Caught between a rock and a hard place

LegacyUser

Me and my girlfriend are both ardent atheists, never having much time for religion and the like. This may have been strengthened by the fact that both our parents are extremely religious and so we had it rammed down our throat as children. We had our first child in December and thus far it has been going great, until recently. We had decided between ourselves well in advance that we would raise the child in a secular ethos and let her make her own decisions about religion when she reached adolescence. As such we have not, nor do we plan to baptize her.

As our parents, particularly our mothers are religious we tried to avoid telling them about this, but unfortunately my mother was around last week and asked us when we planned to baptize the child. We told her the truth and she was mortified, pretty much begging us to allow her to take the child to do it in the Church. We turned her down and explained our reasons, and when she got home she was straight on to my girlfriends mother about it, resulting in a constant barrage of emotional pleading from the two of them. It is really starting to put a strain on both our relationship to our mothers, and even our relationship with each other as my girlfriend has recently suggested that we let them do it. Her logic was that since we don't believe in it anyway, what harm could it be to allow the priest to splash a little water over her head for the sake of pleasing our mothers. For my part I am still not happy to do that, and the issue turned into a minor argument.

I'm starting to wonder whether I was wrong and maybe she has the right course of action. I do love my mother and am starting to feel that a baptism is a small price to pay for my daughter to have a normal relationship with her grandmother (something that is unlikely to happen if I don't let it happen if this week is anything to go by). Was looking for an outside opinion as to whether ye think I should relent for the sake of peace. Thanks for reading

SarahMc

Indecisive wrote: »

I do love my mother and am starting to feel that a baptism is a small price to pay for my daughter to have a normal relationship with her grandmother (something that is unlikely to happen if I don't let it happen if this week is anything to go by).

This is worrying. Normally it is just a weighing up how ardently atheist you are v keeping the peace - but what has your mother threatened to do/not do?

Is she is so entrenched that she is threatening not to continue to see her grandchild, or that her love will be somehow diminished by the fact the child will be unbaptised?

LegacyUser

Well on a purely pratical level it might be very helpful in getting into better schools if your child was baptized...

Final Approach

My personal opinion is no, I do not think that you should relent for the sake of peace.

Both my Girlfriend and I are atheists also and are planning to start a family within the next two years. I know that both our mothers will respect our decision to raise our child/children as you describe i.e. not have them baptized etc. as we have spoke about it and they are cool with it.

I think that it is your decision and yours alone, and to be quite honest I think it's somewhat disrespectful of both your parents to try and persaude you to baptise your child when you obviously dont believe in it. Bottom line is that a decision such as this lies with the parents, end of story.

O'Coonassa

Er..I'm not an atheist but I sure do being hate manipulated and socially engineered by teh womens. You should stand up for yourself and your kid and lay down the Law IMO.

aoibhebree

You know, it's done a lot these days, people just get their kids baptised for the sake of (a) their parents (b) getting into catholic schools (c) it's just what's "done", and it's a nice day out for all involved.

Personally I'd like to say, stick to your guns etc. But I will admit, I'm currently engaged and planning a Catholic wedding even though I haven't been to mass in years. And when we have children, they'll be baptised Catholics, it's just simpler that way. If we didn't, yes there would be hassle from families on both sides, and I'd just prefer to avoid that.

I think that to have faith is a great thing, and it makes life a lot easier - it makes the hard times easier to bear. I'd love my kids to grow up with that, and I'd feel bad if I denied them access to it. If you baptise your daughter, what harm is done - it doesn't mean you have to start believing, and you will still have control over how much the grandparents influence her religious education.

So for the sake of peace and family, I'd say to go and do it. But I know that won't be the popular or politically correct opinion.

djk1000

I think that your attitude to religion (leaving it to your child to decide) is admirable, can I ask if you married in a church? Maybe it's just a bit of a shock to the grandmothers because they always just assumed. I'd suggest that you just set an age at which you feel your child will be old enough to decide and tell the grandmothers this. Maybe you could even explain your reasoning and your views to a modern priest and get him to have a chat with them on your behalf.

Agent J

A different tactic would be to ask you mother would she rathered that you disrepected her beliefs and her church by consenting to something in which you do not believe in?

Would she rather you lied with regard to baptism and to bring the child up in the faith in which you have no intention of doing?

Stara

I feel for you both on this one and agree with the poster who said that you shouldn't be manipulated by your parents (have they grown up yet into mature adults!!??) I'm a non-practicing but raised catholic and had my son 8 years ago, out of wedlock, on my own and had planned on just having a naming ceremony in my family home back garden. My mum was a bit upset (she's more Catholic than I obviously although she doesn't go to mass) and said why would I do that..it'll make him different to all the other children blah blah..so I relented(it was no real issue to me - I had ideas of how I would be raising him to be an independant thinker anyway). The parish priest was fine, he didn't know me from Adam and we had a nice family day, no big deal on my part at all. I just thought it would help to get him into a good local school when the time came. Eight years later my opinion hasn't changed, my son ended up in the best CoI school near mum's house which he loves and isn't bothered about making his communion as it clashed with his karate lessons. I'm teaching him about all the different types of religion as the questions arise and he learns about treating others as he wants to be treated...it's all worked out and nobody really says anything aobut it. You will probably have lots of issues raised with your mothers about how you raise your child. It sounds as if interfering is in their nature..so prepare for more situations to arise if you don't put your foot down on this issue. Not necessarily about the religious part but more about the fact that you are the parents and are responsible 24/7 for this child, not them. Perhaps they should go and spend some of that energy helping people who really need it and leave you both to do the good job you are capable of doing since they raised you properly. Best of luck..only 20-odd years to go!

Ok.

Don't be so hard on your parents here folks.
They are fervent believers in this and ,it's not an understatement that see'ing their grand children not baptised will worry them.
It's actually capable of worrying them beyond a point that you two if you are as atheist as your op suggests will understand.


I know my own Mum would be in absolute pain if I had a kid who I did not baptise.
Your principles don't come into it at all.
It shouldn't matter to you as it's only a day out and a splash of water right?
Theres nothing in it at all,it's like Christmas holidays.
How many atheists tell their bosses that they are going into work on Xmas day on a point of principle? Not many I'd say.

So my advice is for the sake of your mums peace of mind-just do it.
You know in your own minds that it means nothing to you and essentially also it is you that is bringing your child up so it's effectively going to absorp your values before it decides at a later stage what it wants to do.

Agent J

Deleted User wrote: »

Your principles don't come into it at all.
.

Sorry what? Please tell me that is an over simplification.
How far does that strech with regard to the grandparents?

Should they have to approve the schools their children go to?
Or how about who they marry?
They are grandparents and not parents. Consult, seek advice but the final decision is with the parents until the child is of age.

There is a world of difference between going to a mass on christmas and agreeing for your child to undergo initation into a religion in which you do not believe.

The actual baptism cermony is the parents agreeing to raise the child in the Catholic tradition which they would be lying.

Are you telling me that is a good idea?

Toots

O'Coonassa wrote: »

Er..I'm not an atheist but I sure do being hate manipulated and socially engineered by teh womens. You should stand up for yourself and your kid and lay down the Law IMO.

Completely agree with this, although I'd probably replace the word 'womens' with 'religions'. You need to lay down the law with your mothers. This is your child and you will raise her as you see fit. Make it clear that you will not entertain any further 'input' from them on your child's faith. You and your partner both need to be on the same page here, you both made a decision not to baptise your child and you were both happy with it, this should be good enough for your mothers, TBH they're being very selfish here.

This is an issue which I'm likely to face myself when/if my OH and myself have kids (from my MIL not my own mother), and if this situation did arise, I'd have no qualms about saying quite bluntly that if they wish to be involved in their grandchild's life, they need to respect the way in which you choose to raise her and mind their own business. It might seem harsh, but you need to nip this in the bud, otherwise it'll continue for the child's whole life, or until they get their way and have the child baptised.

barongreen

my 2 cent is once you baptise your child you are on the path that leads to decisions down the road like communion and confirmation etc. So i d'ont think its right to splash a bit of water to placate the parents. Now your Girl friend wanting to keep the peace is a different thing, that puts you in a tricky postion. You d'ont want to be seen to entrenched or there could be age long scars opened. The other side of the coin could be telling little Johnny/ Mary they cant get there communion with the other kids because Daddy dose'nt like jesus.........
I have a simalar headace waiting around Christmas time as the missus is expecting, are there any out there that have dealt with this situation and have the benifit of hignsight?

Queen-Mise

My husband and i are both agnostics. We had the 'idealistic' notion that we weren't going to do the whole baptism etc etc.

And then we hit reality - it really wasn't worth the hassle of all the fighting with the parents. To be honest it really is easier to go with the flow in a far far too Catholic country.


And my second reason for doing it - and this is so awful - god forbid anything ever happening to either child - I wanted them to be with all the rest of past family. Now I know how irrational that is, especially when claiming agnosticism, but there is a comfort in it. I was trying to prevent any potential problems if they had arisen.

I don't mind now - son is in 2nd class, and learning all about the different religions, comes home and tells us that 'Jesus killed God' (don't ask, I didn't get an explanation either), and we give our approach/rearing at home also.

its a double standard I am happy to live with. most definitely the easier path.

Queen-Mise

Unregistered wrote: »

Well on a purely pratical level it might be very helpful in getting into better schools if your child was baptized...

Unfortunately this is very, very true. Good point

kraggy

Deleted User wrote: »

Ok.

Don't be so hard on your parents here folks.
They are fervent believers in this and ,it's not an understatement that see'ing their grand children not baptised will worry them.
It's actually capable of worrying them beyond a point that you two if you are as atheist as your op suggests will understand.


I know my own Mum would be in absolute pain if I had a kid who I did not baptise.
Your principles don't come into it at all.
It shouldn't matter to you as it's only a day out and a splash of water right?
Theres nothing in it at all,it's like Christmas holidays.
How many atheists tell their bosses that they are going into work on Xmas day on a point of principle? Not many I'd say.

So my advice is for the sake of your mums peace of mind-just do it.
You know in your own minds that it means nothing to you and essentially also it is you that is bringing your child up so it's effectively going to absorp your values before it decides at a later stage what it wants to do.

Completely disagree. It's the OP's child. Nobody's business but his and his missus'.

As another poster said, it sets a precedent for communion, confirmation etc.

I would not budge on this if I were you OP. It's your decision and yours only. They have no right to interfere.

Arcee

Op - It's slightly more than a splash of water involved in the ceremony. Before you make your decision, consider if you will be uncomfortable answering "yes" to the following questions (and others like them) in front of a priest and church full of people.

Do you believe that there is only one God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of all things and the Father of all men?

Do you renounce Satan and all his works?

Do you believe that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ, was made man, was conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into hell, and on the third day rose aain from the dead, ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, and from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead?

Do you believe in and openly profess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

bug

Personally, I didn't have catholism rammed down my throat, which is probably why I don't have the adversity to it that some people have.

Ardent atheist views about it make me cringe as much as the ardent ram it down your throat catholics.

To be honest I see it as impressing the views of the adult experiences on the child. Which isn't right either...

For me as a child the whole thing was a rather pleasant experience. Nice stories, all good, jesus only getting angry once, no fear etc.

I can't say today I'm big into the church as an entity itself for various reasons, but the religion isn't a bad one in comparison to what's out there purely from a child learning the difference between right and wrong from stories outide the home.

Anyhow the choice is yours i'm not sure that you even have to be there to be honest if you do decide to placate the mothers', let them find out for you.

If you decide against it, it's really your own choice, your child, and how you choose to raise the child.

LegacyUser

Arcee wrote: »

Op - It's slightly more than a splash of water involved in the ceremony. Before you make your decision, consider if you will be uncomfortable answering "yes" to the following questions (and others like them) in front of a priest and church full of people.

Do you believe that there is only one God, the Creator, Preserver and Ruler of all things and the Father of all men?

Do you renounce Satan and all his works?

Do you believe that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Jesus Christ, was made man, was conceived of the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried, descended into hell, and on the third day rose aain from the dead, ascended into heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, and from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead?

Do you believe in and openly profess the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting?

OP here. You see that's my main sticking point, I would have huge hangups on saying those things, I just don't believe in any of them.

Is she is so entrenched that she is threatening not to continue to see her grandchild, or that her love will be somehow diminished by the fact the child will be unbaptised?

I should have explained, my mother will always love and be a part of her granddaughters life, but this is not an issue that will go away with time. You see in her logic, even when I became an Atheist (don't get me wrong, she was upset) I had been baptized, had my first communion and was confirmed - as far as she is concerned I'm catholic whether I want to be or not, and as long as that is the case there is hope. She would see these rights not just as a religious ceremony but as a parental duty. To her, not getting your child baptized would be akin to deciding not to educate her, and I'm afraid that this stigma might rub off on my daughter when she is old enough to register it.

I think some of the problem with this intrusiveness is a combination of our young age (I'm 19, she is 18. With that said, we live and support ourselves totally independently), and the fact that we are not now, nor plan to get married. Throughout the pregnancy both of our mothers made it clear that they saw this as a sign of immaturity particularly on my part, however the truth is we just don't feel the need to do it. We're in a long term, loving relationship and that is good enough for us.

Thanks for the responses so far

Overheal

I'd invite the two mothers and the parish priest down for lunch. Not to berade you, but so that hopefully the priest will talk some live and let live sense into the mammies.

Last thing you want is for the mammies to be minding your child then for you to come back one day and find out it was baptised.

Well on a purely pratical level it might be very helpful in getting into better schools if your child was baptized...

Oh lovely... :mad:

PK2008

You might not believe in god but you should consider believing in the power to grow a pair of balls and stand up for yourself man. Its your kid- end of

Religious people can be accused of alot of things but at least they stand up for their beliefs, you atheists come across as a bit whiney tbh

jhegarty

If nothing else think about the school thing. Your principles won't be worth much in 4 years time when you can't get the child into a good school.

wolfpawnat

OP seriously, don't just do something to please the parents. 2 reasons I say this,

1. There is a lot involved in the religious upbringing of a child once they are baptised as other posters said, communion/conformation, etc.

2. If you give in to this demand, where will it stop? You wont be able to do anything concerning your daughters life that they disagree with.

Zaph

jhegarty wrote: »

If nothing else think about the school thing. Your principles won't be worth much in 4 years time when you can't get the child into a good school.

From what I've heard the Educate Together schools are actually very good

jhegarty

Zaph wrote: »

From what I've heard the Educate Together schools are actually very good

But there is very few of them.

Terodil

Your mothers have absolutely j* sh* to say about your kid. I would personally say that even YOU don't have j* sh* to say about the beliefs of your kid, but that's just me. The kid should decide in its own time what religion it wants to adhere to, if any, and not be tossed into the clutches of some religion because the (grand)parents find it appropriate. Honestly, for your own sake as well -- do not let yourself be pressurised/blackmailed into something you don't want to do. Your parents have accepted both of you to be secular, why would it be so difficult to do the same with your kids?

zootroid

I'd leave the child get baptised, if you don't believe in it then it is only water being splashed over the baby's head. I also think the point about getting into good schools is very relevant.

In my own case, I'm an aetheist. My mother is very religious, and my father sometimes used to bring us to mass when we were kids if we had something on in the morning. Yet when we decided we didn't believe in it and no longer wanted to go, my father not only stopped bringing us, but stopped going himself. Turned out he was only bringing us to keep my mother happy. I don't hold any resentment to how they tried bring me up, and am quiet happy now with my beliefs (or lack of). I think you need to choose your battles. You will be rearing them, so its not as if you'll be bringing them to mass every week. So the child being in a church to receive a sacrament 3 or 4 times during its life isn't that big a deal in my opinion.

Also, if the grandparents were under the impression you weren't raising your kid as they would like to see, they could start trying to teach your kid all about religion as he/she grows, which could lead to friction with yourselves. At least if you give the illusion you are raising your child within the teachings of the church, this might not happen. As I said, you have to pick your battles, you can't win every arguement.

GalwayGunner

I sympathise with you on this one. Thanks to the church having a social stranglehold lasting centuries on this country this is one of the unfortunate side effects of our country and society eventually 'growing up' and moving past this influence.

Its a horribly awkward situation but if you and your girlfriend have decided that this is the way you want to rear your child then both sets of grandparents should respect the decision.

Despite my feelings towards the church though I genuinely believe that a religious influence is not necessarily a bad thing for a child. Personally I think its a good thing for a child to have someone bigger to look up to than just his/her parents. It gives comfort to them to know that there is a presence out there that they can rely on and get some sort of comfort from in times of hardship. As they grow up and their minds and personalities develop so that they can think for themselves and decide what they do/don't believe. After all - that's what you and your girlfriend did so why wouldn't your kids??

So to keep the peace I'd say let them be baptised, introduce them to religion, take advantage of the benefits it provides in Irish society (schools) but just don't force it down their throats ;-)

Overheal

GalwayGunner wrote: »

So to keep the peace I'd say let them be baptised, introduce them to religion, take advantage of the benefits it provides in Irish society (schools) but just don't force it down their throats ;-)

Conform to Oppression and ideological discrimination. Riiight.

Agent J

Agent J wrote: »

Sorry what? Please tell me that is an over simplification.
How far does that strech with regard to the grandparents?

Uhm Grandparents are the parents parents.
The same people without whom the parents wouldn't be around at all for.
The people who nurtured them,loved them and still do and always will.

Tact is required rather than a huge falling out over Nothing.

Should they have to approve the schools their children go to?
Or how about who they marry?

No.

They are grandparents and not parents. Consult, seek advice but the final decision is with the parents until the child is of age.

There is a world of difference between going to a mass on christmas and agreeing for your child to undergo initation into a religion in which you do not believe.

The actual baptism cermony is the parents agreeing to raise the child in the Catholic tradition which they would be lying.

Are you telling me that is a good idea?

Thats rubbish.
In this case they would not be lying,they would be changing their mind.
Simple as.

Theres a whole lot of unnecessary zealous overplay in what you and some others here are saying which is actually rather ironic.

Overheal

Cant they just Bless the child without actually baptising it?

My view is if they don't believe in the baptism,then whats the problem.

I look at it totally logically.
If my mum got totally upset about me not cutting her gardens grass,I'll go and cut it.

If you don't believe,then this is no different.

The benefit is,you don't have someone else you care about [your mum] going through a pain due to her beliefs.
Thats why Overheal,I think they should just get on with it,be as strong as they say they are,rise above what is often zealously [ironically] associated with atheism and mow that lawn for their mums.

They can send them to a protestant or educate together school if they want after that or opt out further in any other way but the huge big thing of no mowing the lawn is sorted.
It means nothing.It may even be a nuisance but its peace.It's that "big thing" that won't cause a heap of upset for someone else they love.

I wouldn't entertain any further suggestions on the education of the kids.

By the way,the parents must know that the op won't be advocating catholicism at this stage as I presume they know ye are atheists.
Therefore yes depending on how fervent the parents are,I would be expecting further words on "how wrong that is".
Thats the point where you can reasonably ignore them and make your case.

The Corinthian

Offer to baptise your child in the Anglican faith. Either they'll back down rather than see their child raised a heretic or, if nothing else, you'll more easily get into even better schools.

txt_mess

Ok speaking from experience on this one myself and my wife ( 3 years married Legal only marraige ) have a daughter 4 years old going to school this Septmeber. We are not religious ie not a defined religion we have our own beliefs but not enough in common with any one religion that we could call ourselves by that tag.

First thing first your the parents of the child you'll have lots of awkward decisions but at the end of the day you make the call for that child some will be tough and some will annoy and piss off other people but make your choice with the child in mind and you at least will have your heart and convictions on your side.

We had the grandmother thing and great grandmothers and aunties all asking us to baptise our child and offering to arrange it for us we said no for a couple of reasons. It not just a tick in the box it's a faith and out of respect for people in the faith and respect for your own beliefs I would not just do it to make someone happy. At the end of the day are you just going to get your child bapisted , communion , confirmation just because someone else wants it. Anyone of actual faith or religion shouldn't push that becuase they shouldn't want to see someone lie to their faith.

My guessing is people see the lack of defined faith as being a lack of beliefs I would say it's the opposite it is a considered and thought out set of beliefs that you adhere to just becasue it doesn't have a name doesn't make it any less important.

And another common misconception is the school thing , your child does not have to be a member of a faith to get in as anyone registering these days will tell you it's all about the pre-enrollment number and I would say get your child registered for every school you can as soon as possible. As it happens we have our daughter going to an educate together school where she is taught all religions even though we are not any of the named ones. To those that tell you we also had our child down early and got offered a place for the local catholic school but turned it down as the other school is closer and has afterschool care. For us it would have been easy explaining to our child that some people believe this religion but we don't but we wouldn't stop her listening and enjoying the stories really to any child under 12 , I would say religion is something your parents say.

Apart from that and I mean this in the nicest way possible but grow a big set of balls you'll have to do loads you don't like in the jouney of looking after your child from making a fool of yourself when needed to standing up and making decisions in their best interests , it ain't easy but it has to be done.

The Corinthian

Deleted User wrote: »

My view is if they don't believe in the baptism,then whats the problem.

The problem arises in that there is a misconception that Atheism is an absence of belief, when in reality it is a belief system in itself - you need only see how much evangelism is carried out by Atheists on the non-existence of God.

As such, conforming to something you fervently believe to be false would be a betrayal of that belief (likely combined with some deep rooted baggage that came from having religion pushed onto you in childhood).

So I can understand where they are coming from, even though not an Atheist myself.

Oh The Humanity

Hm, I despise the Catholic Church, the organisation because of their cover up of child abuse on such a huge scale over the years. Not dragging the thread off topic but for that reason I could never put their tainted mark on my child, I would feel it a huge insult and betrayal to all the children that had suffered at their hands over the years.

I see them as having nothing to do with God, but being simply a manmade machine of fear and oppression.

The same thing has come up in my family and while I respect any parents right to do what they want with their own kids I think upset or not Grandparents need to back off and realise they had their turn.

It doesn't give me pleasure to upset older people who want to be believers.
No but on the other hand myself and my partner would be far more upset putting the mark of such a revolting organisation on an innocent child.

So for that reason I would say no.

Also, at your young age its possible your parents think they have more say in things than they do. Stand firm in what you believe in.

If its only splashing a bit of water around then its no big deal for the Grandparents to forgo it, is it.

LegacyUser

I've no kids yet but expect to find myself in a similar situation eventually so have given it some thought. My parents are not the type to try and impose a decision on my bf and me but they will probably take a keen interest all right.

So one thing you could point out is that their religion only requires them to look after the state of their own souls. Examine the mote in your own eye before pointing out the plank in someone else's, and all that. If they are serious about their faith and not just sheep, a few choice quotes might strike home.

Another thing I've considered myself is that you could tell the grannies that since you will eventually be telling your child about religion in general and anything they wish to know about specific religions, you have no objection in them taking on the role of educators on all matters to do with their own religion. They can read the child bible stories and take the child to mass etc, and if they manage to get them interested, fair enough - it will still be the childs own decision later if they want to take it so seriously as to get baptised when they are older.

This would obviously all be done with constant reference back to yourself, so eg if the child later comes to you with "granny says I'll only go to heaven if I join her church" you would be ready to come down hard on anything manipulative like that from the granny - and also have a discussion ready for the child along the lines of "well granny thinks that, but there are other people who go to other churches and they're not worried, and there are also people like mammy and me who don't go to any church and we're not worried either".

Another thing to point out to the grannies is the number of people in the history of the church who had converted as adults - saints and the like. Tell them they should respect the fact that the god they believe in moves in mysterious ways and chooses his own time to reveal himself to any given individual (allegedly).

TPD

You can be baptised at any age, but you can't be un-baptised. Don't do it now, and when the kid's older, explain different religions to them and let them decide if theyd like to join one.

Overheal

Teach them what you want them to know. Like you did with your parents, despite their best efforts, you will end up making your own choices anyway. More important than anything teach them not to bow to peer pressure, never to yield to bullying, and thats All that is going on here - you are being pressured and bullied into a decision you do not agree with. To make someone else happy? To circumvent blatant discrimination?

Teach your children about Integrity. Not Atheism. Not Catholicism.

iguana

Deleted User wrote: »

My view is if they don't believe in the baptism,then whats the problem.

When it comes to trying to influence law in the country the church uses baptism figures as their membership numbers. This means that the church gets to reasonably claim that a far, far higher amount of the population are part of their congregation. Because of this they get to exert much more political pressure on the country than their genuine membership reflects.

Thousands upon thousands of non-believers have baptised their children in the last decade entirely to please their parents and get their children into schools. Think about it, if they had not done this the government would have had no choice but to address the way schools in this country are run and allowed current new parents the religious freedom the school system currently prevents.

It's very easy to say, "if it means nothing to you what is the harm." The harm is that it prevents this country from moving forward. It prevents those of other religions or no religions from being able to be true to themselves. It's hard to stand up for change, it's tough to be the generation that breaks the mold. But ask yourself; Do you want your child to be stuck with these same issues when she grows up? Or do you want her to have the freedom to make up their own mind and stick to their beliefs without having to compromise to get her children into a school or please her partner's parents?

Lastly if you do stick to your guns I suspect that in time your parents will eventually come around. My grandmother would have had a huge issue with her children living "in sin" but it never bothered her when I or any of my cousins did, as this became the norm. As more and more non-catholics refuse to baptise their children people who find it incomprehendable now will come to accept it as normal. You can also point out that the catholic church no longer not believes that non-baptised children are barred from heaven, so if anything terrible was to happen to your child their god would still welcome her with open arms.

Oh The Humanity

Oh The Humanity wrote: »

If its only splashing a bit of water around then its no big deal for the Grandparents to forgo it, is it.

I think the point was,it's only a water splash to those that don't believe.

But to a Mother it could be the world.

As for the child abuse brush.Don't be tarring everyone in an organisation with the same brush.

@ iguana The RC church do not have influence with politicians on account of the baptism numbers.
Thats an exaggeration.
Laws in this country are presently a reflection of who votes.


I vote for the corinthians solution incidently.

The bulk of this topic belongs I think in the humanities section as it's a class of a philosophical/lifestyle debate.

You can be baptised at any age, but you can't be un-baptised.

With respect thats not the case when all we are talking about are beliefs.Theres no such thing as baptism if you don't believe in it.
You can't undo therefore the undone so what you said is a fallacy in this context.

iguana

Deleted User wrote: »

@ iguana The RC church do not have influence with politicians on account of the baptism numbers.
Thats an exaggeration.
Laws in this country are presently a reflection of who votes.

No it most certainly isn't. A good friend of mine used to be the office manager of a large Irish diocesan office and she had first hand experience of the church using baptism figures to attempt to influence policy. She, not being Irish, was utterly gobsmacked at the level of influence the church wielded over state institutions. It caused her a great deal of personal debate as she is a big advocate of complete separation of church and state and she found the political aspect of her job abhorrent. Luckily for her it was a temporary position, covering maternity leave, as otherwise she felt she would have needed to quit.

Agent J

Deleted User wrote: »

Uhm Grandparents are the parents parents.
The same people without whom the parents wouldn't be around at all for.
The people who nurtured them,loved them and still do and always will.

None of that gives them the right to decide what they do with their child however.
They have to remember they are not the parents and do not have casting vote.

Deleted User wrote: »

Tact is required rather than a huge falling out over Nothing.

Its not nothing though. Parents disagree with grandparents. Grandparents dig heels in on something which ulitmately isnt up to them. Comparing it to cutting grass is a gross over simplification of the situation.

Deleted User wrote: »

No.
Thats rubbish.
In this case they would not be lying,they would be changing their mind.
Simple as.

Theres a whole lot of unnecessary zealous overplay in what you and some others here are saying which is actually rather ironic.

It is most certainly not rubbish. Someone has already beaten me to the punch on it but look up the actual words which are spoken during a baptism by the parents.

Leave the religion aspect out of it. You are advocating they Lie to their parents and to all the people present at the baptism when they say to agree to follow the catholic religion and its tenents when they have no intention of doing so. Their intent before, during and after the baptism would be as such so it is very much lying.

Leave the religion at the door and look at the integrity of the person who would do that.

They are not only doing that but they are making a mockery of baptism to people who actually believe in it.

allybhoy

Sigh..... this thread is fastly turning into something totally beyond the OP's dilemma and some of the people here have strayed too far from the christianity\aethisim forums. I myself am agnostic, but have to say some atheist's on here are more pushy than Jehovah's witnesses ffs.

OP Can I ask you a simple question. Where you and your OH baptised? Your an aethist now and have since renounced your religon, and thats grand. So why cant your child do the exact same thing as you when he\she grows up? I can understand people not wanting to push religon onto their children who couldnt. But at the same time do you not think that by not baptising your child you are also alienating them for the early, and dare I say most important years of their lives.

If they go to an RC primary school and are being thought religon are you going to frog march down to the school and insist that your child sits outside the class like a black sheep whilst the majority of the kids sit in the classroom. Are you going to deny your child the "day out" of communion and confirmation. Think back to your own schooldays, did you not really enjoy those days, the fuss, the clothes the money etc etc. I know I did and im glad i did them,despite the fact that the actual "message" behind them has long since been lost on me, and bar the odd wedding or funeral they were probably the last time I was inside a church

I remember when I was in primary there was a jewish kid in our class and he wished he was RC simply because he used to get bullied. Not because he believed in jesus or any of that crap, of course not, kids at that age havnt a clue about that stuff. It was simply because some other kids seen him as different and gave him a hard time over it. He would have given anything to have fitted in with the rest of the class, but he couldnt, kids used to make up all kinds of lies and songs about him and looking back now it was terrible, but that's life, and life is cruel. Hell, being a 7yr old is tough enough, without having to explain to bully's "well you see im not doing my communion because im actually an aethist"

nitrogen

When will we ever see a true secular Ireland if non-relgious people baptise their child so he/she can get into a good school...

I also would have to say no. Both your mothers will have to learn they have no right to force their religious beliefs on this child. Also if you both back down now, do you really think this is the last time both your parents will dictate their viewpoint on your child?

nitrogen

allybhoy wrote: »

Sigh..... this thread is fastly turning into something totally beyond the OP's dilemma and some of the people here have strayed too far from the christianity\aethisim forums. I myself am agnostic, but have to say some atheist's on here are more pushy than Jehovah's witnesses ffs.

I remember when I was in primary there was a jewish kid in our class and he wished he was RC simply because he used to get bullied. Not because he believed in jesus or any of that crap, of course not, kids at that age havnt a clue about that stuff. It was simply because some other kids seen him as different and gave him a hard time over it. He would have given anything to have fitted in with the rest of the class, but he couldnt, kids used to make up all kinds of lies and songs about him and looking back now it was terrible, but that's life, and life is cruel. Hell, being a 7yr old is tough enough, without having to explain to bully's "well you see im not doing my communion because im actually an aethist"

I really don't think the Atheists are being pushy and forcing a child to be called an Atheist. That is the child's decision later in life. Posters just don't want to see non-christian parents to be manipulated against their own wishes into forcing a child to be christian.

What if the OP's parents were Muslim or Jewish and wanted a circumcision to be performed on the child. Should they just go along with it, to fit it, to not cause trouble, because of the elder's beliefs or prejudices?

And because a Jewish child suffered racial abuse in an Irish school, would you much prefer every child was catholic, stick our heads in the sand and ignore the main problem.

O'Coonassa

nitrogen wrote: »

And because a Jewish child suffered racial abuse in an Irish school, you'd much prefer every child was catholic, stick our heads in the sand and ignore the main problem.

That it was actually the Romans who cruxified Jesus?

Seriously though where else apart from in parts of the third world do the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church run the education system?

We should kill off the religion that the Normans brought with them it has been all along an anti-Irish religion. We were not and we are not how it has made us and tried to make us. Very Wrong to keep feeding little babies into it IMO

Overheal

O'Coonassa wrote: »

That it was actually the Romans who cruxified Jesus?

I dont see how that has any bearing on the point he was trying to make.

O'Coonassa

Overheal wrote: »

I dont see how that has any bearing on the point he was trying to make.

It was a weak joke. Catholics used to burn Jews for being Christ Killers, I was implying that they were still being persecuted for it.

The Sweeper

OP, my mother is a practicing Catholic, and my father is agnostic.

Of the six people that are their three children and three children-in-law, we have:

One agnostic.
One lapsed catholic.
One muslim.
One protestent.
One pantheist.
One atheist.

There are three grandchildren, all unbaptised.

Our parents had to come to terms with our life choices, partner choices and religious choices long before any grandchildren appeared. Two of the three children are married, and we had civil ceremonies with no religious connection. The third is getting married later this year, also in a civil ceremony.

I am sure my mother would have liked it if at least one of us had shown some interest in the catholicism we were raised in, but she's never held it against us.

The biggest argument for me against baptising your child is precisely that you don't believe in it. I find the notion of "just a bit of water on the baby's head for peace sake" actually quite offensive. I do not belittle other people's belief systems. I do not participate in religious ceremonies that I don't believe in. I do not offer lip service to someone else's god.

What good is pretend belief to anybody? What use is empty faith?

I wouldn't go through the motions of someone else's religion with my child because I believe it's quite offensive to them to play pretend with something that is important to them. I wouldn't allow my child be indoctrinated in someone else's religion because if I am not willing to make a decision for my child myself, then I will not be allowing someone else to make that decision for me.

I never realised how strongly I felt about it until I had a massive row with my other half when he was asked to be a godparent in a catholic ceremony for a friend's child. The thought of him, without a screed of belief, announcing that he denounced Satan in a catholic church made me feel extremely uncomfortable - it's a harsh word, but the sheer hypocrisy of it offended me. Luckily I got the flu before the christening and didn't have to cause a fight by not going because the illness kept me home anyway.

Gadfly

For what it's worth I admire your stand on this. I had a friend in a similar situation an unfortunately for her she buckled under the pressure from her mother to have her grand-daughter baptized. It's one of those judgment (pardon pun) calls.