to them to know that there is a presence out there that they can rely on and get some sort of comfort from in times of hardship. As they grow up and their minds and personalities develop so that they can think for themselves and decide what they do/don't believe. After all - that's what you and your girlfriend did so why wouldn't your kids??

So to keep the peace I'd say let them be baptised, introduce them to religion, take advantage of the benefits it provides in Irish society (schools) but just don't force it down their throats ;-)

Overheal · 05-05-2009 07:37AM

GalwayGunner wrote: »

So to keep the peace I'd say let them be baptised, introduce them to religion, take advantage of the benefits it provides in Irish society (schools) but just don't force it down their throats ;-)

Conform to Oppression and ideological discrimination. Riiight.

05-05-2009 07:55AM

Agent J wrote: »

Sorry what? Please tell me that is an over simplification.
How far does that strech with regard to the grandparents?

Uhm Grandparents are the parents parents.
The same people without whom the parents wouldn't be around at all for.
The people who nurtured them,loved them and still do and always will.

Tact is required rather than a huge falling out over Nothing.

Should they have to approve the schools their children go to?
Or how about who they marry?

No.

They are grandparents and not parents. Consult, seek advice but the final decision is with the parents until the child is of age.

There is a world of difference between going to a mass on christmas and agreeing for your child to undergo initation into a religion in which you do not believe.

The actual baptism cermony is the parents agreeing to raise the child in the Catholic tradition which they would be lying.

Are you telling me that is a good idea?

Thats rubbish.
In this case they would not be lying,they would be changing their mind.
Simple as.

Theres a whole lot of unnecessary zealous overplay in what you and some others here are saying which is actually rather ironic.

Overheal · 05-05-2009 08:00AM

Cant they just Bless the child without actually baptising it?

Caught between a rock and a hard place

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